Jeb, Dinnerbone, Grum, and EvilSeph have been discussing the upcoming Mod API in detail! This is only a small look at the massive amount of information provided about the Mod API, so let's dive right in!
API Questions:
Will mods have the ability to modify text?
Mods can have config files that, when initialized, will be able to dynamically print text in a variety of ways.
Will mods like Optifine (which modify the engine directly) be supported?
The API will eliminate the need to write to the engine directly, allowing modifications that affect the game (as any mod will), without altering the game code itself. Among other things, this will greatly simplify mod installation.
Can vanilla block behavior be modified?
Yes.
Will there be official community resources (tutorials, forums, etc) for modders?
Yes.
How will mods be distributed by modders, and downloaded by players?
Players will be able to download mods from the game client itself.
Will the API be able to add new mobs to the game through mods?
Yes. Additionally, it will be possible to modify animated blocks (water, lava) as well as custom animated blocks.
Will the API be like Bukkit (an outside resource)?
No, the API will be integrated into the vanilla game, hopefully bypassing the need for exernal APIs.
Will client-only mods be supported by the API?
Not at this time, but as the biggest client-only modifications are already covered (texture packs, splash screen text etc), it didn't seem necessary.
Will the API remove the issue of mods being rendered inoperable when the game updates?
It is a target we want to hit for certain, but it won't really have that capability at launch, we don't believe.
Will mods need to be re-written from the ground up with the API's release?
While mods will need to be changed to accommodate the API, total overhauls shouldn't be necessary. Even if a mod requires an overhaul for the API, it would only be a one-time occurrance.
Will there be any sort of content filter?
By and large, the community will police its own mods as it does now, but we are working to put a system in place to prevent malicious mods from being distributed.
What can be modified in the game using the API?
Everything.
Can the physics be modded?
Yes.
Will the API be on the XBOX or Pocket Edition?
Not by us, but you can ask the developers of each game, respectively.
Minecraft Questions:
Will mods like Optifine be added to vanilla?
Something even better. Overall, the game engine is being simplified, taking most of the load off of the client, and having the server doing the heavy work, greatly improving SMP.
Smoothstone stairs are not planned.
No new mobs are planned.
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Check back for more updates soon, there is a LOT going on today!
Mods should be able to do everything they are able to do now, it is just that they will be contained in their own little .jar file. A lot of mods do this already, namely a lot of the Forge mods function this way. What they mean by this is that mods will not directly touch the main minecraft.jar.
This may be an outdated example as I haven't used the mod in a while, so Flowerchild please forgive me if I am wrong, but back in the day BetterThanWolves modified the minecraft jar file, specifically one part I remember being an issue with compatibility with other mods was that it modified the .class file for fire. So other mods that called on the fire class file would end up not working right since it was changed. What the API is aiming to do is that each mod can change those files, without actually touching them. So if one mod needs a class file to be reworked in a certain way, they provide their modified version, but if a second mod requires the original non-modified class file, the API is able to provide it to them.
I hope that is understandable. Basically it allows for mods to be a little more compatible by not running into any issues with parts being overwritten by other mods.
As for Tekkit or FTB or any mod packs in general. The systems they are bringing to the table will more or less make them no longer needed. I remember Kakermix saying once a while back that one of the reasons he started Technic was because MC lacked the vanilla systems that made modding easy, Tekkit was branch of that idea that server modding was even more of a nightmare, what with keeping both the server and clients up to date and making sure clients were not having any installation issues. With the API I can see Technic/Tekkit closing down, who knows though.
Thanks for clearing up the whole mod thing. as for tekkit, maybe mojang will collaberate with kakermix so that tekkit will be able to remain.
Thanks for clearing up the whole mod thing. as for tekkit, maybe mojang will collaberate with kakermix so that tekkit will be able to remain.
Doesn't really need to happen, vanilla is doing what Kakermix felt it was lacking. I don't want to put words in the guy's mouth, but I am pretty sure that if the Mojang is able to pull off how they are going to handle the mod repository, in game mod selection and automated installation, Kaker will close tekkit without a problem. The only reason I can see him running it after the fact is if the dev team does a poor job of implementing all of this.
After all, with the new system, a server admin only has to select the mods in any of the packs to recreate it and clients will automatically download those mods when they enter the server.
One thing I would like to do is user suggested "packs" though. Like a list of various things like: Adventure, Tech, etc. Where mods have been grouped together as a bundled installation kind of deal. Would be hard to manage though, can see thousands of packs being suggested in that case, maybe have the community vote various ones up and down and keep a top three for each category?
Oh. My. God. Yeeeaaaahhh! I can't wait. but I think I'll stick with FML until the API gets enough functionality for me to be happy with it when it comes out. ;3
My only question about the API is: Will it make modding easier for people (such as myself) who have little to no knowledge of Java?
No, it will still be Java and you'll still have to learn Java to use it ... probably. Ultimately it doesn't matter what the source code of the plugin is, as long as it is compiled to Java bytecode. There are a number of languages which do this and can call directly into Java code. Of course people may develop other ways to develop in other languages. But you'll kinda make yourself a second class citizen.
Java isn't that difficult of a language to learn. If you have experience in another language you could try reading Head First Java, though it's somewhat out of date - maybe others will have better reading suggestions.
Honestly, people really should not be getting into modding to make money, that is a stupid reason and is not a very smart way of making a living, modding started as a hobby and has always been just that, a hobby.
Atlassian has a full plugin system for their tools. Not only do they permit commercial plugins, they actively encourage it. Recently they made it possible to purchase 3rd party plugins right from within the tool's plugin management system. They also promote commercial plugins on their own blogs. They have open source plugins as well, but the commercial plugins are an important part of their ecosystem.
Eclipse also allows for commercial plugins. So that's two major pieces of software which argue against you.
Allowing authors to profit from their creations will allow plugins too ambitious for one person to create in their spare time. While we do have some very impressive plugins being developed, we would probably have even more if it were easier to profit.
Adfly is not a great way to profit from a plugin, but if it were possible for people to sell their plugin directly that wouldn't be a problem.
Anyway, if people can make a living from Youtube videos I'm sure someone will make a living from Minecraft plugins.
One thing I would like to do is user suggested "packs" though. Like a list of various things like: Adventure, Tech, etc. Where mods have been grouped together as a bundled installation kind of deal. Would be hard to manage though, can see thousands of packs being suggested in that case, maybe have the community vote various ones up and down and keep a top three for each category?
Should be very easy to create a "pack" if plugin dependencies function correctly (which the devs said would be supported). You just create a plugin - doesn't necessarily need any code - and list all the plugins you want in your "pack" as dependencies.
Then when someone chooses your "pack" plugin, the other plugins will be included as dependencies.
This will of course also give you the opportunity to add a bit of code to make the plugins work better together, if necessary.
Atlassian has a full plugin system for their tools. Not only do they permit commercial plugins, they actively encourage it. Recently they made it possible to purchase 3rd party plugins right from within the tool's plugin management system. They also promote commercial plugins on their own blogs. They have open source plugins as well, but the commercial plugins are an important part of their ecosystem.
Eclipse also allows for commercial plugins. So that's two major pieces of software which argue against you.
Allowing authors to profit from their creations will allow plugins too ambitious for one person to create in their spare time. While we do have some very impressive plugins being developed, we would probably have even more if it were easier to profit.
Adfly is not a great way to profit from a plugin, but if it were possible for people to sell their plugin directly that wouldn't be a problem.
Anyway, if people can make a living from Youtube videos I'm sure someone will make a living from Minecraft plugins.
Yes, but what Atlassian and Eclipse provide is drastically different from making a modification to a video game, you really cannot use that as an example, it would have to be something along the lines of "Video Company allows mod developers of Game to sell their modifications", not "Developers of an application tool allow people to sell products made with tool".
I will also say right now that youtube payouts are a hell of a lot more than .004 cents per view.
Honestly, if modding went into purchase content direction, I think it would fall apart very quickly, it would also be incredibly hard and too much of a headache to try and determine how much each mod sells for. Does a mod as large as IC2 cost more than Rei's Minimap? Do you have to pay every time the mod updates? What happens if something like Thaumcraft where the mod is stopped being developed and TC2, then 3 comes out, do you have to pay for each version? What stops developers from gaming the system in that case by pulling a mod after various milestones from the repository and throwing up the shiny new "overhauled" version and force users to pay again (not saying this is what TC does at all, btw). What happens if you host a server using mods, do your clients then have to pay for each mod to join your server? How much do you price a mod for to begin with? What about people who bought MC as a budget title (it is, at it the current price point) and do not earn enough income to pay for mods that they've grown to love. I make only $6,500 a year with a monthly average expense of $500, I'm constantly working odd jobs to make ends meet, I can't afford spending money easily. What about the massive younger audience who plays who do not have access to a credit card, times are hard and I am unsure you'd get parents paying out for mods. What kind of guarantee does the public now get, since we would then be customers, that mod developers will continue developing their mods and provide an up to date and bug free product? What happens when people heavily base a mod off another product and they are now making a profit off of it, sure you could argue fair use for a mod, but the above mentioned Adventure Time Mod could get into a ton of trouble for making money off of something that is not licensed. What about mods that are plugins for other mods? Customer downloads a plugin without realizing they need the core mod, do they get a refund? Does the plugin mod cost less than what it is based off? Does the core mod get a bit of money since it is a modification of their mod?
You see, there are a ton of reasons to not to go this away and I haven't even begun to get into the nightmare of a licensing issue with Mojang. Heck, what happens if you are selling your mod and then Mojang adds the mods functions into Vanilla, as they have now stated is their right. What happens, does your mod get pulled now, I doubt you will be getting royalties.
Your argument of "Allowing authors to profit from their creations will allow plugins too ambitious for one person to create in their spare time. While we do have some very impressive plugins being developed, we would probably have even more if it were easier to profit.", also falls a bit short. What happens, does the developer upload an unfinished mod to the repository, waits to earn profits, then builds on their? Again where is the customer guarantee. Recently a Skyrim mod attempted to do a kickstarter to get a mod started. Bethesda had it shut down, while they say it is cool for modders to receive donations, but to have people pay for a potential product is not right, and I totally agree with them.
There is a reason why modding in the gaming industry has developed the way it has for ten years, there is a reason why you look at all the major games that get modding done and developers are not allowed to sell them.
Either way, the Mojang team has made their decision on the matter, the best you can hope for is the option to link a paypal account to your mod repository page, such as they do on Nexus. And as someone who developed mods for Morrowind and understands where a lot of people are coming from, that really should be all that is expected. Modding started as a hobby, it remains a hobby, you want to be paid for coding, make something really cool and get hired by a company, again with Bethesda as an example (since the modding repository is very close to how Bethesda handles mods, sans the automated installation), Bethesda has hired a lot of people who make outstanding mods.
True true, if that is accurate its only delayed 2 years by then.
Though the API has been postponed to hell and back, I am REALLY happy that Notch wasn't the one who did it (Remember, Notch just wanted to give developers who paid and signed a new license access to the none obfuscated code) and I am glad that Jeb didn't do it when it was just him working by himself. As a larger team they will do a better job and I honestly do not think we would get all these neat extra features if it was Notch's way or Jeb by himself (way to much work for one guy). So there is a bright side to it all! :V
Honestly, if modding went into purchase content direction, I think it would fall apart very quickly, it would also be incredibly hard and too much of a headache to try and determine how much each mod sells for.
Pricing and upgrade terms would be the responsibility of the author. Keep in mind Mojang doesn't necessarily need to allow sales through their own repository - that is, they don't need to have their own marketplace. Though Atlassian and Eclipse have marketplaces you can install commercial plugins from other sources.
This should be lower priority for Mojang, but they should do what they can to allow it.
What happens if you host a server using mods, do your clients then have to pay for each mod to join your server?
Maybe. Probably depends. If the plugin is server-side only then of course the clients don't need to install the plugin at all. It would be nice to allow for server-side licenses as opposed to individual licenses but that's probably more difficult, so probably more of a long-term task.
What about people who bought MC as a budget title (it is, at it the current price point) and do not earn enough income to pay for mods that they've grown to love.
If they can't afford a plugin then they won't be able to play with it. Just like anything else in life.
Of course many plugin authors would probably prefer to keep their plugins free. It would be nice to make it a bit easier to have ad-supported distribution too. But of course plugin authors could also price their plugins very cheaply (say a buck or two).
What kind of guarantee does the public now get, since we would then be customers, that mod developers will continue developing their mods and provide an up to date and bug free product?
The same guarantee they get for every other piece of software they've bought. I bought Minecraft when it was in alpha, where was my guarantee that Notch wouldn't get bored or it wouldn't turn into a bug-ridden mess?
What happens when people heavily base a mod off another product and they are now making a profit off of it, sure you could argue fair use for a mod, but the above mentioned Adventure Time Mod could get into a ton of trouble for making money off of something that is not licensed. What about mods that are plugins for other mods? Customer downloads a plugin without realizing they need the core mod, do they get a refund? Does the plugin mod cost less than what it is based off? Does the core mod get a bit of money since it is a modification of their mod?
Well if your plugin depends on another plugin I guess it is a bit of a gray area, but as long as you are only going through the API you should be OK. Of course you might not want to take the risk of the other plugin author suing you. Probably if you are developing commercial plugins you'll want to avoid depending on other people's plugins, just to avoid such potential problems.
As for plugin authors sharing profits I guess that would depend upon a marketplace being created and the terms of that marketplace.
You see, there are a ton of reasons to not to go this away and I haven't even begun to get into the nightmare of a licensing issue with Mojang. Heck, what happens if you are selling your mod and then Mojang adds the mods functions into Vanilla, as they have now stated is their right. What happens, does your mod get pulled now, I doubt you will be getting royalties.
There's not a single thing you mentioned which would not apply to Atlassian or Eclipse.
I'm not even arguing that Mojang themselves needs to run a marketplace. I'd just like them to make it easy for others to run a marketplace (or even for there to be various marketplaces).
Recently a Skyrim mod attempted to do a kickstarter to get a mod started. Bethesda had it shut down, while they say it is cool for modders to receive donations, but to have people pay for a potential product is not right, and I totally agree with them.
As far as I know Skyrim doesn't have an official API and these modders were violating Bethesda's copyrights. In fact, existing Minecraft mods violate Mojang's copyrights, they just look the other way.
An official plugin API is an entirely different landscape. Plugins written for the official API will not violate Mojang's copyrights, since they won't need to modify Mojang's code.
Either way, the Mojang team has made their decision on the matter ...
... and of course they would never be open to reconsidering the matter?
Again, Mojang doesn't necessarily need to run a marketplace themselves. No matter what, I can charge money for my plugin - I just won't necessarily be able to host it in Mojang's repository. If Mojang supported other repositories it would make things easier.
Of course Mojang might try to write their license in such a way as to prohibit people from charging money for their plugins, and whether or not they have the legal authority to do so it's unlikely a plugin author would want to fight that battle. But hopefully they won't do anything so foolish.
Of course Mojang might try to write their license in such a way as to prohibit people from charging money for their plugins, and whether or not they have the legal authority to do so it's unlikely a plugin author would want to fight that battle. But hopefully they won't do anything so foolish.
A few things.
First you are horribly confusing modding a video game with development software.
What Atlassian and Eclipse provide are tools for people to write their own products and software. It has nothing to do with editing an existing product. I'm unsure why you cannot get your head over this idea, but your example is fundamentally broken. Maybe it is because of the API? That is not a tool to write your own product, but to help people modify Mojang's product. Completely different.
While the current license does allow people to sell their mods, it would be a bad decision, for as you said, modding right now is in a grey area where it is technically illegal to even distribute mods. To that end Mojang has said at the API panel that they are having their lawyers right up a new license agreement. They have stated that developers can make money off of ads on privately owned web pages and through you tube channel pay outs. I would like to see someone try to contest Mojang on this as it is something you agreed to (or will agree to in the future).
They have stated that they are open to paypal links on mod pages under the repository.
If you really want to charge people for your mod, then I think you will be the first to do so, enjoy hosting your mod privately in an inconvenient manner to access if that is the case. I also hope you fair well for the developers who decide that paying for your mod is a silly idea and remake it using their own code and ship it for free, as Mojang has announced at the API panel that ideas are not uniquely owned by mod developers. Your code and your textures are up for "protection", but anyone can re implement what you decide to do.
If you really want to be paid for coding so bad, then get hired by a company that develops games or do what a great number of coders have done and start developing your own game. As you said, people are willing to pay for a product that might not even come to being, so you should be fine. Implying, however, that you are entitled for monetary compensation for something that is not a job, is silly.
Honestly though, this discussion shouldn't even be in this thread. This is about the API, if you want to cry about charging people for your modification to an existing product, do it elsewhere. :/
First you are horribly confusing modding a video game with development software. What Atlassian and Eclipse provide are tools for people to write their own products and software. It has nothing to do with editing an existing product. I'm unsure why you cannot get your head over this idea, but your example is fundamentally broken. Maybe it is because of the API? That is not a tool to write your own product, but to help people modify Mojang's product. Completely different.
Atlassian sells products. They chose to produce an API by which others could write plugins for their products, and they chose to embrace commercial development of plugins (as well as free development). Perhaps you could explain some way in which its actually different?
Eclipse is different, but I still think it's an interesting illustration of how commercial plugins can become a valuable part of an ecosystem. In the case of Eclipse it is particularly interesting because the platform itself is open source, yet has no problem embracing commercial software.
They have stated that they are open to paypal links on mod pages under the repository.
Actually, they stated you could have a link to your website, and you would be free to point this link directly to some donation page if you chose. You cannot force people to pay for your plugin if you make it available in Mojang's central repository. (Well, maybe you could if you could build some license system into the plugin.)
On the other hand, you can always force people to pay for your plugin by having them download it directly. Which isn't that much of a problem if you're only distributing a single plugin. But if you're writing a complex mod it might be built from dozens of plugins. You'll want to make it easy for users to download and install them all, as well as receive updates.
To enable the latter case, Mojang would need to support resolving plugins from 3rd party repositories, as well as authentication to those repositories. Which shouldn't be that difficult (if they use an existing plugin system it would probably already be supported).
Mojang should support 3rd party repositories anyway. Plugin authors will want to be able to make development snapshots easily available without having to push it to the central repository.
Creating a marketplace is a big step beyond that, which might be of benefit to Mojang but I would not argue it should be a priority.
If you really want to charge people for your mod, then I think you will be the first to do so, enjoy hosting your mod privately in an inconvenient manner to access if that is the case. ... This is about the API, if you want to cry about charging people for your modification to an existing product, do it elsewhere. :/
This is all about your own prejudices. You don't want people to be allowed to charge for their work. You've failed to provide any justification for that, however.
By the way, the reason no one charges for their mods is probably because the mods are technically illegal (as they are a violation of Mojang's copyrights), and Mojang might not look the other way if people started charging. Having an official API changes that. I expect the vast majority of plugins would remain free in any case.
Just to be clear, I'm not a mod author. I'm speaking as a Minecraft player and professional software developer who has no objection to people being paid for their work. If supporting commercial Minecraft plugins results in more high-quality plugins being available, sounds like a win to me.
I never really used to play Minecraft with any mods just for the sheer fact that I hate installing them, but that'll probably change once the API comes out. I can't wait for it!
Atlassian sells products. They chose to produce an API by which others could write plugins for their products, and they chose to embrace commercial development of plugins (as well as free development). Perhaps you could explain some way in which its actually different?
Eclipse is different, but I still think it's an interesting illustration of how commercial plugins can become a valuable part of an ecosystem. In the case of Eclipse it is particularly interesting because the platform itself is open source, yet has no problem embracing commercial software.
Actually, they stated you could have a link to your website, and you would be free to point this link directly to some donation page if you chose. You cannot force people to pay for your plugin if you make it available in Mojang's central repository. (Well, maybe you could if you could build some license system into the plugin.)
On the other hand, you can always force people to pay for your plugin by having them download it directly. Which isn't that much of a problem if you're only distributing a single plugin. But if you're writing a complex mod it might be built from dozens of plugins. You'll want to make it easy for users to download and install them all, as well as receive updates.
To enable the latter case, Mojang would need to support resolving plugins from 3rd party repositories, as well as authentication to those repositories. Which shouldn't be that difficult (if they use an existing plugin system it would probably already be supported).
Mojang should support 3rd party repositories anyway. Plugin authors will want to be able to make development snapshots easily available without having to push it to the central repository.
Creating a marketplace is a big step beyond that, which might be of benefit to Mojang but I would not argue it should be a priority.
This is all about your own prejudices. You don't want people to be allowed to charge for their work. You've failed to provide any justification for that, however.
By the way, the reason no one charges for their mods is probably because the mods are technically illegal (as they are a violation of Mojang's copyrights), and Mojang might not look the other way if people started charging. Having an official API changes that. I expect the vast majority of plugins would remain free in any case.
Just to be clear, I'm not a mod author. I'm speaking as a Minecraft player and professional software developer who has no objection to people being paid for their work. If supporting commercial Minecraft plugins results in more high-quality plugins being available, sounds like a win to me.
Again you are comparing apples to oranges. Give me an example in the gaming industry. I do not understand why you are trying to use Atlassian as an example of this, Atlassian sells:
-Jira: A project tracker that can be configured for tracking things like calendar issues or bugs.
-Confluence: A social networking tool that looks like a combination between twitter, a chat room and an email system.
-Clover: More or less a graphical organizer. Provides metrics.
Then they have a store and while they call them "add-ons" it is more, other products that work with what we sell.
These are all products aimed to help the developing strains of producing software products. These are not game modifications. This is not derivative work.
Give me a game studio that allows their modding community to sell their product, give me an example where modifications of a base game, a derivative work, were given open permission to sell their products and this was successful. I cannot think of anything extending back twenty years. This is why the rest of the major modding communities, the Bethesda community, the Blizzard Community, etc, do not allow plugins to be sold. I really do not think you have an understanding of the industry, especially after you comment about the legality of Mojang dictating what people are allowed to do with mods.
If you personally want to pay money to a mod author, then go ahead and donate to them, do not force the rest of us to do so, stop trying to change how every other modding community has handled for the past twenty years, something that at its heart is a HOBBY into something that is not productive for the player base.
Thanks for clearing up the whole mod thing. as for tekkit, maybe mojang will collaberate with kakermix so that tekkit will be able to remain.
Doesn't really need to happen, vanilla is doing what Kakermix felt it was lacking. I don't want to put words in the guy's mouth, but I am pretty sure that if the Mojang is able to pull off how they are going to handle the mod repository, in game mod selection and automated installation, Kaker will close tekkit without a problem. The only reason I can see him running it after the fact is if the dev team does a poor job of implementing all of this.
After all, with the new system, a server admin only has to select the mods in any of the packs to recreate it and clients will automatically download those mods when they enter the server.
One thing I would like to do is user suggested "packs" though. Like a list of various things like: Adventure, Tech, etc. Where mods have been grouped together as a bundled installation kind of deal. Would be hard to manage though, can see thousands of packs being suggested in that case, maybe have the community vote various ones up and down and keep a top three for each category?
But I'll have to see...
No, it will still be Java and you'll still have to learn Java to use it ... probably. Ultimately it doesn't matter what the source code of the plugin is, as long as it is compiled to Java bytecode. There are a number of languages which do this and can call directly into Java code. Of course people may develop other ways to develop in other languages. But you'll kinda make yourself a second class citizen.
Java isn't that difficult of a language to learn. If you have experience in another language you could try reading Head First Java, though it's somewhat out of date - maybe others will have better reading suggestions.
Atlassian has a full plugin system for their tools. Not only do they permit commercial plugins, they actively encourage it. Recently they made it possible to purchase 3rd party plugins right from within the tool's plugin management system. They also promote commercial plugins on their own blogs. They have open source plugins as well, but the commercial plugins are an important part of their ecosystem.
Eclipse also allows for commercial plugins. So that's two major pieces of software which argue against you.
Allowing authors to profit from their creations will allow plugins too ambitious for one person to create in their spare time. While we do have some very impressive plugins being developed, we would probably have even more if it were easier to profit.
Adfly is not a great way to profit from a plugin, but if it were possible for people to sell their plugin directly that wouldn't be a problem.
Anyway, if people can make a living from Youtube videos I'm sure someone will make a living from Minecraft plugins.
Should be very easy to create a "pack" if plugin dependencies function correctly (which the devs said would be supported). You just create a plugin - doesn't necessarily need any code - and list all the plugins you want in your "pack" as dependencies.
Then when someone chooses your "pack" plugin, the other plugins will be included as dependencies.
This will of course also give you the opportunity to add a bit of code to make the plugins work better together, if necessary.
Did you read it? It said mods will most likely not need to be rebuilt from scratch, although it is likely.
Yes, but what Atlassian and Eclipse provide is drastically different from making a modification to a video game, you really cannot use that as an example, it would have to be something along the lines of "Video Company allows mod developers of Game to sell their modifications", not "Developers of an application tool allow people to sell products made with tool".
I will also say right now that youtube payouts are a hell of a lot more than .004 cents per view.
Honestly, if modding went into purchase content direction, I think it would fall apart very quickly, it would also be incredibly hard and too much of a headache to try and determine how much each mod sells for. Does a mod as large as IC2 cost more than Rei's Minimap? Do you have to pay every time the mod updates? What happens if something like Thaumcraft where the mod is stopped being developed and TC2, then 3 comes out, do you have to pay for each version? What stops developers from gaming the system in that case by pulling a mod after various milestones from the repository and throwing up the shiny new "overhauled" version and force users to pay again (not saying this is what TC does at all, btw). What happens if you host a server using mods, do your clients then have to pay for each mod to join your server? How much do you price a mod for to begin with? What about people who bought MC as a budget title (it is, at it the current price point) and do not earn enough income to pay for mods that they've grown to love. I make only $6,500 a year with a monthly average expense of $500, I'm constantly working odd jobs to make ends meet, I can't afford spending money easily. What about the massive younger audience who plays who do not have access to a credit card, times are hard and I am unsure you'd get parents paying out for mods. What kind of guarantee does the public now get, since we would then be customers, that mod developers will continue developing their mods and provide an up to date and bug free product? What happens when people heavily base a mod off another product and they are now making a profit off of it, sure you could argue fair use for a mod, but the above mentioned Adventure Time Mod could get into a ton of trouble for making money off of something that is not licensed. What about mods that are plugins for other mods? Customer downloads a plugin without realizing they need the core mod, do they get a refund? Does the plugin mod cost less than what it is based off? Does the core mod get a bit of money since it is a modification of their mod?
You see, there are a ton of reasons to not to go this away and I haven't even begun to get into the nightmare of a licensing issue with Mojang. Heck, what happens if you are selling your mod and then Mojang adds the mods functions into Vanilla, as they have now stated is their right. What happens, does your mod get pulled now, I doubt you will be getting royalties.
Your argument of "Allowing authors to profit from their creations will allow plugins too ambitious for one person to create in their spare time. While we do have some very impressive plugins being developed, we would probably have even more if it were easier to profit.", also falls a bit short. What happens, does the developer upload an unfinished mod to the repository, waits to earn profits, then builds on their? Again where is the customer guarantee. Recently a Skyrim mod attempted to do a kickstarter to get a mod started. Bethesda had it shut down, while they say it is cool for modders to receive donations, but to have people pay for a potential product is not right, and I totally agree with them.
There is a reason why modding in the gaming industry has developed the way it has for ten years, there is a reason why you look at all the major games that get modding done and developers are not allowed to sell them.
Either way, the Mojang team has made their decision on the matter, the best you can hope for is the option to link a paypal account to your mod repository page, such as they do on Nexus. And as someone who developed mods for Morrowind and understands where a lot of people are coming from, that really should be all that is expected. Modding started as a hobby, it remains a hobby, you want to be paid for coding, make something really cool and get hired by a company, again with Bethesda as an example (since the modding repository is very close to how Bethesda handles mods, sans the automated installation), Bethesda has hired a lot of people who make outstanding mods.
Application Programming Interface.
Thanks EnzerBeLeo.
Though the API has been postponed to hell and back, I am REALLY happy that Notch wasn't the one who did it (Remember, Notch just wanted to give developers who paid and signed a new license access to the none obfuscated code) and I am glad that Jeb didn't do it when it was just him working by himself. As a larger team they will do a better job and I honestly do not think we would get all these neat extra features if it was Notch's way or Jeb by himself (way to much work for one guy). So there is a bright side to it all! :V
In what way are they drastically different?
So use methods that pay more.
Pricing and upgrade terms would be the responsibility of the author. Keep in mind Mojang doesn't necessarily need to allow sales through their own repository - that is, they don't need to have their own marketplace. Though Atlassian and Eclipse have marketplaces you can install commercial plugins from other sources.
This should be lower priority for Mojang, but they should do what they can to allow it.
Maybe. Probably depends. If the plugin is server-side only then of course the clients don't need to install the plugin at all. It would be nice to allow for server-side licenses as opposed to individual licenses but that's probably more difficult, so probably more of a long-term task.
If they can't afford a plugin then they won't be able to play with it. Just like anything else in life.
Of course many plugin authors would probably prefer to keep their plugins free. It would be nice to make it a bit easier to have ad-supported distribution too. But of course plugin authors could also price their plugins very cheaply (say a buck or two).
Again, this is really up to the plugin author.
The same guarantee they get for every other piece of software they've bought. I bought Minecraft when it was in alpha, where was my guarantee that Notch wouldn't get bored or it wouldn't turn into a bug-ridden mess?
Well if your plugin depends on another plugin I guess it is a bit of a gray area, but as long as you are only going through the API you should be OK. Of course you might not want to take the risk of the other plugin author suing you. Probably if you are developing commercial plugins you'll want to avoid depending on other people's plugins, just to avoid such potential problems.
As for plugin authors sharing profits I guess that would depend upon a marketplace being created and the terms of that marketplace.
There's not a single thing you mentioned which would not apply to Atlassian or Eclipse.
I'm not even arguing that Mojang themselves needs to run a marketplace. I'd just like them to make it easy for others to run a marketplace (or even for there to be various marketplaces).
As far as I know Skyrim doesn't have an official API and these modders were violating Bethesda's copyrights. In fact, existing Minecraft mods violate Mojang's copyrights, they just look the other way.
An official plugin API is an entirely different landscape. Plugins written for the official API will not violate Mojang's copyrights, since they won't need to modify Mojang's code.
... and of course they would never be open to reconsidering the matter?
Again, Mojang doesn't necessarily need to run a marketplace themselves. No matter what, I can charge money for my plugin - I just won't necessarily be able to host it in Mojang's repository. If Mojang supported other repositories it would make things easier.
Of course Mojang might try to write their license in such a way as to prohibit people from charging money for their plugins, and whether or not they have the legal authority to do so it's unlikely a plugin author would want to fight that battle. But hopefully they won't do anything so foolish.
A few things.
First you are horribly confusing modding a video game with development software.
What Atlassian and Eclipse provide are tools for people to write their own products and software. It has nothing to do with editing an existing product. I'm unsure why you cannot get your head over this idea, but your example is fundamentally broken. Maybe it is because of the API? That is not a tool to write your own product, but to help people modify Mojang's product. Completely different.
While the current license does allow people to sell their mods, it would be a bad decision, for as you said, modding right now is in a grey area where it is technically illegal to even distribute mods. To that end Mojang has said at the API panel that they are having their lawyers right up a new license agreement. They have stated that developers can make money off of ads on privately owned web pages and through you tube channel pay outs. I would like to see someone try to contest Mojang on this as it is something you agreed to (or will agree to in the future).
They have stated that they are open to paypal links on mod pages under the repository.
If you really want to charge people for your mod, then I think you will be the first to do so, enjoy hosting your mod privately in an inconvenient manner to access if that is the case. I also hope you fair well for the developers who decide that paying for your mod is a silly idea and remake it using their own code and ship it for free, as Mojang has announced at the API panel that ideas are not uniquely owned by mod developers. Your code and your textures are up for "protection", but anyone can re implement what you decide to do.
If you really want to be paid for coding so bad, then get hired by a company that develops games or do what a great number of coders have done and start developing your own game. As you said, people are willing to pay for a product that might not even come to being, so you should be fine. Implying, however, that you are entitled for monetary compensation for something that is not a job, is silly.
Honestly though, this discussion shouldn't even be in this thread. This is about the API, if you want to cry about charging people for your modification to an existing product, do it elsewhere. :/
(Modifications != Modrators)
Atlassian sells products. They chose to produce an API by which others could write plugins for their products, and they chose to embrace commercial development of plugins (as well as free development). Perhaps you could explain some way in which its actually different?
Eclipse is different, but I still think it's an interesting illustration of how commercial plugins can become a valuable part of an ecosystem. In the case of Eclipse it is particularly interesting because the platform itself is open source, yet has no problem embracing commercial software.
Actually, they stated you could have a link to your website, and you would be free to point this link directly to some donation page if you chose. You cannot force people to pay for your plugin if you make it available in Mojang's central repository. (Well, maybe you could if you could build some license system into the plugin.)
On the other hand, you can always force people to pay for your plugin by having them download it directly. Which isn't that much of a problem if you're only distributing a single plugin. But if you're writing a complex mod it might be built from dozens of plugins. You'll want to make it easy for users to download and install them all, as well as receive updates.
To enable the latter case, Mojang would need to support resolving plugins from 3rd party repositories, as well as authentication to those repositories. Which shouldn't be that difficult (if they use an existing plugin system it would probably already be supported).
Mojang should support 3rd party repositories anyway. Plugin authors will want to be able to make development snapshots easily available without having to push it to the central repository.
Creating a marketplace is a big step beyond that, which might be of benefit to Mojang but I would not argue it should be a priority.
This is all about your own prejudices. You don't want people to be allowed to charge for their work. You've failed to provide any justification for that, however.
By the way, the reason no one charges for their mods is probably because the mods are technically illegal (as they are a violation of Mojang's copyrights), and Mojang might not look the other way if people started charging. Having an official API changes that. I expect the vast majority of plugins would remain free in any case.
Just to be clear, I'm not a mod author. I'm speaking as a Minecraft player and professional software developer who has no objection to people being paid for their work. If supporting commercial Minecraft plugins results in more high-quality plugins being available, sounds like a win to me.
Again you are comparing apples to oranges. Give me an example in the gaming industry. I do not understand why you are trying to use Atlassian as an example of this, Atlassian sells:
-Jira: A project tracker that can be configured for tracking things like calendar issues or bugs.
-Confluence: A social networking tool that looks like a combination between twitter, a chat room and an email system.
-Stash: A manager for Git repositories.
-FishEye: Browse and search function for code.
-Crucible: Peer feedback system for code.
-Bamboo: Automated software building/testing/deploying.
-Clover: More or less a graphical organizer. Provides metrics.
Then they have a store and while they call them "add-ons" it is more, other products that work with what we sell.
These are all products aimed to help the developing strains of producing software products. These are not game modifications. This is not derivative work.
Give me a game studio that allows their modding community to sell their product, give me an example where modifications of a base game, a derivative work, were given open permission to sell their products and this was successful. I cannot think of anything extending back twenty years. This is why the rest of the major modding communities, the Bethesda community, the Blizzard Community, etc, do not allow plugins to be sold. I really do not think you have an understanding of the industry, especially after you comment about the legality of Mojang dictating what people are allowed to do with mods.
If you personally want to pay money to a mod author, then go ahead and donate to them, do not force the rest of us to do so, stop trying to change how every other modding community has handled for the past twenty years, something that at its heart is a HOBBY into something that is not productive for the player base.