• 56

    posted a message on The Official Gun Thread
    Just one.

    I have searched, and seen many firearm suggestions, but most of these are grouped along with things like "Airships and Trains", "Space Expansion", and "Tech Trees and Research" Those get a bit unreasonable, I feel, and gear the game towards a world of machines and invention that is some hybridization of medieval and steam-punk themes. I have seen comments saying that Notch has said "No" to guns...but sometimes a no can become a maybe! Even then, I have not been able to locate text of Notch himself saying "no".

    So consider this a respectful and plaintive appeal.
    And please, at least give it one read through.
    I wish to keep this a reasonable argument for the possible consideration of a single firearm, and nothing else.
    [This is mostly a suggestion towards infdev, and the directions it is taking]

    The Arquebus

    It is the predecessor to Muskets and came about in an era when vehicles were still only powered by the wind, or hauled strong and tamed beasts. When much of the world was disconnected or had yet to be explored. When man still had a respectful fear of the savage wilds. During the middle ages, which most of the items in Minecraft seem to be themed after (namely the plate mail).

    More to the point: all the necessary materials are already in the game.
    Wood
    Steel
    Fire (torches)
    Flint
    Black-powder

    The very presence of gunpowder/blackpowder in the game makes it entirely reasonable to consider firearms, even more so when you consider that T.N.T. is a craft item. However I also think the firearm should be reasonably low-tech, and should have drawbacks to balance its presence. Hence why I am suggesting the Arquebus.

    The Arquebus would be a powerful, but cumbersome weapon.
    It would only be able to fire one shot at a time; "loading" the arquebus would require you to place it in your personal craft space along with a single unit of gunpowder and a torch. The resulting item would be a loaded arquebus. Firing it obviously leaves you with an unloaded arquebus in the respective item slot. Thus, every time you wish to fire it, you must load it (and expend one gunpoweder and one torch). Firing it would also create a sizable puff of smoke, enough to momentarily block the view of the person firing the weapon (which could be terrible in a vital moment). It would also create a flash of light. Comparably, every other weapon would be an extremely stealthy and fast weapon.

    The placement of the arquebus in this game is not far-fetched either; allow me to use Christopher Columbus and his conquistadors as an example to outline where the Arquebus should stand: [from Wikipedia]

    "In their first contacts with native peoples, firearms and especially arquebuses were very formidable weapons due to the great impression on morale because of the noise, flash and smoke. Tactically, their effectiveness was limited due to the lengthy reload procedure. Logistically, the conqusitadores had difficulty maintaining the weapon with no access to , with its availability usually in the single digits for most Spanish parties. The weapons and armor of steel and iron proved to be much more effective militarily"

    The army mostly relied on soldiers in full-plate armor with swords and shields, but firearms still had a presence in the field against enemies armed with bows and arrows.

    Bows and arrows...
    Plate armor...
    Steel weapons...
    All of which Minecraft has.
    All of which Minecraft has including black-powder. I repeat this because it needs to be repeated.
    The arquebus can fit in so long as it is balanced for combat.

    It would likely be the most damaging weapon in the game, if not comparable to a diamond sword. It would also have accuracy superior to that of the bow and arrow, but this is reasonable considering:
    -Gunpowder is not something you can reliably harvest
    -The reloading is very inconvenient and makes you very vulnerable (you must be stationary to do it)
    -There is no way to hide your presence or position when firing.

    -The Arquebus would also have a limited number of uses before breaking (or before it needs repairing, if that comes around). I argue that the number of shots it provide would be the best value to address for balancing it; I imagine somewhere between ten and twenty shots would be reasonable.

    Here's a concept for the craft pattern.
    [gold] = Torch
    [iron] = Steel Billet
    :lol: = Wood

    [gold] [iron] [iron]
    [iron] :wood: :wood:
    :wood: . . . .

    I would also argue that the Arquebus would be as technological as things get; no bombards, or anything that destructive. No grenades. Some people have suggested explosive arrows, and this weapon would be far less devastating then something of that nature.

    A piece of wood and metal tube packed with some black-powder.
    If this seems too unreasonable to consider for the game...well then...

    I move my suggestion to removing T.N.T. and black-powder from Minecraft, because neither fit with any of the other elements of the game. You may say that a gun doesn't fit in Minecraft, and I further support your argument in that T.N.T. has no place alongside Diamond plate mail. Yes, it fits with mining...if you're mining tunnels for railroads.

    And that is not just a snarky statement; I mean it earnestly.

    EDIT
    I figure that flint and steel in the firing spot (on the craft diagram) would be better suited to have a torch there.

    EDIT:
    MODERATOR NOTICE

    MODERATOR NOTE BELOW - PLEASE READ

    Okay, so here's the deal. I've merged a couple of pretty good gun threads together not only so some of you get a better idea of how good suggestions are made, but also so you can see that guns were at one point discussed critically and calmly.
    I'd like to see some more of that. I'm sure we all would.

    In the future, I would prefer that all guns or firearm-related suggestions appear in this thread, and this thread alone where it can be freely discussed, supported, or rejected.

    Just remember that objections are well noted, even by Notch. There's no need to beat this into people's heads any more than it has with another pile of "NO" posts. The fact of the matter is that guns are desired by some and they are perfectly well allowed to have a thread for that.
    I'll be editing the OP to add this lecture there as well.

    Behave yourselves. If you feel that you can't, then just move on to something else.


    Carry on, gentlemen.
    NOTE: Any additional gun threads are to be referred to this thread and reported for my attention. Two dozen threads for the same sort of device isn't necessary.
    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 1

    posted a message on Radio waves and Redstone banking
    Quote from Magnus9998 »
    Remember, people wants "minecraft" to stay in mid-medieval age.


    Which is why we have TnT, Record Players, Books, and the ability to cut Diamonds. :iapprove:
    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 6

    posted a message on The Official Gun Thread
    Quote from Qwill »
    I don't like the idea that a person can aim, shoot, and their target will be hit. Arrows give time for a player to evade. Even crossbows won't be UN-dodge-able. Guns are too overpowered. Even if it takes a long time to reload, and they do a lot of damage, you can still aim, fire from a good distance away, reload and fire again before your enemy even knows where you are.


    Well...the ease of aiming and better range really is the advantage of a gun.
    And regarding combat, the idea would be that the gun would emit enough smoke that the person being fired upon could determine the shooter's location before the next shot. If you were in terrain that afforded cover with hills and trees, you still stand a better chance to locate somebody with an arquebus than any other weapon.

    But I understand your standpoint; too much ranged capabilities and players will become stationary shooters.


    Quote from mrsquidon »
    Well I don't dislike the idea's of guns, though I believe they should be inaccurate as hell.
    This way we stay from people who want to play FPS's in MineCraft by being Snipers.
    Also the bullets shouldn't be able to go to far as well.


    Well the gun [i]is[/i] more powerful than the bow, so it would have a range advantage.
    But I see there is the same concern: [i]too[/i] much range and people will camp out with it.

    Quote from Cheeseyx »
    If it is 3-5 times as inaccurate as the bow is now, has equal range to the bow, takes one gunpowder per shot, and cannot kill anyone in good health or with good armor on, this is a very fair addition. What about ammo, though? I propose that you have to load each bullet (4 made from a 2x2 block of iron ingots) into the gun, as well as the gunpowder. That way each shot costs one iron and one gunpowder.

    Oh, and the gun should have a kickback, with the view moving upwards at a slight jerk, and the shot firing slightly after the kickback, adding to the inaccuracy. That way it is even more realistic and hard to aim.


    Actually, the beauty of jamming explosives in a metal tube is that you can fire almost anything out of it.
    Metal, stone, and even [i]glass[/i] can be shot out from it.

    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    So I've done a little testing to measure how far arrows fly, and approximately how much damage they do.
    Fired at 45º on a flat-plane, arrows fly approximately 55 tiles.
    With no armor, arrows deal 2 health-damage to a player.
    With steel plate, arrows deal 1 health-damage, and ½ armor-damage.

    With those attributes in mind...
    I'd say the effective range of the Arquebus would be 35 tiles.
    It can then fly an additional 35 tiles.
    So its range is 70 tiles total [it has 27% additional range compared with the bow and arrow].

    The Arquebus would do two and a half the damage of the bow and arrow while within its effective range.
    (5 health-damage to an unarmored player; 2.5 health-damage and 1.5 armor damage to a player in steel plate)

    Beyond its effective range, the Arquebus would do the [i]same[/i] damage as an arrow.
    After flying 70 tiles...well, I'd say either have it do half the damage of an arrow, or just disappear. I'd opt for the disappearing, personally.

    The Arquebus would have 100% accuracy.
    But bear with me before protesting this, and let's take a peek at our contestants side by side before passing judgment...

    Bow and Arrow . . . . . . . . . . . . .Attribute. . .. . . . . . . . . . Arquebus
    Unlimited . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Number of Uses. . .. . . . . . . . 10 - 20
    Sticks, Silk, Steel, Feathers . . . . . Materials. . . . . . . . . .Wood, Steel, Flint, Blackpowder, Sticks, Coal
    Yes/Sometimes . . . . . . . . .Ammo can be retrieved . . . . . . . . Never
    55 Tiles, plus free-fall. . . . . . . . . . Range . . . . . . . . . . . . .70 Tiles total
    2 Unarmored, 1 Armored . . . . . Health-Damage . . . . . . . .<35 tiles : 5 Unarmored, 2½ Armored
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >35 tiles : 2 Unarmored, 1 Armored
    Small "twang", arrow . . . . . . . Evidence of Shot. . . . . . .Smoke, light, explosive-sound
    None . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Reload Time. . . . . . . . . . 5 to 10 seconds
    As fast as you click . . . . . . . . . Rate of Fire. . . . . .1 round every 5 to 10 seconds

    [I find I can fire about 10 arrows in one second while holding the mouse normally]
    [I find that I can move approximately 7 tiles in 1 second]

    Let's say I am in a duel against my evil-self.
    I have the Arquebus, and my evil-twin has the bow and arrow.
    We are 30 tiles away from each other, jumping and juking everywhere to avoid fire.
    We are both unarmored.
    Say that my evil-self fires a volley of 10 at me and three of them hit. I take 6 damage.
    I return fire with the Arquebus, and luckily I hit. It does 5 damage.
    We're nearly even as far as the damage we've dealt and received.
    But guess who has to stand-still to fumble through the inventory to reload, and guess who can fire another 10 arrows in a [i]single[/i] second.
    Guess who can retrieve all the ammunition that missed and use it again [i]without[/i] having to manage their inventory.

    Let's say we're on a flat plane and I begin firing at my evil-twin as soon as they are at 70 tiles.
    The first shot hits, and deals 2 damage.
    I reload, and my evil twin moves continuously at 7 tiles/second, and is now 35 tiles away. They are well within the range to use their bow. But let's say for this duel they forgot their bow, and are charging me with their diamond ho.
    I fire another shot, and it does 5 damage. 2 shots from the arquebus, and they are not dead.
    I reload, but before I am finished my evil-self has already gotten to me.

    See what I'm hinting at?
    The Arquebus is [i]not[/i] a standalone weapon or direct-combat weapon. It is more of a defensive, fortification, or tactical-use type of weapon.

    Looking back on my own comparison, I may even move to say that the Arquebus could be considered to have unlimited uses given the difficulty in amassing black-powder, and how quickly the gun [i]burns[/i] through it.
    [That and I have some delusions of grandeur envisioning Dungeons & Levers with friends, and being the dude toting around the Arquebus during our adventures. :mrgreen: ]

    Okay, [i]now[/i] feel free to pass judgment. :laugh.gif:
    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 3

    posted a message on The Official Gun Thread
    Quote from CG62 »
    I'm cool with guns as long as they're not overpowered as hell.


    Indeed.
    I'd still think diamond swords would be the most damaging since diamond anything isn't exactly dime-a-dozen.
    Posted in: Suggestions
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