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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from Wanderer

    How do you eat an elephant?
    One byte at a time.


    I see this argument thrown quite frequently. Taking small steps as opposed to just taking the leap.

    The act of programming is, for all purposes, a constant exercise in taking small steps to solve a problem. What is however missing from your argument is that the act of programming is also an exercise in scheduling. Tasks do have a start and do get finished. In useful time. And when you see that there isn't even a single line of code written for the plugin API yet, you can argue over and over again about the fact they are working on code that will make it happen.

    For the past 4 years they have been eating that elephant one byte at a time. And that is exactly the problem. In case you have forgotten, someone out there, without direct access to the source code and without a monthly salary from Mojang, already ate your elephant one megabyte at a time. They gave us Forge, one step at a time.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from Frontrider

    Find something first. I still just can come with the example above. The coordinates wasn't integers with 16 being the whole block (now it is), and we have been told.
    As i said, find something. Search.


    Right. Your fudge tactics just won't work. You are -- it seems you have forgotten -- talking with actual intelligent people. Not the gullible you apparently deal with in a daily basis, if you expect that weak attempt of yours to work.

    There's nothing to search for, because there is nothing that has been told about those particular changes in relation to the Plugin API that will calm the doubts expressed in this thread. You are just essentially forging evidence by giving the false idea that we are not in possession of all the information. Let me tell you son, there's very little (and possibly nothing at all) you can tell us that we don't know already about Mojang work on Minecraft.

    So now, please, leave us adults to the conversation and you go try fool someone else in another neighborhood. Because at least in here, even those that may disagree do it with with respect and don't try to forge evidence to support their arguments.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from Frontrider

    Just a little hint, not mutch.
    We have been told, that the sizes on the modells are floats, not integers(after it was discovered, i think Grum, not sure)
    Fiddle around with the new snapshots, you may find something whats never told, tell them that you found this, they will tell you what you need to know.


    Explain what they will tell us that you know and no one in here seems to know.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on I don't really like the new 'regen at the cost of food' feature.
    Quote from KingzofDawn

    The new feature makes you have to eat better food in order to heal. Before, you could have a stack of melons to last you forever. Now different kind of food with higher saturation counts as better.


    Yes. The OP understands that. But he argues that this will further remove value from worse food types. I sort of see the problem, but I don't see a solution. This change doesn't introduce a new problem. It just confirms the already existing problem that better food makes other types of food obsolete. But I don't see how one could make them more interesting food sources.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from TheMasterCaver

    Or you can just forget about Forge; it only took me half an hour to convert a mod I made from 1.6.4 to 1.7.2, mainly just replacing references to blocks (e.g. Block.stone.blockID became Blocks.stone);


    This is not practical for many reasons. Many mods are heavily dependent on Forge or make large modifications to the game that would take considerable effort to inject directly in the game binaries or otherwise risk serious conflicts with other mods. Players would also have a much harder time installing their mods if they had to manually incorporate each mod into the minecraft binary.

    I'm not even sure why I am saying all of this. I thought it would be pretty obvious. Just because your mod is easy to port that doesn't mean this is suddenly how we should mod the game. Heck, it's because of the problems we had with direct modification of the code that Forge was born. And you suggest we go back to the mod equivalent of DLL hell? Hell, no!
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    The
    Quote from Kahr
    It's been a "work in progress" for four years now. Entire AAA games with their own mod toolkits have been developed in less time. How long are modders expected to wait before just giving up and moving on? No doubt many already have.


    I trust we haven't seen yet the full extent of the damage to the mod community brought in by 1.7.2. I know of at least two modders who have since moved on to other things and reveal little interest in updating their mods once Forge catches up to whatever current version (which is more likely to happen then any API from Mojang). It's just that modders, being people like everyone else, may them too lose their drive. If that already happens on a healthy mod support environment, we can only imagine what an extended period of no mod support can do.

    But it is also players that may become affected. Speaking for myself, I'm feeling close to the end of my interest in the game. Vanilla Minecraft just doesn't hold any interest to me. Since pretty much mid 2012, it's the modded game that has been giving me all the fun I ask of a game. I've been stuck on 1.6.4 for 3 months now, while reading and hearing all about the new additions to the game. I'm incapable of playing Thaumcraft, RailCraft, Twilight Forest, Ars Magica, on these new versions. And that slowly but steadily has been eroding my interest in the game.

    Meanwhile I have been developing two projects that are currently on hold and suffering from the fact I have lost much interest in the game. I have a total 3D model conversion of the John Smith Legacy texture pack for 3D artists or animators to use on SketchUp or Blender that I was planning to distribute on these forums. There's already 230 models done (5 weeks of real-time work involved) and I'm missing half of that to be finished. But I lack the drive to do it. I also have an half finished tutorial on efficient and organized strip mining, complete with home-made images and graphs that I don't see me interested in finishing anymore. I'm just losing interest in the game, because for 3 months now the game has crystallized.

    So, as a player and not a modder, I too have been spending most of my time elsewhere and slowly losing all interest in the game. Not for the lack of a Plugin API, but for the lack of mod support. So from my own experience I would guess that modders, but also players who have can't enjoy anymore the vanilla game, are at risk. This week I have yet to fire the game even once. And tomorrow is Sunday.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Yes. I think you overdid it. But that's the least important.

    Maybe I haven't been clear enough, model data files exist and are being used by the game. Prior to this point all model data was defined programatically within the class files. This is a real observable change in the code. This is the sort of change one would make if one was in fact working to implement an API. This isn't something they have said this is something they have done.


    What I would really like to understand is your argument. Please explain how you link this to actual work in the Plugin API. And before you reply (because you too seem guilty of not reading), explain your reasoning in the context of many other similar changes in the game for the past years that still didn't result to this date on a workable Plugin API. Also, in your reply take in mind that you are taking also to a 44 year old software engineer (we seem to share a similar background, so throw all the technical jargon you carry. I can take it). So, help me understand your argument, because for the life of me, I can't even start to comprehend how any of the recent changes to the game can constitute any sort of proof in light of Mojang past history on this matter. Many other so-called proofs have come and gone in the past 4 years. What makes this one so special?
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from The_Fool76
    The difference between Mod and Plugin is only pedantic if you don't understand what the distinction between them actually is [...] The point is that doing a Mod API is very different from doing a Plugin API in terms of what they have to do to the code to support it.


    You just don't seem to understand what people are trying to tell you. Let me try myself:

    A Plugin API is what Skyrim players have. A Plugin API is what Terraria players have. A Plugin API is what [your modable game here] players have. Some companies call it Construction Set (e.g. Morrowind), other companies call it World Editor (e.g. Warcraft III), other companies call it Toolset (e.g.Neverwinter Nights), other companies call it a different name per game. And one company calls it a Plugin API. But people everywhere call it mods being done by modders on a mod api.

    Unless we are discussing the Plugin API in a context where a clear distinction between Mod and Plugin must be made for a complete understanding of what is being said, insisting that we should say the word Plugin is about as pedantic as you can get. Won't score you any points at a party and your friends may actually not invite you to another.

    Is this still not clear to you?

    Quote from The_Fool76
    Things like the model files in the resource packs are proof that a Skyrim style mod system is being worked towards. It's a long process though as it requires a fairly substantial re-write of the game's internal bits.


    Those and other things exist for a long time. They are proof that there is a desire to develop a moddable game. Which no one here ever disagreed. They are proof that some steps were taken over the years that direction. Which no one ever disagreed either. They are not proof there is actual work being done. Actual palpable work. You are essentially telling me that because I put up some models of 3D tanks for my strategy game, that is proof I'm working on my strategy game. What you don't know is that I have yet to write a single line of code for that game.

    I don't know if you ever developed a mod api. But there is a whole lot more to show about it than models in a folder. And please don't tell us again they say they are changing the code to pave the way for the Plugin API. That's what they have been saying for 4 years! 4 years. That's what they have been saying since alpha, when the code was way much different than it is today. So, what the hell? You redid almost the whole game in these 4 years and you still didn't write the code you need for a Plugin API, despite saying all that time you were writing the code for a Plugin API?... I think that argument, you know, just doesn't work anymore.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from Crunchy Shadow
    Actually, Kyuubis Slave is right. You want them to release an API for a poorly optimized game, instead of optimizing it first and then releasing it. While it isn't fun waiting for so long for the API, the fact of the matter is that modders and players will benefit considerably more in the long run if Mojang does it right.


    Adding to the reply Zeno410 just gave, I will also say that there is a strong misconception that a Plugin API must be something that should be only developed after the code reaches some unspoken goal. This is simply not true. It makes no sense whatsoever in a programming language so deeply embedded in the Object Oriented Programming paradigm. Plugin APIs for these type of languages are comparatively straightforward to developed. There's a whole group of design patterns created exactly to handle code-to-code communication with the explicit goal of removing as much dependency as possible.

    Very few people ever develop Plugin APIs the way Mojang says they are doing it. Many games and a whole bunch of other software is released with ready-to-use plugin APIs despite the game or software code being still young and going to face years of changes and additions (along with entire DLCs or even full expansions). If Mojang is waiting for the moment they have the right codebase before they develop the plugin API, then we will definitely never see it. There will always be changes to the code that will affect the API. Tomorrow they will be doing the exact same type of code additions and changes they are doing today and the Plugin API would simply have to adapt to those code changes. This is how EVERYONE does Plugin APIs.

    The problem with Mojang and the things they are saying is that they aren't the only developers on the face of the earth who understand software development and practice it at a professional level, neither they are the only game developer coming up with a Plugin API. Heck, as Zeno says, they aren't even the only ones who have come up with a Minecraft plugin API!

    Quote from Chameleonred5
    Asking them directly with better questions than "when is it coming out" is supposed to get them to actually confirm/deny this topic's title question directly.


    Chameleonred5. I'm not sure you understand: This has been going on for 4 years, mate. 4 years! Not 3 months. There's so many different ways you can ask the same question during all that time. If Mojang still needs us to think of better ways to ask them about the Plugin API, then they would be the thickest people on this planet. Your argument is probably valid for some other type of discussion the likes of which I have been seeing on these forums. But you are insisting on something that simply has been done to death! And I can't think of any other way of letting you know it.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on The Minecraft Community is a Monster
    Quote from DiamondIngot

    even if this were true, that 7 year old needs to realize that not very many people know how to code and program
    well enough to make video games, and the fact that mojang has accomplished it for 6 different platforms (Pc,Mac, iOS, android, Playstation, and xbox) is amazing and he/she should be grateful for the amazing game they have


    The thing that I cannot understand -- the point that always troubles me the most -- is why gratitude immediately disqualifies any form of anger or passionate criticism. Why is that I must make such a leap as to refrain from being a passionate human being because for some reason I feel grateful?

    Even disregarding that the term the feeling of gratitude is something that I really never felt towards a company with which I made a business transaction, I can understand the word. I'm grateful about many things. My wife, my daughters, good friends, my sister immovable love for me, my deceased parents for having me brought to this life I am so attached to. I'm even grateful towards abstract things, like a superb sunset or a special moment. But what this feeling never ever did to me was to decapitate my ability to think for myself, to be a critic, to form opinions, to defend my opinion ferociously, to get angry when I feel the need to get angry, to refrain only when I feel the need to refrain, to feel, to express,... to be a human with all its flaws and all its emotional charge.

    And hopefully to not be lumped together with all the despicable human beings, by an illuminated white knight in a white horse on top of a moral pedestal from which he secretly always falls when people aren't looking (like criticizing other games with the same force they accuse others of doing here). Called a monster because I dare speak my word and not allow a simple video game to govern me with feelings of appreciation, debt or gratitude to the point of gutting my voice and my mind.

    It's also always rather confusing to me why some people still refuse to think before posting such diatribe against a gaming community made up of fellow players, but demand of that community restraint in the way they should address the developers of a game. It's probably some rule I have yet to learn. One that states that "You can attack the community you are a part of with the same type of venom you accuse that community of using against the developers of such or such game." Which is really just an elaborate way of saying you can do to others what you don't done to you.

    Whether these people have become completely lost to consumerism to the point of compromising their own personal interests in the name of idolatry, or they simply do not recognize that one can get angry at those they love... Whether these people actually believe they are being a moral standard, or instead actually think that one can take a whole for its parts, I don't know.

    What I do know is that this is my answer to you. And you can put it on the OP too. Although, despite all the pretense high morals you display, I'm pretty sure you won't. You, like the people you seem to criticize, aren't interested at all in different opinions. You and your OP are really no different from those you criticize. You just position yourself on the side you think is the good side, the righteous side, while committing murder like everyone else.

    Have a good day.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    The Mod API has been debated extensively on reddit and possibly hundreds of questions have been made about it on tweeter.

    These forums are them too a community of Minecraft players. Debates like these help cement opinions or behaviors which are then echoed on more "official" communities, sometimes even by readers who didn't participate in the debate. As I said, Mojang is fully aware of the criticism and the displeasure of some players concerning the delay of the Plugin API. This thread is just another one discussing this issue with fellow players.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from Chameleonred5

    Where are these suggestions going? Where are these complaints going? Are they going directly to everyone at Mojang? Are they being persistently and logically maintained? Or are they just being stuck on these forums, where we have no confirmation that Mojang actually looks at it?


    Yes. Most of what you see in these forums is either echoed on other media, or a result of discussions elsewhere. Mojang is well aware at both the criticism and the praise their game or they themselves get.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from LinonWater

    The "Plugin API" is just another another name for the "Mod API". Plugins and Mods are exactly the same thing, just different names.


    I agree. That distinction in terms of what the Plugin API will allow modders to do, is rather unimportant. Mods will most probably still be called mods (and modders still called modders), just like they are in thousands of other games offering similar APIs. Many people would be amused if they heard of the Ars Magica plugin for Minecraft. And would most definitely laugh if they learned it was done by the pluginator Mithion.

    The term plugin is being taken too seriously. And the distinction with the word mod is becoming a tad too pedantic. In the gaming industry, the word plugin has very little use. Regardless of what Mojang decided to call the API, there is no reason to make a distinction between both words. The serve the exact same purpose in an game industry with thousands of other games with similar APIs almost all understood as being modding APIs.

    Quote from PopuliMinistrum
    Just look at the names, mod is short for modification, it modifies. Plugins plug in to it, meaning they do not edit it directly.


    A mod modifies the look or behavior of the game. That's what a mod does. I'm still trying to understand where did people get this idea that the word modification should be applied to the game code.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from WilchHabos
    I wonder if Mojang themselves will be free of all the flak they are currently receiving when it gets to the point when they'll be more like modders.


    There's so much I can say in my criticism of Mojang stance regarding game modding. I can't fault them for breaking mods with every update when they aren't responsible for maintaining Forge. Neither I can blame them when modders who hack the code directly see their mod break with a new update, because they are in clear infringement of the game copyright.

    But while all this illustrate the importance of an official mod api, I can't see Mojang changing their development strategy with the purpose of becoming more, generally speaking, hack-friendly (if I understood your post correctly?). If they developed with a mind on the current status of minecraft modding they would not be able to do much in terms of code changes. And that's even worse than no mods support. The game code has to grow and better itself, not stagnate.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    The fun fact of your argument is that you ,as a normal player in the minecraft community, have no idea what it takes to implement a cohesive and intelligent API into minecraft, you have no idea how long they have been working on it, and you have no idea what all has been done for it in the back scenes.


    Probably I know more about it than you. Your ad hominens hurt me very little and I will match them with my own appeal to authority by letting you know that I'm a professional software engineer, 44 years old, and with 22 years of experience in professional software development, plus 8 years as an amateur. I started developing at the age of 16 for the Z80 processor, the processor used in the ZX Spectrum; a popular console in Europe in the 80s.

    You simply assume that just because you can't see every tiny step they make toward it that is doesn't exist and then you (or others on this forum/mainly using you as an example as your the one currently having this debate with me) make wild accusations like they are not working on it, or it will never come out


    They are founded accusations. This thread is full with the rationale behind them. You just refuse to acknowledge or probably haven't even read them. They are just not just things thrown out of our posterior bottom parts. That's not exactly what I call "wild accusations". But you have revealed already a complete lack of any common sense or even a desire to discuss this issue without insulting the people in this thread. So I'm not surprised seeing you using that expression.

    This thread has been quite a civil debate until YOU showed up, with many people agreeing and many people disagreeing. All of them respecting each other points of view. If one day you wish to grow up and have a conversation where you show a minimum of decency and respect for the people involved, I will gladly join in debate. But until that day, you are going to excuse me but I will ignore you from this moment on. Over and out.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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