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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from Charlie Brown

    It's his game, his plans, his choice. Next time you play a beta version of a game don't get your expectations running that fast. Whether the game is ruined or not depends on the person who is judging it. From all I heard, it's isn't that much of an ending, but still it doesn't really do harm to the game, as you can 1- avoid it, and 2- continue after it.


    ....then why have one? If you have no incentive to go towards an end that exists, and you can continue playing as if nothing happened after said "end", then it's *not and ending* and serves absolutely no purpose. And no, a developer going back on precedent and concepts that he's already established isn't subjective and a "to each his own" thing. Notch set minecraft up with a much longer history of being an open ended sandbox than any sort of objective RPG with story elements. It doesn't matter what he's said, because what he's *done* is made a game that's an open sandbox that's in a contained universe with no story or characters, and thrown in RPG elements and an "end" and what is proportionally the last minute. That's got nothing to do with opinion, that's what he's done. So once again, why throw in an ending that doesn't serve the purpose of an ending?
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from Mautaghae

    I think it was a fitting ending being that the place was called 'the end' it seems like the proper way to end minecraft because now there is a proper goal in minecraft, a goal in which you need to complete. get items, build wepons, survive and make your way to the strong hold to kill the dragon. once you kill the dragon dosn't mean the games has to end you can still play on and continue on your world that you are creating.


    This is a goal to who? I really don't care about some dragon that I have to use some crappy combat system to kill, and I know I'm not alone in that. Nothing is gained from killing the enderdragon, there's no story to begin with, so there's no objective or allusion saying "Btw, there's this dragon in a place called "the End", he's bad, you should kill him". I *do* know what the game was made for, and that was creation, and that's the (never ending) goal for nearly all people that play this game.

    And no, the Ending isn't some highbrow metaphor that people just aren't "getting", it's a crappy "By the way you're playing a creative game, so you should totally be creative in the 'game' that is life" cop out. People seriously need to stop pretending that just because they have poor literary prowess doesn't mean the writing and concepts in this crappy ending are just as mystic and "deep" to everyone else.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from WhiteRhinoPSO

    Complaining about things on The Internet is the cool thing to do nowadays. Everybody's got to ramp up their hatred of the smallest things to the nth degree to try and one-up everyone else. The "ending text" before the credits roll in Minecraft isn't all that bad. It's not ruining anyone's gameplay be existing. You can still craft things, you can still mine and you can still build stuff. The fact that it is skippable feels like it enforces my point that people are complaining for the sake of complaining. It's a facet of gameplay that has absolutely no impact on how you play, nor should it.


    Except for the couple of pages of sound reasoning from a storytelling and mechanic perspective, and how the whole "but it's optional" defense was dismissed pages ago without any rebuttal. If it's bad it's bad, why defend it? If you think it's good, defend it, if you think discussing it is pointless, why discuss it? And it is actually ruining people's experience, because it's forcing people into a specific perspective about the game, so that's a moot argument as well.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from NienteFantasia

    What you are asking is the game telling you it is infact a game.
    It does actually with one of the menu-messages : "It's a game!"


    .....so you're telling me that a splash screen message, that often has nothing to do with the game or is entirely non-sensical, is the logical basis for an allusion to an entire plot about the player thinking of the game as a self-contained universe in a meta-theatric sense?

    If you're willing to jump to such a flimsy conclusion then it honestly doesn't matter what was written in the ending, you'd make up justification for it that was never there.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from RaptorJesus01

    It has been reported that some victims of torture, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being tortured. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP.

    read this quote from the minecraft wiki then the ending cause im sure most of you haven't then it kinda makes sense, or it did to me.I thought the ending was fine i kinda liked it but it could use a lot of fixing still. If you don't like it , skip it. When you learn how to program games you can make whatever ending you want want but this is Notch's game and if he wants poems and what not then that's all unicorns and rainbows. Get over it


    Except the whole "just ignore it" assertion was thrown out a whole page ago and is a crappy defense for several reasons. Again, I really don't care what the ending is trying to get at, it's not justified within the game by any means and is bad storytelling. You can't tell me that a "wake up" ending is okay when it was never alluded, suggested, or hinted at in any way either the player or the character were "asleep" in any way prior to the said "wake up" ending.

    I honestly think Notch is just trying to be a hipster with his own game and say "Look, my game is more than some random little creation about picking blocks up and putting them back down while fending off zombies and skeletons, it's better than that!" when minecraft is and always will be at its best when the focus is on it being a little creation based on picking blocks up and putting them down elsewhere while fending off zombies and skeletons. Minecraft doesn't need RPG elements (story or mechanics) to be at its best.

    You know what would be awesome in place of all this RPG and ending nonsense? More block types with more interesting mechanics, less sucky combat, and more incentive to explore and/or band together with other players. All of those things would, in my opinion, make the game so much better than a tacked on story and an exp system centered around the most rudimentary combat I've seen in a game since the Atari.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from NienteFantasia

    But whathever, I'm not arguing with someone that won't see something THIS obvious. I mean... here's a list :
    "part of the game" "i like this player" "words on a screen" "he chooses to imagine many thing" "reality behind the screen" ... it's fckin filled with all these "hints"... and still .
    Ahah ok ok :biggrin.gif:


    (Also this was written by a novelist that has probably no relation to the game directly, doesn't know who the fck Herobrine is, nor Steve, but understands the general meaning of "sandbox game". It wasn't written by Notch.)


    Once again, there are no meta-theatric allusions in the game to justify a meta-theatric ending. Where in the game are the allusions to an outside world? There is no text other than item descriptions, and none of those contain any such allusions. All you listed were quotes purely from the ending, and as I already stated, the ending insists upon itself, it has no reason for being other than the reason it gives itself, which is bad storytelling. Show me where the game alludes to *anything* in the ending to justify its existence.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from Raxena

    Wake up, doctor Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes.

    Beginning of Half-Life 2, anyone?


    Except neither of those are the same situation as minecraft. All of those have external character development (while the character doesn't speak, they gain a personality through others interacting with them), they have plot, story progression, and an established universe. In the Zelda series, it's been established that it's the same story in different universes with some consistent mechanics and characters. In Half-Life, it was actually an interesting way to bridge the somewhat vague narrative of the antiquated HL1 into the largely new universe of HL2. In that essence it was used as more of a re-boot as a mechanic, a trope to bring the same character(s) back into a newer universe with a much more established story without having to give Freeman any internal character development.

    Plus, those are using some sort of "wake up" mechanic as a beginning, not an end. For Minecraft, the whole thing is tacked on, there's no justification for it and it seems to exist to just provide an excuse for Notch to sell his game as "deep" or some expression of vague meta-theatricality. If it has another purpose or intent, feel free to let me know, because right now I can't see it doing anything mechanically, nor does it create/fit any sort of narrative.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from NienteFantasia

    What would've been a good ending for Steve story ?
    Steve has no past, nobody knows where he is, why he's there, nor who he is. There is nothing and noone Steve can relate with. The whole Minecraft story can be summarized in "there's Steve and there's a world made of blocks".
    How can you end such a story ? You can't (Unless you make up something totally ridiculous based on fan fiction, like Herobrine).
    The player itself while playing chooses what are Steve goals, the game doesn't point its finger in any direction. You shape your world, you choose to go to the End and defeat the Enderdragon. Why ? Why does the game have an ending right there ?

    Because that was the player's goal, NOT Steve's.

    Those two entities "talking" (It could have been just one, but I guess it's two to avoid a 10min monologue) have obviously no relation with the world of Minecraft, which is described as a world in which you were creating and destroying, hunting or being hunted, the whole speech revolves around the player and those 2 ask themselves what did you create while being behind a screen. Also they use your fking name.
    And you can't see this being a meta-ending ?


    It might be because English isn't my language but I just can't see any argument besides this which is hardly an argument.

    But then again if you think that Steve was put in front of universe entities at the end of the game and told all that stuff yes, that would make no sense. Expect it isn't the case.



    The player has no predetermined goal, the player makes their own goals, so any sort of "end" even breaking the 4th wall to speak directly to the player (which is debatable as to whether or not this is even what they are doing) is dubious. Again, there's no allusion to any meta-theatricality in the game to set up a meta-ending. It comes from nowhere and since it has no bearing or weight, it is immediately dismissed as nothing. If it serves no purpose, and the game doesn't need an ending, it's worse to have one (even a good one) than to not.
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from NienteFantasia

    You didn't analize anything : you used that "satire" as an argument to prove your point, which is the whole second paragraph



    which is not an analysis : these are your conclusions, plain and simple. What are your points ? Which part of your analysis should I debate ? There's none. It's just you bashing the ending.

    It's obvious you don't get it : those 2 characters you want developed in the story don't belong to the minecraft universe, they have nothing to do with Steve's story.
    This ending isn't the ending of the game itself, rather the ending of the experience the player had with the game.
    And all that wall of text just tries to point out that there's a correlation between Steve shaping the world he's into, and you, Xalgoz, shaping your own world. It's like a meta-ending.

    For a game like Minecraft I don't see it being such and unfitting ending, unless you wanted something ala "Enderdragon death was merely a setback !" and all that jazz.



    Steve's story doesn't begin nor end in Minecraft. The game itself has no ending. I already said it. But since players usually give themselves a goal, and the hardest thing to do in the game is killing the enderdragon, this is where the "player's quest" ends, and thus this is why you need an ending.
    You are seeing this as a matrix-twist, which it isn't.

    And to be clear, I still don't know how I feel about the ending, since I got to it after 10 minutes of creative mode gameplay. Still, regardless me liking it or not, I give it the benefit of the doubt.


    Discussing it further with you would not be productive. I've explained at great length why I think the "ending" isn't any good in writing or mechanics, you've not really addressed any of that and dismiss the entire perspective for an acceptance that it's a meta-ending for the player themselves, like that's not a cop out or even needs to be there. The poll is doing well enough to at least shot people here aren't exactly stricken with it. So we're going to have to disagree, I say it's not good for the reasons I listed, and I'm really not convinced you've countered any of that or that your own position is even counter to mine or sound within itself.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from PyroFerret

    Th ending was a brilliant piece of writing, in my opinion. Minecraft doesn't need an ending, but it's twice as meaningful with one.


    How is the ending meaningful? What meaning does it add by saying "By the way, the plotless sandbox you were just playing with no character development was just a dream, kind of."? Explain your assertion, I have a really hard time seeing any meaning in it since the game itself doesn't have any meaning or story.

    Quote from Axman10

    60% of 400.. of 4,000,000.

    60% of 0.000000025% of total players that dislike it. So make that 0.000000015% of all players dislike the ending. They can't base a decision on that.

    And those figures aren't exaggerations.

    This just seems like another square sun vs circle sun argument. The ending is optional, you can skip it, and it isn't even the end. Don't like, don't read it. You are even able to change what the text says! All the ending does is add to the RPG/Linear part of Minecraft which is totally seperate from the creative part of Minecraft.

    This is the direction Mojang wants to go with Minecraft. They are the final deciding factor in everything, but, they have been very nice in forcing nothing upon you.

    Please note: I'm not arguing about the actually text in the credits/story. Personally, I didn't like it that much. But that's just me. I'm only making a point about having an "ending" with credits etc.


    For one, sample size, for two you're using false negatives to support your position. The entire population hasn't been polled, so you can't jump in and be a presumptive voice for that portion of the population and say "Well only a statistically irrelevant number of people dislike the ending". From the numbers we have, most people that *have been polled* don't like the ending, and it's not outlandish even in the field of statistics to note a small scale trend as important or possibly relevant on the large scale. Can we say what most people who play minecraft think? No, neither for the positive or the negative. Can we make assertions based on this poll? Yeah, we can say most people who care to be a part of the community here don't like the ending.

    The "optional content" concept doesn't hold water either, as the ending contradicts the precedent Mojang themselves have set up with the game. An ending contradicts a game that's mostly goofy non-sensical sandbox fun in an unrealistic universe that has no plot, no character development, no meta-theatrical allusions, and no sort of linear objective based progress. The ending isn't bad just because it's poorly written and mostly insistent upon itself, it's bad because it contradicts the entire premise of the game that has been set up thus far my Mojang themselves. From the main page: "Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine. At night monsters come out, make sure to build a shelter before that happens. It also has music by C418!". Is there any meta-theatricality in that? And characters named? Any premise other than sandbox with a bit of survival? And mention of extra-universal beings pulling strings behind a dimensional veil? No, it makes no damn sense at all *by Mojangs own definition and precedent as to what Minecraft is*.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from NienteFantasia

    So why do you take your time to analize Romeo and Juliet and trash instantly with that "ub3r l33t" description Julian Gough's ending ?
    The simple fact you think this piece of work tries to give reasoning to Minecraft makes me think you didn't even try to analize it in the first place. It's pretty obvious it's not related to the game at all, rather to the player playing the game.

    But anyway with my comparison I was just pointing out that the way you described Minecraft ending, with all those "leik" "dood" "..." could be used to describe and make look awful basically everything ever written.


    You're not debating, you're not countering any of the points I've made, your counter example missed the point of my original satire entire, all you're saying is "you just don't 'get' it". I analyzed it in the explanation of that paragraph of what I presented as some childish script, I explained why it has no substance, no impact, and no reason for existing, you've yet to provide a decent counter for that point. I didn't transcribe the ending into leet just to make it look bad, I did it to make the entire thought process behind its creation look bad, because it is.

    Why does minecraft need an ending? Why is attempting to cause a revelation in a character that hasn't had any development not as bad as I asserted? Why isn't it a cop out move to use the age old "you were just asleep" trope in lieu of an actual justified story and ending? Why isn't the whole "you're the universe and so are we" trope bad to use at the end of a game that has literally no non-sandbox objectives or any story development what so ever? These are most of my criticisms in question form and you've addressed exactly zero of them by writing Romeo and Juliet in the same script as I did. You just took the same gimmick I used to spark the rest of my criticisms, without addressing any of my criticisms, then you pretended like you made the same point I just did about a classic play without any actual criticisms.

    Answer those questions and we might have a debate, until then you're just dancing around the point and focusing on the script I used to lampoon the ending without addressing *any* of the criticisms that followed.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from NienteFantasia

    "So two families ... kay and they leik hate each ohter, like enemieslol, and there's one dood and a chick and they r in luv but they can't like go out together b cuz of their families, cuz of the hate ya know. But the dude wants to stay with this gurl and he sneak to her place but b cuz he's baddie at sneaking he get caught and now everyone is pissed to him. So this chick's brother is like "yo dude f*°koff" and he duels him and gets killed... So now everyone is even more pissed to the frst dood and they like send him away so he cant sneak anymore, n the lady is lolforced to marry another loser so she feing death with like a potion to escape, but the sneaky dude thinks she's really dead so he's leik "i'll suicide" and he does that, and then the chick wakes up and see all the mess and she's like "f$%k it" so she kills herself too !"

    Romeo and Juliet folks.


    Except the entire play was a satire on the social problem of uncaring nobles and the harm of the (then) current socio-political structure, and seeing as it was created back around the reign of Queen Elizabeth what unoriginal tropes the playwrights with Shakespere used were not worn out cop-outs of intellectually bankrupt writers. Also the entire story develops character through a series of events and interactions with motives and emotions to a culminating ending making said social commentary providing some external value for the play itself.

    As I already asserted, the "ending" has no character to interact with aside from the two nameless entities created on the spot without any justification, and there's no narrative to "end" and nothing to make any sort of intellectual commentary on. It's a fluff twist ending that has no plot in a modern literary/cinematic climate being compared to a story whose goal was social commentary that had all the elements of a "story" being disputed here, those being plot, character, character development, and motive. It's an awful comparison.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    Quote from LordNephets

    I love how Notch adds one simple little update to the game. And suddenly we have a full scale debate of Nihilism vs Existentialism, and the likes. It's absolutely remarkable.

    And for anyone saying it was poorly written, get your heads out of your ass.


    As for anyone saying it's well written, give me a reason instead of a childish personal attack. And you're trivializing this, this would be the same move as giving Gordon Freeman a voice or re-booting the entire Megaman series with "...But that was all a dream". It's poor storytelling, and a clashing contrast as to how the game has been seen and played up to this point.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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    posted a message on What do you think of the ending?
    The whole thing reeks of some kid writing a fanfic with the though process of:

    "dood omg what if the game leik....wasnt really a game and like.....its life but its like your life is a game and then the universe itself talks to u b cuz you like....won life u kno? and it tells you that theres this other level of leik.....consissiousness or whatever and u cant understand some of the stuff they say because you arent high enough level, and leik....they say that you are the universe too but leik you think ur not but you are because we see things with science and stuff but these two guys that arent guys that are the universe never change and they say that you dont either and then you wake up.....yeah....damn im deep!"

    ....it's not deep. It's an amalgamation of overdone literature tropes and bad movie twists in a text dump aimed toward a character that has had no internal or external character development to even have a reaction to "the universe" spontaneously speaking to it in a dialogue. The two "characters" that speak to you aren't even established in any format, they aren't alluded to, developed at all, nor is the nature of this "universe" alluded to in any manner for either the character (meaning the non-character you play) or you the player for any of what is... I guess "revealed" is the term, to have any sort of weight or cause any sort of revelation in either the character or player.

    This is a huge wall of text that is essentially trying to provide reasoning in minecraft, which doesn't need any reasoning. I'm getting tired of Notch trying to make minecraft into a "more legit" game than it started as, because it was "more legit" when it didn't have half-hearted RPG mechanics that push you into a really rudimentary unskilled combat system and an "ending" to a plot the game neither has nor needs to be good.
    Posted in: 1.0 Update Discussion
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