If he stops posting, we win. At least this little argument. And if he doesn't, well, he's just trollin'.
So, yeah, methods by which airships can be implemented: Collision Entity Physics System, and the addition of 3 or 4 or so new special blocks, for crafting, propulsion, control, and, maybe a lift block or the like. What do you think?
You know what airships are for me? A tumor. Not an air conditioner for my car. Or for the sake of going along with the analogy, they are a dent in the car. Does it affect the performance directly? No. Is it ****ing annoying to see that it is there? Yes it is. I don't see how that is too hard to understand. Just because you are fine with adding sparkle-ponies doesn't mean I am. Surely, I am not the only one that thinks this.
If anyone is trolling, it is you.
If you mean that you're the only one who thinks that the existence of airships is "****ing annoying", then yes.
Fun fact: You are being just as selfish as I am.
Wow, Bill was right, the official forum's full of assholes. Sometimes, I hate the internet, because if I start trolling as a newb, I'm gonna get the banhammer. But, you, trolling or not, won't, because you have seniority.
In any case, stfu and gtfo because you've stated your opinion (flimsily, if I may say so) too many times, past the point of thoughtful discussion.
It's TOTALLY okay to add in guns, super-TNT, 10 new ores (please, Notch?), superfood, and hell, even rainbow sparkle ponies. If someone wants that, and it's possible to implement, I see no reason why not. Just because something is there doesn't mean it has to be used by everyone. It's not a part of the core gameplay. The only things you HAVE to deal with to play the game are the walking and jumping controls, mobs appearing, and day and night. Maybe, just maybe, lava and water, also. Those are the core game mechanics. Those are the inescapables. You don't even have to mine, or craft. Those are features.
Sure, the shovel makes sense in terms of mining. And Collision Entities make sense in terms of crafting. We already have a boat. Why not some way to craft giant ships that can move through the water? And, if we can do that, why not some way to craft giant ships that can move through the air. The code to make a flying device is already working, in somebody's mod, so it's totally possible. With that said, I see no reason a collision system shouldn't be put in place, and with that system, the ability to craft moving objects from basic blocks, as well as a set of new ones that could theoretically be put in place in conjunction with the system.
Again, just because a gameplay FEATURE is there, doesn't mean you have to use it. It would, in no way, affect the CORE gameplay, of walking around and punching trees. So, as long as you want to put up with that, and the features that already exist, you'll be fine. You don't have to play with the collision entities, be them airships or not.
It's like, you get a car, and the car has air conditioning and power windows. Now, you could turn on the air conditioner while you drive, on a hot day, but air conditioners weren't originally in cars. They've actually broken the entire driving experience by even enclosing the cabin. So, you roll down your windows. You roll 'em down because you don't want to ruin your experience with the new air conditioner, but rather, the wind in your hair. You can still do what you want, because having retractable windows wasn't removed from the car, but air conditioning was added as a standard FEATURE. I happen to like my air conditioner. Just because you don't want an air conditioner, and a few others feel the same, should they not be manufactured in vehicles? I mean, you don't pay more for it, and you don't have to use it.
I most definitely agree there need to be larger and more elaborate oceans (Bodies of water, in general) and it upsets me that there's nothing I can do with the expanses, however small, of sea I encounter in the world. As far as ships go, I'd be happy if they were created through implementing a Collision Entity system in the physics engine of the game, allowing for almost any shape crafted with blocks to be a valid moving object. Of course, ships are invalid without bigger oceans, and bigger oceans are damn cool anyway.
I could very well compare this to the features in a car. Just because they're there, doesn't mean you need to use them. Halo was just the first expedient to that end to come to mind.
I still disagree. Adding elements doesn't change gameplay if they're not used by players who select not to use them. That was the point of my argument. Shovels speed up, greatly, the process of digging through dirt, sand, and gravel layers, nerfing the experience of having to push through the relatively useless bits, to get to the meat of the ground, say, iron, or coal, with the old means, of the pick. Since I don't use shovels, I don't suffer or benefit from any effect that added function may have. I choose not to use them, because the cost of the materials is greater than I feel like spending, for what I feel is a pointless gimmick, because it does exactly the same thing as something else, already in place. (Sound familiar?) You use it, and I don't really care. It's just a feature that's been implemented, seems to add to the game experience, and I don't use it.
Airships are a reward, in that, to make one, one would theoretically have to spend hours finding the right materials and piecing them together. To make a minecart, you get a few units of steel, and lay tracks made of I-don't-remember (I'll admit it, I use an inventory editor in single player, because I'm just messing around) in a singular path that you have to blaze on foot, and deal with the obstacles of walking before you can enjoy the reward of using a minecart. (Did I say minecarts weren't rewarding? I love jackin' around with minecarts)
On that note, Airships accomplish a few things minecarts can't. First off, when all their prerequisites are filled, they allow for aerial travel, and exploration. Then, they bring a viable excuse to expand the mob base to the skies. (We don't even have birds. Chickens just sit around and lay eggs!) They could potentially bring aerial combat to multiplayer, for those who choose. But, most importantly, to me, they would be an implementation of a Collision Entity system, which, I think, would improve the game's crafting note incredibly. It's a game that's half about mining, but half about crafting. It's a sandbox. We should be able to do whatever, and, well, we've gone past minimalism and reality already, may as well continue and let me build movable structures.
And, you know what, those WOULD be okay. In fact, there are already mods in place that do so. I don't use 'em, you don't use 'em, but somebody enjoys them. And that's what a game is about. The enjoyment of the player. In a sandbox game, like MC, enjoyment comes from being able to do whatever one pleases. My argument for airships isn't one for airships, but the system that makes them work. Adding that would give the players more freedom to fulfill their desires for free-roam gameplay. It's not necessarily the airships I'm advocating, but the idea that makes them work. The Collision Entity system, which makes a bound model a movable, physical object. It could be used to fabricate ships, airships, motorized castles, hell, even give some sort of fantasy effect to the floating islands around the world, because it would let them move in the wind.
The game is about doing what you want to do. If what you want to do is to dig a hole in the ground, find the materials to make an awesome pick that will let you dig another hole in the ground, that's perfectly fine by me. It's a game about mining. But if that's all I can do in the game, it gets stale. If that functionality remains, but the function to make moving entities out of what I've pulled out of my hole in the ground, is added, it gets stale a lot less quickly. You can keep digging holes in the ground, or whatever suits your fancy, and I can keep digging holes in the ground, in order to make my moving awesome thing, because that suits my fancy.
And, your minimalism argument went out the window with redstone. That, in itself, ruined any chance of that minimalist, or realist argument going anywhere.
EDIT: Okay, I'll give you that Notch is the only person who can say what the game is supposed to be. But, thus far, it's only presented itself as a sandbox game where the player can mine for materials, and craft them into objects and structures, as he pleases, so that's what I'd call it.
Adding airships adds a gameplay functionality that was missing, previously. It's like the Spartan Laser in Halo, compared to the Assault Rifle. They both do pretty much the same thing, but picking one over the other depends on your play style. Do you like long-range 1HK weapon that can't do much at close-range, or do you like CQC with your short-range gun that sucks at long-range? Just because Halo 3 had the Splaser, doesn't mean you had to use it. In fact, you spawned without it, and had to work to get it. And, even then, using it came at a cost. It used itself up fast, and getting new ammo was impossible without replacing the whole thing. And it always spawned in that one place that was just so hard to get to.
So, most people just run-and-gunned with their ARs, leaving a few people who liked to Splaser, and were good and patient enough to Splaser, to use it. The functionality could have easily been left out, but it being there added to the game. (Maybe Jetpacks are a more adequate argument?)
Just because a gameplay function exists, doesn't mean the player has to use it. There are shovels for digging dirt fast, but I still use a pick to dig dirt. YOU ARE BREAKING THE GAME WITH YOUR SHOVEL. MINING THROUGH A DIRT LAYER IS NOT REWARDING ANYMORE, BECAUSE OF YOU.
That brings me to my next point: resources. To make diamond armor, you need diamonds. To get diamonds, you need a steel pick. To make a steel pick, you need steel. To make steel, you need iron and coal. To get iron and coal, you need a rock pick. To make a rock pick, you need rock. To gather rock, you need a wood pick. To have a pick, you need wood. To have wood, you need to punch trees. And, all of this relies, still, on finding diamonds. The amount of time finding and mining resources to make an airship would make the airship a reward of long amounts of time spent playing. (Or haxing, but haxorz are going to hax anyway, and I say let them. It hurts nobody) Not everyone would have the patience for their floating badge of honor to reach fruition, and they, as well as anyone who doesn't like airships, would stay bound to the ground.
So, if you don't like airships, that's fine. More power to you, friend. If they're implemented, don't use them, and continue your single-player campaign, or, better, vow to shoot down all airships. Combat would be a fun addition to gameplay. But, don't say they shouldn't be implemented. Minecraft is a sandbox game, and we should be able to do damn well whatever we'd like. That's the whole point of the game. To mine for materials and use those materials to craft awesome stuff.
I have to disagree, actually, Stonehawk. The use of grid-based collision entities is extensive, in gaming. The first thing that comes to my mind is the Packer in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. It used an active collision engine to keep vehicles on its lift bed when the player drove. While it was flawed, and the collision system occasionally failed, various mods that added collision surfaces to the back of the bed prevented the primary cause of vehicles falling off. In the game, players could stand on any moving vehicle, and their rate of falling off would be calculated from 0, at a perfect standstill, to the point where they would fly off, based on turning, acceleration, speed, and player movement. That game is 6 or 7 years old.
Collision engines are not impossible, nor processor-heavy to build. The game can render interior and exterior spaces, simultaneously, already, and to make them move would be only slightly more complex than the moving cloud code (I believe clouds are randomly generated, in size and shape, so that hinges on that assumption), already in place, and the control system could be implemented through a block fixed to the collision entity, using the same setup as the boat (or the hoverboat mod, even).
I say, if Collision Entities are to be added to Minecraft (And they should be), they should use a full collision engine to model the movement of the entity, as well as any players, mobs, or movable objects within the entity's collision area.
EDIT: And, I know this is a total thread necro, but I felt it necessary to contribute my piece of knowledge, and this went kinda un-bumped for such a technical idea. Did I miss some other discussion thread for the topic?
That's a method of compressing programs down for installation on flash drives. Minecraft's already a small program that doesn't need to be installed to a fixed directory. I haven't had a chance to test just plopping MC on a flash drive and running it on some other PC, yet, but as soon as I do, I'll pass on the results. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't theoretically work.
I think the slider is a sound idea, and, if implemented, it could save a lot of people a lot of trouble. Also, I agree, the maximum draw distance needs to be increased. On my good PC, I can draw quickly at Far, while running a host of other programs, though on my low-end PC (Which, I am, unfortunately, relegated to use most of the time), I freeze when I'm running farther than Tiny.
The biggest limitation of redstone circuitry, among other things, currently, is the maximum draw distance. Try and make your machine too big, and the ends unload from RAM and your whole setup crashes.
I would like to see at least the slider implemented, though. That's a good idea that's already in place for other options, and would give greater flexibility to users.
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So, yeah, methods by which airships can be implemented: Collision Entity Physics System, and the addition of 3 or 4 or so new special blocks, for crafting, propulsion, control, and, maybe a lift block or the like. What do you think?
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Wow, Bill was right, the official forum's full of assholes. Sometimes, I hate the internet, because if I start trolling as a newb, I'm gonna get the banhammer. But, you, trolling or not, won't, because you have seniority.
In any case, stfu and gtfo because you've stated your opinion (flimsily, if I may say so) too many times, past the point of thoughtful discussion.
Oh, and, Twi, it's because I am Boxxy, you see!
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Sure, the shovel makes sense in terms of mining. And Collision Entities make sense in terms of crafting. We already have a boat. Why not some way to craft giant ships that can move through the water? And, if we can do that, why not some way to craft giant ships that can move through the air. The code to make a flying device is already working, in somebody's mod, so it's totally possible. With that said, I see no reason a collision system shouldn't be put in place, and with that system, the ability to craft moving objects from basic blocks, as well as a set of new ones that could theoretically be put in place in conjunction with the system.
Again, just because a gameplay FEATURE is there, doesn't mean you have to use it. It would, in no way, affect the CORE gameplay, of walking around and punching trees. So, as long as you want to put up with that, and the features that already exist, you'll be fine. You don't have to play with the collision entities, be them airships or not.
It's like, you get a car, and the car has air conditioning and power windows. Now, you could turn on the air conditioner while you drive, on a hot day, but air conditioners weren't originally in cars. They've actually broken the entire driving experience by even enclosing the cabin. So, you roll down your windows. You roll 'em down because you don't want to ruin your experience with the new air conditioner, but rather, the wind in your hair. You can still do what you want, because having retractable windows wasn't removed from the car, but air conditioning was added as a standard FEATURE. I happen to like my air conditioner. Just because you don't want an air conditioner, and a few others feel the same, should they not be manufactured in vehicles? I mean, you don't pay more for it, and you don't have to use it.
In closing, you's trollin'!
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This has my vote.
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I still disagree. Adding elements doesn't change gameplay if they're not used by players who select not to use them. That was the point of my argument. Shovels speed up, greatly, the process of digging through dirt, sand, and gravel layers, nerfing the experience of having to push through the relatively useless bits, to get to the meat of the ground, say, iron, or coal, with the old means, of the pick. Since I don't use shovels, I don't suffer or benefit from any effect that added function may have. I choose not to use them, because the cost of the materials is greater than I feel like spending, for what I feel is a pointless gimmick, because it does exactly the same thing as something else, already in place. (Sound familiar?) You use it, and I don't really care. It's just a feature that's been implemented, seems to add to the game experience, and I don't use it.
Airships are a reward, in that, to make one, one would theoretically have to spend hours finding the right materials and piecing them together. To make a minecart, you get a few units of steel, and lay tracks made of I-don't-remember (I'll admit it, I use an inventory editor in single player, because I'm just messing around) in a singular path that you have to blaze on foot, and deal with the obstacles of walking before you can enjoy the reward of using a minecart. (Did I say minecarts weren't rewarding? I love jackin' around with minecarts)
On that note, Airships accomplish a few things minecarts can't. First off, when all their prerequisites are filled, they allow for aerial travel, and exploration. Then, they bring a viable excuse to expand the mob base to the skies. (We don't even have birds. Chickens just sit around and lay eggs!) They could potentially bring aerial combat to multiplayer, for those who choose. But, most importantly, to me, they would be an implementation of a Collision Entity system, which, I think, would improve the game's crafting note incredibly. It's a game that's half about mining, but half about crafting. It's a sandbox. We should be able to do whatever, and, well, we've gone past minimalism and reality already, may as well continue and let me build movable structures.
And, you know what, those WOULD be okay. In fact, there are already mods in place that do so. I don't use 'em, you don't use 'em, but somebody enjoys them. And that's what a game is about. The enjoyment of the player. In a sandbox game, like MC, enjoyment comes from being able to do whatever one pleases. My argument for airships isn't one for airships, but the system that makes them work. Adding that would give the players more freedom to fulfill their desires for free-roam gameplay. It's not necessarily the airships I'm advocating, but the idea that makes them work. The Collision Entity system, which makes a bound model a movable, physical object. It could be used to fabricate ships, airships, motorized castles, hell, even give some sort of fantasy effect to the floating islands around the world, because it would let them move in the wind.
The game is about doing what you want to do. If what you want to do is to dig a hole in the ground, find the materials to make an awesome pick that will let you dig another hole in the ground, that's perfectly fine by me. It's a game about mining. But if that's all I can do in the game, it gets stale. If that functionality remains, but the function to make moving entities out of what I've pulled out of my hole in the ground, is added, it gets stale a lot less quickly. You can keep digging holes in the ground, or whatever suits your fancy, and I can keep digging holes in the ground, in order to make my moving awesome thing, because that suits my fancy.
And, your minimalism argument went out the window with redstone. That, in itself, ruined any chance of that minimalist, or realist argument going anywhere.
EDIT: Okay, I'll give you that Notch is the only person who can say what the game is supposed to be. But, thus far, it's only presented itself as a sandbox game where the player can mine for materials, and craft them into objects and structures, as he pleases, so that's what I'd call it.
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So, most people just run-and-gunned with their ARs, leaving a few people who liked to Splaser, and were good and patient enough to Splaser, to use it. The functionality could have easily been left out, but it being there added to the game. (Maybe Jetpacks are a more adequate argument?)
Just because a gameplay function exists, doesn't mean the player has to use it. There are shovels for digging dirt fast, but I still use a pick to dig dirt. YOU ARE BREAKING THE GAME WITH YOUR SHOVEL. MINING THROUGH A DIRT LAYER IS NOT REWARDING ANYMORE, BECAUSE OF YOU.
That brings me to my next point: resources. To make diamond armor, you need diamonds. To get diamonds, you need a steel pick. To make a steel pick, you need steel. To make steel, you need iron and coal. To get iron and coal, you need a rock pick. To make a rock pick, you need rock. To gather rock, you need a wood pick. To have a pick, you need wood. To have wood, you need to punch trees. And, all of this relies, still, on finding diamonds. The amount of time finding and mining resources to make an airship would make the airship a reward of long amounts of time spent playing. (Or haxing, but haxorz are going to hax anyway, and I say let them. It hurts nobody) Not everyone would have the patience for their floating badge of honor to reach fruition, and they, as well as anyone who doesn't like airships, would stay bound to the ground.
So, if you don't like airships, that's fine. More power to you, friend. If they're implemented, don't use them, and continue your single-player campaign, or, better, vow to shoot down all airships. Combat would be a fun addition to gameplay. But, don't say they shouldn't be implemented. Minecraft is a sandbox game, and we should be able to do damn well whatever we'd like. That's the whole point of the game. To mine for materials and use those materials to craft awesome stuff.
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Collision engines are not impossible, nor processor-heavy to build. The game can render interior and exterior spaces, simultaneously, already, and to make them move would be only slightly more complex than the moving cloud code (I believe clouds are randomly generated, in size and shape, so that hinges on that assumption), already in place, and the control system could be implemented through a block fixed to the collision entity, using the same setup as the boat (or the hoverboat mod, even).
I say, if Collision Entities are to be added to Minecraft (And they should be), they should use a full collision engine to model the movement of the entity, as well as any players, mobs, or movable objects within the entity's collision area.
EDIT: And, I know this is a total thread necro, but I felt it necessary to contribute my piece of knowledge, and this went kinda un-bumped for such a technical idea. Did I miss some other discussion thread for the topic?
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The biggest limitation of redstone circuitry, among other things, currently, is the maximum draw distance. Try and make your machine too big, and the ends unload from RAM and your whole setup crashes.
I would like to see at least the slider implemented, though. That's a good idea that's already in place for other options, and would give greater flexibility to users.