Minecraft Forums

Quote from Hyur»

This thread is outdated. Pigs now drop more food than cows, and the leather drop rate has been adjusted.

Well I did come up with this idea two years ago, after all. Although you are wrong about the leather drop rate, it has not been adjusted. Cows still drop 0-2 leather.

Quote from Jeffryfisher»

Having just read all 18 pages...

All of this is great stuff. Other people in this thread have made various similar suggestions, but all together they paint a very convincing portrait of a better balancing solution than my initial suggestion. Tbh I was aware of the issue that simply making cows drop more leather wouldn't change the fact that you'd still have to find cows, but I decided to ignore that problem because I figured on survival worlds you'd spawn in or near the appropriate biome often enough (and the challenges caused by the deficiencies of living in different kinds of biomes is part of the game), and on servers finding the animals you need is generally as easy as asking someone where some are. This was also why my preferred suggested rate was set so high; I wanted players to be able to get the leather they needed even if they only found a few cows.

You are right, however, that setting back the progression to iron tech makes more sense. No matter how common we make leather, people are still going to forgo it in favor of iron because iron is just far too easy to acquire. I like the idea of requiring leather as a necessary step before iron (I especially love the idea of needing leather armor as a "base" on which to build iron, gold, or diamond armor), but only if it doesn't turn out as poorly as requiring leather as a necessary step toward enchanting did. But then, your second suggestion would fix that issue. Although personally, I think you didn't go far enough with that suggestion. Instead of a single leather-dropping species per biome, why not make all animals drop leather? After all, leather is simply tanned animal hide, and the type of animal doesn't particularly matter.

Personally, I love the idea that all animals would drop a generic "hide" item of some kind, which could then be broken down into leather sections, similar to the way bones are dropped from skeletons and then turned into bonemeal. You can't exchange it between "block form" and "ingot form" like you can with ores, but it still allows you to store much more of the stuff than you otherwise would be able to as long as you refrain from breaking it down before you need to. This would also make leather a resource nearly as common as wood, which was one of my original stated goals, and I think this would be it's proper place in the tech tree. it also wouldn't significantly increase the cost or slowness of leather as a resource, as you would be able to break it down in your inventory or at any crafting station. Perhaps large animals like cows and horses would drop multiple "hide" pieces, and small animals would drop less. This could be tied into the system described by your third suggestion.

EDIT: After two years, this thread is no longer an entirely accurate reflection of the current state of Minecraft. The basic problem I describe here, however, still very much persists. For more current and relevant discussion of this issue, you can skip directly to page 18.

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The basic ideas of this thread are as follows:

• Leather armor is not easy enough to acquire to balance out it's inferior statistics. Leather itself should be a commonplace early-game resource.

• Cows are unbalanced, in that they make pigs redundant and irrelevant by producing the same amount of identical food that pigs do in addition to other items that they don't.

• Both of these problems can be solved by a simple tweak to the cow's item drop rates.

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I don't know about all of you, but I've never used leather armor. I always found it to be easier to go right to iron armor; taking the time to pen in cows and breed them for leather would set me back quite a bit in game progression, and you rarely find nearby the 12-24 cows necessary to craft a full set of leather armor early enough in the game for it to be relevant for you to do so. I could better spend that time setting up a mining operation.

In relatively short order you can have enough iron for not only armor, but other essential items as well. Going directly for iron armor serves multiple goals simultaneously, whereas obtaining enough leather for armor is a task you have to go out of your way to accomplish and serves only that single goal to the exclusion of all others. Therefore, skipping over leather and going immediately for iron instead is the more efficient path to take, and the one most players will be most likely to follow. I have seen this first-hand in at least 90% of cases on all servers I've played on. This clearly doesn't make sense, as it puts the lowest tier armor in an unfortunate crossroads of being simultaneously less effective and more time-consuming to acquire.

Clearly, leather armor needs to be easier to obtain in order to balance it out and make it worthwhile for the player to spend time in the early game on it. So here is what I propose: make cows drop more leather, and less steak. When you think about it, cows and pigs are currently equal in terms of food value, but cows have an additional leather drop and are capable of producing milk. This makes them the clear choice for breeding, and makes pigs redundant and irrelevant. Why breed pigs when you can breed cows for the same resource cost and get much more payback for your efforts?

If, however, cows dropped primarily leather and only dropped a small amount of steak, it would give each animal clearly-defined roles and make both important to breed. And it would make the acquisition of leather for armor easier and give leather armor back it's rightful place as the cheap and commonplace first armor set players make.

Current Drop Rate:
0-2 leather and 1-3 steak
Even with the most improbable good fortune, under these rates you will need to kill a minimum of 12 cows to obtain a full set of leather armor, and potentially as many as 24 if you get only the minimum amount of leather from each cow you kill. But cows are capable of dropping no leather at all, which means that you might even need to kill more than 24 cows to obtain the leather needed for a full set of armor, with no theoretical maximum. This is absolutely ridiculous.

Conservative Suggested Rate:
2-4 leather and 0-1 steak
Under this rate, you would need to kill a minimum of 6 cows to craft a full set of leather armor, and as many as 12 maximum. These numbers are improved, but not quite as much as I would hope.

My Ideal Suggested Rate:
3-5 leather and either remove steak, or alter it or porkchops
With this rate the number of cows killed is now as low as 5 and as high as 8. This seems much more reasonable to me, as leather armor is primarily only relevant for a fairly small window of time in the early game, so you should obtain it as soon as possible. Either the steaks or the porkchops would be altered in terms of hunger value or saturation to make them no longer redundant and give each it's own place and use.

Pig item drop rates would remain unchanged in all scenarios.

An idea from a thread contributor that I very much support:

Quote from PatDay

4) Give leather new benefits - Make leather mechanically desirable Certainly not as much as diamond, but something people would consider using. I think the best option might be to include special non-combat enchantments only leather can get such as a Speed boost or Sneaking option (players are invisible to mobs past a certain distance while crouching). It would give people a reason to make a "work" outfit out of leather. This would seem to be only a benefit in my opinion and can't think of any drawbacks.

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Copy and paste this code into your signature to support this rebalancing effort:

[url=http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1448912-cows-pigs-and-the-problem-with-leather-armor/][img]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t116/Ric_Adbur/LeatherArmorBanner2-1.png[/img][/url]

Hmmm... it times out every time I or my brother try to log on.

I wish they'd stop it with the whole "keeping the new features secret" thing. Please just tell us what the new additions are in the snapshot announcement like you used to.

I liked the huge oceans, I just think that Mojang needed to do something with them to justify their existence. They should've added content to the ocean biomes that gave players a reason to travel out to sea and made it worthwhile for them to do so. People have certainly been asking for it for long enough. I hope they don't shrink the oceans too much.

Also, they had better not be getting rid of islands. I LOVE islands.

Quote from zanduh

well there you go a good amount of leather is needed for both saddles and horse armor

Also my 2 cents: Starting fresh on a new survival world i had full leather in the span of 20 minutes killing cows on in the fields. Within the hour my brother and i swapped it out for iron armor from our first caving. The same day we had diamon swords and helmets.

Resources aren't rare and weeping for underused lower-tier armor is silly

>I had a good run of luck, therefore no problem exists in all possible instances.

Good logic there, buddy. Unfortunately, you are incorrect. It's certainly possible to get enough leather early enough in the game for it to be relevant to do so, but it's more likely that you will not find enough cows early enough in the game to use for armor-making purposes, and even if you do, you are forced to either spend a good deal of time that could otherwise be spent on normal game progression on the sidetrack of penning and breeding cows, or you are forced to obliterate the herd entirely in order to get the armor in a reasonable amount of time. Let me put it in an easy-to-understand timeline form (follow the arrows):

'Normal' game progression
Get wood>Make pick>Get stone>Make pick>Get iron>Make iron tools/armor>Get gold/redstone/diamond,etc.

Game progression with the leather goal added
Get wood...........................................................................................................Make a pick...
V...........................................................................................................................^
Find cows>Build a pen>Coax cows into pen>Wait for enough cows to breed to make leather armor

Someone who got it to work should post some screenshots of carpets and how they work.

Quote from skgr

I think they should drop your "ideal suggested rate" but they should still drop normal amounts of steak. If you think about it cows did drop just enough steak for it to be a balanced food source. Leather does not equal food and food does not equal armour. So raising leather's drop rate and keeping the steak drop rate the same would be balanced in my opinion. (If porkchop drop rate is raised)

The point of my suggested changes is to solve two imbalancing issues with one fix; the scarcity of leather, and the redundancy of cows and pigs.

Quote from ThizBoss

I like the idea of the more leather drop rate, but I don't think that leather is hard to aquire. If you land in the plains than you find a BUNCH of cows. You can also have a farm for them. Leather armor is very weak, but since they added dyed armor I think that it is more useful for design, because the armor itself doesn't protect you that much at all and is very weak.

Yes, if you spawn in a plains biome you might find enough cows to make a suit of leather armor. But even then, you'll have to simply slaughter entire herds in order to get it in a semi-reasonable amount of time in the early game. If you want to do it in a sustainable way, without wasting all those cows, it'll take you a lot longer; you'll need to collect enough wood to pen them all in, then you'll need to grow wheat, which means you need to start a wheat farm before even beginning to work on your cattle ranch, you'll need to build the pen and actually drag each cow inside it, and then you'll have to breed/slaughter a minimum of 12 times and possibly more than 24 times until you have your first basic armor set - all of which assumes you'll even find enough cows in the first place, which doesn't happen that often.

On the other hand, you could just grab some wood, make a pick, collect some stone, make better tools, find a cave, and start mining iron. You'll get a better set of armor much quicker, and you'll be closer to finding other necessary materials as well.

My point with this thread is that leather armor isn't worth the trouble to which you currently need to go to acquire it.

Quote from PatDay

4) Give leather new benefits - Make leather mechanically desirable Certainly not as much as diamond, but something people would consider using. I think the best option might be to include special non-combat enchantments only leather can get such as a Speed boost or Sneaking option (players are invisible to mobs past a certain distance while crouching). It would give people a reason to make a "work" outfit out of leather. This would seem to be only a benefit in my opinion and can't think of any drawbacks.

This is a very good idea that I hadn't considered. Incentivizing people to use leather instead of iron or diamond would complete the goal of giving leather it's own useful place in the crafting tree, and making it the true 'light armor' with stealth and speed benefits would be an excellent way to accomplish that. I think I'll add your post to the OP.

For the love of whatever god(s) you believe in, underwater content needs to be the next update. It's so far overdue at this point it's not even remotely funny.

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Table of Contents:

Overview
Changes in how things work
Frequently Asked Questions
[WIP] The Cubic Chunks Mod!
Gallery
Supporting this suggestion
Special thanks

[spoiler=Tl:dr]Q: Won't this increase lag?
A: Absolutely not. The title of this suggestion and big red letters at the top of this post aren't lying. If you want to know how, then I suggest you actually read this post.

Q: Will this change terrain? Will this break existing worlds?
A: No. Terrain change is not necessary. Existing worlds can be converted fairly easily with a process described later in this post.

Q: How can sunlight or rain work with infinite vertical space?
A: I suggest you read Coping with sunlight, because it's too complex for a tl;dr.

Q: I have a different question but still don't feel like reading this post. What do I do?
A: Too bad, read the FAQ. I put way too much work into this for the entirety of it to be ignored.[/spoiler]

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Overview:

In Minecraft, the sky is the limit - literally. It doesn't matter how many thousands of blocks a player has traveled, or what dimension they're in, or even if they're playing in creative or survival, the highest they can ever build is up to a height of 256. Why is that? If Minecraft can have a world that's infinite in the north, in the south, in the east, and in the west, why can't that world be infinite up and down too?

In Minecraft's earliest days, in Classic and Indev, the world was not infinite in any direction. This was because the entire world needed to be generated at the same time, and the entire world needed to be simulated at the same time as well. This led to a conundrum - the bigger the world, the more it lagged.
Notch didn't like this. He knew his players liked to explore and build large creations, so he found a way to make the world truly infinite. When the Minecraft '' class='bbc'>Infdev came out, it brought with it truly infinite worlds. Suddenly, players could travel hundreds of thousands of blocks in any direction, and never encounter a barrier, or become too laggy.
The Infdev update brought about a very large change to Minecraft worlds to accomplish this feat. For the first time, instead every world being just a single huge piece, they were broken up into a two-dimensional grid of pieces, called chunks. Through breaking the world up into pieces, this 'chunk system' enabled infinite worlds by letting Minecraft create new pieces and simulate them only when it needs to.

Why does that not apply to the vertical axis? Because the type of 'chunk system' Minecraft uses right now is a linear one, which, by using only a two-dimensional grid to map out chunks, means that it is impossible for chunks to stack on top of one another, and by extension, meaning that a single chunk must cover the entire vertical space. This brings back the problem that the Infdev update was supposed to eradicate, now only with chunks, instead of an entire world; the bigger a chunk is, the more laggy it is. You can't just increase the height limit and make chunks taller, because it will become laggier, and laggier, and laggier to do it.
That's why, to fix this, Minecraft must change over to a cubic chunk system. Under this system, 16³ block chunks are aligned on a three-dimensional grid, completely eliminating maximum height as an aspect of lag.

The immediate benefits:
•Minecraft worlds become as virtually infinite vertically as they are horizontally: The absolute limit being Y = ±30,000,000.
•A large FPS increase: Alpha testers report an FPS increase of 100~200%.
•Increase in running capability: Computers running Minecraft on Tiny render distance will handle only 30% the blocks they do now.

The possible features:
•Spherical render/load distance: Reduce handled blocks by up to 30% by cutting corners made of unneeded chunks.
•Server chunk occlusion/exclusion: Reduce bandwidth usage and defeat hackers by only sending data for visible chunks.
•Three-dimensional biomes: Save biome data per chunk rather than per block column, create volcanoes with magma chambers, underground rivers, tropical skylands floating over icy taigas, and more.

The disadvantages:
•Unloaded gravity-pause: Falling non-player entities and fluids will be forced to pause their fall if they reach unloaded chunks, but will resume falling when those chunks are loaded.
•Slow falling-pause: Players with slower computers and smaller render distances will have falling occasionally paused as they fall into unloaded chunks, until new chunks can be loaded.

The problems:
•Current sunlight and rain calculation methods cannot work with infinite vertical space: The solution to this is described here.
•Current BiomeDecorator cannot work with multiple vertical chunks simultaneously: The BiomeDecorator code must be altered to function correctly with this, or removed.
•Current cave generation method is executed an extra time for each vertical chunk created simultaneously, leading to lag spikes on world generation: Cave generation's method must be altered to suit this system more.
•Current grass/dirt generation algorithm forces additional chunk requests when chunks are loaded, causing chunks to load slower than they should: This algorithm must be replaced with something else.

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Changes in how things work:

Obviously, the implementation of this new chunk system will change quite a few things. These changes are mostly either necessary or in the interest of increased efficiency. Such changes are categorized and explained below.

How worlds will be stored:
[spoiler]How the current storage works, and what changes:
Interestingly enough, the current method of storage, the Anvil format, is derived from the storage method that the original Cubic Chunks mod used. The Anvil format stores individual chunk as a series of 16³ quasi-cubic chunks. These 'fake' cubic chunks allow for easier reference of specific data, but they still can't be separated from each other, meaning that it fails to reap the full benefits of this system. Even so, the change allowed Mojang to double the maximum height with no performance hit. Chunks are stored in groups of 32², inside 'MCRegion' files, for a total of 1024 chunks.
By nature, cubic chunks does away with the 'quasi-cubic' nonsense. In terms of chunk grouping, instead of using groups of 32³ chunks, new "3DRegion" files would contain groups of 16³. This means each 3DRegion file contains 4096 chunks, four times as many as MCRegion files. However, each 3DRegion contains only one fourth the amount of blocks. For per-chunk positional metadata, 3DRegion files would use the same number of bits as MCRegion files, after compression. Calculations show that the same area encompassed by a single MCRegion file would consume 64 kilobytes of extra space with 4 3DRegion files, which is nothing.

Converting existing worlds:
Most people are probably wondering something like "But won't this totally destroy all existing worlds?". Absolutely not; conversion could not be simpler. When a non-cubic world is loaded after the implementation of this system, a conversion process will begin and convert the entire world at once(To avoid making chunk loading take longer during play). First, all existing MCRegion files will be divided into quarters to create 3DRegion files. Then, all existing chunks are divided into sixteenths using the quasi-cubic properties to identify boundaries. After that, conversion is done.

The "isEmpty" flag optimization:
A 1-bit flag is added to each chunk, named "isEmpty". If the chunk consists of 100% air blocks, this bit is 1, any other case makes it 0. When the bit is 1, all data for the chunk besides the isEmpty flag is deleted and ignored, which reduces filesize. Empty chunks are never loaded, and locations where they occur are merely simulated as entities reside in them. The chunk will only load when something requires saving inside it.[/spoiler]

Changes to terrain, ores, etcetera:
[spoiler]Terrain:
By default, nothing will change. Small bits of terrain generation code need to be reconfigured to work properly with Cubic Chunks.

Biomes:
By default, nothing will change.

Ore generation:
By default, nothing will change.

Structures:
By default, nothing will change.

The Void:
After conversion to Cubic Chunks, the void and bedrock layer will still exist and generate as they always have. However, the void(Not the bedrock layer!) will not exist as a hard limit and is able to be moved, but not removed, by editing an associated NBT data tag inside a world's level.dat. This feature, that allows for increasing the maximum depth, is intentionally disabled without external programs, to prevent terrain change of any sort. It is intended to be used by experienced mapmakers and world generation mods only.

Superflat settings:
Existing superflat worlds will not change. However, new superflat worlds will gain a new decoration parameter, 'void'. Inclusion of this parameter will cause the void to form below the lowest defined layer. Exclusion of it will cause all layers below the lowest defined layer to copy the settings of that layer.[/spoiler]

Coping with sunlight:
[spoiler]There used to be a solution here, but it wasn't deemed good enough by Jeb. Suggest solutions in this thread.[/spoiler]

Changes to servers:
[spoiler]Settings:
There's a setting inside the Server.properties file called 'max-build-height'. The setting makes it impossible for any player to place or remove blocks above that height.
With the implementation of Cubic Chunks, a new setting named "maximum-generation-depth" would be added. The void, bedrock layers, and magma layers will generate normally at and above the Y level designated by the value of this setting.

Chunk occlusion/exclusion:
Using the raytracing methods already available in the code and used for explosion calculations, servers can identify which chunks are visible to a player, within safe assumptions, and only send the data for those chunks. This both reduces bandwidth usage, and cripples the usefulness of X-Ray cheats.[/spoiler]

Render/Load distance alterations:
[spoiler]After the implementation of Cubic Chunks, view distances' radii will apply to the vertical axis too. This reduces handled blocks in the cases of tiny and short render distances, and increases them in the cases of normal and far render distances. This can be optimized by utilizing a spherical render distance instead of a cubic one, which would reduce handled blocks in all distances except Far.[/spoiler]

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Frequently Asked Questions:

[spoiler=FAQ]Q: This is impossible.
A: No it's not. See below.

Q: Is this available as a mod?
A: Not yet! But it will be!

Q: I like X-ray! What if I don't want it to be broken?
A: First of all, breaking X-ray hacks will only be possible to do in multiplayer. That said, the system that would break X-ray would be possible to disable by the server owner. If the owner doesn't disable the system, then they don't want you using X-ray, and you should not be doing what the server owner doesn't want in the first place.

Q: I play on a PvP/Anarchy/Raid/Faction server. Won't this system let people pillar up into the sky and create a base thousands of blocks in the air and never be found?
A: No.

Q: I like Minecraft's current height limits. What if I don't want to have an infinite sky or infinite underground?
A: If this system is added, all worlds will not automatically gain an infinite underground. As stated below, the Void will remain in all worlds, even after the conversion to Cubic Chunks. The ability to remove the Void will simply be there. As for infinite space in the sky, the current build limit is over one hundred blocks above any terrain that vanilla Minecraft can possibly generate. It is ENTIRELY your decision on whether or not you take advantage of this height. If you play on a server, like stated above, the server owner can set a maximum build height. If s/he doesn't, then don't play on their server - you don't play on servers where the server owners allow things you don't like. Why would you play on an anarchy server if you hate being stolen from and killed?

Q: Will this affect Redstone at all?
A: No. This system will simply make it possible to make larger redstone circuitry than before.

Q: Won't this break existing worlds?
A: No. Existing worlds can be easily converted by dividing each MCRegion file into 4 pieces, then slicing the existing 256 block-high chunks inside them into 16 individual chunks.

Q: Won't this affect mods? Won't mod authors have a hard time updating their mods?
A: The answer to this question depends solely on the answer to the following two questions: Do parts of the modification code rely on chunk data/metadata? Does the mod author want to take advantage of the features of the new chunk system? If the answers to the first and second question are both "No", then updating a mod to this system should be very easy and quick. If the answer to the first question is "Yes", then those parts of the code will need to be rewritten somewhat, but in most cases, the changes should be fairly quick and easy. The only time that it should be hard to update a mod to this system, is if the answer to the second question is "Yes".

Q: Won't this require a total rewrite of the mod API if that's released first?
A: No. Whether or not even a small part of the mod API needs to be rewritten depends on the way that it is implemented and whether or not there are API inclusions for chunk handling and other chunk-related behavior.

Q: Could a player fall into unloaded chunks if chunks aren't loaded fast enough?
A: No, they could not, and for several reasons. Minecraft has a terminal velocity, though it might not seem like it. This velocity is slower than it should take to load new chunks below the player. In cases with exceptionally slow computers, even if the player did manage to reach an unloaded chunk, their fall would be paused until that chunk can be loaded.

Q: What would happen when water, sand, or a mob falls into an unloaded chunk?
A: Nothing. The water/sand/mob would freeze in place until the chunk is loaded and it can continue moving. You can already see this same thing happening on the horizontal axis.

Q: What will happen to the Void?
A: It will still exist, along with all its effects. The only difference is that the Void is no longer a hard limit and it can be moved. After the conversion to Cubic Chunks, the Void's location will be stored in a world's ' class='bbc'>level.dat, and this location can be changed with NBT editing tools. When and where the Void exists, chunks will cease to generate.

Q: Will this affect terrain?
A: No. However, terrain generators will gain the ability to use infinite height.

Q: Will this affect ore generation?
A: No. Ore is a part of terrain generation. As stated above, terrain will not be changed.

Q: Won't all current terrain generators be incompatible with this system and need to be rewritten?
A: No. Terrain generators work independently of chunks. When a chunk is generated for the first time, it calls the terrain generator and receives a specific section of the resultant terrain to save inside itself. Because of this, some custom terrain generators can generate steep terrain all the way to Y256, where you can experience a large, flat cut-off. Since there are no chunks above Y256 to call the terrain generator for terrain, no terrain exists there.

Q: What would happen if there's a huge solid ceiling so far above you that it is unloaded? Wouldn't you just see the sky, just with everything being completely dark?
A: Yes. This already happens on the horizontal axis, and it is an issue with sky rendering, not this chunk system. As such, this has nothing to do with this suggestion. Please do not post about this.

Q: If you go deep underground, will your plants grow/ores smelt/animals grow?
A: No, because those chunks would be unloaded, just as if you had walked far away. This is a flaw with any chunk system, regardless of shape. It is a necessary evil that allows Minecraft to have infinite worlds. The only way to fix this would be to introduce a separate new system that works with chunks as they are loaded and unloaded. This suggestion deals with the chunk system itself, and not sister processes. Because of that, that is outside of the scope of this suggestion. Please do not post about this.[/spoiler]

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[WIP] The Cubic Chunks Mod! (Tall Worlds Mod):

Cuchaz has taken it upon himself to bring us the glorious Cubic Chunks, since Mojang refuses to do so.

Cuchaz is using a API of his own creation to help assist in the making of this mod, and he's quite far along, as seen in these two tech demo videos:
[spoiler=T-Demo 1: Vertical chunk loading][/spoiler]
[spoiler=T-Demo 2: Broken height cap and no lag!][/spoiler]
With the basic functionality in place - a complete overhaul of the basic chunk system, and height limit removed - this whole concept can already be considered proven. What remains is making sure everything else functions correctly under the new chunk system. In any case, stay tuned for future updates if it interests you(If it doesn't, then you are the weakest link - goodbye!).

You can follow the mod's development in much more depth in its very own topic!

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Gallery:

[spoiler=A mountainside with an experimental engine using Cubic Chunks designed by Nocte. 960 block view radius, and 30 FPS.][/spoiler]
[spoiler=A different view of the mountainside with the same engine by Nocte. This time, with 1600 block view radius and 15 FPS.][/spoiler]
[spoiler="A video demonstrating Nocte's engine."]

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Support & Submission to Mojang:

If you support this, hit the rep button in the bottom-left corner of this post. It is the only good way of accurately measuring support here.

If you wish, you can put the following banner, courtesy of laz2727, into your signature. It helps to attract support from all parts of the forum!

 [url=http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1707097-cubic-chunks-infinite-height-elimination-of-x-ray-and-more-60-supporters/page__st__0][img]http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/443/hov.png[/img][/url]

Please help us get word out of this suggestion! Share this with your friends, with Minecraft celebrities if you're familiar with them, or even with Mojangsters like Jeb or Dinnerbone! (Do not share this with Notch. Notch doesn't work with Minecraft anymore.)

The purpose of this suggestion is to have Cubic Chunks implemented in Vanilla. Being available as a modification does not fulfill that purpose. The modification featured in this suggestion is to act as a proof-of-concept only(Note: Its being featured here is to act as a proof-of-concept. The modification itself is on its way to becoming a fully fledged modification).

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Special thanks:
Cuchaz, for taking Barteks' proof and running with it, to give us a truly functional Cubic Chunks mod.
Barteks2x, for updating the Cubic Chunks mod to 1.6.2, proving that it is possible.
Azraile, for posting the original suggestion and allowing me to take ownership of it.
Nocte, for helping resolve flaws and designing Hexahedra.
MineCrak, for a large amount of valuable insight and enthusiasm into the topic of Cubic Chunks.
aaronfranke, for helping resolve flaws.
PanJouda, for creating the original banner.
Flexico, for creating the predecessor to the current banner.
laz2727, for creating the current banner.
Robinton, for creating the original Cubic Chunks mod.
The_Watchman13, for answering all those stupid questions so I don't have to.

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Note: Many calculations and information can be found among the many posts of this topic. There are too many for me to cite here, but if you wish, you can search for them yourself.

Some blocks such as stairs and wood logs, have a different orientation depending on how they are placed. If this were applied to slabs, it would create new possibilities for building. Seeing as it is already possible to do this with some blocks, I don't think it would be difficult to accomplish. It would also not require any new crafting recipes, since they already exist. Is it necessary? Perhaps not, but I feel the addition of sideways slabs would generate many new building ideas.

I searched and found one post about 3 years ago in relation to this, so I didn't find any harm revisiting the idea.

I have searched the forum and have not found anything quite like this... so here we go.

I think that extreme hills do not feel like mountains, but rather just hills. So, maybe the world could uncommonly generate one of these?



As I said, these would be rare, but I imagine some fantastic builds could come from this!


Thoughts?

EDIT:

Here is a picture in the day:



EDIT 2: Supporters list:

Supporter count: 242


Special thanks to LesserLoops for suggesting the list!

If you would like to show full support of this idea, here is a magnificent banner made by LesserLoops
specifically for this thread:



EDIT 4: Here are some more photos to help you guys get a better idea:

Some time ago, I was following the article "What would improve redstone in minecraft" by Regular Hexahedron when I had an idea that could greatly improve minecraft redstone mechanics. Here I describe the actual idea and describe a feasible way to implement it in vanilla minecraft:

Revolutionarizing piston mechanics:
Moveable Dependent Blocks

Introduction

The idea behind this topic is to change piston mechanics, allowing some things that were before considered impossible in minecraft to become true. By this I mean: Free-floating, self contained flying machines, piston based cars and completely automated moving piston robots. Also, self building houses (but this time with beds and paintings on the walls), signs that pop out of the ground and more.

Of course some of these contraptions may be quite complicated to do, but they are possible with just some tweaks in minecraft mechanics. And now I'll show how:

Dependent blocks

What I mean here with "dependent blocks" are blocks that need another block to exist: torches, rails, levers and some tile entities, like paintings, signs and piston heads.

When the parent block is broken or moved away, the dependent (i.e. child) block is immediately dropped - like when you break a block that is under a torch.

And for the pistons, the idea by itself is very simple:


Whenever you do something like this...


This should happen:

Torch moves with the block

You could also push\pull the torch in every direction and it should work the same. And if you have a stack of blocks with torches, levers, pressure plates or any child blocks attached, it should move those blocks as well:


*clicks on lever*




It should work on levers, torches and any other blocks attached to those stone blocks in front of the piston.

However, when there is already a block where the child block should be moved to, either the child block breaks (if the block obstructing the path is a solid block) or the block obstructing the path does (if it's not a solid block):


There is one exception to this rule: when the child block is piston head, it will not break - instead, it will only push\break any blocks in front of it. This is so to allow extended pistons push other extended pistons without breaking in the process.

Practical uses

One thing many people were suggesting in Regular Hexaedron's thread (the one I mentioned above) was to fix a glitch in minecart rails that, when pushed up by a piston, and then back down, they simply break:



This happens because when the piston extends, it pushes normally the blocks in front of it as it does with any other block, but when it retracts, it doesn't "stick" the blocks above it, so the rail acts just like these stone blocks would:


Sticky piston retracting - Does not stick to more than one block

But without it's parent block, the rail, which is floating on the air, simply breaks.

If moveable dependent blocks are allowed, the rail will attach to the stone block when the piston retracts, so the contraption will work as expected, while the stone blocks will behave exactly the same way.

Another example where it can be useful is in cocoa beans farms. Youtube user "monkeyfarm" has done a great job creating a cocoa bean farm that works by pushing the trunk of the tree with pistons, but this relies in a block update bug. His farm can be seen here:



With the new behaviour for cocoa beans when pushed this way, this no longer works, but leaves space for a more reliable (and kinda interesting) cocoa bean farm:



So, how does it work? Simple. The tree is pushed up, then down. The iron saw-like structure stops the cocoa beans from moving, so they break. (Note that this is just to illustrate the concept, I did not optimize it and, sometimes, the cocoa beans gets stuck on the saw - so maybe it's not really "reliable" as I mentioned)

Ok, now getting on the fun part. How can this change make things like robots and cars in vanilla minecraft possible?

Vehicles and robots in vanilla minecraft


This engine is the basis of all moveable devices in minecraft:


The furnace would be sticky piston pointing towards the normal piston on the back

When you flip the lever, the sticky piston extends. You then flip the lever off and the sticky will pull the normal piston near the torch, thus updating it. The normal piston gets powered by the torch and pushes the entire structure forwards, restarting the cycle. Not being powered anymore, the normal piston retracts.

In an real machine, the lever would be an clocked redstone signal coming from some circuit. This would activate the "motors" that would move the entire machine. They could then be stacked side to side, or in a variety of shapes to create automated cars, planes and robots. One of the best thing about it is that a robot could be used to make infinitely extensible memory for redstone devices.

Infinitely extensible memory

Imagine two robots in a sandstone, superflat world. And a computer.

One of the robots is the "signal carrier", and the other is the "tape head". The "tape head" is over the current byte of data, let's say byte 12, and the "signal carrier" is attached to the computer. To increase the value stored on the current bit, the computer activates the "signal carrier", which decouples and goes forward until it detects a redstone signal coming in front of it (the "tape head", telling it is there). It then stops and sends the signal to increase the current value. Then, a sequence of downward pointing pistons move the sandstone under the "tape head" to encode the resulting byte, and the "signal carrier" returns to it's original position. To move the "tape head" one byte forward, a similar process should occur. The "signal carrier" takes the signal from the computer to the "tape head", which will then move further or nearer to the computer to access other bytes of data.

The problem is, the further the "tape head" is from the computer, the slower will be the command processing. But we can have infinite memory in minecraft! (At least before the memory overflows, by reaching the far lands)

Here are the schematics for the machine:

And yes, it was done on ms-paint...

Anyways, let's take a look at the

Extra compactness for redstone mechanisms

That's kinda what every redstone update in minecraft is about today, so let's see what we can do with it.

In RH's thread, I noticed that people were insistently requesting a "power block" in minecraft, one that could be pushed up and down (impossible with the minecart-over-rail method) - And this is also made possible, if you have an lever and a single block. Placing the lever on any side of the block, you will have a toggleable power block, that you can move anywhere.

This concept, as pointed out by user ryanninjasheep, could be used to implement a new kind of piston tape:



In this design, the memory is encoded by blocks with levers on them. On lever means "1", off lever means "0". The blocks could be easily cycled through, would be readable without any repeaters and you could change the memory contents with the click of an mouse! Without mentioning it's a much cheaper method in survival world.

I'm sure there are much more possibilities, principally with the moveable redstone torches, like "super compact BUD switches", "4-block XOR gate" and so on which will simplify redstoners' life, but unfortunately I'm not very good at designing those devices, so I will leave this to real redstone experts.

Publishing the Idea

User BadPrenup has done an amazing banner for my suggestion, so if you want to help publishing it, just copy the code below to your sig:

[url="http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1571723-revolution-in-piston-mechanics-cars-infinite-memory-piston-robots-and-more/"][img]http://i.imgur.com/n4Oop.gif[/img][/url]

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So, that's it. I'm brazillian, so if you see any spelling errors or something like that, please tell me - I spent a LONG time refining this suggestion to get it to the way it's now. Also, if this article sounds confusing for you, feel free to ask anything - I will be following it daily.

I agree with Ric_Adbur that the current leather armor situation is not ideal. I don't think it's a game breaker or anything, but it would be nice to make leather armor a more useful starting armor and give it more long-term viability

There's a few options in my opinion:
1) What the OP suggested - Make leather drop more often. This would be the most simple change to implement and would help in other ways, too (I can't be the only person that finds making book shelves to be a major pain in the butt). The downside is that it doesn't really do anything to improve the long-term usefulness of leather and I think most people would still skip straight to iron (myself included).

2) Make leather mandatory - Make it so leather armor is required to make iron/diamond armor. This is fairly realistic, doesn't change the game very much and obviously makes leather an important step in acquiring the better armor. Unfortunately, this doesn't likely change the fact that a person will have collected enough iron they need to make iron armor as soon as they have the leather necessary. Additionally, it makes leather more annoying unless drop rates are increased anyway.

3) Add raw/refined leather - Make an intermediate step where cows drop Raw Leather at current drop rates. Raw Leather can then be crafted into a greater number Refined Leather (say 9) which then gets used as per the standard crafting recipes. Now, you might think that 9 Refined Leather is far too much, but it makes sense to me (seriously, how many cows do you think you need to kill in real life to make one book cover ). This has similar benefits and drawbacks to option #1, but could open up other recipes later.

4) Give leather new benefits - Make leather mechanically desirable Certainly not as much as diamond, but something people would consider using. I think the best option might be to include special non-combat enchantments only leather can get such as a Speed boost or Sneaking option (players are invisible to mobs past a certain distance while crouching). It would give people a reason to make a "work" outfit out of leather. This would seem to be only a benefit in my opinion and can't think of any drawbacks.

In conclusion, I think that if Mojang really wants to make leather armor a better option, then it will take some combination of the ideas I expressed above - At the very least 1 and 4.

(Yes, only one side of the block. If it was on all four sides of a block, it would probably cause a lot of lag due to the tile entity having to render four times PER BLOCK.)




Changes

Well, bookshelves are to be made now without the books. They will be inserted later, along with anything else that can be put in it. Enchanting levels now only increase in proportion to the number of books in a Bookshelf (It still takes a minimum of 45 books to reach level 30).

Purpose

Aesthetics

Drops

It drops its contents, but not the Shelf


Usage

1. Place a Bookshelf
2. Right Click, a GUI shows up



3. Place items you want (List of placeable items later)



Effect on Bookshelf:
(Note: When a book is placed, the part it is placed will be switched with the normal bookshelf. The customized ones will replace the original books with the item wanted)
(Notice the part with the books uses the original book placement?)




4. Turn to next page
5. There would be a GUI which shows that you can place something on this slot to give detail. "X" means you cannot place anything. List of placeable detail for each item later
(Note: Some items cannot have any detail)
-Cobwebs can be placed on any but torches and redstone torches as the torches will burn those)
-Plant Pots can have things they usually can and also cobwebs)
-Skeleton and Wither Heads can have a torch to light it: Makes the eyes and the mouth glow)



Effect on Bookshelf:





Placeable items:

Effects

Other Variations

Please comment on what you think. Give reputation if you support. Hard work was put into this.

Balancing and practicality trump realism in Minecraft, no exceptions.

New Mob Idea: Antlion

Environment: The Desert!
AI: Very hostile
Drop: ???
Misc: The Antlion is a clever and ferocious predator. It lurks just beneath the surface of loose sand, waiting for happless prey to venture too near. When the poor creature is within striking distance, the Antlion lashes out and attacks it's victim. Somewhat clumsy on the surface, the Antlion will retreat to the safety of the sand if it's prey gets away from it. Waiting for the next creature to come along.

The Antlion would attack pretty quickly, but would be very slow walking. If the player gets outside of striking distance for too long (a few seconds), the Antlion retreats beneath the surface again. Of course the player can try to dig up the Antlion and continue the battle if they so wish.

Not sure what they should drop. Let me know what you think!