The topic I wish to address is a common subtopic to many; it has to do with options, "sliders", etc. Whenever something displeases a part of us, someone suggests a slider, an on/off option, etc. Not necessarily a bad idea, but I'll present the problem in the shape of my own experience.
I used to play on normal difficulty, because I liked the challenge. Then I realised you could change the difficulty level at any time, and I immediately felt bad about this. Why? Because I had to resist the temptation, on my own. But I did so for a while. Then, one day, after dying for the 87th time in this dark complex series of caves, and losing yet all my items, I thought: "I really want to explore that area, shall I turn the game on peaceful for a moment?" I resisted the thought for 40 more deaths. I resented the fact that all my current efforts could be outdone by just a few clicks, and that I had to blind myself in order to think this was a bad alternative. Then I gave in, and got into peaceful mode.
Oh the joy of exploring this damn cave without any problem! Except I wasn't proud. It felt like cheating. Right there and then, I wished the difficulty level couldn't have been changed after you generated a new world.
Then I got back to normal, but the spell was broken: I had tasted the forbidden fruit, and no longer saw a valid reason to get back to normal. I kept playing on peaceful and visiting caves peacefully.
Long story short: even though I voluntarily chose to play on peaceful, I regret to have been given the freedom to change my difficulty level. I know what's coming to me when I say that:
You weak-willed individual! Don't blame the game for your short-comings!
Fair enough, but I know I'm not the only one to feel this way. Hear me out: crafting weapons, crafting armours, developing survival kills, etc, it's all done to resist better to mobs and their attacks. In the absolute, clicking "peaceful" gets you to the same place, so after a while, you have to force yourself against yourself, to not choose an option that maybe you should have no freedom over (except once, before your world is generated).
Don't get me wrong, I have been very happy to have that freedom when endermen started taking blocks away from everything, but apart from that, I sometimes regret that I have the freedom to remove challenges like this. It's a complex situation in which I want to not have to want something that hinders me, I don't want to have such a control over my enemies, because with such control, they feel fake when you do fight them. It's like, "I can remove you at the snap of a finger, but I'll fight you for sports." I don't want to fight for sports, I want to fight because I must, not because I choose to. Think of another game. Now imagine that there's a button that removes all enemies. That button is always at hand. I wouldn't like that! I wouldn't like to have that evil temptation around me all the time.
I don't mean to focus on the difficulty level and such, that's just an example. You can use examples (real or imagined) for any other aspect of the game. I am interested in hearing how you feel about all this, and if anyone else feels the way I do.
The same thing may happen to the hunger/food system: if you know that a few clicks can remove the problem of food and hunger (at any time), doesn't eating become a self-inflicted chore? I don't mind chores when I have zero choice about them, but this is different.
The larger topic, thus, is whether we shouldn't be forced to more things, and have our freedom reduced - and I mean specifically in the sense that too much freedom may kill a game (imagine invincibility in every game you've ever played, that sort of "freedom" would kill tension utterly, and you'd probably never want to play these games).
Playing on normal or else currently feels as if I were using my toes instead of my fingers: it feels like a superficial difficulty I'm imposing on myself for no good reason. Fighting mobs is a means to an end, that's why we shouldn't be exposed to the choice of removing them so easily; they are by definition a nuisance (the good kind) but for this reason must be imposed on us so we don't feel like they're a fake enemy (since an enemy you can remove any second isn't really a threat, we're just fooling ourselves).
I am not suggesting that the difficulty level system should be changed (although I think I would like that), I am merely inciting you to share your opinions on everything I said here. Keep in mind that the main difference between creative mode and survival mode is precisely this restrained freedom, and this is why those of us who play on survival like it. Imagine if you could suddenly get as many items as you wanted in a few clicks, could you still dig for hundreds of them? It's what I often do to get blocks to build things, but if I knew there was such an easy way to do it, I'd become disheartened because:
1) I wouldn't want to acquire this stuff that way
2) I couldn't work hard for it knowing there's such an easy way, I'd feel stupid (that said, the distance between creative and survival is enough to remove that feeling, since it's a different mode, etc)
Reduced freedom is required for survival, by definition, but how far should it go? Feel free to add your own questions to everyone, using examples I didn't use here.
I hope we'll have an interesting conversation. :smile.gif:
A bold affirmation supported by nothing, and certainly not common sense. To assume this, you'd have to first assume that Mojand had thought of all the things we could create within the game (useful or esthetic alike) and that they thought "this is ok, but this is not". A highly preposterous premise.
Anything you can make in Minecraft was meant to be. If you weren't meant to create something, you simply could not. I cannot build nuclear bombs in Minecraft, thus I am not meant to create them. It's all very logical.
The game gives you rules, and you play by them. It's impossible to break a rule without hacking, and mob traps aren't hacking, they're mastering the rules of the games toward a goal. Saying they're not meant to be is like saying "giant statues of Jesus Christ aren't meant to be". And if someone wants to build that? Why not? What does it matter to you what anyone does in their game? Do you hear me commenting on what you build? No, it's none of my business, and I don't see why I'd have anything to say about what you build. The same goes to you.
It may not occur to you, but many builders of traps don't do it for the items they get, but simply because it's a fun way to build systems involved with all the mechanics of the game, and it requires a lot of thinking, trial and error, that personally I found that more fun than building a static type of structure.
Lastly, if, as you say, they weren't meant to be, they would not exist. It's simple enough to alter the game so mob traps become useles; removing the drop would do it, and Mojang knows how to do this, since they did it with XP orbs, which don't drop when killed in a mob trap (and which I agree with 100%). That fact is proof that they could have done the same with regular drops, but chose not to, thus endorsing tacitly the existence of mob traps.
Oh boo hoo i think endermen are perfect the way they are
At least they are giving you something to do then sit around waiting for a mob to fall into the grinder
If you dont want to play with endermen go back to 1.7.3 and stop winging
Well, that was funny. Comments like yours are a dime a dozen in this thread. But let me enlighten you: when I'm in my death factory, collecting items by the dozens, I'm not simply waiting, if I'm here at all. Usually, I work (real life work).
Secondly, I do want to play with endermen. What I don't want is:
- endlessly griefed structures (esthetic ones and functional ones)
- endlessly and increasingly deteriorating landscapes
Sure, you can repair your own stuff (and that depends on what you have, some of us have such enormous things it'd take a full time job to repair it constantly, and that's pointless since the griefing won't stop), but you can't repair landscape. There's too much of it, and by the time you've repaired one area, another area will have been undone (and honestly, landscape isn't the sort of thing that should be repaired).
Thirdly, whining is the act of complaining without trying to find a solution. Nobody is whining here, except you, whose solution is just invalid and has many alternatives already, but I don't suppose you read much of the thread.
This idea isn't originally mine, however I think instead of having to place massive moats and spam torches we should have some kind of Endermen repelant. The one I refer to being a totem/torch however you prefer. It would require an Enderpearl on top and then perhaps a fence post or red stone torch beneath in the crafting table. It would then create a torch/totem that could be placed, say with a reach of 15 blocks in any direction, and glows say green when active. Thus the torch/totem wouldn't even have to be in the mob grinder if it's small enough. Or the torch/totem could just disable them from picking up block within the area of influence. It would solve the problem. However, I think Notch might make them only pick up blocks to use as a weapon to attack with, but that is just my thought and I have no idea if he'd actually do that.
It's a good idea, but it won't help preserve the environment, unless you constantly place said repelents everywhere as you explore, which isn't as much of a challenge as it is a chore.
If removing blocks added anything, anything, I'd be ok with the repelent idea, but so far, I fail to see what good this ability is and why we should even try to preserve it.
The only solution I see, for the game (not me, I solutionised it already), is to have enderman be more aggressive and remove blocks solely in order to get to the player and kill him. That way, it'd function much like the creeper and everyone would be fine with this. Enderman might actually become scary, a monster with a purpose, instead of an autistic mob with a fascination for vandalism.
Then Notch can suck those things dangling between my legs.
It's the basic evolution of survival. Mankind began in a state where it had to migrate around the world, chasing down animals to kill for food, leathers, etc. Over time man learned the benefits of breeding animals for a more permanent supply of food.
There are even game preserves that allow for the preservation of animal populations while allowing controlled hunting.
Passive and aggressive mob farms are of a similar vein. You start the game having to search for your materials and you grow to a point that you control the supply. Take that away and what's the point?
I'll build the occasional "pretty" structure, but almost everything I make is functional, and usually based around being a large, efficient MOB trap; combining form with function. Everything I've build I've done so in Survival, as well, meaning I've had to work for every stone, every rail, every dye. That work makes the result significantly more satisfying.
8 separate MOB collecting waterways and moat going to a central collection point, complete with elevators to extend the waterways.
A spread of waterways for mob collection. Very efficient given the limited spawnable areas around.
Four mob spawn areas (aggessive inside, passive on top) feeding into a central collection point. Incredibly efficient.
Enderman will have a god damn field day with these, and in the process completely ruin how I like to play the game.
Damn, these are epic! Just wait until someone calls you "lazy" because you don't hunt for the stuff... Congrats on the epicness! I'd not mind seeing more pictures if you feel like it.
Dude you do know that Notch hates mob grinders right? There's no way he's going to remove enderman's block picking up ability.
Actually, I don't know that. I've heard it often, but have never seen evidence of this. Moreover, XP doesn't drop from mobs killed in grinders, which means they could have done the same for regular drops, but chose not to, which means they don't "hate" grinders. If they did, why not cancel regular drops as well?
Lastly, hating ingenuity and creativity and learning the game's mechanics to create sophisticated tools, if Notch and company hate that, they're clearly on the wrong track. Sorry to break the news to you, but pistons, redstone, and all the stuff that allows you to create machines and systems, so far, their best use and most rewarding is to create "grinders".
ok, like i said)) Just whine, stamp your feet and cry=)) And the main goal is to NOT listen to anybody. I want this sweeties!!! aaaahaaaaa.....
In case you haven't read much of the thread, the problem is solved. Why would I whine and stomp my feet? My endermen no longer pick up blocks, problem solved.
I stay here for the discussion about the game, not about myself. I do believe it's a bad addition to the game, period.
I listened to everyone in this thread, and responded to most. I have no idea why you're so upset that people have an opinion that differ from yours, but I suggest you get used to it because you will find that a lot during your life. Yes, people will disagree with you.
It's funny that everything you accuse us of is what you do. You're the one complaining that we opened a thread on something we think is a bad move, and you're the one not listening, since you clearly didn't read any of the thread.
Why do you post? You bring no argument to the table. You just... whine. Whining is the act of complaining without any actual attempt at solving the problem at hand. That's whining. It's not what I've done in this thread; we discussed solutions and actually found more than one. The problem is solved, now it's discussion about enderman more generally. You don't have to participate if you don't want to, so stop whining, and deal with it.
I have now installed the mod, successfully, and it works. No more blocks being moved about. That's cool, but I still believe this is something that shouldn't be in the game.
See, haters, this isn't about whining, and it isn't selfish. It's not just about me, myself, personally having a problem, it's also because I, like many others, genuinely believe this ability is a very bad idea for the game itself. This is why, even though the problem is utterly gone to me now, I still discuss it here. I love Minecraft and care for it, and this is a threat to Minecraft.
Rather than post screen shots and whine. How about you guys get actual proof that Endermen are destroying your structures. IE: Get Fraps or another recording device, wait around your structure at night, film it as it happens, then post the proof. Posting screen shots of blocks missing is pathetic proof.
Why?
Whats stopping you from walking up and taking out your own blocks then taking a screen shot and saying that the Endermen did it? Exactly nothing. Video proof that these mobs are screwing with player made things, or stop whining. Thats my stance.
So, in other words, you think we're making this stuff up. The reason I didn't even bother postings pics of the damge is two-fold:
1) I didn't think proof would be required, since anyone can experience the same just as easily (who'd request a video of creepers blowing up to prove they do blow up?)
2) pictures of blocks missing can, as you pointed out, be faked easily
I don't have any program to film footage of anything on my screen, and even if I had, I haven't seen myself any enderman ruining my structure, I just saw the damage and sure as hell know I didn't do it myself!
Removing one block is enough to ruin my structure. One block. You remove one at the bottom of a water channel and the minute plan goes wrong: water suddenly falls into my shaft and gravity no longer kills anyone, and mobs not killed by the fall anyway will simply swim ad eternam.
But yeah, sir, we are not conspiracy theorists; this stuff does happen, trust you me.
endermen moving blocks is a great idea, it was lovely to see the teamwork of the ender/creeper sabotages that keep getting into my forts, beautiful almost. i think it's a nice touch giving the enemy a sense of danger, and not just 'stand there while i hit you' . This is a SURVIVAL game, if you want to be creative, turn off mobs.
Agreed, the epic poetry that is an enderman moving a block of dirt made me cry tears of crystaline joy. I could not believe, as the lean stranger seized a block, that this entity was truly before me. Lo and behold, it placed the block somewhere else. The intensity of the moment was such, that I shat my pants with glee.
Ô, enderman, I love thee, please shove blocks up my ass all night long.
2
The topic I wish to address is a common subtopic to many; it has to do with options, "sliders", etc. Whenever something displeases a part of us, someone suggests a slider, an on/off option, etc. Not necessarily a bad idea, but I'll present the problem in the shape of my own experience.
I used to play on normal difficulty, because I liked the challenge. Then I realised you could change the difficulty level at any time, and I immediately felt bad about this. Why? Because I had to resist the temptation, on my own. But I did so for a while. Then, one day, after dying for the 87th time in this dark complex series of caves, and losing yet all my items, I thought: "I really want to explore that area, shall I turn the game on peaceful for a moment?" I resisted the thought for 40 more deaths. I resented the fact that all my current efforts could be outdone by just a few clicks, and that I had to blind myself in order to think this was a bad alternative. Then I gave in, and got into peaceful mode.
Oh the joy of exploring this damn cave without any problem! Except I wasn't proud. It felt like cheating. Right there and then, I wished the difficulty level couldn't have been changed after you generated a new world.
Then I got back to normal, but the spell was broken: I had tasted the forbidden fruit, and no longer saw a valid reason to get back to normal. I kept playing on peaceful and visiting caves peacefully.
Long story short: even though I voluntarily chose to play on peaceful, I regret to have been given the freedom to change my difficulty level. I know what's coming to me when I say that:
You weak-willed individual! Don't blame the game for your short-comings!
Fair enough, but I know I'm not the only one to feel this way. Hear me out: crafting weapons, crafting armours, developing survival kills, etc, it's all done to resist better to mobs and their attacks. In the absolute, clicking "peaceful" gets you to the same place, so after a while, you have to force yourself against yourself, to not choose an option that maybe you should have no freedom over (except once, before your world is generated).
Don't get me wrong, I have been very happy to have that freedom when endermen started taking blocks away from everything, but apart from that, I sometimes regret that I have the freedom to remove challenges like this. It's a complex situation in which I want to not have to want something that hinders me, I don't want to have such a control over my enemies, because with such control, they feel fake when you do fight them. It's like, "I can remove you at the snap of a finger, but I'll fight you for sports." I don't want to fight for sports, I want to fight because I must, not because I choose to. Think of another game. Now imagine that there's a button that removes all enemies. That button is always at hand. I wouldn't like that! I wouldn't like to have that evil temptation around me all the time.
I don't mean to focus on the difficulty level and such, that's just an example. You can use examples (real or imagined) for any other aspect of the game. I am interested in hearing how you feel about all this, and if anyone else feels the way I do.
The same thing may happen to the hunger/food system: if you know that a few clicks can remove the problem of food and hunger (at any time), doesn't eating become a self-inflicted chore? I don't mind chores when I have zero choice about them, but this is different.
The larger topic, thus, is whether we shouldn't be forced to more things, and have our freedom reduced - and I mean specifically in the sense that too much freedom may kill a game (imagine invincibility in every game you've ever played, that sort of "freedom" would kill tension utterly, and you'd probably never want to play these games).
Playing on normal or else currently feels as if I were using my toes instead of my fingers: it feels like a superficial difficulty I'm imposing on myself for no good reason. Fighting mobs is a means to an end, that's why we shouldn't be exposed to the choice of removing them so easily; they are by definition a nuisance (the good kind) but for this reason must be imposed on us so we don't feel like they're a fake enemy (since an enemy you can remove any second isn't really a threat, we're just fooling ourselves).
I am not suggesting that the difficulty level system should be changed (although I think I would like that), I am merely inciting you to share your opinions on everything I said here. Keep in mind that the main difference between creative mode and survival mode is precisely this restrained freedom, and this is why those of us who play on survival like it. Imagine if you could suddenly get as many items as you wanted in a few clicks, could you still dig for hundreds of them? It's what I often do to get blocks to build things, but if I knew there was such an easy way to do it, I'd become disheartened because:
1) I wouldn't want to acquire this stuff that way
2) I couldn't work hard for it knowing there's such an easy way, I'd feel stupid (that said, the distance between creative and survival is enough to remove that feeling, since it's a different mode, etc)
Reduced freedom is required for survival, by definition, but how far should it go? Feel free to add your own questions to everyone, using examples I didn't use here.
I hope we'll have an interesting conversation. :smile.gif:
1
A bold affirmation supported by nothing, and certainly not common sense. To assume this, you'd have to first assume that Mojand had thought of all the things we could create within the game (useful or esthetic alike) and that they thought "this is ok, but this is not". A highly preposterous premise.
Anything you can make in Minecraft was meant to be. If you weren't meant to create something, you simply could not. I cannot build nuclear bombs in Minecraft, thus I am not meant to create them. It's all very logical.
The game gives you rules, and you play by them. It's impossible to break a rule without hacking, and mob traps aren't hacking, they're mastering the rules of the games toward a goal. Saying they're not meant to be is like saying "giant statues of Jesus Christ aren't meant to be". And if someone wants to build that? Why not? What does it matter to you what anyone does in their game? Do you hear me commenting on what you build? No, it's none of my business, and I don't see why I'd have anything to say about what you build. The same goes to you.
It may not occur to you, but many builders of traps don't do it for the items they get, but simply because it's a fun way to build systems involved with all the mechanics of the game, and it requires a lot of thinking, trial and error, that personally I found that more fun than building a static type of structure.
Lastly, if, as you say, they weren't meant to be, they would not exist. It's simple enough to alter the game so mob traps become useles; removing the drop would do it, and Mojang knows how to do this, since they did it with XP orbs, which don't drop when killed in a mob trap (and which I agree with 100%). That fact is proof that they could have done the same with regular drops, but chose not to, thus endorsing tacitly the existence of mob traps.
1
Well, that was funny. Comments like yours are a dime a dozen in this thread. But let me enlighten you: when I'm in my death factory, collecting items by the dozens, I'm not simply waiting, if I'm here at all. Usually, I work (real life work).
Secondly, I do want to play with endermen. What I don't want is:
- endlessly griefed structures (esthetic ones and functional ones)
- endlessly and increasingly deteriorating landscapes
Sure, you can repair your own stuff (and that depends on what you have, some of us have such enormous things it'd take a full time job to repair it constantly, and that's pointless since the griefing won't stop), but you can't repair landscape. There's too much of it, and by the time you've repaired one area, another area will have been undone (and honestly, landscape isn't the sort of thing that should be repaired).
Thirdly, whining is the act of complaining without trying to find a solution. Nobody is whining here, except you, whose solution is just invalid and has many alternatives already, but I don't suppose you read much of the thread.
1
It's a good idea, but it won't help preserve the environment, unless you constantly place said repelents everywhere as you explore, which isn't as much of a challenge as it is a chore.
If removing blocks added anything, anything, I'd be ok with the repelent idea, but so far, I fail to see what good this ability is and why we should even try to preserve it.
The only solution I see, for the game (not me, I solutionised it already), is to have enderman be more aggressive and remove blocks solely in order to get to the player and kill him. That way, it'd function much like the creeper and everyone would be fine with this. Enderman might actually become scary, a monster with a purpose, instead of an autistic mob with a fascination for vandalism.
2
Damn, these are epic! Just wait until someone calls you "lazy" because you don't hunt for the stuff... Congrats on the epicness! I'd not mind seeing more pictures if you feel like it.
1
Actually, I don't know that. I've heard it often, but have never seen evidence of this. Moreover, XP doesn't drop from mobs killed in grinders, which means they could have done the same for regular drops, but chose not to, which means they don't "hate" grinders. If they did, why not cancel regular drops as well?
Lastly, hating ingenuity and creativity and learning the game's mechanics to create sophisticated tools, if Notch and company hate that, they're clearly on the wrong track. Sorry to break the news to you, but pistons, redstone, and all the stuff that allows you to create machines and systems, so far, their best use and most rewarding is to create "grinders".
1
In case you haven't read much of the thread, the problem is solved. Why would I whine and stomp my feet? My endermen no longer pick up blocks, problem solved.
I stay here for the discussion about the game, not about myself. I do believe it's a bad addition to the game, period.
I listened to everyone in this thread, and responded to most. I have no idea why you're so upset that people have an opinion that differ from yours, but I suggest you get used to it because you will find that a lot during your life. Yes, people will disagree with you.
It's funny that everything you accuse us of is what you do. You're the one complaining that we opened a thread on something we think is a bad move, and you're the one not listening, since you clearly didn't read any of the thread.
Why do you post? You bring no argument to the table. You just... whine. Whining is the act of complaining without any actual attempt at solving the problem at hand. That's whining. It's not what I've done in this thread; we discussed solutions and actually found more than one. The problem is solved, now it's discussion about enderman more generally. You don't have to participate if you don't want to, so stop whining, and deal with it.
Don't expect another answer from me.
2
See, haters, this isn't about whining, and it isn't selfish. It's not just about me, myself, personally having a problem, it's also because I, like many others, genuinely believe this ability is a very bad idea for the game itself. This is why, even though the problem is utterly gone to me now, I still discuss it here. I love Minecraft and care for it, and this is a threat to Minecraft.
1
So, in other words, you think we're making this stuff up. The reason I didn't even bother postings pics of the damge is two-fold:
1) I didn't think proof would be required, since anyone can experience the same just as easily (who'd request a video of creepers blowing up to prove they do blow up?)
2) pictures of blocks missing can, as you pointed out, be faked easily
I don't have any program to film footage of anything on my screen, and even if I had, I haven't seen myself any enderman ruining my structure, I just saw the damage and sure as hell know I didn't do it myself!
Removing one block is enough to ruin my structure. One block. You remove one at the bottom of a water channel and the minute plan goes wrong: water suddenly falls into my shaft and gravity no longer kills anyone, and mobs not killed by the fall anyway will simply swim ad eternam.
But yeah, sir, we are not conspiracy theorists; this stuff does happen, trust you me.
2
Agreed, the epic poetry that is an enderman moving a block of dirt made me cry tears of crystaline joy. I could not believe, as the lean stranger seized a block, that this entity was truly before me. Lo and behold, it placed the block somewhere else. The intensity of the moment was such, that I shat my pants with glee.
Ô, enderman, I love thee, please shove blocks up my ass all night long.