Plugins are by definition additions that are specifically designed to fit the needs of individual servers.
Vanilla Minecraft is by definition supposed to be vanilla, the main set of content and features that a person needs to enjoy most of the game.
You're absolutely right. I guess the definitions are pretty important.
No it isn't. Think about it. If Mojang was willing to add slight alteration gamemodes, they would've added ones that were more elaborate than yours. There's hundreds of gamemode mods out there that servers host, most of them being the most well-known and addicting ones ever created - ones that Mojang probably knows about, so what makes you think that your gamemode is the one that deserves to be in vanilla?
A "need"? Well no, it isn't a need, because the game won't collapse and suddenly become horrible without your idea.
Stop saying its my gamemode. Its a gamemode that I happened to suggest. Of course it isn't a need. In fact, there is no need for creative mode, or survival, or horses, or endermen, or toggled fog, or anything, so that is really irrelevant. Also, the game did not collapse, but I do currently think the game, though not suddenly, has become horrible, since I don't have a taste for cosmetics, and if I did, would rather pursue some graphic design software or something. The suggestion does rely on the prediction that many other people feel the same, and not necessarily that it makes the game horrible, but at least less good than it should be.
So why does it deserve to be in vanilla?
First, the main effect of this mode is on what blocks can be planted and destroyed. This, although as you might say less radical, follows the trend with other gamemodes that it controls what you can create and destroy, with other modifications if necessary. In adventure mode you cannot destroy anything. In survival mode you can destroy anything given the time and easy to obtain tools necessary to do so and build whatever you destroyed. In creative you can absolutely destroy anything or build anything, and also fly.
This is meant to fill in the gap between survival and adventure. In my opinion, and hopefully in the opinions of others, the leap between adventure and survival is too large, going from nothing destructible to everything easily breakable even by hand. This is a problem for people who want to build, but also want the building to actually stop the path of another human. So it is a mode between adventure and survival in that stone cannot be destroyed without an explosion.
Why is a mod or plugin unsatisfactory?
Because for it to get the full effect, there must be one set of physics acknowledged by the community, like the canon to star trek or zelda or what you will. It is simply not worth innovating technology for the physics of one server, when it may be run entirely different on another. Also, with a centralized set of physics for war, war will naturally become more popular and with more people, bigger armies can form that have enough people to man a base 24/7 (i.e. at least one out of 100 in a clan online at a time).
To make a cobble generator you need a bucket, that you craft using iron. Gems and ores are mineable, but stone is not. You need cobblestone to mine iron to make a bucket, so you can build a cobble generator.
I have since changed it so that the person spawns with 20 cobble, so that he can make stone tools.
The permanent death and locked difficulty do make a huge difference in the long run. There's a difference between deleting your own world by choice and having it ripped from you all of a sudden. Some people enjoy the constant paranoia of having their world they worked on for 4 months suddenly ripped from them, and it's a nice step up from normal hard mode. There's none of that "Uh oh! I'm in trouble! I better switch it to Peaceful real quick!"
There's a difference between a difficulty mode and a slightly altered survival mode.
The issue is that for every other optional update, you are explaining the difference it makes by the effect of what is changed, where for this, you are judging the difference by what the changes themselves are. You are also kind of generalizing when you are calling this a slightly modified survival mode. In survival, mining stone is a big part; taking it away makes a large difference on how one can approach the game, and that difference is what is intended. People will no longer be able to mindlessly click at stone, but are now challenged to develop machines that expedite work for them, previously unchallenged to do so.
Because there's nothing to expand upon. There's no need to implement a slight alteration of survival mode.
Again, that's the role that mods take.
Ahh yes, there it is. One of the most overused and convoluted responses used to patch a suggestion. No, making it optional doesn't raise the suggestion from hell all the way up to the clouds of blissful salvation. First of all, if the suggestion is balanced enough, it doesn't need to be optional, and second, having an option that alters things in survival mode like that would just be stupid.
If it was optional, what's gonna stop players from finding exploits by toggling the option on and off?
Ok,
if it were optional, it would only be optional to those who control the server.
It would be balanced if it were not optional, in fact, I personally wish it weren't. It would also be very different, and therefore, some people would want the old survival mode. That is the only reason it is optional. My idea is still worth implementing without that argument. There is a need because it would affect the gameplay in a positive way, and many people in the community would enjoy it, and the vanilla would serve as a center for technological development and discussion.
I have edited my original post to explain why this is should be a vanilla change and not a mod.
The argument that remains is whether this would bring an enjoyable gameplay experience that many people would enjoy, which I would be happy to discuss with you.
In response to Badprenup:
Thanks for the constructive criticism. You made a lot of points, so I'll just try to tackle a few at a time:
You said that you liked WoW for large scale raids. This would make minecraft more like that, and less mindless clicking. It would be less sword fighting and more engineering and more use of siege weaponry.
I'll admit that the lack of a stone pickaxe is a problem. That shall be fixed: You now spawn with 20 cobble in addition to the wood axe.
In respect to griefing, there is always /kill. If someone is able to build a full stone wall around someone, that's a checkmate.
Do you even know how faction play works?
Once a faction claims a chunk, no other faction can destroy (or, I believe place) blocks in that chunk. They can only enter through unsealed entrances. So, sorry, but your suggestion is kind of pointless.
I have played on faction servers, believe me. The issue is that when blocks are completely indestructible, as in factions, there is no movement in gameplay. It is possible to water wall a base and be entirely invincible, or make it out of obsidian. In addition, the whole claimed land thing is arbitrary. It has worked a little bit if people play it right, but in the end, its just a gimmick. This makes it so that land is protected by the actual structure itself, not arbitrary griefing rules. Also don't conclude that your argument is right immediately after saying it. It doesn't accomplish anything.
If stone is destructible only using TNT, how do we get iron, redstone, diamonds, gold and obsidian, if we don't have access to stone (to craft tools)?
And I know, you can get TNT, but for one piece you need to kill 3-5 creepers. One piece only give you, in an explosion, 3-4 pieces of stone. Very very smart.
I answered that question. Gems and ores are mineable as normal. They can be found on the surfaces in caves and ravines. Cobble and obsidian can be mined, therefore a cobble generator can be made to get cobble, which is then cooked. I'll update the TL;DR to show that.
I made a suggestion which might revive the function of this thread, therefore I think it is relevant enough to post a link to it here. Explain why if you disagree:
Based on the community's reaction, it will not be an update. But a plugin like this would really be well needed for a war. And since it makes sense, it would work. Of course, i think the whole art of war community has passed on so i really don't think that it matters anyway.
Thanks for clarifying what I believe a lot of other people have been trying to argue. I think about 25% of people PvP now because PvP just isn't as rewarding as creative play currently. Right now its not much more than sword fights. I believe that with something like this, it would increase the interest in PvP greatly, for it would be a lot more rewarding. After all, those mob towers, and cannons and traps and cool entrances would accomplish something. Why not would a builder want to test his ability in world domination engineering? I just think that if united by its place in vanilla, it would provide a new aspect to the gameplay of even non combat builders. They would surely want to design their own gadgets that PvPers would be drooling to use. All of that is not possible with a third party mod, because people will not give that respect to a single server. You do not see things on the front page of the forums that say, "Look at this awesome cannon (Only useful on X server)"
In short, I think it would unite a new section of technological development in minecraft, whose practical use in the field would be quite tasty.
Let's make this short and sweet:
1. TFC adds most of this in
2. You have one TNT types that destroys all nearby solids, and one that destroys liquids; neither can make cannons
3. Nobody breaks stone with their bare hands
4. I did not read every word of your article because it is almost 11:00PM and you keep typing extensive articles that focus on all the wrong things. Good night
1. I believe it should be accessible to all players, as opposed to those who are willing to play on TFC. The same argument could be used against the pistons mod. Nevertheless, it was implemented.
2.I never said that the original explosives would not exist.
3. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
4.You say that, but you don't provide any examples. Please don't tell me my argument is invalid because you don't wish to hear it. If you don't , that is fine, but keep that to yourself.
Couple of things coming from a MC Veteran , First of all Minecraft is NOT real at all. If you think a 2D game that's about placing blocks like legos is realistic than you should check yourself out, second of all might want to include a TL:DR In this type of thread but overall this isn't a bad idea.
I do not think this should exist becuase it would make the game realistic. I believe this should exist because it would make the game entertaining. I think that no whether or not it is original or Mojang has done updates of this scale in the past etc, it would make the game more fun. If it should make the game more fun, why shouldn't it pass through? If one doesnt think it would make the game fun, I would like to hear why, but that should be the center of the argument and not whether mods can achieve this.
Except that just saying "It could be optional" is not a valid point or defense of an idea either. By that logic, every part of the game should be something you can turn on or off. Furthermore, in a way he did say that. He said he thought it would be better as a mod, which is what most things that could be added but "could be optional" should be.
No reason to bloat the game with tons of options for relatively small new features, that is 100% the reason why mods exist. To add to the games of people who want them, but not waste developer time making a change targeted to a tiny niche of people and not force everyone to download something extra they will never use.
You are making an assumption that just because the update only makes small changes, it only affects a small group of people. The fact that it is optional is not the basis of my argument. My basis is in the "What Does this Accomplish" sections, the actual points of which few people have debated.
This update, would affect a large group of people. Tell me if you disagree that at least 25% of the people who play minecraft play PvP. I am suggesting this to vanilla because I believe that it is a better way that survival should be run in respect to PvP servers that most people would agree is better for PvP. In fact, the only reason why I am saying it is optional is because it is too game changing of a change to be a direct change to the current survival mode.
Therefore, if there is anything to discuss, its whether the bulk of people who play PvP would actually want this change. If not, then yes, its pleasing to a small enough group of people that it should be implemented as a mod. If most PvPers would agree that indestructible stone would be better, then it affects a large enough group of people that it is a worthwhile update.
Because that's a waste of time. We don't have gamemodes like "capture the flag" or "defend your castle" because mods and server plugins take this place, and it's easier to leave that stuff to other people who work on mods and such while Mojang can work on the more important stuff. The game's been out for years, yet we only have the 3 gamemodes we truly need.
That's a good point that it might not be worth mojang's effort for something that might not be entirely different. But if the change is small, is not the effort required also small, and if the amount of change were directly proportional to the amount of effort, the effort to change ratio would not change would it? In another words, the yield would still be in proportion with the effort.
That may be the worst argument for a gamemode I have ever seen. Yeah, now that you mention it, Jack the Ripper and Stephen Hawking are exactly the same, except the only difference was that Jack the Ripper killed 5 prostitutes while Hawking didn't.
Saying that it is the worst argument you have ever seen does not add to the argument, nor does sarcasm. But that's not my argument for why the game mode should exist. It's simply a reply to another argument against the idea which you took out of context.
PS: Trinitrotoluene's refusal to destruct liquids is the logic that makes many vanilla cannons work. If this function was removed, our current and relatively casual designs would destroy itself upon activation; thus incomplexicating cannon designs or outright limiting choices for ranged defense.
In response to the first statement:
Search Engines are consistently making their best efforts to refine their search algorithms, so that it is easier to find what one is looking for. This is because they are imperfect in respect to being able to receive semantics from one's mind and match those semantics with those online. You cannot hold me accountable to find something that I do not even know exists. I would have needed to know that Terra Firma Craft had existed in the first place to be able to find it. I searched unbreakable stone minecraft and it was not on the front page of google. For look it up to be applicable, it must be able to be found with only common knowledge, without chance.
In addition, just because a server has something as a mod does not mean it should not be implemented in vanilla. If you disagree, please explain why.
I explained why waterproof TNT cannons would work: The propelling TNT is not waterproof. Waterproof TNT and Absorbent TNT are separate items, and when they are propelled before explosion, they will not destruct the cannon.
Every added mode practically double the test matrix.
Please explain how it does this, and what adverse effect it would have on the game, if Mojang did implement this, since the primary argument currently seems to be that Mojang should not implement this because it is not different enough.
I also believe I elaborated on how it would be different enough in the "What does this accomplish?" Section. If you disagree, please explain why those pointers either do not accomplish what they say, or why those points are not enough to be worthy of an update. If you are going to argue that a certain point is not true, without disputing the verity of all the points I mentioned, you need to explain why the remaining points that still may be true are insufficient for an update.
That's not how a valid gamemode works. Take a look at the three we have now, they are all extremely different and unique from each other. Your suggestion is basically survival mode but with added tweaks and some new crafts here and there, and that's a universe and a half away from being a valid gamemode for vanilla.
This seems like more of a mod thing.
The fact that cobblestone is indestructible by hand makes a huge difference on gameplay. If you look at creative, the only real difference is that you have all blocks at your disposal and you can fly. That does make a difference on the gameplay, of course. What makes you think that the validity of a gamemode is defined by how different the specific implementations are? Just because, as you say, the current gamemodes are "very different", any other gamemode must have entirely different workings? Why is it such a given that game modes cannot be somewhat similar to eachother? How much time does it take to add a gamemode? How much space is there for gamemodes? Must there only be enough that can be counted on the fingers? I understand that some things simply shouldn't be gamemodes, but this serves a purpose (And I'd personally rather argue to the purpose itself of the update. Whether its a mod or a mode is arbitrary).
They won't make some new explosive for just a new mode. Also you said that it is for competitive play for servers. These things can already be done with the use of plugins. Lastly, this will not actually fix people breaching walls. People can just build over the wall.
The explosives wouldn't really be that new. They would only destroy different things. I see no reason why that would not be implementable. Whether or not someone can make a plugin for something does not really decide whether something should be implemented in vanilla. Pistons were originally a mod. Essentially anybody can make a plugin for anything. They tend to be awkward in quality. A roof would stop people from building over a structure. I was not limiting walls to vertical walls. Now something could be done to solve pillaring, and I'll think about that, since pillaring doesn't have much of a realistic feel to it.
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shortorderboy would like to be a member
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You're absolutely right. I guess the definitions are pretty important.
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Stop saying its my gamemode. Its a gamemode that I happened to suggest. Of course it isn't a need. In fact, there is no need for creative mode, or survival, or horses, or endermen, or toggled fog, or anything, so that is really irrelevant. Also, the game did not collapse, but I do currently think the game, though not suddenly, has become horrible, since I don't have a taste for cosmetics, and if I did, would rather pursue some graphic design software or something. The suggestion does rely on the prediction that many other people feel the same, and not necessarily that it makes the game horrible, but at least less good than it should be.
So why does it deserve to be in vanilla?
First, the main effect of this mode is on what blocks can be planted and destroyed. This, although as you might say less radical, follows the trend with other gamemodes that it controls what you can create and destroy, with other modifications if necessary. In adventure mode you cannot destroy anything. In survival mode you can destroy anything given the time and easy to obtain tools necessary to do so and build whatever you destroyed. In creative you can absolutely destroy anything or build anything, and also fly.
This is meant to fill in the gap between survival and adventure. In my opinion, and hopefully in the opinions of others, the leap between adventure and survival is too large, going from nothing destructible to everything easily breakable even by hand. This is a problem for people who want to build, but also want the building to actually stop the path of another human. So it is a mode between adventure and survival in that stone cannot be destroyed without an explosion.
Why is a mod or plugin unsatisfactory?
Because for it to get the full effect, there must be one set of physics acknowledged by the community, like the canon to star trek or zelda or what you will. It is simply not worth innovating technology for the physics of one server, when it may be run entirely different on another. Also, with a centralized set of physics for war, war will naturally become more popular and with more people, bigger armies can form that have enough people to man a base 24/7 (i.e. at least one out of 100 in a clan online at a time).
I have since changed it so that the person spawns with 20 cobble, so that he can make stone tools.
The issue is that for every other optional update, you are explaining the difference it makes by the effect of what is changed, where for this, you are judging the difference by what the changes themselves are. You are also kind of generalizing when you are calling this a slightly modified survival mode. In survival, mining stone is a big part; taking it away makes a large difference on how one can approach the game, and that difference is what is intended. People will no longer be able to mindlessly click at stone, but are now challenged to develop machines that expedite work for them, previously unchallenged to do so.
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Ok,
if it were optional, it would only be optional to those who control the server.
It would be balanced if it were not optional, in fact, I personally wish it weren't. It would also be very different, and therefore, some people would want the old survival mode. That is the only reason it is optional. My idea is still worth implementing without that argument. There is a need because it would affect the gameplay in a positive way, and many people in the community would enjoy it, and the vanilla would serve as a center for technological development and discussion.
I have edited my original post to explain why this is should be a vanilla change and not a mod.
The argument that remains is whether this would bring an enjoyable gameplay experience that many people would enjoy, which I would be happy to discuss with you.
In response to Badprenup:
Thanks for the constructive criticism. You made a lot of points, so I'll just try to tackle a few at a time:
You said that you liked WoW for large scale raids. This would make minecraft more like that, and less mindless clicking. It would be less sword fighting and more engineering and more use of siege weaponry.
I'll admit that the lack of a stone pickaxe is a problem. That shall be fixed: You now spawn with 20 cobble in addition to the wood axe.
In respect to griefing, there is always /kill. If someone is able to build a full stone wall around someone, that's a checkmate.
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I have played on faction servers, believe me. The issue is that when blocks are completely indestructible, as in factions, there is no movement in gameplay. It is possible to water wall a base and be entirely invincible, or make it out of obsidian. In addition, the whole claimed land thing is arbitrary. It has worked a little bit if people play it right, but in the end, its just a gimmick. This makes it so that land is protected by the actual structure itself, not arbitrary griefing rules. Also don't conclude that your argument is right immediately after saying it. It doesn't accomplish anything.
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I answered that question. Gems and ores are mineable as normal. They can be found on the surfaces in caves and ravines. Cobble and obsidian can be mined, therefore a cobble generator can be made to get cobble, which is then cooked. I'll update the TL;DR to show that.
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http://www.minecraft...tic-stone-mode/
Based on the community's reaction, it will not be an update. But a plugin like this would really be well needed for a war. And since it makes sense, it would work. Of course, i think the whole art of war community has passed on so i really don't think that it matters anyway.
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Thanks for clarifying what I believe a lot of other people have been trying to argue. I think about 25% of people PvP now because PvP just isn't as rewarding as creative play currently. Right now its not much more than sword fights. I believe that with something like this, it would increase the interest in PvP greatly, for it would be a lot more rewarding. After all, those mob towers, and cannons and traps and cool entrances would accomplish something. Why not would a builder want to test his ability in world domination engineering? I just think that if united by its place in vanilla, it would provide a new aspect to the gameplay of even non combat builders. They would surely want to design their own gadgets that PvPers would be drooling to use. All of that is not possible with a third party mod, because people will not give that respect to a single server. You do not see things on the front page of the forums that say, "Look at this awesome cannon (Only useful on X server)"
In short, I think it would unite a new section of technological development in minecraft, whose practical use in the field would be quite tasty.
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1. I believe it should be accessible to all players, as opposed to those who are willing to play on TFC. The same argument could be used against the pistons mod. Nevertheless, it was implemented.
2.I never said that the original explosives would not exist.
3. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
4.You say that, but you don't provide any examples. Please don't tell me my argument is invalid because you don't wish to hear it. If you don't , that is fine, but keep that to yourself.
I do not think this should exist becuase it would make the game realistic. I believe this should exist because it would make the game entertaining. I think that no whether or not it is original or Mojang has done updates of this scale in the past etc, it would make the game more fun. If it should make the game more fun, why shouldn't it pass through? If one doesnt think it would make the game fun, I would like to hear why, but that should be the center of the argument and not whether mods can achieve this.
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You are making an assumption that just because the update only makes small changes, it only affects a small group of people. The fact that it is optional is not the basis of my argument. My basis is in the "What Does this Accomplish" sections, the actual points of which few people have debated.
This update, would affect a large group of people. Tell me if you disagree that at least 25% of the people who play minecraft play PvP. I am suggesting this to vanilla because I believe that it is a better way that survival should be run in respect to PvP servers that most people would agree is better for PvP. In fact, the only reason why I am saying it is optional is because it is too game changing of a change to be a direct change to the current survival mode.
Therefore, if there is anything to discuss, its whether the bulk of people who play PvP would actually want this change. If not, then yes, its pleasing to a small enough group of people that it should be implemented as a mod. If most PvPers would agree that indestructible stone would be better, then it affects a large enough group of people that it is a worthwhile update.
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That's a good point that it might not be worth mojang's effort for something that might not be entirely different. But if the change is small, is not the effort required also small, and if the amount of change were directly proportional to the amount of effort, the effort to change ratio would not change would it? In another words, the yield would still be in proportion with the effort.
Saying that it is the worst argument you have ever seen does not add to the argument, nor does sarcasm. But that's not my argument for why the game mode should exist. It's simply a reply to another argument against the idea which you took out of context.
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In response to the first statement:
Search Engines are consistently making their best efforts to refine their search algorithms, so that it is easier to find what one is looking for. This is because they are imperfect in respect to being able to receive semantics from one's mind and match those semantics with those online. You cannot hold me accountable to find something that I do not even know exists. I would have needed to know that Terra Firma Craft had existed in the first place to be able to find it. I searched unbreakable stone minecraft and it was not on the front page of google. For look it up to be applicable, it must be able to be found with only common knowledge, without chance.
In addition, just because a server has something as a mod does not mean it should not be implemented in vanilla. If you disagree, please explain why.
I explained why waterproof TNT cannons would work: The propelling TNT is not waterproof. Waterproof TNT and Absorbent TNT are separate items, and when they are propelled before explosion, they will not destruct the cannon.
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Please explain how it does this, and what adverse effect it would have on the game, if Mojang did implement this, since the primary argument currently seems to be that Mojang should not implement this because it is not different enough.
I also believe I elaborated on how it would be different enough in the "What does this accomplish?" Section. If you disagree, please explain why those pointers either do not accomplish what they say, or why those points are not enough to be worthy of an update. If you are going to argue that a certain point is not true, without disputing the verity of all the points I mentioned, you need to explain why the remaining points that still may be true are insufficient for an update.
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The fact that cobblestone is indestructible by hand makes a huge difference on gameplay. If you look at creative, the only real difference is that you have all blocks at your disposal and you can fly. That does make a difference on the gameplay, of course. What makes you think that the validity of a gamemode is defined by how different the specific implementations are? Just because, as you say, the current gamemodes are "very different", any other gamemode must have entirely different workings? Why is it such a given that game modes cannot be somewhat similar to eachother? How much time does it take to add a gamemode? How much space is there for gamemodes? Must there only be enough that can be counted on the fingers? I understand that some things simply shouldn't be gamemodes, but this serves a purpose (And I'd personally rather argue to the purpose itself of the update. Whether its a mod or a mode is arbitrary).
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The explosives wouldn't really be that new. They would only destroy different things. I see no reason why that would not be implementable. Whether or not someone can make a plugin for something does not really decide whether something should be implemented in vanilla. Pistons were originally a mod. Essentially anybody can make a plugin for anything. They tend to be awkward in quality. A roof would stop people from building over a structure. I was not limiting walls to vertical walls. Now something could be done to solve pillaring, and I'll think about that, since pillaring doesn't have much of a realistic feel to it.