Minecraft Forums

Quote from vindew

First off make your links clickable please, second your stance on pay to win servers horrible.Pay to to pwn is a horrible way of thinking about it, one that has caused this mess to start with.You encourage p2w you have no say.

I did not make my link clickable because if the spam filter would likely filter it. (it did for my linkless post)I was being sarcastic. To say you can't win in minecraft servers is an invalid point, seeing that there are clearly goals to the game and achieving those could be considered winning. Its not a predefined goal, but everyone's idea of winning is different, and by paying for advantages to reach those goals would be defined as paying to win. Then again, the issue is on advantages not winning.Dismissing someone's argument based on their stance isn't how you support your own arguments either. Nor does calling them "horrible" with no valid counterpoint.

Quote from Metamorphic_Fish

I think that was about selling capes, not sure about mods that allow you to see capes.

I know optifine has mod donator capes, so I could forsee servers making a compulsory mod to implement capes should mod capes be allowed

First off, let me set it clear that I support neither the pay to win servers or this new EULA. However considering the fact that this post was about the EULA and how it is not pratical, I will not digress into discussing how pay to win is unfair.Side note, if capes are banned, what about mods like optifine that have capes for donators? if those are allowed just have a requirement to install a mod that implements the capes client side.Make no mistake, I am against the whole concept of any player being able to gain any advantage by means of paying what the EULA terms as "hard currency", but then again I make my stand by simply not playing on those servers that do so. However, I do feel that it is the server owner's right to modify and/or customise the gameplay experience however he likes, including implementing RMT (real money trading) or betting/gambling based on such. The reason I say this is because should players still feel that its fair and moral for such activities to take place, they would still log on to play and people would still spend their money. Should the players find it unfair, the free playing population would leave and with less players the paying population would thus follow. This would mean that soon, all such servers would die out should they bring it past socially acceptable standards. However, since this clearly isn't the case as of today I see no need to enforce any rules or regulations as to how server owners should operate. If they want to use some method as a revenue generation technique, let it be, unless it harms Mojang directly. If you don't like it, there's no shortage of servers on the internet to join. No one is forced to play on any particular server, and you could either join another or start your own. You purchased the game, and the server software. You did not purchase the rights to a "fair and balanced experience", so either find one or create your own instead of forcing others to do so.Next issue would be the actual enforcement of the EULA. A law is useless without enforcement, and the enforcement of such rules over the internet would be very costly. Here's why: given the large amount of minecraft servers, should all the servers band together and ignore the EULA it would be impossible for Mojang to address each case, given by user report or by having a team of people discover the cases. To get the server to actually stop (fyi, "no you pls stahp" will have absolutely no effect through the internet, people will not listen unless there are consequences) they would have to file lawsuits to them and likely escalate it to a court case. I am no legal expert, but as far as I'm aware they would either need to have a huge legal department and lots of time and money to pursue each and every case.Well as for the servers that do make it big, I would put it this way: this issue of RMT has been around in the gaming world for a long time, and is so widespread not even companies twice the size of Mojang can deal with. Why? Because people want it, and they will have it. No matter what happens players still can trade their soft currency for hard currency without the knowledge of the server owners, or for the sharing of player accounts to grind xp or rank or farm resources. This in fact causes harm to the servers as instead of them getting the revenue to keep their servers running they are going to whoever is sitting there for hours playing on behalf of the player or the owner's little sister who can "without" the owner's knowledge get console access and sell credits spawned in to the black market.(just kidding)And to disallow payment for minigames is just absurd. All you are doing is forcing people to start a separate pay to enter server and put the minigames there. Difference? none. except inconveniencing the owners and players.Or what if a player builds their own minigame and demands RMT for entrance? Now is the server supposed to do something about it? Are the server rules that affect player behaviour on all servers? That's gonna be as effective as banning swearing in all minecraft games."Soft currency is available in-game only, and has no real-world value." Face it, the from the currency to the diamonds to the dirt blocks, they ALL have real world value when someone will trade it for cash. As long as there's equivalent exchange between all the currencies, regardless of the medium, (which there always is), the RMT banning effort will come crashing down.On the topic of removing particular gameplay features for some people, there are ways around it that would not break the EULA. A loose example is to have a premium server where ores are abundant and/or has item spawning, and players could sell those items back to the server for soft currency, which may be shared with another server indirectly (extreme example would be selling those free items for cash under the contract that that same amount would be used to purchase back items from the original server). Since they could buy items from the original server, it would be as good as allowing the spawning of items for donators, but doesn't break the rule of any part of the original server being unavailable to anyone, since the server where items are spawned has a different address altogether. If that is defined as "benefits carry over", then you got to ban people from saying "hey you've got a headstart on this server, give me a diamond here and I'll help you in another server". And that is gonna be hell hard to track. Also, "benefit" is hard to track too, befriending a good player in one server so he would fight with you instead agaisnt you in another is a benefit passed from one server to another.By the way, if you're REALLY free you could create two servers, one f2p and one p2p, having the p2p one holding all the benefits and have a plugin control NPCs that represent the players on the p2p server and vice-versa. Its theoretically two servers, and all players on the same server get the same things, but the end result is still the p2p players spawn raping the f2p NPCs on one server and the f2ps getting spawnraped by the p2p NPCs on the other server. Only difference is having the spend more on server cost and time to write a plugin.On the issue of tarnishing the image and reputation of minecraft I have one easy solution: state clearly that any server other than realms is not Mojang endorsed and gameplay experience may vary. This issue would share the line of this "minecraft is for all ages" thing where server owners can clearly put mature content into their servers and therefore "tarnish the reputation of minecraft being a family friendly game", especially with server resource packs around. Not to say its a real problem, (or a problem at all), but its essential to make it clear to the users that past minecraft realms, the forums and the wiki, its the wild west where everything is unregulated and unmoderated. That's how the internet works, and no one can change it.==========Responses to previous posts (to prevent insult to anyone, I will not state which post i'm replying to. Its not targeted at you, and you can't prove it is anyway.)u stupid mojang will come ban your accoun and server if u don listen.Ban/suspend my server? TRY. Its on my machine here, they have no control over it. The server isn't dependant on them, and the best they can do is take legal action i.e send a cease and desist (of which i'll use as free paper)My account? how the hell are they gonna know who I am? i'll just not state who's the owner on the server and use an alias while I login. By the way, if they could they would have banned all those cracked servers that can run independantly from their authentication system.its still their property they can choose wat they wan to do wif it.First of, I bought the game out of goodwill. There are ample cracked servers to play on anyway.Which brings me to my second point: its my brain. I choose what I want to care about.(on a more serious note, I'm pretty sure piracy is a greater problem that whatever we're dealing with here, and dealing with that is WAY easier, but still impossible (look at EA's pathethic attempt))i didnt pay for minecraft to join pay to win servers!True. And you didn't pay for a fair multiplayer experience either. or whatever you deem fair.How about go complain to your ISP that you didn't pay for porn and trolling as part of you internet subscription?don't play on servers you don't like is a bad argument. people will still playwhich means people still support, and so shall go on. I don't care if not buying Justin Bieber's would not help the fact that there are still lots of people buying it, I'll just do my part and not complain about other's preferences.Should they like it, let it be. (even though it annoys me to hear it being played in malls)who pays to cheat?Ask the paid hacked client community, or those people who buy the game just to cheat.(I think they pay to win, not cheat. Cheating is the process, winning is the goal)don't call the servers pay to win because you can't win minecraft.I'll call it pay to pwn. happy? (or pay for advantage)(or win others in PVP, or race to most diamonds or whatever goal there happens to be that is community decided)Its required by law to have an EULA, so don't blame them.Which law? Anyone can write a simple game and release it without an EULA. And what constitutes a game? Is rock paper scissors ileagal because it has no EULA?If a large group of people keep making a ton of false reports then maybe this BS will be removed. Congrats, you have started to understand how the internet works. Give a system, and it WILL be abused.If you flag pointlessly you shall be punished thenIf there's even a possibility of being punished and yet having no benefit, who would report?You report, the server gets taken down, you gain nothing. Must as well deal with what you have or just let it slide.i'll just make some code thing you get from donating, that's not agaisnt the rules.Sure, enjoy your perfect wor
ld where noone leaks the password.This is great! whoo hoo!/ This sucks! *rant rantIdc if you whoo or boo hoo. But hey, free speech.No one gives a damn abt cosmeticsORLY? go search up hat fortress 2. (or dota2)oh noes all the griefers will comelearn to protect your stuff. (ggrks for tutorials)Its not Mojang's responsibility to make their terms griefer deterant.

pastebin c0m / kyvVCB0b
If I reply as the posts come in, it would exceed my 10 post count limit.
If I reply to everything at once, it gets marked as spam for being too long.
Perfect.

First off, let me set it clear that I support neither the pay to win servers or this new EULA. However considering the fact that this post was about the EULA and how it is not pratical, I will not digress into discussing how pay to win is unfair.

Side note, if capes are banned, what about mods like optifine that have capes for donators? if those are allowed just have a requirement to install a mod that implements the capes client side.

Make no mistake, I am against the whole concept of any player being able to gain any advantage by means of paying what the EULA terms as "hard currency", but then again I make my stand by simply not playing on those servers that do so. However, I do feel that it is the server owner's right to modify and/or customise the gameplay experience however he likes, including implementing RMT (real money trading) or betting/gambling based on such. The reason I say this is because should players still feel that its fair and moral for such activities to take place, they would still log on to play and people would still spend their money. Should the players find it unfair, the free playing population would leave and with less players the paying population would thus follow. This would mean that soon, all such servers would die out should they bring it past socially acceptable standards. However, since this clearly isn't the case as of today I see no need to enforce any rules or regulations as to how server owners should operate. If they want to use some method as a revenue generation technique, let it be, unless it harms Mojang directly. If you don't like it, there's no shortage of servers on the internet to join. No one is forced to play on any particular server, and you could either join another or start your own. You purchased the game, and the server software. You did not purchase the rights to a "fair and balanced experience", so either find one or create your own instead of forcing others to do so.

Next issue would be the actual enforcement of the EULA. A law is useless without enforcement, and the enforcement of such rules over the internet would be very costly. Here's why: given the large amount of minecraft servers, should all the servers band together and ignore the EULA it would be impossible for Mojang to address each case, given by user report or by having a team of people discover the cases. To get the server to actually stop (fyi, "no you pls stahp" will have absolutely no effect through the internet, people will not listen unless there are consequences) they would have to file lawsuits to them and likely escalate it to a court case. I am no legal expert, but as far as I'm aware they would either need to have a huge legal department and lots of time and money to pursue each and every case.

Well as for the servers that do make it big, I would put it this way: this issue of RMT has been around in the gaming world for a long time, and is so widespread not even companies twice the size of Mojang can deal with. Why? Because people want it, and they will have it. No matter what happens players still can trade their soft currency for hard currency without the knowledge of the server owners, or for the sharing of player accounts to grind xp or rank or farm resources. This in fact causes harm to the servers as instead of them getting the revenue to keep their servers running they are going to whoever is sitting there for hours playing on behalf of the player or the owner's little sister who can "without" the owner's knowledge get console access and sell credits spawned in to the black market.(just kidding)
And to disallow payment for minigames is just absurd. All you are doing is forcing people to start a separate pay to enter server and put the minigames there. Difference? none. except inconveniencing the owners and players.
Or what if a player builds their own minigame and demands RMT for entrance? Now is the server supposed to do something about it? Are the server rules that affect player behaviour on all servers? That's gonna be as effective as banning swearing in all minecraft games.

"Soft currency is available in-game only, and has no real-world value." Face it, the from the currency to the diamonds to the dirt blocks, they ALL have real world value when someone will trade it for cash. As long as there's equivalent exchange between all the currencies, regardless of the medium, (which there always is), the RMT banning effort will come crashing down.
On the topic of removing particular gameplay features for some people, there are ways around it that would not break the EULA. A loose example is to have a premium server where ores are abundant and/or has item spawning, and players could sell those items back to the server for soft currency, which may be shared with another server indirectly (extreme example would be selling those free items for cash under the contract that that same amount would be used to purchase back items from the original server). Since they could buy items from the original server, it would be as good as allowing the spawning of items for donators, but doesn't break the rule of any part of the original server being unavailable to anyone, since the server where items are spawned has a different address altogether. If that is defined as "benefits carry over", then you got to ban people from saying "hey you've got a headstart on this server, give me a diamond here and I'll help you in another server". And that is gonna be hell hard to track. Also, "benefit" is hard to track too, befriending a good player in one server so he would fight with you instead agaisnt you in another is a benefit passed from one server to another.
By the way, if you're REALLY free you could create two servers, one f2p and one p2p, having the p2p one holding all the benefits and have a plugin control NPCs that represent the players on the p2p server and vice-versa. Its theoretically two servers, and all players on the same server get the same things, but the end result is still the p2p players spawn raping the f2p NPCs on one server and the f2ps getting spawnraped by the p2p NPCs on the other server. Only difference is having the spend more on server cost and time to write a plugin.

On the issue of tarnishing the image and reputation of minecraft I have one easy solution: state clearly that any server other than realms is not Mojang endorsed and gameplay experience may vary. This issue would share the line of this "minecraft is for all ages" thing where server owners can clearly put mature content into their servers and therefore "tarnish the reputation of minecraft being a family friendly game", especially with server resource packs around. Not to say its a real problem, (or a problem at all), but its essential to make it clear to the users that past minecraft realms, the forums and the wiki, its the wild west where everything is unregulated and unmoderated. That's how the internet works, and no one can change it.

==========
Responses to previous posts (to prevent insult to anyone, I will not state which post i'm replying to. Its not targeted at you, and you can't prove it is anyway.)

u stupid mojang will come ban your accoun and server if u don listen.

Ban/suspend my server? TRY. Its on my machine here, they have no control over it. The server isn't dependant on them, and the best they can do is take legal action i.e send a cease and desist (of which i'll use as free paper)
My account? how the hell are they gonna know who I am? i'll just not state who's the owner on the server and use an alias while I login. By the way, if they could they would have banned all those cracked servers that can run independantly from their authentication system.

its still their property they can choose wat they wan to do wif it.

First of, I bought the game out of goodwill. There are ample cracked servers to play on anyway.
Which brings me to my second point: its my brain. I choose what I want to care about.
(on a more serious note, I'm pretty sure piracy is a greater problem that whatever we're dealing with here, and dealing with that is WAY easier, but still impossible (look at EA's pathethic attempt))

i didnt pay for minecraft to join pay to win servers!

True. And you didn't pay for a fair multiplayer experience either. or whatever you deem fair.
How about go complain to your ISP that you didn't pay for porn and trolling as part of you internet subscription?

don't play on servers you don't like is a bad argument. people will still play

which means people still support, and so shall go on. I don't care if not buying Justin Bieber's would not help the fact that there are still lots of people buying it, I'll just do my part and not complain about other's preferences.
Should they like it, let it be. (even though it annoys me to hear it being played in malls)

who pays to cheat?

Ask the paid hacked client community, or those people who buy the game just to cheat.
(I think they pay to win, not cheat. Cheating is the process, winning is the goal)

don't call the servers pay to win because you can't win minecraft.

I'll call it pay to pwn. happy? (or pay for advantage)
(or win others in PVP, or race to most diamonds or whatever goal there happens to be that is community decided)

Its required by law to have an EULA, so don't blame them.

Which law? Anyone can write a simple game and release it without an EULA. And what constitutes a game? Is rock paper scissors ileagal because it has no EULA?

If a large group of people keep making a ton of false reports then maybe this BS will be removed.

Congrats, you have started to understand how the internet works. Give a system, and it WILL be abused.

If you flag pointlessly you shall be punished then

If there's even a possibility of being punished and yet having no benefit, who would report?
You report, the server gets taken down, you gain nothing. Must as well deal with what you have or just let it slide.

i'll just make some code thing you get from donating, that's not agaisnt the rules.

Sure, enjoy your perfect world where noone leaks the password.

This is great! whoo hoo!/ This sucks! *rant rant

Idc if you whoo or boo hoo. But hey, free speech.

No one gives a damn abt cosmetics

ORLY? go search up hat fortress 2. (or dota2)

oh noes all the griefers will come

learn to protect your stuff. (ggrks for tutorials)
Its not Mojang's responsibility to make their terms griefer deterant.