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    posted a message on Spawning rules for passive mobs (cows, chickens, pigs, etc.)
    I'm trying to put together a FAQ for people playing hardcore survival maps like SkyBlock or small "survival island" type maps (see also my sig below). I've read the information on the Wiki with the Spawn page, and from what I can glean from that page, the following rules should apply for spawning passive mobs:
    • Mob Cap of 15 passive creatures in a 17x17 area (unlimited height... not quite a chunk but slightly larger)
    • Blocks they spawn on must be grass blocks, with light level 9 or higher (fully open to the sky is fine, or lit with torches/glowstone/jack o'lanterns should work too)
    • With multiple eligible blocks, the "highest" block in a column of blocks gets preference for spawning
    • No player can be within 24 blocks of the block
    • Passive mobs only spawn every 20 seconds (or an attempt happens about every 20 seconds)
    • Can't be a desert, beach, river, and ocean biomes
    • Must have at least two air blocks above grass blocks
    • Be in the overworld (where you start to play vanilla Minecraft)
    Ocelots and Wolves have special rules which apply to just them, but the above rules also apply for them to spawn as well.

    I'm trying to set up a passive mob spawning area but it seems to me that even if following all of these spawning rules, I'm still having problems getting passive mobs to spawn. Where I'm especially suspect is that the 24 block distance for having passive mobs spawn is something I don't think is happening. While hostile mobs will certainly spawn in a 24+ block distance (meeting their rules for spawning) I think it may be a fair bit further. Having the grass blocks much further away doesn't seem to have an impact either, so I think you must be at some distance between 24 and about 100 blocks away for them to spawn.

    I don't know what the specific distance range is for this to happen is at, and digging through the Minecraft source code (through MCP) doesn't seem to help for me either. In these survival type maps, you are limited on how much dirt you have available, so getting the specific distances is a bit important, where you can hang out and do crafting, mining cobblestone with a lava+water generator, or collecting stuff from a hostile mob farm. I know that you can spawn passive mobs in these kind of maps or situations, I'm just trying to nail down what other conditions might be needed for getting these kind of very useful creatures to spawn for players in survival mode.

    Any help to solve this "problem" would be useful.
    Posted in: Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on "Official" SkyZone mod Let's Play series

    I've decided to let myself become corrupted and join the ranks of video producers for Minecraft videos. My goal in this series is to show off the mod that I've developed as a world generator. The mod that I created has its own thread which can be found here:


    Before you say this is a rip-off of the very famous SkyBlock map designed by Noobcrew, please don't. I consider that to be trolling and such comments are simply unwanted. I acknowledge Noobcrew as the inspiration for this mod and certainly give him credit for establishing a whole genera of Minecraft maps and worlds (there are literally hundreds of maps like his on the Maps forum and a couple original new ones created each week). I have my reasons for creating this as a mod instead of a map, so just leave it there.

    I know that videos about SkyBlock have almost been done to death, so that by itself isn't really all that new. As I'm playing on this world though I do give some insights as to why I created this mod and why I put things in various places in the world generation... sort of a developer thinking and insight.

    I also plan on doing a few mod reviews... mainly for mods that add additional blocks that do something useful or for something that expands gameplay in some way which can also be built with renewable resources. More or less I also plan on making this series a general showcase of the kind of things you can build with primarily renewable resources.

    Please ask any questions you may have about the mod, the way I'm playing, or anything about the videos themselves.

    The YouTube channel can be found here: http://www.youtube.c...B1sYJpw2xKHY_zQ

    Videos I have in the series at the moment include the following:

    Ep. 1 - The Beginning
    You need to start somewhere. A very basic cobblestone generator is created and an introduction to the SkyZone map happens in this video.

    EP. 2 - Mushroom Island
    A bridge is built over to the Mushroom Island part of the world (a small 3x3 block group of Mycelium in the sky) for the purpose of retrieving a melon and a pumpkin. My philosophy of illumination is discussed along with an explanation of the expanded achievements introduced by the SkyZone mod.

    EP. 3 - Cobblestone Generator Prep Work
    Water elevators are demonstrated as a method to build downward when you have nothing underneath a platform. The dirt blocks in the initial island are moved and turned into grass blocks in anticipation of a passive mob spawning area and a tree farm. A platform is built for the AFK Cobblestone Generator.

    EP. 4 - Cobblestone Generator Construction
    A general tutorial about how to build the AFK Cobblestone Generator, or at least the main part of it. The purpose of this revised generator is to efficiently extract cobblestone without needing pistons or other advanced materials.

    EP. 5 - Basic Farming
    An introduction to farming is done, in particular setting up a melon farm and how to build an irrigation channel and a cobblestone generator using only one water source block. A "permanent" tree farm area is built along with a passive mob spawning area, together with an explanation of the rules of passive mob spawns in Minecraft.

    EP. 6 - Sand Island
    Heading off to the Sand island to retrieve the cacti and sugar can, I go into some further discussion of the passive mob spawning rules and show the results of my earlier "experiment" at trying to get some breeding stock for my stockyard area. I happen to be successful at getting a breeding pair of pigs, cows, and sheep, with a chicken thrown in for good measure. After being successful at taking down the sand island and retrieving safely all of the blocks including all of the sugar cane and cacti blocks, I go and do something really stupid by digging out the block under me. Go ahead and laugh... I know you want to see this!

    EP. 7 - Mob Grinder - Part 1
    The need to get some additional kinds of supplies, in particular bonemeal, has made the creation of a way to safely encounter hostile mobs. There are a variety of ways to get this accomplished, but I am presenting a mob grinder that requires no water nor any pistons in order to function. Using just cobblestone and some wood (to make some trap doors) is all that is needed to build this grinder. Construction is divided up into two parts simply because there is so much to show in terms of how to build this grinder.

    EP. 8 - Mob Grinder - Part 2
    The mob grinder is finished up in this episode and is "commissioned". In other words, I go through the mob grinder and take out all of the torches I was using during its construction (a dangerous phase of any mob grinder construction). With at least the first phase of the construction of this mob grinder complete, I also demonstrate how to use the grinder and to retrieve some of the loot given by the mobs. I also use the bones gathered from killing skeletons and apply that to getting some wheat seeds as well as gathering a few flowers for future uses.

    EP. 9 - Enhanced Farming
    With some bones that can be turned into bone meal, I finish off my farm area and start to farm wheat, sugar cane, and cacti as well as expand my melon and pumpkin farms. The key difficulty at this point of the development of this world is that there is only one source block which can be used. It is a bit of a problem, and something I intend to eventually fix. Instead of getting multiple source blocks of water, I build a canal network for distributing this single source block to multiple locations. I also cover some basic of animal husbandry in this episode.

    EP. 10 - Wolf Spawner
    Heading off to the Spruce tree, I build out a path to that island along with a path to the village. I'm not quite ready to expand the village yet, but I do work on trying to get a wolf to spawn in this world. Going back and digging up all of the farms that I built up, I relocate all of the dirt out to the Spruce island in an attempt to get a wolf to spawn out there. To pass the time, I also relocate the cobblestone generator temporarily to a location somewhat near the area I am hoping to get a wolf to spawn.

    EP. 11 - Mooshrooms
    Now that I've been able to get a wolf, I try again at passive spawning, this time trying to get a Mooshroom. The key to this creature is working in the Mushroom Island biome in Minecraft, where I expand the number of Mycelium blocks that exist in this biome area of this world. I also show off the "stockyard" area of my world, which I built as a way to move those animals which I spawned so they would be pulled to a much further distance hoping they wouldn't interfere with the newly spawning animals. I also head to the jungle area, to try and harvest the jungle tree as well as the cocoa bean pod. Unfortunately I don't get any jungle tree saplings.

    EP. 12 - Ocelots and Spiders
    Trying again to get the final creature to spawn in this world and the only remaining passive mob that I don't have yet, I move to build a spawning area for Ocelots. I also demonstrate how to build a sizeable "pond" or fishing hole that can be used to obtain fish, and show off a cocoa bean farm that came from the cocoa bean pod on the jungle tree.

    While waiting for the grass to spread out, I also build a Spider grinder/spawner that doesn't use any water or pistons. It is a very basic design, but reliably produces a large number of spiders that can be used to obtain string in usable quantities.

    EP. 13 - Villagers
    Now that all of the passive mobs have been accounted for and discovered, I turn my attention to the villagers and build a "town hall" that will hopefully encourage the villagers to breed and expand their numbers so I can start trading with them and get some emeralds as well as some of the items that I can't easily obtain.

    The "town hall" is also called a "breeding cell", following a design that I originally saw in a video made by monkeyfarm (and acknowledge his input on the matter).

    A special shout out to the other people who did Let's Play videos of this game prior to my jumping into the water. You gave me inspiration to do this, and I'm grateful for the attention you have given to my mod when it was completely unsolicited. Ditto for the several people who have done general mod reviews as well.
    Posted in: Let's Plays
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    posted a message on Minecraft 1.7.5 modding dead since Minecon 2013 ?
    Quote from Steampump

    We will surely have to wait 1 or 2 years more before real new good mods will be avaible again and new modder are good enough.
    And then we probably will have to pay for the mods in the futur.

    Old modding dead untils new modder generation ? Shure as far i can see.

    While this is zombivying an old thread, the topic is still relevant as modding is still very much in the past and dying a very painful death. Unlike what was claimed above, MCP is also definitely dead, or at least stuck on 1.7.2 and no reasonable expectation that it will ever be updated to 1.8 whenever Mojang starts to release that content. Heck, I doubt MCP will even be updated to any other version of 1.7 either. Patience doesn't hold a candle here.

    This is not a very good situation for Mojang, so far as staying fresh with the current version of the game. Gone are the days where an update would happen and the 3rd party API libraries would be updated in mere hours, or at least no more than a weekend and gradually refined over the course of a month or so to pretty good stability.

    New leaders can show up and take over the development process, but until that happens, modding is pretty much dead. Some cool ideas are being tried with the old tools, but they are rapidly losing relevance and make a mockery of what was once upon a time a very vibrant modding community.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Minecraft 1.7.5 modding dead since Minecon 2013 ?
    Quote from Zeno410

    Oh, BTW, do you know where I can submit deobfuscations? That's not obvious either, and it doesn't google well.

    You can submit new changes to the deobfuscation database for MCP with the IRC bot. I've done a few of them as I've found a few items here and there, but I'll admit it is a real pain in the behind and definitely not obvious nor documented very well. A web form submission process would definitely be much easier to use.

    It seems like the entire MCP community sort of has a huge filtering process that deliberately makes it complicated for anybody to help or even use their tools, and a sort of "I don't give a damn" attitude towards trying to help anybody get started with mod development. It is a very steep learning curve in terms of trying to get into mod development where you are expected to know a whole lot even before you start.

    It is also this same attitude that the Forge team has, which doesn't take kindly to any sort of criticism and openly rejects with a very snotty attitude toward any changes or tweaks. If this is what the official API becomes in terms of people using it and Mojang's attitude toward new mod/plug-in developers they might as well not bother with the API for that matter.

    What should happen is for a standard Java compiler (there are several) to be able to import the Java API prototypes and no need for anything like MCP or other jury rigged tools. A simple compile and dropping the compiled jar file (with new textures in the jar file) for any extensions to Minecraft is all it should take. We are a long way from seeing that happen and it doesn't seem to even be remotely a goal at the moment.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from Milikeny

    So what your saying, is that, the updates ruled as your ultimate buying point and that you as an pretentious consumer feel they should be obligated to cater to your very will in devoting unnecessary resources to better tend to an already released product because they said they were working on something, but it isn't getting done fast enough. Yes, I was so entirely and blatantly wrong. And you're right, Mods will be the entire focus of the game further on, I don't see how that ends its life-cycle.

    There is a world of difference between working on something that takes time and something that isn't even being worked upon. And yes, mods have been a major reason why I bought additional copies of Minecraft as it has allowed me to customize content on the worlds that I'm building with others. In other words, it helps me to play the game in the way I want to play.

    Why is that such a major crime? If you have ever been in a business, you should know that "the customer is always right". If you want to make money, you follow what your customers want. I'm not saying that I am insisting upon this, but I am suggesting it is a way that Mojang can capitalize upon their existing assets and be able to continue to earn more money in the future.

    No, no, no. You don't understand. You don't just get this stuff.

    I think I understand this stuff far more than you give me credit. Having been with several start-up companies and some well established companies, I understand what it takes to earn a profit off of software development.

    You are given it in the same way you get free products in Costco and similar stores. They aren't doing this to please you, or to tickle your god damn fancy and you're a complete and utter ***** for even assuming that. These devs could be making an insanely huge profit simply by charging CENTS for each damn update but don't, because the goodness in their hearts makes them feel better, and that it works great as a marketing ploy.

    Where have I stated that I insist that Mojang should give this stuff away? It is a good marketing ploy and an interesting business model. What you are missing is that by developing mods for Minecraft, I am adding value to their product for free (or at least no investment on the part of Mojang besides creating the API or the opportunity to use a 3rd party API like Forge). That should count for something too.

    You don't deserve it, nor should Mojang devote more than a very small team to the furthering of Minecraft, because in reality, this game has already made them a lot of money, and future updates are just to keep us hooked. If you don't like this, you can complain, you can boycott, but in no way whatsoever are you entitled to having more resources devoted to your pathetically obsessive desire.

    I also deserve to devote no more of my time or resources into Minecraft either. That is a two way street, and if Mojang wants to take their ball & bat and move along telling me to take a hike, I will acknowledge the attitude and move on too.

    The problem is that you are the one being a ***** here and telling me to get lost and that I'm no longer wanted here, either posting on these forums or even bothering to live. Jeb and Dinnerbone may not be active with developing the API, but at least they (and especially Notch & Carl in terms of who really matters for policy) don't mind me earning a few bucks from making mods and posting some videos. All of that is also more or less free advertising for Minecraft and Mojang as a game studio, to which I am grateful.

    I am so grateful that your attitude is not that of the Mojang staff, because I would rage quit right now if this was a typical kind of post on these forums. You really should be ashamed of yourself for this kind of idiotic post that seems to disregard that real people with real feelings and emotions are on the other side of these conversations.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on Podzol spread *now with poll*
    Quote from 123nart

    Podzel is basically leaves on grass, and leaves can't spread "in da reel wulrd".

    I don't think I'd really care if they changed it, even if it doesn't make sense.

    While Podzel doesn't "spread" in the real world, it is possible to scoop up some Podzel IRL and come back awhile later to find some new Podzel ground in the same place. The issue here is that this particular block type is non-renewable when in fact it is something that is caused from an organic process.

    Fine, don't let the stuff "spread" like grass or mycellium. But there should be some sort of mechanic that could make this block legitimately a renewable resource where a player could use a silk touch pickaxe, remove a bunch of Podzel, replace it with plain dirt blocks, and over time some Podzel can be harvested again. Having it form under a Spruce tree (especially when there is only one block of air between the dirt and the leaves) seems like a reasonable way to make that happen.

    Juist go into some forest with a bunch of pine trees and you will definitely see this soil type, where you can happily dig it out with a shovel and definitely turn it into a "renewable resource " IRL. It just seems silly to make this stuff more rare than diamonds and similarly non-renewable.
    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 1

    posted a message on Minecraft 1.7.5 modding dead since Minecon 2013 ?
    The major setback and #1 thing that has kept modding from going forward has been the unstable status of MCP (Minecraft Coding Pack) for the more recent versions of Minecraft. MCP at the moment is the foundation for everything else which has been happening in the modding community and is so damn useful that to make mods without it makes life much, much harder.

    MCP is so useful that if the current MCP team wants to bail out and stop doing their thing, I'm certain another group would come along and do the same thing. Unfortunately there is as you've pointed out a changing of the guard as it were even on the MCP where some new volunteers really do need to step up and help out with MCP, and at the same time the MCP guys need to be a little more accepting of some new blood to get things going.

    The other thing that really hurts the modding community is that Risugami, the creator of ModLoader, has all but disappeared and quit updating ModLoader itself. His most recent version was for 1.6.2 (he never updated to 1.6.4 even) and was one of the few major mod development tools developed independently of MCP. For awhile I even developed mods without MCP (it is possible) simply using ModLoader. but with that also dead it means that any mods must come up with your own way to hack into Minecraft more directly. Direct class manipulation mods are still possible, but it also creates some huge incompatibilities unless you are very careful as a mod developer.

    I don't completely understand the problems that the MCP team has been facing, but the loss of Searge (at least the independence that he had before) and a massive change in the code base that required remapping nearly the whole game has certainly hurt. Apparently MCP also upgraded many of their development tools at the same time.... which also slowed them down but also should make it easier for MCP to continue forward into the future.

    In other words, it has been a perfect storm to really hurt the modding community. A whole lot of bad luck, several key mod developers who used to make base components that other mod developers depended on that have dropped out, and in general a turnover of mod developers in general has made the current current situation. There is another thread about speculation as to the current state of the plug-in API.... something that I'm on record as stating it too is dead in the water and not even remotely in development (the loss of Grum has been painful there and only adding to the mess).

    Hopefully the mod community will pull out of this current funk and make Minecraft back into the heavily modded game it used to be. It should be alarming to Mojang though if the mod developers simply move onto other games (as I'm sort of doing myself now).
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from skinny121

    Since 1.3 SSP and SMP are the same, as SSP uses an internal server, nearly everything is done on the server know anyways, only rendering and other UI stuff as well as some prediction stuff i think(which i don't know how they are going to deal with). They have been rewriting the system since the SSP/SMP merge.

    Not quite. While the code base is identical in terms of things like block & terrain generation or what classes performed tasks like weather effects (this was a real pain in the behind prior to 1.3), from a modding point of view there still are some substantial differences between SSP and SMP.

    The key component to making that happen indeed would be transmitting block models, ID "handles" (including block names and internal code values), as well as texture data including transmitting image files from the server to the client. At the moment the assumption is that everybody has all of the Minecraft image assets (or their own private texture packs.... arguably a form of modding by itself that already is a "plug-in") and there is no need to transmit that information. This is why modded Minecraft servers with custom blocks still need a client-side patch.

    Another huge thing that it seems like Mojang at least in the past talked about is a sort of "everything is a plug-in" concept where even basic blocks like a stone block or a dirt block are plug-ins.... supplied by default and installed automatically when you install or upgrade Minecraft direct from Mojang but still plug-ins none the less. I hope this is the direction that Jeb and Dinnerbone are going to take the API as it would be the kind of flexibility that I am looking for. This folds into the block data transmittal from servers to clients naturally as if everything is a plug-in, everything would also need to be transmitted from the server to the client to permit clients to "learn" what blocks exist on that server from even the most humble and basic blocks.

    I would even dare say that some performance gains and certainly some major bug fixes might even happen doing this strictly because the data is going to be encapsulated much better with a strict firewall between block data and the core engine. It is easy as a software developer to get lazy and throw exceptions and quirky little hacks into the core part of your software simply to get the job done at the moment. Minecraft is full of these little "hacks" that Notch randomly threw in as he was developing the game (and driving the current developers nuts over trying to fish them out).

    Regardless, this almost seems like Minecraft 2.0 territory, which is where comments like that of Zeno410 above seem to be spot on about. I still insist that all of this is irrelevant to the basic goal of producing an API even if they are laudable goals by themselves. It every well may require a clean-sheet rewrite of the whole game. If Mojang is going to spend those kind of resources and effort, they might as well charge players for a new version of the game as well.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from skinny121

    You and many others on this thread act like you know everything about the API but in actually fact many of you don't even know the basic requirements for the API stated by Mojang many times like there can't be any client side plugin code. So the new system has to be able represent those dynamic block models(I can see how they are probable planning to do it within the block model json files) and the block models are required for API.

    That is not a requirement for the API, even if it may be a goal for Mojang. The issue you are talking about is for players who want to join a server and face problems connecting to that server if they lack a given client-side plug-in at the same time. Minecraft players have been working with the current need for client-side mods/plug-ins for many servers so I don't see that as a hard requirement.

    In many ways it seems like some folks such as yourself are over thinking all of the technical requirements needed for the API. A goal like this is a nice piece of polish and makes the API incredibly useful, as well as simplifying the experience for novice players who may not want to mess with installing plug-ins themselves, but it most definitely is not necessary for the API. The new system (or even the need for a new system) certainly does not need anything you are suggesting here. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, but it is not necessary for a proper API and certainly not needed for a basic API to get the mod community away from cracking open the minecraft.jar file as has been happening until now.

    I think they are slowly working on the API, they want to do the API properly so it is fast(performance wise) and powerful and doesn't break with every update like forge and bukkit(which are hacked together as they can't distribute minecraft.jar). I think they don't mind that much that it is taking this long as they know when it is released, if good it will bring a lot of players back/attract new players. Although i wish they tell us more information like there road map(what they sill need to do) and some specifics about the API.

    What breaks with every update is the obfuscation that Mojang insists upon when they distribute the minecraft.jar file. Even then, it only breaks when the class names change as a result of adding a new class or having the obfuscation shift around a bit more unpredictably.

    Again, I think you are way over thinking what is really needed for at least the kernel and start of an API. It certainly doesn't need to be a full featured set of interfaces at the beginning and should be something seen as a work in progress by itself... and at the moment there isn't even a kernel of an API to suggest what it is that Mojang is even working on.

    I'll admit that I don't know what the final API is going to look like for Minecraft, but I do know a thing or two about API architectures (having written a few myself) and at the moment Minecraft has almost nothing in terms of an API of any kind other than what the mod community has developed. The point of this thread is to even go so far as to suggest Mojang hasn't even realistically started any sort of API development work of any kind and really doesn't have a clear roadmap in terms of what they want the API to eventually look like.

    An API for 3rd party content developers seeking to extend Minecraft is a definite long-term goal, and the Mojang staff (including Notch) certainly understand that the modding community is a key part of their success, but converting that support from the modding community into a more mainstream supported experience for novice players through a plug-in API needs some more attention and something that currently seems lacking almost to the point of not even really existing at the moment. It certainly seems like previous attempts at creating the API have been completely abandoned so at this point it can at best be considered a blank sheet of paper with the words "Plugin API" written at the top is all that currently exists.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 2

    posted a message on Is the MOD API actually being developed?
    Quote from KyoShinda

    ----Yes, base modification is the entry-level version of modding. It's not often that those mods can work together and everyone likes having 13 mods at once for some reason. They really need to spend an entire update on the API then give us a comprehensive manual that would teach even the entry-level modders how to make compatible mods using the new system. That's just a pipe dream however.

    One thing to point out, and I'm extremely sympathetic about this too, is that Mojang is still a small company and will never be able to generate the API documentation and tutorials that a large company like Microsoft could, using the DirectX manuals and software examples/templates for comparison. The only way that Mojang is possibly going to be able to get the API properly documented is to get volunteers from the mod developer community assisting on something like a wiki.... which I should point out is also how Mojang currently documents simply playing Minecraft in the first place. Notch couldn't afford to hire somebody to package the game in a real fancy manner with a printed manual (even a PDF file) explaining how to play Minecraft when he started, and at this point it is sort of useless to even try.

    Then again, this is why I say that the community engagement in the development of the API is a sign that nothing is really happening either. If Mojang is going to be dismissing these kind of volunteers, it will be indicating a significant shift in how they operate as a company. I agree with you that spending several months dedicated mostly (it doesn't even need to be 100%, but it does need to be a major push) to working on the API would be a good idea. If they are going to be writing this manual or even coming up a tutorial of some sort, it will take even more time.

    To me, given the nature of Mojang and the depth of capabilities of the fans... especially the mod development community... that sort of engagement needs to happen again but with some real progress and some clearly defined goals. The API needs to be started in some fashion, not as a fully completed thing but with a couple of pieces that would allow for some elementary modding to take place and be properly treated as a work in progress that will take multiple updates to complete. Simply to keep the developers from getting crushed by the fans, there needs to be some sort of "moderator" group that can communicate with the developers, where legitimate questions about how things work and parameters in the API can be asked, but to also filter out FAQ type questions that could be answered by experienced plug-in developers who are not a part of Mojang. Regardless, some sort of communication channel must happen between the plug-in developers and Mojang (both ways) in order for the API to be successfully developer at a reasonable cost to both Mojang and not burn out the Minecraft development team.

    Dinnerbone should not be expected to write the full and complete documentation for the API himself. Besides, there are plenty of fans who would be willing to do that as volunteers.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
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