I believe it would be simpler if moderators would refuse to delete posts that have already been quoted. Deleting part of a conversation just confuses members.
Honestly, I agree. That's not the point though; if they are going to delete a post, especially one that's been quoted, then yes. They should say that has been deleted; regardless of whether it's off-topic or not, because at least then it's still a means of communication.
I already explained above (post #23) that we can't solve this problem with our current constraints (this software) but we have potential solutions long term. I assumed you had read this post and were continuing the discussion because it did not resolve your concerns, hence the assumption you were upset / angry about infractions.
I didn't see it because I was working on something else and ended up missing it. Either way, I disagree with that kind of policy - why should they be invisible? Sure, I can understand it on posts that are inflammatory or what not, but not on posts that are pulled by request, especially when it has been quoted and talked about by others. All it does is lead to more confusion as to why those posts disappeared, or rather, why our posts disappeared when there was nothing wrong with them. It's very irritating to have what you wrote suddenly gone because someone else requested their post to be removed, because you do not know why they're gone. You just know they are. It comes across as some kind of censorship.
Then please provide some examples I can look into, because as explained above the posts that went "missing" from the Christmas thread were removed because the person that posted them requested they be deleted -- and the subsequent posts were deleted because they quoted that person -- except for the post asking "why are they deleted?!?!" which was deleted because it didn't provide any value.
Then someone should have communicated that! That's exactly what I'm saying here, our posts disappear because one person asks that theirs gets deleted, and yet no one informs us of this at all. Would it be so difficult to at least say these posts were deleted by request of author or something, especially when some of them are posts by those of us who actually want to continue the discussion? This is exactly the kind of lack of communication I'm talking about.
For, what, the third time, this is not about infractions. That is not a problem here. The problem is that we have posts that go missing without any warning and the likes. That we have a problem of inexperience making poor calls and then having trouble trying to actually resolve. That we have a problem of cherry-picking. Nobody, no one person, is refuting that flaming should not be accounted for.
Snide implies I'm being underhanded or indirect. I am explicitly stating that you are too immature to properly handle these topics, as demonstrated by the way you post. There are no snide remarks in my post.
You should trust us because for a lot of staff members here this website is a significant part of their life, for me it is my life and has been for nearly half of a decade. I only want this forum to succeed. If you choose to assume our interest is in sabotaging the forum, so be it, but that isn't true.
Disparaging. Derogatory. Which ever you prefer. Either way, no, if anything, that makes me question you even more. It makes me question your own personal interests in comparison to ours. It makes me question your tactless lack of even an attempt of interest.
I was not insulting you, I was presenting my opinion on why you are not above anyone else here and why the PPNS section is no more "mature" than any other. Yes you discuss controversial topics, but you discuss them in a childish way.
Just as you are now? We ask for some consideration, and instead your interest in expressing an opinion on the matter is to address any actual concerns, but rather berate us. Again, why should I trust you? You look to my history, but have you ever bothered to read what it is we say? Ever bothered to actually read what arguments we have made to each other? Even at my worst, I still try to make a point to what ideas I want to get across.
And this is not the point here. The point is that we feel there is a poor management of that particular forum and poor communication by the staff. Maybe I should not have "done the adult thing" and brought it up if this is the kind of treatment I receive. Yes, I have problems, okay? What, you want me to admit it? Well there. However, this is not about us being better than anyone else.
What else was I to expect but a brick wall? I came in here expecting nothing less, and my expectations were met. You seem not to care about our concerns, as clearly noted by your focus not on what we are trying to get across but instead to criticize us, to kick them while they're down, as the saying goes. As someone said, "circling the wagons." Not once have any of you address the problem of inexperience, the problem of miscommunication or lack thereof, or other issues we have had and expressed.
Something to point out, you mentioned citricsquid "daring to insult our intelligence". However, go re-read his posts. There are no insults to be found.
No, I find his criticism of our lack of "deep and meaningful understanding" to be pretty insulting, especially when he does not know what I know, he does not know of my educational background, and unless I'm mistaken, he likely has never even set foot into that forum let alone actually read anything we have had to say which I dare say suggests that several of us do have quite a degree of understanding of these topics. It's basically calling us immature idiots who know not of what they speak. So it's okay for him to insult us without consequence? Well talk about hypocrisy.
It caters to a sub-set of teenagers with exaggerated views of themselves. If the users of PPNS were mature adults discussing mature topics, they wouldn't all have a history of insulting each other. I can see your infractions: you don't act like a mature adult. Whether you're talking about Minecraft and Terraria or abortion and genocide, the majority of PPNS posters are immature. Just glancing over the behaviour of frequent posters in that section makes it abundantly clear that there is a serious lack of maturity.
Oh please, as the actual head of the site, that's quite the way to present yourself. Just throw us under the bus with such snide commentary. Yes, we can get vicious towards each other, but that is bound to happen when dealing with controversy. It's part of the territory. You deal with it. If anything, we're actually more tame than a lot of others you can find. But that's not the point, this does not address any of the problems and is merely a middle finger to us. This is the reason why we do not trust the staff, you show us no real reason to trust you, and this certainly does not help.
If the topics discussed are so "sensitive" in nature, why do you feel it appropriate to accuse people of being mentally ill with no regard for what you're actually saying? If you had any deep and meaningful understanding of sensitive topics you would not be so brazen in the way you insult people.
Yes, it's not like we go into the meaning of the nature of personhood, or the cultural significance of religion, or the flaws of various political philosophies, or the constitutionality or invasion of privacy, or the treatment of homosexuals, or the breakdown of modern-day feminism, or the inactivity of addressing gun violence. You can sneer at us all you want, but that does not change the fact that these topics are controversial topics. The fact you dare to insult our intelligence makes you no more above us than on our own ground. Just because I may insult others does not mean I do not understand the subjects at hand, does not mean I lack "deep and meaningful understanding." And as I have expressed, the idea that you equate them to criticize us is just as much an insult. You are no better than we are.
I would, I have done moderating before. However, I also highly doubt I would be granted such a promotion with my history - indeed, you seem to think very lowly of all of us who frequent PPNS.
Firstly, there's 9 of us. 9 off topic sectional moderators that can help out with that section. Do you know how many forum members there are? 2.4 million. That's 266,000 members/OT mod. Don't expect us to be perfect or get everything.
Secondly, and the main point of the post. If we make a mistake, try approaching us in a nice manner. Some infractions may be judgement calls and some mods may moderate differently. If you think we made a mistake, and then you PM us, berating us with expletives, calling us stupid, and calling the forum corrupt, do you honestly expect to get your infraction overturned? Now, if I had a member message in a kind manner, remaining respectful and nice, I would be a lot more inclined to look into the infraction to see if my judgement was wrong.
Lastly, internet arguing is something that is hard to get good at doing. If a thread is created in PPNS with the sole purpose to argue over something, then you better be careful what you post, because if you are arguing, it's extremely easy to slip an insult, flame remark, or bad word in there, resulting in an infraction. Be careful with what you say.
Which if anything further supports that it is a forum that could benefit from someone who is specifically dedicated to that forum. It is nowhere near as wild in its activity as other forums and sections, yet is also much more complicated in its subject matter. And furthermore, you speak of treating the staff with respect yet offer it in a tone that appears to be just as disrespectful. You assume on the problem at hand that it is simply a matter of missing something every once in a while, or that it is a matter of disrespect towards the staff.
When we see posts suddenly disappear with no warning at all and without any kind of explanation, posts that, as far as anyone else can tell, are not breaking any rules, or that when we receive infractions while allowing plenty other goings-on to continue without ramification on a repeated basis, when we get busted inappropriately or otherwise by more staff than spaces on a roulette wheel, especially in such a small and profound forum, it does not speak well to instilling a sense of trust in the staff responsible for such oversights.
Yes, I know there's a lot of people, and yes, I know you are volunteers, and yes, I know you are not perfect, I do not need to be condescended upon to understand that. However, that does not justify allowing such problems to persist, not when it has been a long-standing problem for us and, up until now, we have kept quiet about it outside of private discussion. Perhaps it should have been brought up earlier, but it wasn't, and at least we are bringing it up now.
I am sorry, but I do not recognize you as someone who has ever spoken to us in there, who has ever joined in our discussion, who has ever shown any interest. So my apologies, but I cannot in good conscious trust what you have to say in regards to such a matter. Yes, we argue. And that is a crucial part of our discourse; however, to have those argument suddenly gone with no explanation at all, but the guy who's basically advocating hate speech on a post right above - no, not even that, but quoted in - the post in question is allowed to continue without any kind of consequence, the people who say far worse things who are completely ignored while those few who are tagged suddenly become the bad guys? That's ridiculous. And we've all seen it happen numerous times, those of us who are commonly found there.
If you're so overburdened, then maybe the site needs more management, or a better means of managing. That is not our fault. Nor should your personal opinions towards us actually play into a decision, that is not a good sign. I get it, you're only human, but you can at least attempt to be objective in your decision. If you are there to enforce the rules, the rules do not care about what we think of each other. And I am sorry once again, but if we can criticize each other, then why should I not be allowed to express some degree of dissatisfaction or criticism against what I think is wrong?
And of course, as Abandon_Ships mentions, some of us feel there is a problem of inexperience, especially in regards to the sensitive nature of the topics that we discuss.
1. This is a MINECRAFT forum first and foremost, the off topic section isn't the main focus of this website, and all sections follow the same general rules aswell as some section specific rules.
Yet that does not permit or excuse neither overreach nor inaction. Regardless of the main focus of the site, its brass still created these sections and still holds responsibility in their management.
2. Us moderators and the Admin are here voluntarily and help out n our spare time to be helpful, we do sometimes miss things, we can't check every single thread/post for rules breaks
However, when it is a consistent and reoccurring problem, then it is an issue.
Right, so we who frequent the Politics, Philosophy, News & Society - henceforth PPNS, as we call it - forum have noticed several issues with the staff on this site and their treatment of such a forum.
First and foremost, it is unlike any other forum on the site, and specifically within the Off-Topic section. It caters to a sub-sect of specific-minded individuals, those of a more adult-oriented mindset in regards to controversial and can-often-be heated discussions. Aside from the occasional kid who wanders in, spouting nonsense that they simply parrot from what they've been told only never return to again, it's very much not a target towards such a demographic as the rest of the site. And I dare say it certainly generally isn't within their range of interest. I mean, the median age is probably some where in the mid 20's, with average age possibly something similar.
Secondly, in relation to the prior, it is staffed in a way that is both mishandled and suspect. Mods who simply go by reports without any kind of interest in context of the situation or seem to appear simply for the sake of "fulfilling duties," or perhaps better expressed as boredom with power, rush in ban-happy (well, warning-happy), essentially just cherry-picking the first things they see. Hell, I know I've had plenty of warnings that were inappropriately handed out, and I almost never make a post anywhere else on the entirety of the site. The most damning example that I can think of would be receiving a warning for "troll-calling," when in proper context, it was clearly in reference to a stereotype. Or just recently, several posts were deleted in a topic about the origins in Christmas. Deleted without any kind of warning once so ever, and as far as anyone who actually saw them could tell, violated no rules at all. This isn't the first time either; we've seen posts suddenly gone without explanation before, and while that may be good and all for some one-line spam post - and funnily enough, just happened a little while ago - it's not okay to a post that can amount to two or three paragraphs-worth, not without at least some kind of explanation as to what was wrong.
While I obviously do not nor dare not speak for everyone, I have seen expressed by several other of my fellow PPNS frequenters a dissatisfaction with the modding in this particular forum. Complaints of hypocrisy, complaints of overreach, complaints of lack of communication, complaints of trust in the staff. Fellow commentators who I hope will join in on this discussion with their own opinions on the matter.
Ideally, to offer at least an idea of a solution, would to have a mod more-specifically appointed to moderate that forum at the cost of other mods being allowed such equal oversight. It may be a lively forum, but it isn't exactly like the main body of the site. Especially if it's someone who at least expresses some interest in it. Leniency is a must such topics, they often can be controversial and heated - while I'm not saying flaming should be permitted, there needs to be someone who at least understands that there may be strong emotion tied in with such a discussion. Not someone who just reads a report then hops on it like a cat on a mouse without any forethought. At the very least, show some respect for what it is and how it differs.
As stated, my consultation has been drafted into the discussion. Upon further study of Daft Punk, it is within my conclusion that while sorcery was indeed employed, it is not quite as suggested. Rather, it is within my "professional" opinion that there may in fact be even greater factors at play.
I have concluded as such: Daft Punk likely underwent various procedures of possibly-futuristic cybernetic implants of ocular and neuro-synthetic natures. With these implants situated and active, they used dark arts from the blackest minds of the occult, perhaps even as far as to commune with the servants of the Great Old Ones.
Upon initiation and sacrifice, the band learned the secrets of summoning. Indeed, spirits were summoned, but not to possess the machines, no. Instead, these spirits were used to possess the cybernetic implants, like an occult Ghost in the Shell. These spirits control Daft Punk during their music production and performances, enhanced by the implants to perform their inhuman abilities!
Natural selection leaves the survivors STRONGER and better!
No it doesn't. Its a misnomer. It's about the most adaptable who survives. Prey must adapt to changes in their predators. Predators must adapt to changes in their prey. And both must adapt to their environment. Natural selection leaves those who have adapted the best to changing circumstances of environment.
There's only one best apocalypse, and that's Ragnarök. There are none better. None. A massive battle royale between gods, giants, monsters, and the dead all while the worlds are burning, the great tree is falling, and more blood and war than even Hollywood could make happen.
Overconfidence and over-specialization leads to your downfall.
And you can only get so worked up over it for the upteenth time before it becomes just another "symbolic" vote of some stupid bull that hasn't a snowball's chance in Hell to pass.
What, should someone make a new and dramatic topic every time the Republicans try to repeal Obamacare? [40 times]
Jealousy on their part? I would say yes. I think the issue here isn't necessarily because you're married, but rather about taking advantage of people. You're being taken advantage of by your friends who want to use you as, well, what seems to be like a lure to fish. And they're the net. If that metaphor makes sense. For the women though, it is their decision to do what they want as well. They do not have to listen to you, nor cooperate. I don't think you should necessarily feel guilty, but you shouldn't be a thrall to your friends either.
To put it simply, I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but you may want to put your foot down as well.
A basic understanding of biology. I repeat: if we even allow for the not-possible that they did evolve, either they would have gone extinct, or they would be so similar to normal fish that they would lose the semblance of being mermaids and simply be fish.
0
Honestly, I agree. That's not the point though; if they are going to delete a post, especially one that's been quoted, then yes. They should say that has been deleted; regardless of whether it's off-topic or not, because at least then it's still a means of communication.
I didn't see it because I was working on something else and ended up missing it. Either way, I disagree with that kind of policy - why should they be invisible? Sure, I can understand it on posts that are inflammatory or what not, but not on posts that are pulled by request, especially when it has been quoted and talked about by others. All it does is lead to more confusion as to why those posts disappeared, or rather, why our posts disappeared when there was nothing wrong with them. It's very irritating to have what you wrote suddenly gone because someone else requested their post to be removed, because you do not know why they're gone. You just know they are. It comes across as some kind of censorship.
0
Then someone should have communicated that! That's exactly what I'm saying here, our posts disappear because one person asks that theirs gets deleted, and yet no one informs us of this at all. Would it be so difficult to at least say these posts were deleted by request of author or something, especially when some of them are posts by those of us who actually want to continue the discussion? This is exactly the kind of lack of communication I'm talking about.
0
0
Disparaging. Derogatory. Which ever you prefer. Either way, no, if anything, that makes me question you even more. It makes me question your own personal interests in comparison to ours. It makes me question your tactless lack of even an attempt of interest.
Just as you are now? We ask for some consideration, and instead your interest in expressing an opinion on the matter is to address any actual concerns, but rather berate us. Again, why should I trust you? You look to my history, but have you ever bothered to read what it is we say? Ever bothered to actually read what arguments we have made to each other? Even at my worst, I still try to make a point to what ideas I want to get across.
And this is not the point here. The point is that we feel there is a poor management of that particular forum and poor communication by the staff. Maybe I should not have "done the adult thing" and brought it up if this is the kind of treatment I receive. Yes, I have problems, okay? What, you want me to admit it? Well there. However, this is not about us being better than anyone else.
What else was I to expect but a brick wall? I came in here expecting nothing less, and my expectations were met. You seem not to care about our concerns, as clearly noted by your focus not on what we are trying to get across but instead to criticize us, to kick them while they're down, as the saying goes. As someone said, "circling the wagons." Not once have any of you address the problem of inexperience, the problem of miscommunication or lack thereof, or other issues we have had and expressed.
No, I find his criticism of our lack of "deep and meaningful understanding" to be pretty insulting, especially when he does not know what I know, he does not know of my educational background, and unless I'm mistaken, he likely has never even set foot into that forum let alone actually read anything we have had to say which I dare say suggests that several of us do have quite a degree of understanding of these topics. It's basically calling us immature idiots who know not of what they speak. So it's okay for him to insult us without consequence? Well talk about hypocrisy.
0
And look where we are now. Here we are, in this specific section, where we are addressing them.
Oh please, as the actual head of the site, that's quite the way to present yourself. Just throw us under the bus with such snide commentary. Yes, we can get vicious towards each other, but that is bound to happen when dealing with controversy. It's part of the territory. You deal with it. If anything, we're actually more tame than a lot of others you can find. But that's not the point, this does not address any of the problems and is merely a middle finger to us. This is the reason why we do not trust the staff, you show us no real reason to trust you, and this certainly does not help.
Yes, it's not like we go into the meaning of the nature of personhood, or the cultural significance of religion, or the flaws of various political philosophies, or the constitutionality or invasion of privacy, or the treatment of homosexuals, or the breakdown of modern-day feminism, or the inactivity of addressing gun violence. You can sneer at us all you want, but that does not change the fact that these topics are controversial topics. The fact you dare to insult our intelligence makes you no more above us than on our own ground. Just because I may insult others does not mean I do not understand the subjects at hand, does not mean I lack "deep and meaningful understanding." And as I have expressed, the idea that you equate them to criticize us is just as much an insult. You are no better than we are.
I would, I have done moderating before. However, I also highly doubt I would be granted such a promotion with my history - indeed, you seem to think very lowly of all of us who frequent PPNS.
4
Which if anything further supports that it is a forum that could benefit from someone who is specifically dedicated to that forum. It is nowhere near as wild in its activity as other forums and sections, yet is also much more complicated in its subject matter. And furthermore, you speak of treating the staff with respect yet offer it in a tone that appears to be just as disrespectful. You assume on the problem at hand that it is simply a matter of missing something every once in a while, or that it is a matter of disrespect towards the staff.
When we see posts suddenly disappear with no warning at all and without any kind of explanation, posts that, as far as anyone else can tell, are not breaking any rules, or that when we receive infractions while allowing plenty other goings-on to continue without ramification on a repeated basis, when we get busted inappropriately or otherwise by more staff than spaces on a roulette wheel, especially in such a small and profound forum, it does not speak well to instilling a sense of trust in the staff responsible for such oversights.
Yes, I know there's a lot of people, and yes, I know you are volunteers, and yes, I know you are not perfect, I do not need to be condescended upon to understand that. However, that does not justify allowing such problems to persist, not when it has been a long-standing problem for us and, up until now, we have kept quiet about it outside of private discussion. Perhaps it should have been brought up earlier, but it wasn't, and at least we are bringing it up now.
I am sorry, but I do not recognize you as someone who has ever spoken to us in there, who has ever joined in our discussion, who has ever shown any interest. So my apologies, but I cannot in good conscious trust what you have to say in regards to such a matter. Yes, we argue. And that is a crucial part of our discourse; however, to have those argument suddenly gone with no explanation at all, but the guy who's basically advocating hate speech on a post right above - no, not even that, but quoted in - the post in question is allowed to continue without any kind of consequence, the people who say far worse things who are completely ignored while those few who are tagged suddenly become the bad guys? That's ridiculous. And we've all seen it happen numerous times, those of us who are commonly found there.
If you're so overburdened, then maybe the site needs more management, or a better means of managing. That is not our fault. Nor should your personal opinions towards us actually play into a decision, that is not a good sign. I get it, you're only human, but you can at least attempt to be objective in your decision. If you are there to enforce the rules, the rules do not care about what we think of each other. And I am sorry once again, but if we can criticize each other, then why should I not be allowed to express some degree of dissatisfaction or criticism against what I think is wrong?
And of course, as Abandon_Ships mentions, some of us feel there is a problem of inexperience, especially in regards to the sensitive nature of the topics that we discuss.
0
Yet that does not permit or excuse neither overreach nor inaction. Regardless of the main focus of the site, its brass still created these sections and still holds responsibility in their management.
However, when it is a consistent and reoccurring problem, then it is an issue.
10
First and foremost, it is unlike any other forum on the site, and specifically within the Off-Topic section. It caters to a sub-sect of specific-minded individuals, those of a more adult-oriented mindset in regards to controversial and can-often-be heated discussions. Aside from the occasional kid who wanders in, spouting nonsense that they simply parrot from what they've been told only never return to again, it's very much not a target towards such a demographic as the rest of the site. And I dare say it certainly generally isn't within their range of interest. I mean, the median age is probably some where in the mid 20's, with average age possibly something similar.
Secondly, in relation to the prior, it is staffed in a way that is both mishandled and suspect. Mods who simply go by reports without any kind of interest in context of the situation or seem to appear simply for the sake of "fulfilling duties," or perhaps better expressed as boredom with power, rush in ban-happy (well, warning-happy), essentially just cherry-picking the first things they see. Hell, I know I've had plenty of warnings that were inappropriately handed out, and I almost never make a post anywhere else on the entirety of the site. The most damning example that I can think of would be receiving a warning for "troll-calling," when in proper context, it was clearly in reference to a stereotype. Or just recently, several posts were deleted in a topic about the origins in Christmas. Deleted without any kind of warning once so ever, and as far as anyone who actually saw them could tell, violated no rules at all. This isn't the first time either; we've seen posts suddenly gone without explanation before, and while that may be good and all for some one-line spam post - and funnily enough, just happened a little while ago - it's not okay to a post that can amount to two or three paragraphs-worth, not without at least some kind of explanation as to what was wrong.
While I obviously do not nor dare not speak for everyone, I have seen expressed by several other of my fellow PPNS frequenters a dissatisfaction with the modding in this particular forum. Complaints of hypocrisy, complaints of overreach, complaints of lack of communication, complaints of trust in the staff. Fellow commentators who I hope will join in on this discussion with their own opinions on the matter.
Ideally, to offer at least an idea of a solution, would to have a mod more-specifically appointed to moderate that forum at the cost of other mods being allowed such equal oversight. It may be a lively forum, but it isn't exactly like the main body of the site. Especially if it's someone who at least expresses some interest in it. Leniency is a must such topics, they often can be controversial and heated - while I'm not saying flaming should be permitted, there needs to be someone who at least understands that there may be strong emotion tied in with such a discussion. Not someone who just reads a report then hops on it like a cat on a mouse without any forethought. At the very least, show some respect for what it is and how it differs.
3
I have concluded as such: Daft Punk likely underwent various procedures of possibly-futuristic cybernetic implants of ocular and neuro-synthetic natures. With these implants situated and active, they used dark arts from the blackest minds of the occult, perhaps even as far as to commune with the servants of the Great Old Ones.
Upon initiation and sacrifice, the band learned the secrets of summoning. Indeed, spirits were summoned, but not to possess the machines, no. Instead, these spirits were used to possess the cybernetic implants, like an occult Ghost in the Shell. These spirits control Daft Punk during their music production and performances, enhanced by the implants to perform their inhuman abilities!
3
0
No it doesn't. Its a misnomer. It's about the most adaptable who survives. Prey must adapt to changes in their predators. Predators must adapt to changes in their prey. And both must adapt to their environment. Natural selection leaves those who have adapted the best to changing circumstances of environment.
1
1
And you can only get so worked up over it for the upteenth time before it becomes just another "symbolic" vote of some stupid bull that hasn't a snowball's chance in Hell to pass.
What, should someone make a new and dramatic topic every time the Republicans try to repeal Obamacare? [40 times]
1
Oh stop.
Jealousy on their part? I would say yes. I think the issue here isn't necessarily because you're married, but rather about taking advantage of people. You're being taken advantage of by your friends who want to use you as, well, what seems to be like a lure to fish. And they're the net. If that metaphor makes sense. For the women though, it is their decision to do what they want as well. They do not have to listen to you, nor cooperate. I don't think you should necessarily feel guilty, but you shouldn't be a thrall to your friends either.
To put it simply, I don't think you're doing anything wrong, but you may want to put your foot down as well.
0
Yes: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1838970-mermaids-real-or-fake/page__st__80#entry22889007
A basic understanding of biology. I repeat: if we even allow for the not-possible that they did evolve, either they would have gone extinct, or they would be so similar to normal fish that they would lose the semblance of being mermaids and simply be fish.