Wow, this is really cool. I now want to go play minecraft and make a redstone computer with pistons, and I judge a suggestion by how much it inspires me. Support!
That would be great, actually. I would definitely use it.
sorry, accidental post, i was getting a quote for another thread and clicked on post by mistake, moderators are free to delete this.
On that note, I'd rather you not quote me out of context in an entirely unrelated debate. The segment you quoted was for the purpose of debate - of course atmosphere an immersion play a huge role in the game, but not so much that potential changes should be thrown out the window just because a certain subsection of the community views them a certain way. Wither Skeletons work in the Nether atmospherically because they are black skeletons, demonic creatures that belong in Hell. But that description is apt for both Fortresses and the rest of the Nether. No part about their structure, design, or behavior suggests that they are the rulers of Nether Fortresses, or anything of the sort. You bring up Yetis belonging in the arctic. Of course! But what part of Wither Skeletons suggests that they belong in Nether Fortresses? Any argument about them being previously sentient inhabitants could be just as easily applied to zombie pigmen - actually better, because the pigmen have group mechanics. But I've yet to see someone ranting about how their personal lore of Minecraft means pigmen need to be put in fortresses.
Imagine you're an engineer client wants you to build a bridge to cross a river. You go to the site where he wants his bridge and you realize that the problem its not building a bridge, the real problem is crossing the river. You realize that the bridge is one of the many solutions to a problem, you could build a tunnel bellow the river or on the river bottom to cross it, you could use a big boat etc etc. But the stubborn client wants a bridge and anything else. This scenario happens to me a lot, they want a logo, they want a website, or a presentation card but what they need is more than that but still sometimes you gotta shut up and do the things for him. I have this feeling on this thread, you want wither skeletons to be out spread in the nether, but the problem is to make the nether more difficult.
The problem is making the nether more difficult, making the Wither less boring to summon, and getting more variety into the Nether. Threefold. If you have a solution that fixes all three at once with seconds of work for the developers, I'm open to hearing it, but simply adding more mobs to the Nether is only 1/3.
While adding more mobs to the Nether is a good idea, as I've stated before, moving Wither Skeletons out is a start towards fixing the problems that adding more mobs would help as well. It's not a total fix, but it solves many other problems as well, for less time and effort. The problem is a lot more complex than crossing a river - this river is an entire dimension.
Well, I think we've reached an impasse. As long as I have to keep rebutting was is essentially your own entirely subjective and personal opinions, and that is the foundation of your arguments, this is never going to go anywhere. I'm sorry that you don't agree with my suggestion.
I figure I may as well drop in and throw my two cents into the discussion.
I used to post more often; nowadays, less frequently. Perhaps I've become jaded, perhaps bored, but it seems to me the harsher moderation of late is somewhat necessary. People, and by that I mean regulars and newcomers alike, seem to resort to insults and thinly veiled flaming far more quickly, with less provocation. That fact that the regulars often sheathe their insults in good grammar and adequate vocabulary means nothing. It surprises me when I see people talking about their undeserved warnings, because I'm frankly surprised more haven't been handed out. As a quick example, I was surprised to see myself receiving my first formal infraction for content I had posted months ago. It was certainly a deserved infraction, and it wasn't pursued when I posted it, perhaps because it received a bit of rep. However, that seems to be indicative of an overall problem with PPNS - it's not exactly a secret that there is a heavy liberal slant, and even poor quality or outright flaming content gets either repped or just ignored when posted if it matches the circle jerk that happens to be going on at the time. Just because the majority of the forum agrees with you doesn't mean you don't deserve a warning for what you posted. People feel safe posting hateful and insulting messages because they know they will receive no backlash from the forum - but then are surprised when they receive backlash in the form of a deserved warning.
It can be frustrating to see sections of a topic disappearing with no explanation, and perhaps that's something that warrants some discussion. That said, when I've pursued the reason why topics or sections of topics were removed, I've almost always found the moderators helpful and willing to explain. Only a few times have I felt a topic was removed (or moved) unjustly, and reasoned discussion always ended up working it out, one way or another. The mods I've talked to are always willing to listen - just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they aren't doing their jobs right.
they exist only there, it would have been easier to code them to spawn everywhere, that is proof enough.
Basically, your argument is that because they are in Fortresses, they should never leave them, because the developers wanted them there? That seems both tautological and obtuse. Sure, it would have been easier to code it so they weren't in fortresses, but not by much. I'm not arguing that it wasn't an intentional choice by the developers to place them in Fortesses. What I am arguing is that Wither Skeletons would be better outside of Fortresses.
i say they are the owners because they are tall and menacing, and the only mobs there that look like they have any intelligence, blazes always seemed like robots because of their sounds.
How interesting. I've already addressed, I think, why personal lore is rather irrelevant to gameplay mechanics. It's an RP/GP conundrum - you could literally take any any idea on this board and destroy it because it doesn't match your personal lore. Let's look at the top one right now - Muffle enchantment. My lore (hypothetically speaking) says that monsters don't see you through sound, but through sight. Therefore, it would be ruined by adding that enchantment. I could go on with other ideas, but you get the point. Lore isn't a valid reason to ditch an idea because every single idea can be ditched by it - the developers could never add anything to the game. There's always going to be a few players saying that their lore has been ruined by the change. So sorry if a few robot sounds and an illusion of a skeleton being intelligent makes you think skeletons must always stay in Fortresses, but that's not a valid reason.
no, but on the basis that it doesn't solve all the problems, and makes them seem less special and more like just another mob, it's nice having them in fortresses because they seem more powerful and grand that way, making my own game, i appreciate lore and things like that specialness of being in certain places very much.
See, now you're actually addressing the idea by bringing up ideas against it. It "makes them seem less special". That's interesting. There are only a rare few mobs that are limited by area - silverfish, blaze, enderdragon, and Wither Skeleton. One of them is already in Nether Fortresses. Sure, it might make Wither Skeletons less rare (that's kind of the point), but less special? Creepers are the hallmark of Minecraft, and they spawn literally everywhere in the overworld. That's special enough for me.
It not solving all the problems is not a problem with my idea, and it's a rather blatant fallacy that you think it does. Again, it's like not buying scissors because you need something that staples and cuts. Buy the frickin scissors, then go find a stapler. In this idea, it makes no sense not to solve all of the problems that exist that I detailed in the OP, then go find some staplers in the form of other new mobs.
no support, i understand the problems you are trying to fix, however, wither skeletons are meant to be in fortresses only, they are pretty obviously the owners of the fortresses (just dead now), so they belong there, and there is another problem with the nether this doesn't address, variety, there is a sore lack of mobs in the nether, counting only 100% hostile mobs, wolves and normal spiders, there are twice as many mobs in the overworld as the nether, and that doesn't count the passive ones, and don't even get me started on the variety of blocks....
I've always found the "they're supposed to be there" argument rather frustrating. Are they? Has any developer said so? Can all suggestions be cast aside if someone says that it is "supposed to be that way"? Seriously, you could take literally every suggestion on this entire forum and apply that argument. If a developer has said that they are supposed to be that way, then come back and talk. Otherwise, I simply don't see the merit in such an approach.
As to the whole lore thing, I don't see it either. Certainly, you can pretend that they are the owners of the fortresses, but you could do that for blazes too. Your own personal perspective on how the past Minecraft was is rather subjective, and ultimately irrelevant. I've always viewed Wither Skeletons as mobs that spawn exclusively in the code-designated zone called a fortress.
I never said this solved the diversity issue. In fact, I've stated multiple times that this isn't a complete fix, nor have I ever claimed it is. This idea doesn't solve everything. Does that mean it shouldn't be put in? That's kind of like refusing to buy a stapler because you need something that cuts and staples. Go grab a pair of scissors too - don't storm out in a huff because they don't sell a scistapler.
i would just increase the skull drop rate and have new mobs added to the rest of the nether, and make the current ones a more dangerous, about 4-5 new, powerful mobs, as well as making the current ones more powerful, that would be good, and increase the drop rate of skulls.
I've addressed this in the FAQ. I certainly support new mobs, but adding more mobs is less efficient that putting Wither Skeletons out into the rest of the Nether as well. For a more detailed response, see the FAQ.
I like wither skeletons...
And how do you have over 470 supports when
there aren't even 450 comments, let alone 470?
I like them too! Wouldn't it be fun if you met them in a larger area than some random building most players don't even go to after they've grabbed a few Nether Warts and some blaze rods?
As to the supporters, I added an FAQ on that topic, because its the third time its come up. I draw the list from the reputation given to the post in addition to positive comments. A lot of people +1 without posting, and apparently it's enough to make my supporter's list longer than the number of comments.
Though I agree Wither skulls are a pain to get, I don't think this suggestions necessarily solves the issue. Instead, it seems like a lazy way of fixing two problems that wouldn't actually improve the game. I would prefer it simply if the drop rates for the Wither Skeleton Head was increased, because I think the whole point of the Wither boss is that you need to go out and actively seek a stronghold to be able to summon it. And to make the Nether more dangerous in general, I would prefer a new, fresh, original mob that spawns often rather than an existing one that gives the impression of fake content.
I think I addressed your idea about drop rates in the FAQ - it's not a bad idea, it simply doesn't confer the benefit.
Also, easy does not equal lazy. A change can be quick and still have a positive impact on the game, as I've explained this one does.
Zombie pigmen don't team up on mobs. Wolves and some modded mobs do, but zombie pigmen don't. But there's a mod that fixes this, chck out the VSM mod, it's japanese but you can use google translate. Anyway, I definitely support. They should add more nether mobs anyway. But I think ghasts are actually a challenge.
That's true, they technically don't, but regular mob mechanics make them team up anyway. Because they spawn so much more commonly and often in groups of 4, they end up attacking many at a time anyway. Additionally, attacking one makes all the ones near you angry as well, adding more to the feeding frenzy. So Wither Skeletons, who would be on their own, outnumbered, and slower, would die quickly against the horde. It's essentially the same thing as mob attacking, just without any sort of "teamwork" coding.
Four hundred and twenty nine replies... 460 Supporters?
Seems legitimate.
I think your confusion may be coming from the fact that I allow people to simply +1 the post to support instead of posting. I assure you that the entire thing is legitimate - you can check if you wish. There may be a few duplicate names from people that both +1ed and posted, but I scan the entire list with an online program every 50 or so people to make sure they don't stay on for too long. I hope that clears up any confusion you may have!
i think wither skeletons should just be made much more common (like, almost overworld skeleton common, and the chance of normal skeletons spawning instead being removed) and a new mob should be made, like a monstrous variant of villagers, that way it keeps the continuity of wither skeletons being the obvious owners of the fortresses and adds more diversity to the nether, proper diversity.
Hm... That's not an awful idea, but I don't think it fixes the rarity of Wither Skeleton skulls. I agree that the Nether could use more diversity even if this idea is implemented - the place is so empty right now.
That is completely up for the player, and even if this were to be implemented it wouldn't put an end to this certain problem.
How would it not? Negating the need for farms certainly negates the need for players to be bored making farms - it's almost tautological. Sure, it doesn't take out farms from the game, but I never even close to said that. I was simply responding to his assertion that one could just make a farm to get the skulls. This idea certainly doesn't stop any player that wants to make a farm either.
No, you have this idea thought out incorrectly. Sure, this makes the creation of the Wither further with ease, but then the reward also achieved with ease. Players are already aware of the difficulty of the Wither, so they have a whole plan thought out. As for finding 81 ores, it's not as difficult as it seems. This further encourages the player to explore the Minecraft world further to gain these ores. Also, if the player is to decide taking on the hassle of obtaining all three skulls, they would have chosen the path of enchanting. Of course, farms, as stated, are dull and create err through the game. If one decides to not follow the path of farming, they may choose other paths such as further mining, further murdering, or further exploring as there are rare occurrences of Looting enchanted books in dungeons, mineshafts, and fortresses themselves. You are still correct on the exaggeration that "everyone" would have a beacon, as the current process it takes is enough. Of course it wouldn't make the Wither no longer retain it's status as an endgame boss, as you still need to slaughter wither skeletons.
I'm sorry, I read this through a few time and I still can't grasp what you are saying. The Wither is still endgame, but the creation of it is slightly easier. I have thought that part through. Of course some more people would have beacons after this is done, but I'm not overly concerned about that seeing as their aren't that good anyway - wander too far away and the bonus is gone. Could you clarify what you mean when you say I've thought something out incorrectly? I'm having some trouble grasping what you are trying to say. 81 ores isn't incredibly difficult, but it's yet another boring and tedious task towards making the beacon on top of spending hours slaughtering Wither Skeletons. The point of this idea is to make one thing less boring and more exciting. I've addressed looting swords already in the FAQ, and "further murdering" was kind of what this entire idea is about, stopping the necessity for that.
So again, I can't quite understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps rephrasing might work better.
I disagree. Many consider achieving the Wither boss's process is preposterous. It's not. It prevents players from getting all three skulls in a few hours to fight the Wither. It wouldn't increase the exploration, as the Nether Fortress is still a hotspot for the wither skeletons. A player could just sit around in a fortress and slaughter them.
Nether Fortresses are not hotspots for Wither Skeletons. They'll spawn the same there as anywhere else in this idea. Hanging around a Nether Fortress would actually probably get you less, as there is less spawning ground and more of other monsters in the area (blazes on top of other mobs). As to the first bit, you really provide no evidence for your assertion that it is not too hard. Many do consider achieving the Wither boss's process preposterous. I'm one of them. I backed my opinion up with a statistical analysis and a detailed explanation. Do you have any evidence?
Now, if you consider the fact that the Nether is more like a huge 'cave' system, then you'll be seeing much more wither skeletons if they spawn at the same rate as endermen do. You would have to consider the following factors: there is no limit to when the wither skeletons can spawn, no day or night in the nether, also there is much more open space in the nether than in the overworld. You can say that there is much lava and the skeletons wouldn't be able to spawn there, but trust me, there is much more water in the overworld than there is lava in the nether.
This... Have you read up on how spawning mechanics work? At all? If you have, then I have no idea what you are talking about.
Working under the assumption that you are misguided on how spawning mechanics work, then I believe you are incorrect. There is of course no limit to when they can spawn, and I'm not arguing that they have a lot of ground to spawn on. But even if there was an infinite expanse of ground in permanent night, Endermen wouldn't spawn like crazy. That's because Mojang is a lot smarter than that in their spawn code - there are caps on how many hostile mobs can spawn in a given area, based on the number of eligible chunks and the amount already spawned. The same thing applies to Wither Skeletons in the Nether.
So you'll be seeing the same frequency of Wither Skeletons in the Nether as Endermen in the Overworld. Which is exactly what I said. But even if I messed up the wording, the intent was clear, and it's kind of pedantic to use a clear miswording to attack an idea based on spawn mechanics you misunderstand anyway.
The amount of time to implement a suggestion in not a valid argument, as long as the range stays inside the 'possible' region.
Why not? It certainly doesn't make or break an idea, but I cannot see how anyone could argue that it isn't a plus for an idea to be quick to implement. Could you provide an argument for why it isn't instead of simply stating your opinion? Thanks.
The player should also have the option of whether they want to start battling at once entering the nether or if they just want to take in a brief look of the landscape.
Why should the player have that option? This is Hell incarnate. This is a land of lava, where people shaped like pigs walk around with golden swords and giant white monsters lob fireballs at you from the sky, where the very ground burns forever and ruined structures filled with blazing creatures that spew fiery death. And you think the player should be able to stop and enjoy the view? That seems like an interesting argument. I would liken it to someone saying that no monster should attack at night until the player gets some time to explore the darkness. You want to enjoy the view? Play on peaceful. Far more players think the Nether is too easy than think it is too hard. In the end, it is based on opinion, so if you disagree there is little I can do to convince you other than tell you to get some iron armor.
The implementation of this idea would only create an imbalance even more, as you are looking at 1) adding further challenge and 2) creating the Wither without such a hassle as before.
Imbalance? Did you read the post? This is talking about balancing the disparity between structures and the rest of the Nether, not to mention make harder a Nether that is filled with barely anything challenging. Two arrows takes out a Ghast, and they are big enough so even an awful shot shouldn't need more than 4 arrows to get the job done. Slimes are so slow you can just walk away, zombie pigmen don't even attack you. The best that can be said for the difficult of the nether is that it's like on big freerunning course because of all the fire and lava, and those are passive threats that can be avoided with even a basic skill of movement. Yes, this would add further challenge. And I have almost 500 people saying that's a good thing. The Nether needs more difficulty.
As for creating the Wither without a hassle, I can only say that that is the main point of this idea, along with increasing Nether difficulty. I'd like to see a better response than "it deserves the hassle", before I can take seriously a half-sentence rebuttal of a concept I supported with, again, a college-level statistical analysis and a detailed description.
And so since when is decoration not a real incentive? Isn't that one of the key features of the game, to build whatever your heart desires?
Of course it's an incentive. I even admitted that. But it's not that much of one. There are many builders out there for which it is an incentive. But for the rest of the population that plays either without the need for quartz or to beat the dragon? No incentive at all. I loved it when I saw the addition of Nether Quartz - it's a great step towards a more "worth it" Nether. But it certainly doesn't increase the difficulty of the Nether, and more incentive to explore never hurts.
Yes, it would. Though, you have forgotten to take into account all the others who don't want such a challenge, yet be able to obtain hostile mob drops. Have you noticed the reception of the buffing for zombies and skeletons, and the nerfing of health potions? They were extremely negative, but Mojang took this chance due to the fact that no one knew the change was coming. If they were to add this, the supporters and all who have read this know what's to come. Those who dislike making the game difficult even more by buffing, would leave such negative criticism. That's not such a smart move for Mojang, is it?
I sincerely apologize, but I again cannot grasp what you are trying to say here. Is it that for some reason, knowing something is coming makes it less effective of an addition? Or that not being surprised by a change will make the reception more negative? If that's what you are trying to say, I would contest that greatly. First of all, the reception for this idea has been overwhelmingly positive. Yes, there are quite a few people who dislike it, but they are greatly outnumbered by those who do. Second, there is no reason people would dislike a change more that they are expecting (not that they would expect this change anyway). Third, Mojang was responding to a common community request to increase the difficulty of the game by making mobs harder. There was a lot of negative criticism, but many players also were in support of it. For those who dislike it, easy mode is always an option, where they can get mob drops without much difficulty. That's why different levels of difficulty exist. If someone played on normal before skellies were buffed, they might drop down to easy.
But no, I haven't forgotten those who don't want such a change. The players that don't want a difficult game should think twice before venturing into Hell. Right now, the Nether is far easier than the overworld at night - a fact I can't see anyone disputing. Why is that? This idea wouldn't even make it harder than the overworld at night, it would just make it closer to that.
To conclude. I apologize if I misinterpreted some of your points. I had some difficulty understanding what I felt was poorly written explanations, both grammatically and verbally. I believe this is a good idea because it not only increases the difficulty of the Nether, a change the overwhelming majority of people support, but it also encourages exploration. While Nether Quartz was a great addition to encourage exploration, it is not an incentive for everyone, and there is little challenge in mining it with no hostile ground mobs. Additionally, though I see you disagree that the Wither is too hard to summon, I think my analysis more than proves otherwise. It's reward is paltry as well, considering the abilities the beacon confers aren't that good anyway. Additionally, though I agree many players would not have trouble collecting the necessary ores, it is yet another tedious task that must be undertaken for what is essentially an endgame sidequest. There's no reason for the Wither to be as hard (and more importantly, as boring) to summon as it is, and yet one must spend hours and hours collecting skulls, then hours and hours collecting ores, just to get the beacon. This change would, all in one blow, encourage exploration, even out the disparity between fortresses and the rest of the Nether, make the Wither less tedious to summon, and increase the difficulty of the Nether. Not bad for 5 minutes of work from Mojang, who can then move on to other new and great features.
SO?
Skellies being in fortresses make it HARDER. Why do you always want more easy? If you really want wither skellies just type in "/summon" and it's name. Geez.
Thanks for you concern! If you head over to the FAQ, you'll find your concern about it being too easy is addressed with a college-level statistical analysis of drop rates and its objective affect on the game. I hope that completely addresses your concern about it being too easy to get skulls.
Of course, you weren't very specific, so I'd like to take the time to address another possible concern as well. Sorry if there was any confusion, but this would actually make the Nether harder! Yes, shockingly, if one puts more difficult mobs and makes them spawn more often over the entire Nether instead of just a small chunk of it, it makes that area harder! It's kind of like if Cave Spiders started spawning aboveground at night - it would make nighttime a lot harder. A similar thing happens with Wither Skeletons.
Your idea is really bad. Stand the criticism. THIS IS HORRIBLE!
W. Skellies are meant to be rare and spawn in fortresses and you complain about it?
If it's a problem, STOP PLAYING.
Thanks for the detailed criticism. I really like how you point out exactly what you think is bad about the idea instead of just speaking in a lot of caps and making unsupported attacks. If you could just expand upon your point about how it was "meant to be", that would be great. I would especially love it if you gave detail to how you know it was meant to be, and why something is inherently a good thing just because it was meant to be.
Anyways, I don't really view my post as complaining so much as a detailed description of why this should be added to the game. If you'd like to expand upon why you think I was complaining, feel free! Perhaps the tone was unintentionally rougher than expected.
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Why? I would love some variety in my cobble, and plants. It seems like a waste to limit such a great idea to just ores.
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That would be great, actually. I would definitely use it.
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Thanks! I'll probably become a bit more active in reaching out to the devs when this reaches 500 supporters, through twitter and Reddit.
EDIT: On that note, we're only 11 away from 500 supporters! Thanks to everyone who has supported this idea so far.
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On that note, I'd rather you not quote me out of context in an entirely unrelated debate. The segment you quoted was for the purpose of debate - of course atmosphere an immersion play a huge role in the game, but not so much that potential changes should be thrown out the window just because a certain subsection of the community views them a certain way. Wither Skeletons work in the Nether atmospherically because they are black skeletons, demonic creatures that belong in Hell. But that description is apt for both Fortresses and the rest of the Nether. No part about their structure, design, or behavior suggests that they are the rulers of Nether Fortresses, or anything of the sort. You bring up Yetis belonging in the arctic. Of course! But what part of Wither Skeletons suggests that they belong in Nether Fortresses? Any argument about them being previously sentient inhabitants could be just as easily applied to zombie pigmen - actually better, because the pigmen have group mechanics. But I've yet to see someone ranting about how their personal lore of Minecraft means pigmen need to be put in fortresses.
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The problem is making the nether more difficult, making the Wither less boring to summon, and getting more variety into the Nether. Threefold. If you have a solution that fixes all three at once with seconds of work for the developers, I'm open to hearing it, but simply adding more mobs to the Nether is only 1/3.
While adding more mobs to the Nether is a good idea, as I've stated before, moving Wither Skeletons out is a start towards fixing the problems that adding more mobs would help as well. It's not a total fix, but it solves many other problems as well, for less time and effort. The problem is a lot more complex than crossing a river - this river is an entire dimension.
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Well, I think we've reached an impasse. As long as I have to keep rebutting was is essentially your own entirely subjective and personal opinions, and that is the foundation of your arguments, this is never going to go anywhere. I'm sorry that you don't agree with my suggestion.
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I used to post more often; nowadays, less frequently. Perhaps I've become jaded, perhaps bored, but it seems to me the harsher moderation of late is somewhat necessary. People, and by that I mean regulars and newcomers alike, seem to resort to insults and thinly veiled flaming far more quickly, with less provocation. That fact that the regulars often sheathe their insults in good grammar and adequate vocabulary means nothing. It surprises me when I see people talking about their undeserved warnings, because I'm frankly surprised more haven't been handed out. As a quick example, I was surprised to see myself receiving my first formal infraction for content I had posted months ago. It was certainly a deserved infraction, and it wasn't pursued when I posted it, perhaps because it received a bit of rep. However, that seems to be indicative of an overall problem with PPNS - it's not exactly a secret that there is a heavy liberal slant, and even poor quality or outright flaming content gets either repped or just ignored when posted if it matches the circle jerk that happens to be going on at the time. Just because the majority of the forum agrees with you doesn't mean you don't deserve a warning for what you posted. People feel safe posting hateful and insulting messages because they know they will receive no backlash from the forum - but then are surprised when they receive backlash in the form of a deserved warning.
It can be frustrating to see sections of a topic disappearing with no explanation, and perhaps that's something that warrants some discussion. That said, when I've pursued the reason why topics or sections of topics were removed, I've almost always found the moderators helpful and willing to explain. Only a few times have I felt a topic was removed (or moved) unjustly, and reasoned discussion always ended up working it out, one way or another. The mods I've talked to are always willing to listen - just because they don't agree with you doesn't mean they aren't doing their jobs right.
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Basically, your argument is that because they are in Fortresses, they should never leave them, because the developers wanted them there? That seems both tautological and obtuse. Sure, it would have been easier to code it so they weren't in fortresses, but not by much. I'm not arguing that it wasn't an intentional choice by the developers to place them in Fortesses. What I am arguing is that Wither Skeletons would be better outside of Fortresses.
How interesting. I've already addressed, I think, why personal lore is rather irrelevant to gameplay mechanics. It's an RP/GP conundrum - you could literally take any any idea on this board and destroy it because it doesn't match your personal lore. Let's look at the top one right now - Muffle enchantment. My lore (hypothetically speaking) says that monsters don't see you through sound, but through sight. Therefore, it would be ruined by adding that enchantment. I could go on with other ideas, but you get the point. Lore isn't a valid reason to ditch an idea because every single idea can be ditched by it - the developers could never add anything to the game. There's always going to be a few players saying that their lore has been ruined by the change. So sorry if a few robot sounds and an illusion of a skeleton being intelligent makes you think skeletons must always stay in Fortresses, but that's not a valid reason.
See, now you're actually addressing the idea by bringing up ideas against it. It "makes them seem less special". That's interesting. There are only a rare few mobs that are limited by area - silverfish, blaze, enderdragon, and Wither Skeleton. One of them is already in Nether Fortresses. Sure, it might make Wither Skeletons less rare (that's kind of the point), but less special? Creepers are the hallmark of Minecraft, and they spawn literally everywhere in the overworld. That's special enough for me.
It not solving all the problems is not a problem with my idea, and it's a rather blatant fallacy that you think it does. Again, it's like not buying scissors because you need something that staples and cuts. Buy the frickin scissors, then go find a stapler. In this idea, it makes no sense not to solve all of the problems that exist that I detailed in the OP, then go find some staplers in the form of other new mobs.
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I've always found the "they're supposed to be there" argument rather frustrating. Are they? Has any developer said so? Can all suggestions be cast aside if someone says that it is "supposed to be that way"? Seriously, you could take literally every suggestion on this entire forum and apply that argument. If a developer has said that they are supposed to be that way, then come back and talk. Otherwise, I simply don't see the merit in such an approach.
As to the whole lore thing, I don't see it either. Certainly, you can pretend that they are the owners of the fortresses, but you could do that for blazes too. Your own personal perspective on how the past Minecraft was is rather subjective, and ultimately irrelevant. I've always viewed Wither Skeletons as mobs that spawn exclusively in the code-designated zone called a fortress.
I never said this solved the diversity issue. In fact, I've stated multiple times that this isn't a complete fix, nor have I ever claimed it is. This idea doesn't solve everything. Does that mean it shouldn't be put in? That's kind of like refusing to buy a stapler because you need something that cuts and staples. Go grab a pair of scissors too - don't storm out in a huff because they don't sell a scistapler.
I've addressed this in the FAQ. I certainly support new mobs, but adding more mobs is less efficient that putting Wither Skeletons out into the rest of the Nether as well. For a more detailed response, see the FAQ.
I like them too! Wouldn't it be fun if you met them in a larger area than some random building most players don't even go to after they've grabbed a few Nether Warts and some blaze rods?
As to the supporters, I added an FAQ on that topic, because its the third time its come up. I draw the list from the reputation given to the post in addition to positive comments. A lot of people +1 without posting, and apparently it's enough to make my supporter's list longer than the number of comments.
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I think I addressed your idea about drop rates in the FAQ - it's not a bad idea, it simply doesn't confer the benefit.
Also, easy does not equal lazy. A change can be quick and still have a positive impact on the game, as I've explained this one does.
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That's true, they technically don't, but regular mob mechanics make them team up anyway. Because they spawn so much more commonly and often in groups of 4, they end up attacking many at a time anyway. Additionally, attacking one makes all the ones near you angry as well, adding more to the feeding frenzy. So Wither Skeletons, who would be on their own, outnumbered, and slower, would die quickly against the horde. It's essentially the same thing as mob attacking, just without any sort of "teamwork" coding.
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I think your confusion may be coming from the fact that I allow people to simply +1 the post to support instead of posting. I assure you that the entire thing is legitimate - you can check if you wish. There may be a few duplicate names from people that both +1ed and posted, but I scan the entire list with an online program every 50 or so people to make sure they don't stay on for too long. I hope that clears up any confusion you may have!
Hm... That's not an awful idea, but I don't think it fixes the rarity of Wither Skeleton skulls. I agree that the Nether could use more diversity even if this idea is implemented - the place is so empty right now.
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How would it not? Negating the need for farms certainly negates the need for players to be bored making farms - it's almost tautological. Sure, it doesn't take out farms from the game, but I never even close to said that. I was simply responding to his assertion that one could just make a farm to get the skulls. This idea certainly doesn't stop any player that wants to make a farm either.
I'm sorry, I read this through a few time and I still can't grasp what you are saying. The Wither is still endgame, but the creation of it is slightly easier. I have thought that part through. Of course some more people would have beacons after this is done, but I'm not overly concerned about that seeing as their aren't that good anyway - wander too far away and the bonus is gone. Could you clarify what you mean when you say I've thought something out incorrectly? I'm having some trouble grasping what you are trying to say. 81 ores isn't incredibly difficult, but it's yet another boring and tedious task towards making the beacon on top of spending hours slaughtering Wither Skeletons. The point of this idea is to make one thing less boring and more exciting. I've addressed looting swords already in the FAQ, and "further murdering" was kind of what this entire idea is about, stopping the necessity for that.
So again, I can't quite understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps rephrasing might work better.
Nether Fortresses are not hotspots for Wither Skeletons. They'll spawn the same there as anywhere else in this idea. Hanging around a Nether Fortress would actually probably get you less, as there is less spawning ground and more of other monsters in the area (blazes on top of other mobs). As to the first bit, you really provide no evidence for your assertion that it is not too hard. Many do consider achieving the Wither boss's process preposterous. I'm one of them. I backed my opinion up with a statistical analysis and a detailed explanation. Do you have any evidence?
This... Have you read up on how spawning mechanics work? At all? If you have, then I have no idea what you are talking about.
Working under the assumption that you are misguided on how spawning mechanics work, then I believe you are incorrect. There is of course no limit to when they can spawn, and I'm not arguing that they have a lot of ground to spawn on. But even if there was an infinite expanse of ground in permanent night, Endermen wouldn't spawn like crazy. That's because Mojang is a lot smarter than that in their spawn code - there are caps on how many hostile mobs can spawn in a given area, based on the number of eligible chunks and the amount already spawned. The same thing applies to Wither Skeletons in the Nether.
So you'll be seeing the same frequency of Wither Skeletons in the Nether as Endermen in the Overworld. Which is exactly what I said. But even if I messed up the wording, the intent was clear, and it's kind of pedantic to use a clear miswording to attack an idea based on spawn mechanics you misunderstand anyway.
Why not? It certainly doesn't make or break an idea, but I cannot see how anyone could argue that it isn't a plus for an idea to be quick to implement. Could you provide an argument for why it isn't instead of simply stating your opinion? Thanks.
Why should the player have that option? This is Hell incarnate. This is a land of lava, where people shaped like pigs walk around with golden swords and giant white monsters lob fireballs at you from the sky, where the very ground burns forever and ruined structures filled with blazing creatures that spew fiery death. And you think the player should be able to stop and enjoy the view? That seems like an interesting argument. I would liken it to someone saying that no monster should attack at night until the player gets some time to explore the darkness. You want to enjoy the view? Play on peaceful. Far more players think the Nether is too easy than think it is too hard. In the end, it is based on opinion, so if you disagree there is little I can do to convince you other than tell you to get some iron armor.
Imbalance? Did you read the post? This is talking about balancing the disparity between structures and the rest of the Nether, not to mention make harder a Nether that is filled with barely anything challenging. Two arrows takes out a Ghast, and they are big enough so even an awful shot shouldn't need more than 4 arrows to get the job done. Slimes are so slow you can just walk away, zombie pigmen don't even attack you. The best that can be said for the difficult of the nether is that it's like on big freerunning course because of all the fire and lava, and those are passive threats that can be avoided with even a basic skill of movement. Yes, this would add further challenge. And I have almost 500 people saying that's a good thing. The Nether needs more difficulty.
As for creating the Wither without a hassle, I can only say that that is the main point of this idea, along with increasing Nether difficulty. I'd like to see a better response than "it deserves the hassle", before I can take seriously a half-sentence rebuttal of a concept I supported with, again, a college-level statistical analysis and a detailed description.
Of course it's an incentive. I even admitted that. But it's not that much of one. There are many builders out there for which it is an incentive. But for the rest of the population that plays either without the need for quartz or to beat the dragon? No incentive at all. I loved it when I saw the addition of Nether Quartz - it's a great step towards a more "worth it" Nether. But it certainly doesn't increase the difficulty of the Nether, and more incentive to explore never hurts.
I sincerely apologize, but I again cannot grasp what you are trying to say here. Is it that for some reason, knowing something is coming makes it less effective of an addition? Or that not being surprised by a change will make the reception more negative? If that's what you are trying to say, I would contest that greatly. First of all, the reception for this idea has been overwhelmingly positive. Yes, there are quite a few people who dislike it, but they are greatly outnumbered by those who do. Second, there is no reason people would dislike a change more that they are expecting (not that they would expect this change anyway). Third, Mojang was responding to a common community request to increase the difficulty of the game by making mobs harder. There was a lot of negative criticism, but many players also were in support of it. For those who dislike it, easy mode is always an option, where they can get mob drops without much difficulty. That's why different levels of difficulty exist. If someone played on normal before skellies were buffed, they might drop down to easy.
But no, I haven't forgotten those who don't want such a change. The players that don't want a difficult game should think twice before venturing into Hell. Right now, the Nether is far easier than the overworld at night - a fact I can't see anyone disputing. Why is that? This idea wouldn't even make it harder than the overworld at night, it would just make it closer to that.
To conclude. I apologize if I misinterpreted some of your points. I had some difficulty understanding what I felt was poorly written explanations, both grammatically and verbally. I believe this is a good idea because it not only increases the difficulty of the Nether, a change the overwhelming majority of people support, but it also encourages exploration. While Nether Quartz was a great addition to encourage exploration, it is not an incentive for everyone, and there is little challenge in mining it with no hostile ground mobs. Additionally, though I see you disagree that the Wither is too hard to summon, I think my analysis more than proves otherwise. It's reward is paltry as well, considering the abilities the beacon confers aren't that good anyway. Additionally, though I agree many players would not have trouble collecting the necessary ores, it is yet another tedious task that must be undertaken for what is essentially an endgame sidequest. There's no reason for the Wither to be as hard (and more importantly, as boring) to summon as it is, and yet one must spend hours and hours collecting skulls, then hours and hours collecting ores, just to get the beacon. This change would, all in one blow, encourage exploration, even out the disparity between fortresses and the rest of the Nether, make the Wither less tedious to summon, and increase the difficulty of the Nether. Not bad for 5 minutes of work from Mojang, who can then move on to other new and great features.
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Thanks for you concern! If you head over to the FAQ, you'll find your concern about it being too easy is addressed with a college-level statistical analysis of drop rates and its objective affect on the game. I hope that completely addresses your concern about it being too easy to get skulls.
Of course, you weren't very specific, so I'd like to take the time to address another possible concern as well. Sorry if there was any confusion, but this would actually make the Nether harder! Yes, shockingly, if one puts more difficult mobs and makes them spawn more often over the entire Nether instead of just a small chunk of it, it makes that area harder! It's kind of like if Cave Spiders started spawning aboveground at night - it would make nighttime a lot harder. A similar thing happens with Wither Skeletons.
Thanks for the detailed criticism. I really like how you point out exactly what you think is bad about the idea instead of just speaking in a lot of caps and making unsupported attacks. If you could just expand upon your point about how it was "meant to be", that would be great. I would especially love it if you gave detail to how you know it was meant to be, and why something is inherently a good thing just because it was meant to be.
Anyways, I don't really view my post as complaining so much as a detailed description of why this should be added to the game. If you'd like to expand upon why you think I was complaining, feel free! Perhaps the tone was unintentionally rougher than expected.