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    posted a message on [Hypothetically] What language instead of Java...
    Quote from CosmicSpore »
    Quote from Eavan »

    1. You tell me that the link didn't argue C++ being faster than Java, and then you say it argued both ways? So, one way is: Java is faster than C++. And the other is... what?

    The link does NOT argue C/C++ being faster than Java. If you'd read it, it explicitly states this:
    Java is now nearly equal to (or faster than) C++ on low-level and numeric benchmarks.

    As well as many other things.
    I, ME, the person you're talking to... said it can be argued both ways.... because it can. And it has been for a few years now. No one can accurately determine which is faster, how and when.
    I was basically just arguing that there's no reason to say C++ is faster. And Vice versa, as well.


    Well, if you claim that it can be argued (I assume you mean validly argued) either way, why don't you show me some evidence of a valid claim for C++ supremacy?

    Quote from CosmicSpore »
    Quote from Eavan »

    2. The processor of a computer would hardly make a difference in the Java v. C++ speed benching. And also, that benchmark is a often used, and usually accepted method to test the variety of situations that may occur in a large scale software program. Sure, some programs might be slower with Java, but with the majority of leads being with Java, those woudl be rare.

    If you look up any legitimate article, you'll probably see them state that benchmarks are not really a true indication of a full software program. Like the article I linked to earlier.
    As well, you'll see that benchmarks range depending on how the tests are performed and on what systems.
    The system, as well as the algorithms, definitely make a difference.


    Yes, benchmarks are clearly not some sort of perfect prediction method for the speed of a language, but they give a big clue as to what is likely.
    And those tests chosen for the benchmark were chosen for their variety in the challenges they impose on the compiler/runtime.

    Quote from CosmicSpore »
    Quote from Eavan »

    3. Yeah, Java and C++ are practically the same, and the speed of a program is mostly dependent on the programmer. But I thought we were ignoring this, as the topic of this is to compare C++ and Java, not coding ability.

    Quite the opposite actually. I was not ignoring it, I was actually saying it is the most important aspect in programs.
    I don't think this point should ever be ignored, ESPECIALLY when discussing differences between programming languages.


    I never said that you were ignoring it. I was saying this information has almost no relevance to the topic, as we aren't discussing manual optimization. We're discussing the speed of the language in equally optimized code.

    Quote from CosmicSpore »
    Quote from Eavan »

    4. Huh, that's odd. One time I tried running a Java program with the server JVM, and it didn't work. I saw a few places online that said the client JVM was no longer used. I guess that info might be old, or I may have been misinformed.

    I wasn't sure, but I found this:
    http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/ ... iler_types
    Which still mentions both -server and -client compilers.

    ... Which makes me wonder what Minecraft is compiled with?... Hmm...


    Hmm, that FAQ was written in 7/16/10, and I checked only a couple months ago. Still, I believe your argument for the continued use of client, I believe that was a misunderstanding on my part.

    Quote from duke2112 »
    Well my CG course developed a small OpenGL engine for practice.
    Our Java version ended up being slightly faster then the c++ version.
    And certainly not because of shoddy programming on the c++ part.


    I've experienced similar speedups when programming applets with LWJGL vs programs in C++ using raw OpenGL.
    Posted in: Mods Discussion
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    posted a message on [Hypothetically] What language instead of Java...
    Quote from CosmicSpore »
    -snip-
    lol.... Wow.
    1. You obviously didn't even bother to click my link. You just assumed it said C++ is faster, for some reason. Even though I was trying to provide evidence to support the opposite because someone else was arguing that.
    Nothing I said needed to be corrected.

    2. Yes, it can (and easily) be argued that C++ is faster than Java. It can be argued both ways, and has been for a while now.
    The link you provided is just some benchmarks. It uses some algorithms to test speeds. However, it does not and could not indicate the speed comparisons between full software programs.
    You also have to take into account the individualization of PCs and computer hardware and software in general. Making comparison practically impossible for 1:1 purposes.
    I could provide another link, explaining how C++ is faster overall, but I have a feeling it would be pointless and go unread. (BUT! I'm not implying C++ or Java IS faster. Again, I'm only explaining how it can be argued both ways.)

    3. Like I said before, the speed and performance of full software programs depends more on the developer and their programming and techniques than on the language or compiler used.
    Programmers shouldn't see a large performance influence based on their chosen language

    4. As far as I'm aware, Java still uses both a client and server VM, so I'm not sure why you said it doesn't use the client VM anymore. And you can still decide to run in -client or -server, so this kind of supports my idea that they both still exist...

    Isn't there a better place for this topic? It's not exactly about 'Modding', really...


    1. You tell me that the link didn't argue C++ being faster than Java, and then you say it argued both ways? So, one way is: Java is faster than C++. And the other is... what?

    2. The processor of a computer would hardly make a difference in the Java v. C++ speed benching. And also, that benchmark is a often used, and usually accepted method to test the variety of situations that may occur in a large scale software program. Sure, some programs might be slower with Java, but with the majority of leads being with Java, those woudl be rare.

    3. Yeah, Java and C++ are practically the same, and the speed of a program is mostly dependent on the programmer. But I thought we were ignoring this, as the topic of this is to compare C++ and Java, not coding ability.

    4. Huh, that's odd. One time I tried running a Java program with the server JVM, and it didn't work. I saw a few places online that said the client JVM was no longer used. I guess that info might be old, or I may have been misinformed.
    Posted in: Mods Discussion
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    posted a message on [Hypothetically] What language instead of Java...
    Quote from rushone2009 »
    Quote from Grammernatzi »
    For developer management, Java is great. Performance-wise, of course not. Java is a virtual machine. Running a game natively is always better. If Minecraft was in C++, most of the lag complaints you see would be gone. The only advantage of Java for "performance" is cross-platform support, AKA Notch only has to do about three things (or none at all, not sure) for it to work on Mac or Linux.


    He should rewrite it in C++ for Windows. Thats would be dope.


    What would the advantage be? A year of no development is a bad thing in my opinion, not to mention less stability, and lower likelihood of continued compatibility.
    Posted in: Mods Discussion
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    posted a message on [Hypothetically] What language instead of Java...
    I don't log on much, but I thought this needed to be corrected.

    Quote from CosmicSpore »

    Quote from Grammernatzi »
    And, no, it isn't a "tiny" bit of speed that he would have got from running on C/C++. It would have been a HUGE difference in performance.

    ... And this one is very easily arguable.
    There's no evidence to support this idea. The speed of a software product is more dependent on programming techniques and etc. of the developer than the actual language used.
    As simple evidence of the ability to argue either side, I can provide this article:
    http://scribblethink.org/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html


    No, it really cannot be argued that Java is slower than C++ with modern Java JVMs. If you look at this link (Ignore the "client" JVM, it isn't used anymore.) then you can see that Java is faster than C++ in most areas, slower in a couple, and practically the same speed in some.
    Posted in: Mods Discussion
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    posted a message on If this continues, Manic Digger may be the better game.
    Quote from SkyPiercers!? »
    Let this topic die now, guys. OP is most likely sitting back and waiting for people to begin fighting each other.


    Waiting for people to begin? Don't you mean watching people fight?
    Posted in: General Gaming
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    posted a message on [NOTCH BLOG] Alpha 1.0.12
    Quote from blaster »
    Hmm
    Speaking of changing the chunk radius, sometimes players want to see far away locations
    How about allowing them to press a button that increases there chunk radius by 4, but only chunks in a 90 degree FOV are loaded.


    Chunks are already only loaded if they are within your FOV. (Which is not 90 degrees, by the way.)
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on You still play Minecraft Classic?
    Quote from DamianDSH »
    Quote from riverchen »
    I do it for the music.

    yeah... i do too.


    You both could just play the music yourselves...
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on I have a texture problem
    Have you tried running Minecraft and looking again? Minecraft has to generate the files before you can modify them.
    Posted in: Mods Discussion
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    posted a message on Minecraft memory leak?
    Quote from Corbald »
    I believe he was referring to the state prior to detonation.


    Possibly. Could we have any clarification from the OP?
    Posted in: Alpha - Survival Single Player
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    posted a message on Minecraft memory leak?
    Do you actually think that's a memory leak? You blew up a million TNT.

    I have news: Doing things on a computer uses memory. Another piece of news, memory leaks are when a program slowly takes up more memory when idle. Not when you're doing something that is very memory intensive, like blowing up an entire terrain of TNT.

    This goes to all of you that agreed with the OP.
    Posted in: Alpha - Survival Single Player
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    posted a message on A major exploitable flaw with chests.
    Quote from Uncreative. »
    Quote from Eavan »
    Quote from Atomizer »
    Accessing a chests contents, and clicking on the chest, are 2 different things.


    To access the chest, you must click on it. The server would prevent the interaction with that block which you aren't near.
    In games, there's a packet sent for most actions. When accessing a chest's contents, I'm almost 100% sure that it'll have a packet containing information on accessing chest (id), not right clicking.

    @mnjiman: Someone can dig a hole right under the chest and open it as long as there's no blocks covering the top of the chest, so it's not really a matter of "making a better safe".


    I never said anything about right clicking. In fact, I used the word interaction for a reason. When you right click on a chest, guess what happens? You're right! You interact with the chest. The client requests access to the chest from the server, and the server says either yes or no. So basically you just restated my point.
    Posted in: Alpha - Survival Single Player
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    posted a message on A thought occurred to me... Why do leaves grow in "winter"?
    Quote from wreck »
    Leaves, flowers, and grass grow in winter. I think none of them should.


    Grass grows during winter. What kind of winters do you live through? 0.0
    Posted in: Suggestions
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    posted a message on New Ideas: Crafting magic and guns
    Quote from Notchisaboss »
    Quote from sumguy720 »
    People have generally said no to guns because they don't fit with the whole survival on an island theme.

    Hey Big guy, Every played Crysis Mr.Butts?


    Are you seriously comparing Minecraft to Crysis? In Crysis, you are not surviving on an island. You have a hight tech armor suit, and you of course have guns, given to you before you got to the island. In Minecraft, you have nothing and must develop everything yourself. I don't think it's possible to make nano-tech by hand, personally.
    Posted in: Suggestions
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    posted a message on A major exploitable flaw with chests.
    Quote from Atomizer »
    Accessing a chests contents, and clicking on the chest, are 2 different things.


    To access the chest, you must click on it. The server would prevent the interaction with that block which you aren't near.
    Posted in: Alpha - Survival Single Player
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    posted a message on A major exploitable flaw with chests.
    Quote from Uncreative. »
    I saw that blog post already. I don't really think that covers it, but ok


    Why wouldn't it cover it? It's not as if clicking on a chest and clicking on a mineable block are fundamentally different. One is a tile, one is a tileentity.
    Posted in: Alpha - Survival Single Player
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