• 869

    posted a message on Bring Back Beaches!
    Updated OP: 9/3/12 (Modified OP explanations, thanks to getpoopedonkid // Fixed Poll)
    Updated OP: 3/8/12 (Fixed Poll)


    NOTICE (As of Snapshot 12w01a):

    This is an screenshot of the beach gen that was re-added in Snapshot 12w01a. Please note that this is not representative of the new beaches in general, but instead an example of what the new generation can create!

    Jeb appears to have simply changed the blocks which form the transition between land and the ocean biome from dirt to sand. This forms ugly clumps of sand hardly resembling beaches on hilly terrain. This DOES NOT resemble actual beaches or beaches as they once were in Beta 1.7.3! Or reality for that matter.

    What should be done to correct this:
    • Simply limit the max height of sand that can generate to two to three blocks above sea level, which would be identical to beach generation prior to Beta 1.8. With beaches essentially being their own biome, such a change should feasibly be easy since it shouldn't conflict with other biomes. If you believe otherwise, please state so and why!


    With the inclusion of the new terrain generation in recent releases, I've read about many major topics and comments having to do with terrible biome transitions involving the swamp biome and the such. However I have not seen any real topics concerning the exclusion of beaches and the issues concerning underwater bedding. So here is the point of this topic:


    1.) Beaches was a widely-liked feature of the previous terrain generator and it needs to be restored.

    This should be simple enough. Just add back beaches into the terrain generator. Also gravel beaches should be returned as well. More on that later in the topic.

    2.) Although a less important issue, underwater bedding, lacks the uniformity and overall realism that it used to have. Currently, lakes and oceans are covered in splotchy patches of dirt, sand, and clay.

    The main argument against the current underwater bedding generation is that allows for easy access to large amounts of clay, and that clay was supposedly more rare in the previous generator. However, it was abundant, since the x=z clay generator bug that previously plagued the game was patched in 1.7.

    However, to further address this issue, clay density and frequency can be increased to satisfy those who believe that more clay truly is necessary.[/indent]

    The poor state of these aspects of the terrain generator has proven to be both an annoyance and an eyesore to me and the community as well. Beach gen prior to 1.8 paralleled realistic beaches and was more aesthetically pleasing in general. To further elaborate what I mean:

    Beaches, prior 1.8

    "Beaches" (along lakeside), 1.8 and later

    Beaches, real life

    As you can see, beaches do not actually generate in 1.8 and later, the "beaches" you see are actually not beaches at all; they are simply the outcroppings of the underwater sand bedding crossing onto the shore. This brings me to the next point: underwater bedding.

    Underwater bedding (same pic as before, view the underwater portion), prior 1.8

    Underwater bedding, 1.8 and later

    Underwater bedding, comparison with 1.8 vs. 1.7, and real life (Borrowed from Dragonid's Terrain Generation Changes Remaining)

    As you can see, in 1.8 and later, underwater bedding consists of ugly patches of circular splotches, whether it be in a lake or an ocean. Previously, it was both aesthetically appealing and realistic. Clay would still be fairly abundant if the patch from 1.7 were also incorporated into clay generation. If that is not enough, we can simply have clay generated in the same manner as depicted in the picture below in higher frequencies or larger quantities:

    Lastly, gravel beaches should be added back. It was a realistic feature of the old terrain generator and also broke up the monotony with the constant sand beaches. It is not a necessary feature to be re-added, though it would be nice.

    Gravel Beaches, 1.7 and before

    Gravel Beaches, real life

    To reiterate:

    1.) Beaches was a widely-liked feature of the previous terrain generator and so, needs to be fixed.

    2.) Although a less important issue, underwater bedding, lacks the uniformity and overall realism that it used to have. Currently, lakes and oceans are covered in splotchy patches of dirt, sand, and clay.

    With this said and done, I ask that these issues be addressed as soon as it is possible. If you can, please twitter or e-mail Jeb. This is technically not meant to be a petition or anything like the very popular Dear Mojang: The Swamps are Still Ugly topic, just a reminder to show that these issues must be addressed. However, you can show your support by twittering Jeb (+ link to here) or just acknowledging it here.

    Tweet Jeb at: https://twitter.com/#!/jeb_


    Get Satisfaction Topic: http://www.getsatisf..._gravel_beaches

    Also check out Dragonid's Terrain Generation Changes Remaining topic for an in-depth look at issues concerning current terrain generation!

    Try out a mod that adds beach generation back into the game! http://www.minecraft...0-biome-mod-v1/


    If you support this, you can show it by signing on to this cause. Type "/signed" in your post!

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    • *Notice: The number of signatures from various posts has grown greatly since I last updated it. Until I can get around to compiling a list of signees following the last on this list I will not update this.*


    Show your support outside this thread by putting these in your signature! Copy the text as it appears in either box and paste it into your signature! Also, if you have signatures of your own to contribute, please feel free to do so!

    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 1

    posted a message on Mobs are glitching more than ever before in this snapshot(Along with other bad synchronization)
    Quote from robizzle

    Trying as in, the process of... There is always a fix. It is great they are focusing on the biggest reason all these kids with 99' computers are having problems and thinking it is lag when it doesn't seem to be causing any issues for me(Talking about laggy mob issues and such). On a side note it even brought my fps from 80 on far in 1.2.5 to 120 far in 12w25a.

    Not intended to start a flame war

    I believe these people are referring to server/multiplayer lag. Your case is an unusual one and is probably due to the recent fixes/adjustments that have boosted general performance, like the current snapshot's decreased memory usage. I truly do hope that Jeb does implement a fix before 1.3 is released, or he'll have to answer to innumerable complaints from the vast majority of startled players who (not only use lower- to mid-end computers from "99'" but also) do not bother to try out the snapshots or follow game development.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 1

    posted a message on Bring Back Beaches!
    Quote from DontStealMyBacon

    Why is this crap still around? Why are so many people whining about this? Yes the newer beaches arent exactly epic, but they never were epic. Make your own beach, it doesnt take that long and it will stay that way for as long as you want it to be there.

    Perhaps you haven't seen the screenshots of the beaches that generated prior to Beta 1.8? They were certainly more "epic" than the ones we have now, so there's no reason why we can't continue to petition for the improvement of the current beach generation. Of course, as you say, we can always make our own beaches as one could, perhaps, make their own waterfalls? Only a thought of course.
    Posted in: Suggestions
  • 1

    posted a message on New huge biome option!
    Quote from narutoall76

    Play the old version, nothing is stopping you :l
    That would waste time, as they improve it for a reason.

    Please explain how the newer terrain generator is an improvement over the older one. The inclusion of pictures that supports said argument would be preferable. I'd like to also mention how some people might want to play using the older terrain generator but with the newer game mechanics as well. You can't do that on older versions of Minecraft.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 2

    posted a message on MCX360 - The Good, The Bad, The Awesome
    Quote from sleezymcwheezy

    Wait, what? MC360 only has features from Beta 1.6? I never knew that, and I was so pumped about being able to play Minecraft on the Xbox, but now that I know it isn't even the full released game, I'm not even going to buy it.

    What's the point of "finishing" Minecraft and "releasing" the "full version", when the Minecraft for Xbox isn't even the full game? What a horrible idea. To think I was actually excited for it, and I'm just receiving an unfinished piece of trash that I've already paid for and enjoyed to a further extent.

    Minecraft 1.0 was more unfinished and unbalanced than Beta 1.6 in many respects, not limited to the End, Enchanting, terrain gen, and basically every other new feature Notch/Jeb threw in after Beta 1.7.3, many of which Jeb and the rest of Mojang team are still tweaking to this day. Beta 1.7.3 was probably the most polished and balanced Minecraft could be, since the core gameplay mechanics that existed then had several game dev cycles to perfect. On the major plus side is the older terrain generator, god forbid Mojang and 4J Studios from changing the older gen to the "piece of trash" we have now.
    Posted in: Minecraft News
  • 2

    posted a message on Biomes are screwed up...
    Quote from Xinkc

    I will agree with you about transition coloration needing to be smoother. I don't think most people will argue that it isn't abrupt and somewhat disconcerting.

    However, the biomes are not designed/planned to have a set order. It does not need to be fixed because, program-wise, it is not broken. Most of the reasons for biomes to generate "logically are a matter of personal aesthetic taste and a desire for a cube-based world to be more realistic. Those reasons aren't objective though. They are not reason enough to change the game for everyone.

    Anyways, you bought a game that has had biome generation like this for over a year. Said game had never shown any indication of having biomes generate in a logical manner, nor had the developers ever expressed an interest in doing so (as far as I know). Why are you suprised that they aren't making changes that they've never talked about nor expressed interest in?

    Ahem, this current gen has technically existed for no more than a month as the new jungle biomes somewhat changed the 1.1 biome gen since it was introduced in Snapshot 12w03a, which was only a month and a half ago I believe. The base gen has been changed at least twice in the past few months, in Beta 1.8 and the Beta 1.9 (Release 1.0) Pre-releases. The current terrain gen is obviously considerably younger than what you stated it to be.

    And the Mojang developers, Notch namely, did intend for biome gen that was more logical than the current one in place. The base terrain/biome generator that was used until Beta 1.8 was introduced in Halloween Update Alpha, version Alpha 1.2.0. This same generator (or at least its derivatives) was used for several months virtually unchanged up to Beta 1.7, and was compatible with every single update back to Alpha 1.2. It incorporated a noise-based generator that factored temperature and humidity that allowed for very smooth transitions between biomes (i.e. Shrublands often served as a buffer between forest and savanna biomes). Not only that, it had a relatively superior structure generation in terms of beaches, underwater geology, topographical variation, etc. This is what made the Beta 1.7 terrain gen arguably the best to most in comparison to the Beta 1.8/1.0 generators.

    One of the main reasons the new fractal-based generator was introduced was to circumvent problems concerning village generation and the such. It was a quick fix for a problem, judging from released screenshots, that should not have been necessary. Instead of simply addressing the problems concerning structure generation and other minor problems (ocean biomes, etc.) under the 1.7 gen, Jeb/Notch simply made more trouble for themselves as they have had to change the terrain gen several times, ultimately leading to what we have now. There isn't even any indication that biome gen will not change in the near future.

    Current terrain gen may not be "broken" by any means at all, but it certainly isn't better than what we used to have.
    Posted in: Recent Updates and Snapshots
  • 3

    posted a message on World height will be increased!
    Quote from DaBiggman

    I told you people.

    I TOLD YOU good things were on their way with Notch out and Jens in.

    I told you, but nooooooooooooooooo. You stood to your false messiah and thought with Notch gone, how can anything good happen?

    Wait, what's this? Jens listens to the community and doesn't put in completely stupid and random ****?

    Yeah, thought so.

    And I thought people would finally stop harassing Notch; Yes, he's gone, and Jeb is doing better things now. But it's been this way for over two months now! Don't you have better things to do than beat a dead horse? People know you are right; stop being so critical of Notch with every opportunity you get.

    I shouldn't also have to remind you, but Notch did initially try to change world height, similarly to the Cubic Chunks mod. Of course, it wouldn't be a feasible option, performance being a major issue, though I doubt your opinion of Notch would have changed if he was the one who added it, not Jeb.

    I don't see why you hate him so much. He's not lead developer anymore, and hasn't been for months now. Yet you perpetually act like he's the antichrist or something. He's moved on, why can't you?
    Posted in: 1.1 Update Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on The worst part about Minecraft is...
    I think the forum community has simply become so large that everyone wishes to put in their proverbial two cents.

    Also, it seems though that following Beta 1.8, the amount of rabble greatly increased due to the discontent with the features in that particular update and mostly all of the following updates. I suppose that since Notch and/or Jeb just introduced and/or changed so many features at the same time, players were overwhelmed by the fact the game they once knew was radically transformed in multiple aspects.

    Not to say that many of the changes were bad, but the result of the Adventure Update just led to much complaining on the various features, whether their arguments were justified or otherwise.

    I do agree that some criticism is valid, as long as such complaints are fairly reasonable. I would think terrain gen is an excellent example of this, as many superior features were removed in Beta 1.8's terrain gen (although Jeb does seem like he is on his way on remedying this).

    But in any case, people are just inherently resistant to change. There's not much one can do about that; there will always be whiners. I think the best solution is to just give acknowledgement to those with valid arguments and ignore the rest of the riff-raff.
    Posted in: 1.1 Update Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on I give you, the Tundrgle biome...
    I'd rather want to avoid all of the recent flaming in this rather ugly topic, but one does have to wonder what prompted Notch to remove the older terrain generator at all. All of the planned Beta 1.8 structures was compatible to a degree with the older gen. I can't see why Notch and/or Jeb would want to try to address all of the problems (that is to say, complaints) in the new terrain gen rather than the bugs with the structure generation under the 1.7.3 terrain gen that nobody would've really cared as much about.

    The older terrain generator, as far as I know, did not receive as many complaints on the forums as the current one. Also, I'd like to also point out that the older gen has been used for several versions with minor modifications that did not require new worlds to circumvent those chunk errors in which old and new terrain gen met. I'm not a coder but it appears that the base terrain code from as far as Beta 1.7.3 has been largely the same since at most early Alpha.

    Terrain gen has been changed three times since Beta 1.8, all within the past 3-4 months, leading to people having to restart their worlds at least as many times. I don't think the older terrain generator, having been around for about a year, had the same problem.

    Could somebody verify that? It would be interesting to see if Pre-/Post-Halloween Update Alpha was compatible with Beta 1.7.3 terrain, though I'm sure it would be. I am positive though that 1.7.3 terrain was compatible with Beta 1.3 terrain generation, still being a duration of about 5-6 months.

    Please note though that this isn't a plea for the current terrain gen to be reverted or anything of that sort. I'm simply pointing out why replacing the older terrain gen may have been somewhat unnecessary and too much trouble to be really worth it.
    Posted in: 1.1 Update Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on The Irrelevance of Hostile Mob Farms
    Summary: Mob farms have been made obsolete by the introduction of experience and XP farming. My observations show that the benefits of constructing an XP farm instead of a hostile mob farm outweigh the negative consequences. For details why, read the rather lengthy post below.

    In light of the recent updates and features, namely experience, I have noticed a trend that has signaled the obsolescence of the hostile mob farm. From my observations concerning Youtube Minecraft players, the forums, as well as my own plans for my personal SSP world, it seems that the XP farms have just about replaced them.

    This was caused by the repetitive, "grinding" nature of the current experience system, rendering even moderately-leveled enchantments impractical without some XP farm or grinder. Constructing one is far more easier and resource-efficient than would be for a hostile mob farm, requiring the excavation or construction of large dark chambers as well as the lighting of caves if ground-based, for those who have the resources and time to do either.

    XP farms are superior in efficiency as well to their counterparts, provided that you have built one in conditions that maximize spawn rates in a minimum amount of time (ideally Cave Spider/Blaze Spawners). Hostile mob farms produce the full-range of common hostile mobs, each producing a specific item. Creatures produced using an XP farm, using the example of Cave Spiders, an ideal creature for such a machine, would be of only a single type, yet would yield not only experience, but various items that could fulfill, if not supplant the main purposes of items produced from a normal hostile mob farm.

    Take the standard hostile mob farm, one that produces spiders, skeletons, zombies, and creepers (Endermen are excluded due to complications that would arise due to their distaste of water). Spiders produce string and spider eyes, skeletons produce bones and arrows, zombies produce rotten meat, and creepers produce gunpowder.

    Now take the XP farm, using said example. Cave spiders are the only mobs to be used in this machine, but they produce experience, string, and spider eyes. Now though these creatures may be little different from their larger relatives, the cave spider can completely replace the need for hostile mob farms. They can obviously replace standard spiders, but they can also replace zombies as spider eyes remove the need for rotten flesh as a source of food.

    Experience is the greatest advantage that an XP farm possesses. As many know, XP is used to enchant tools, weapons, armor, and soon-to-be bows to great effect, producing items that can last many times longer than its regular counterpart or be several times as strong. The benefits of enchanted armor and weapons for the most part abandons the need for arrows in lieu of extremely potent weapons and armor, save for bones. The need for gunpowder from creepers is also negated since high-level enchantments on iron/diamond-based tools can accelerate mining and harvesting operations to the point that TNT is unnecessary.

    Hostile mob farms also have a propensity to simply "stop," a peculiar phenomenon that I have observed on several occasions on previous worlds. Mob farms will also cease to function, if not seriously degrade in efficiency once the mob cap is reached or if mobs spawn in insufficiently-lit areas. XP farms, properly constructed and distanced from the original spawner, can currently create a virtually infinite flow of mobs (meaning that the mob cap can be circumvented) at a constant rate of spawning. The only real disadvantage to the spawn mechanics compared to a mob farm is that a use is required to be within 15 blocks of the spawner in use, and he/she must often be AFK in order for mobs to accumulate in some "killing" chamber.

    Are XP farms better to build than the older hostile mob farm? It seems so, but I plan to do both, although the hostile mob farm shall be first to be constructed. I prefer the mob farm myself, but what are your thoughts on this? I imagine this has already been determined, but it is new for me.

    NOTE: This is not a hate thread of any sort, simply an observation concerning the benefits between said hostile mob farming techniques. I only put this out there because of the influx of both whiners complaining without reason and those who hatefully respond without reason.
    Posted in: Discussion
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