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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Falcrist

    Nobody has suggested anyone is in the wrong for not playing Minecraft. I do think it's questionable when people who claim to have stopped playing hang around and criticize the game. I've seen it happen in other communities, and it makes no sense to me.


    It's the nature of modern society to foster and allow people to disagree with anything using the defense that they have the right to voice their opinion. In the case of economics and product purchases, people have a right to voice complaints against the manufacturer of a product in order to provide feedback to the manufacturer so that their product can improve and investments are kept fruitful.

    Simply -- people bought Minecraft and are upset because their investment has turned sour.

    Sure, you could cite the Terms of Agreement with the purchase, but it doesn't take away their right to voice their complaints. The idea is that consumer feedback is key in the growth and expansion of a manufacturer's product. It has become an innate urge in society to voice feedback not only for the good of the people but for the good of the manufacturer.

    People generally don't stick around because they have a beef with the manufacturer but mainly because our society fosters a belief in people that they can and should voice their opinion for the better sake of society.

    Is that a sufficient answer?
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Falcrist

    Now, you can be as mad as you want, but vilifying Mojang or projecting incompetence onto them isn't going to help bring about the changes proposed in this thread. I'm sure you're upset that they don't feel the same way as you do about the terrain, but maybe... just maybe, they LIKE how terrain is currently generated. Crazy idea, I know.


    1. I'm not projecting incompetence on them. I think they are fully capable of changing the generator but since Notch was the one who put it in place I think they are apprehensive about touching code they didn't write. The hope I have in this post is not that they see it and make the best terrain there could possibly be but that they try.

    2. I'm not sure what points you are trying to make here. I'm reminded of a submarine that has just lost radio connection to their home base and keep trying to reestablish connection. Then there is always the guy who says "They can't hear you!" every time the radio operator relays the sub's location. Moral of the story; it doesn't help to continually point out the obvious during a struggle.


    Quote from Falcrist

    Alternatively, they just don't care.


    Then allow us to give them reason to.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Falcrist

    1) There is no such thing as perfect software.
    2) There are as many different definitions of perfection as there are people. The developers will never live up to your definition of perfection.


    The thing you are missing about perfection is that it comes through determination. ("Practice makes perfect" ring a bell?)

    So unless people continually strive toward perfection then your definition of perfection isn't rational. So why be defeatist and conclude that since nothing can ever be perfectly perfect that they should just leave it as is?

    Even if Mojang can't live up to my personal idea of perfect terrain, at least they could try to make it the best they can for everyone.

    There has been no such effort from Mojang for the past year and a half. That would make their generator far from perfect.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from vasouv

    I understand what you say but Minecraft is so much more than just a game of exploration. Mods, servers, custom maps, redstone contraptions... There's so much stuff that takes one's mind off of vanilla, it's easy to disregard the terrain.


    Sorry I'm responding late.

    I think you just proved my point though.

    Mods are extensions to the game, not the game itself. In saying that mods are required to allow the game to be playable means the game is not a feature-full game as is. It means that the developer failed to create a game scenario where goals, failure, and a sense of accomplishment are all featured. When a mod adds more content than the game originally provides, then you aren't playing the original developer's game but the new modder's game.

    For everything else, servers, custom maps, redstone -- all these things are just extensions of the core survival/exploration game. If you focus on those features alone, you get an entirely different game. With those features alone you can barely even call it a game.

    Sure, there could be a server where all people do is build on flat planes with textured blocks, much like how creative-mode servers were in the beginning but, in the gaming industry, things like this aren't classified as games but as sandboxes. Something like Garry's mod is officially a physics sandbox. It has no fail-state, challenges, or goals. The fact of the matter is that without user-created content, there are no goals, fail-states, or challenges to allow the sandbox to be classified as a game. You can't really lose at playing with legos unless you personally make a game out of it. In that sense, I wouldn't even begin to classify Minecraft as a game without the normal survival mode.

    Custom maps fall into a similar field as mods do. Custom maps are user created, and if that is the only reason to play Minecraft, then Minecraft not only stops being classified as a game or a sandbox but it becomes a development engine. If the only reason to play Minecraft was for the custom maps, then what's the difference between it and something like the Unreal Engine or the Quake engine?

    Finally, we come to redstone contraptions. With just the redstone contraptions you don't really have a game either, as much as you have a logic simulator. In all reality, redstone does the same thing that a breadboard and a couple of wires can do in a Digital I class. That's why Digital teachers are starting to use Minecraft to teach on an entry level because it is so simple and doesn't cost 100+ bucks in electronic supplies.

    My ultimate point is that Minecraft, by default of its current conception, is an exploration game with sandbox elements. I say exploration first because there is a clear order of challenges the user must complete to "win" the game. GTA4 for example, isn't classified as a sandbox game. It is classified as an action-adventure/3rd person shooter game with sandbox elements. If you take away the world/city in GTA4, sure there is a modding scene, servers, and even a physics engine to toy with but in the end the launched game is more of an engine rather than an actual game.

    That's what Minecraft is without a dynamic world to play in - a city-less GTA. That's what I mean when I say Minecraft without terrain isn't a game, because it really isn't. It becomes one of three things - an open-source-like base software for modders, a game engine, or a logic simulator. All of which most people don't classify as a full-feature game.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from danix111

    What's most nonsensical with the sliders is that Dinnerbone wants to do them before a new generator, and he talked about them like about an internal thing in the generator, over the generator itself. Really, customization over generality?


    One of the major issues with the old generator is that with every new update to the generation people would have to adjust their maps (chunk walls, missing biomes, biome shifting). If the sliders are done right then there's a chance that the impact of updates could be nullified.

    If they are done right and apply to chunks added from new updates to the generation then it could help bridge the gap between the horrid chunk walls. The new chunks could reference the sliders and not a random seed that keeps shifting and instead of a chunk wall forming it would be able to adhere to the preset slider settings.

    Removal of such transitions could allow worlds to better accept new biomes and generation features because less is reliant on random seeds that keep changing by nature of the programming.

    But you have a good point.

    I, personally, would like sliders and think they could be used as a tool to better merge old generation features with new generation features. But on the same hand I have no faith in Mojang's ability to foresee the strengths of sliders and how to work around the weaknesses.

    I've been silent here for the last few months mainly because I already know that there will be a train-wreck of a generator presented to us in the near future, but do not yet have the evidence to prove its pure inadequacy, as it does not yet exist. There's no use arguing about features that not only do not exist yet but come from a company that has often before claimed it is doing one thing and then proceeds to do the exact opposite. It's tiresome, and the case for a new generator entirely has already been made multiple times and does not need repeating.

    In every struggle there is a time of stagnancy. This is that time. The best thing to do is solidify your arguments not based on evidence that is soon certain to change in circumstance and instead refine arguments based on principles that apply regardless of circumstance. The foremost being that shortcuts should not be made on the most important feature of the game.

    In a game of exploration, if there is no world then there is no game.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from danix111

    What happens when current swamp meets 1.7.3 beaches.





    Actually, that's not too bad. In reality, similar things happen to glades swamps in Floridian regions. When swamp meets ocean water there are noticeable grooves in the landscape showing where high tide has worn away the inlets. If the generator could change to supplement those grooves, then it would be perfect.

    Realistically, if you make the beach gravel you have something quite common in nature.

    Edit: If you type in "swamp meeting ocean" on Google images, the first five things look VERY similar to the contrast presented there.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Pencilshavings5

    I too don't like the swamp biome colors much, but they could remove that and add in some sort of, dark fog effect if they want to keep it creepy (cause of the witch huts).


    People are still downloading mods to try and get rid of void fog.

    If they add a fog above ground then they had better give an option to turn off all fog effects.

    You can work around not using grass, but you can't work around not using your interface graphics.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from trencheel303

    Call me cynical but I have a feeling this won't be far from the reality. The mail will no doubt be opened by a lacky/secretary, who will no doubt think it's just fan mail and dump it. Businesses employ people like this specifically for that reason - as a firewall. In the company where I work, we do technical support, but occasionally people write us letters requesting support. We normally work by email/phone, and apart from exceptionally rare circumstances where we must reply to maintain a healthy business relationship, the letters are dumped without replying. The boss won't even see the majority of letters coming in to the company addressed to him. The same applies here - Mojang replying to the letter sent won't affect their income or severely impact their customer relations, so if they do reply it'll merely be a goodwill gesture. As I say, call me a cynic but I'd bet a heavy wager that nothing will come from this except "thank you for writing to us... bla bla bla sincerely Mojang"... if you're lucky.


    A letter has already been sent and responded to. It was not as large or detailed as the one currently being processed and Dinnerbone himself posted on this forum.

    I know it is a long read, but people seeking to post here who have not done so before should read every post up to the most current one. Talking about things that have been settled ages ago only serves to add more confusion.

    A letter worked before, Dinnerbone got it himself, responded personally to this thread (a response that was unsatisfactory to many here), and that is what prompted the second letter.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on What Weapons Would Clowns Have?
    Quote from Crimsollite

    Endless handkerchiefs that can be used as whips.
    Also, a pinwheel that shoots the end off as a kind of shuriken-boomerang thing.


    I'll make the rolly-bomb guy pull the player in before blowing up.

    And a pinwheel seems like a good idea. Maybe it could bounce between allies and the player?
    Posted in: General Off Topic
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    posted a message on What Weapons Would Clowns Have?
    Here's one I just made using the rolly-ball idea.



    He rides an explosive bomb-ball while waving those prop endless handkerchiefs.
    Posted in: General Off Topic
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    posted a message on What Weapons Would Clowns Have?
    Quote from Erica_Hartmann12

    The clown guys (forget their names, lol) from Super Mario RPG had throwing knives and a trumpet, lol. I dunno, haven't really seen many clown bosses other than them and the ones from Wario World and Wario Land Shake It. (...and Wario Land III, lol)

    EDIT: Looked them up, lol.
    Knife Guy and Crate Guy - Super Mario RPG

    Clown-A-Round - Wario World
    He attacks by, erm, throwing his regenerated heads at you, seriously, he takes his head off and generates another one, lol.

    Chortle Bot - Wario Land: Shake It
    Basically a giant robotic clown head.


    The only thing that caught my eye is the one on the rolly-ball, not the fact he had a knife. Mainly, I need typical props that clowns use that I can design as a weapon. Knives sort of fall into that gun category, and I would much prefer to stray away from traditional weaponry. Decent finds though, but a little too evil.
    Posted in: General Off Topic
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    posted a message on What Weapons Would Clowns Have?
    Yalp...

    I fear that this is actually a legitimate question...

    I'm planning on making a game in C# which includes an army of clowns that take over the world and a rag-tag group of WW2 vets is assigned the dangerous mission to defeat them and their mysterious leader.

    The plan is it is a vertical-scrolling bullet-storm game with a special gimmick mechanic I want to keep secret.

    And with any game with enemies that you must kill, I need a lot of variety. I have a pretty good time coming up with the clown bodies, heads, etc... except for one little thing - weapons.

    Honestly, do you know how difficult it is to find a list of clown props without going to some questionable clown-supply stores (I kid thee not, there are such things) whose very links are bloated virus bags? Apparently people don't like clowns very much, so they hack their web-sites, go figure :P

    Google images doesn't help either. Clown phobias lead to many people creating photoshop images and Halloween costumes of evil clowns. I'm not going for the evil look, just the moderately creepy look that clowns normally present.

    Long story short, I've come up with a few weapon designs already:
    - A squirt-y flower that shoots three droplets in a cone pattern
    - A honky-horn that shoots spinning musical notes
    - A rubber chicken melee weapon
    - A rubber-ducky three-wheeler that vomits rainbow fireballs
    - A balloon animal dog that farts confetti shotgun blasts

    As you can see, that's not a lot. My hopes are to make at least 15 character types, with unique gimmicks and abilities.

    My "Strongman" clown for example makes a loud Arnold Schwarzenegger "EAGHEAHAAHA!" when he spawns and runs quickly towards the player, doing a lot of damage when he hits.

    My Honky-Horn clown shoots a musical note that follows a downward spiral movement and attempts to duck for cover behind boxes when available.

    My Rubber-Chicken wielding clown drops in as a balloon-suspended paratrooper that lands close to the character and attempts to get a cheap chicken-slap off before dying a horrible death.

    Additionally, every character dies by their bodies blowing up into an explosive mix of balloons and rainbow confetti, doing damage if they are too close, their head spins madly in the air and finally lands in a pool of multicolored blood. Essentially every character is a suicide bomber, so that concept is off-limits.

    And a final rule before I end this post - NO GUNS! Sure, balloon shooting cannons or pie-grenades are fun, but guns are off limits, mainly because they are too easy a concept and pretty boring at that.

    Here is a few of them as concept pictures. Body parts on my end are individual, so I'm not too worried about where these will end up because I have the full power of animation on my end, and this picture does not.

    So... Any ideas?


    PS: Yes, the rubber-ducky driver is supposed to look like Marlon Brando.
    Posted in: General Off Topic
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Exalm

    The link in your signature still doesn't work. :)
    Download now... 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... File not found.


    That's weird. I just fixed it!

    I'll see what I can do. It might be out of my hands.
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Youngy798

    If you look at extreme hills in a different texture pack they look a lot better. If you take away the blue colour it makes a big difference :D


    Too bad texture packs can't add any trees, huh?
    Posted in: Discussion
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    posted a message on Did the Terrain Become BORING? (UPDATE 6/5/13 - 1.7 is a biome update?)
    Quote from Delthyn

    And, no, I don't play in creative or peaceful. I was being sarcastic. If I really did play on creative, then terrain would not be an issue for me, because I could just terra-form the landscape.


    If you think, even in creative, you could just make your own terrain and have the same experience on it as you would with a good terrain generator, then you miss the entire point of this thread.

    Terra-forming the terrain does nothing to add a sense of adventure. What is most important about the terrain is the ability to stumble upon something awe-inspiring while it also be a random event.

    If you go around making your own terrain, then you aren't discovering anything. But in the same sense, if everything is randomly generated similarly, then you aren't discovering anything either.

    You have to have both - randomness and awe-inspiring.

    I can spend all day making an awe-inspiring landscape from scratch, but at the end of the day it doesn't have the same feel of adventure because I already know every inch of the landscape.

    I can also run around in the current generation all day and not find anything incredible. Everything is derivative of the same procedure. Really, the only difference in terrain is the biome placement. I bet you I can drop you into the same forest, at two different locations, and if I told you they were different forests, you wouldn't catch on. In truth, at any time, I can tell you that the forests are either identical or completely different, but without any landmarks you wouldn't be able to tell the difference because they follow the same pattern.

    Without a factor of randomness and land-mark monoliths, the terrain will suffer.
    That is why this thread exists.
    Posted in: Discussion
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