Hey guys, I've been reading up on philosophies,as i've been having inner conflicts whether or not to be atheist or theist, and i have a question about the theory of the Big Bang. It states that it is infinitely expanding, and, at this very moment, it is still stretching outwards, carrying galaxies, solar systems, and cosmos with it. IF this is true, and we had the required technology, would measuring the distance from our solar system to the center of the universe, recording, than doing it 100 years later, prove anything?
let's say our Sun, is exactly eighty kagillion light years from the center of the universe.
the next century, it is eighty kagillion, and 3 tenths, from the center of the unvierse.
Would this help in proving the universe is constantly expanding, and stretching? sorry if this seems a little...tongue in cheek. I'm in the 8th grade.
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"For peace is not mere absence of war, but is a virtue that springs from, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
There was nothing. Then nothing apparently exploded for no reason, creating everything. Everything bunched together into giant balls. Soon enough, there were dinosaurs.
Well, we've already seen stars and planets moving out from each other. I have no idea what other proof there could be that it is expanding. If you're confused on the philosophy of how we got here, I suggest you ask questions in the religion thread.
There are a lot of smart people there that can help you.
Edit: I know your position, so I know this might be oddly confusing to you right now.
There was nothing. Then nothing apparently exploded for no reason, creating everything. Everything bunched together into giant balls. Soon enough, there were dinosaurs.
Well, we've already seen stars and planets moving out from each other. I have no idea what other proof there could be that it is expanding. If you're confused on the philosophy of how we got here, I suggest you ask questions in the religion thread.
There are a lot of smart people there that can help you.
Edit: I know your position, so I know this might be oddly confusing to you right now.
Thank you. Might i have a link to this religion thread?
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"For peace is not mere absence of war, but is a virtue that springs from, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
In the beginning, all the matter of the Universe was in a very dense point. Then, for no apparent reason, it all began to expand rapidly. The matter clustered into planets and stars,, planets and stars clustered into galaxies, etc. The Universe, according to science, is going to expand forever. Or, possibly, gravity will make all the matter in the Universe again come into in very dense point, and the process will restart it self.
Off-Topic: I find it funny how it sounds kind of tongue in cheek because your in 8th grade. Well I'm in 6th grade.
It expanded because obviously things that become heated expand. The universe was treated as so. Also, what you're referencing to about the gravity restarting the universe is a different theory.
In the beginning, all the matter of the Universe was in a very dense point. Then, for no apparent reason, it all began to expand rapidly. The matter clustered into planets and stars,, planets and stars clustered into galaxies, etc. The Universe, according to science, is going to expand forever. Or, possibly, gravity will make all the matter in the Universe again come into in very dense point, and the process will restart it self.
Off-Topic: I find it funny how it sounds kind of tongue in cheek because your in 8th grade. Well I'm in 6th grade.
Haha. Are those your words or did you copy and paste it? Kudos if they are yours. You seem really smart. smarter than me anyway.
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"For peace is not mere absence of war, but is a virtue that springs from, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
Clockwise being a subjective term, it's based on the point of view, thus objectively unaswerable.
Not to mention it would be going clockwise or vice versa when looking at it from the top, but... where is the top? Seeing as there is no definite gravitational pull outside of the Earth's atmosphere, therefore it seems perhaps impossible to measure the top and bottom.
Not to mention it would be going clockwise or vice versa when looking at it from the top, but... where is the top? Seeing as there is no definite gravitational pull outside of the Earth's atmosphere, therefore it seems perhaps impossible to measure the top and bottom.
For all we know Antarctica could be the north pole.
How are you trying to link this with the matter of religion?
Most religions oppose the Big bang theory as Blasphemy.
I think the big bang theory is true except for one part. You don't create matter, yet create anything from nothing. The 100, maybe more forms of matter existed in clumps, gathered, and boom. Everything chemically and physically reacts in some form. Extreme compression and heat gives you diamond, which is carbon. Extreme friction gives you heat. Gravity is created by matter big enough to obtain a gravitational pull.
It all inter-connects and we weren't created from nothing. We were created from something, and religion defiantly does not play a role.
Edit: On topic: If technology permits it, and the universe is indeed expanding, we could find out what you are looking for. Although, it will probably take more than one hundred years to find any sort of difference.
as i've been having inner conflicts whether or not to be atheist or theist,
It's not much of a choice. If you believe a god exists then you are a theist, otherwise you are an atheist.
and i have a question about the theory of the Big Bang.
Let's have it then.
It states that it is infinitely expanding,
"Infinitely expanding" is nonsensical. I have no idea what you are talking about.
and, at this very moment, it is still stretching outwards, carrying galaxies, solar systems, and cosmos with it.
Correct. Space-time is expanding at an ever increasing rate so far as we can tell.
IF this is true, and we had the required technology,
We already have the technology necessary to measure the expansion speed.
would measuring the distance from our solar system to the center of the universe,
There is no center of the universe. The universe looks approximately the same to all observers anywhere in the universe (i.e. being surrounded by stars and galaxies).
recording, than doing it 100 years later, prove anything? let's say our Sun, is exactly eighty kagillion light years from the center of the universe.
the next century, it is eighty kagillion, and 3 tenths, from the center of the unvierse.
Would this help in proving the universe is constantly expanding, and stretching?
It would not prove anything in and of itself. Some stellar objects are moving towards each other. Take the Andromeda galaxy for example. It is on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy.
What is required is to measure the average movement of all visible stellar objects. When we do this we see that the vast majority are receding from us, and that the farther the objects are, the faster they are moving away from us.
sorry if this seems a little...tongue in cheek. I'm in the 8th grade.
Knowledge is valuable. So long as your questions are honest people will usually wish to respond. Big bang cosmology does not inherently conflict with theism.
I think the big bang theory is true except for one part. You don't create matter, yet create anything from nothing.
Matter is constantly being created and annihilated every moment, out of literally nothing. Please read up on virtual particles. The universe literally is something out of nothing; it has a net energy of 0.
The 100, maybe more forms of matter existed in clumps, gathered, and boom.
I beg your pardon?
Everything chemically and physically reacts in some form.
Not everything does. Chemical reactions require electron exchange. Photons, for example, do no have electrons and thus cannot undergo chemical reactions.
Extreme compression and heat gives you diamond, which is carbon.
Pressure and heat by itself will not forge diamond. You need carbon atoms to compress. Too much pressure and heat and you will fuse the carbon atoms into neon, sodium, and magnesium. This actually happens in massive stars.
Gravity is created by matter big enough to obtain a gravitational pull.
Gravity is exhibited by anything with mass. Size is irrelevant.
I recommend not making any life altering decisions like this one at a younger age (which you seem to be). Not at least until your early to mid twenties when your logical thinking has fully developed.
Indeed.
Personally, I would stay theist for two reasons:
Belief is not a choice. If you are convinced that a proposition is true then you will believe it.
1. Theoretically, God exists. I have proved it in the past. Not absolutely, but theoretically.
Bring it to the religion thread for deconstruction.
2. If God does end up existing, ignorance towards him will yield temporary, but very painful consequences.
If you are a Battletech/Mechwarrior geek you may enjoy my Timberwolf/MADCAT model (the source of my avatar) (warning: image-heavy link target) I will often edit my posts after I have posted them in an attempt to improve their clarity (I value a few high quality posts over several low quality ones; the more lengthy the post, the more time it requires to edit) so you might want to wait for a while if this post is recent and refresh to see if anything has changed before replying to it.
Well, I've heard about red shift, since galaxies are moving apart they're moving away mostly so the frequency of light gets stretched more to the red-er side of the spectrum (lower frequency) Kinda like with sound, if something(a ambulance with siren) Is moving toward you it seems higher pitched than when its moving away..
This doesn't prove the big bang theory, although the big bang theory uses this.
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
- Isaiah 40:22
Many places in the Bible use the expression of God 'stretching out the heavens.'
As objects get farther and farther away from the earth, the light waves get stretched more and more, which is called the Doppler effect. This makes the waves longer in wavelength, or more red. We can measure the increase in wavelength over time and it translates to an increase in distance between the object in space and the earth.
1. On your brief mention that you're trying to 'decide between atheism and theism'. You should understand the Science and Religion are not at all contradictory. People who think they are are misguided and use that as propoganda to encourage their own views.
As well, I'll also point out that I don't think you "decide" to believe in theism. Believing in theism is something that people do because they feel, understand, or experience god(s). You can look merely at evidence for/against but if you are going to look purely at "scientific evidence", you will not find evidence for God because science does not try to prove or disprove the existence god(s). They science deals with the observable universe and understanding it. Science does not try to figure out "Why" but "How".
Personally, I like to think of it this way: 'Searching for God' is like trying to find an elephant with a microscope. Even if you were looking directly at it, you probably wouldn't recognize it. People who want to see God should simply just open their eyes and see... but that is much easier said than done... And again this is just my personal view. To each his own.
I'll leave the rest of this discussion for another time since it's not the main point of the topic.
2. We don't need to be able to directly observe movement of our systems to acknowledge the Big Bang theory. We already have plenty of data that supports it and is one of the most predominant theories in science. There is tons of data that is consistent with the theory and observable.
Now I don't think you asked for an explanation of it, but I saw a lot of misinformation in the topic explaining the Big Bang theory, so I'll sum things up.
The universe was once an infinitely dense singularity, composing all matter and time in a single instant, a single point. Then for reasons we can not currently explain (absolutely not "for no reason"!) the singularity began to expand. Some current theories suggest that the initial expansion may have been caused by antimatter and matter, which typically 'annihilate' (destroy, and then spread the energy of) each other. In our universe there was a slight imbalance where matter won over antimatter, and thus matter was created in that instant. This is one of the more currently accepted hypothesis for the initial 'bang'.
Although, the laws of the singularity are infinitely more complex than the laws of our current universe. So we don't even really have much basis for understanding what went on inside of a singularity.
In essence, the laws of physics, and even time itself, did not exist until an instant after the initial 'bang' occurred. The initial 'bang' created all 'space-time' and our universe as we know it.
Along with the expanding singularity, the dense hydrogen and helium atoms began to collide and form the earliest stars. Those stars then fused the atoms in nuclear fusion to create all the elements we know exist today, such as carbon and iron.
Eventually matter began to settle down and spread out to form galaxies and solar systems, and etc. that we understand exist today.
^ That is basically the simplified 'Big Bang Theory'... may have forgotten a thing or two because I explained it from memory, but I don't think I left out anything important for understanding the events.
From what reference frame do we find the center of the universe?
It is on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy.
This is true. Of course, since by that time Earth's Sun will have gone Supergiant, I imagine we would have bigger problems. Assuming we hadn't gone extinct billions of years prior, which is far more likely. I've never really liked the term "collision" in this context, since it makes it sound like everything will smash together. Most of the effects will probably be gravitational.
On the other hand, Andromeda is the Only visible object of relevant size coming towards us, so it may be that it itself is the result of an interaction with some other galaxy, and gravitation changed it's path so that it was "coming towards" us. Truthfully, the same could be said of the Milky way, since from Andromeda's perspective it is the Milky way that appears blue-shifted.
Pascal's Wager fails on so many levels.
Yep, "Betting on infinity" I think is a good summary of them.
let's say our Sun, is exactly eighty kagillion light years from the center of the universe.
the next century, it is eighty kagillion, and 3 tenths, from the center of the unvierse.
Would this help in proving the universe is constantly expanding, and stretching? sorry if this seems a little...tongue in cheek. I'm in the 8th grade.
"For peace is not mere absence of war, but is a virtue that springs from, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
There are a lot of smart people there that can help you.
Edit: I know your position, so I know this might be oddly confusing to you right now.
Thanks. That helps so much.
I guess i Just feel if this has a bit of evidence, or a possibility of finding evidence, it'd make it easier to decide.
Thank you. Might i have a link to this religion thread?
"For peace is not mere absence of war, but is a virtue that springs from, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
Here you go.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/545193-religion/
I think if you want some answers on the Big Bang theory and the origins of life, you should talk to Metadigital or Yourself.
Both very smart people.
It expanded because obviously things that become heated expand. The universe was treated as so. Also, what you're referencing to about the gravity restarting the universe is a different theory.
Haha. Are those your words or did you copy and paste it? Kudos if they are yours. You seem really smart. smarter than me anyway.
"For peace is not mere absence of war, but is a virtue that springs from, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
Which way does the Earth rotate around the Sun, clockwise or counter-clockwise?
Un-answerable question right there.
Not to mention it would be going clockwise or vice versa when looking at it from the top, but... where is the top? Seeing as there is no definite gravitational pull outside of the Earth's atmosphere, therefore it seems perhaps impossible to measure the top and bottom.
For all we know Antarctica could be the north pole.
Most religions oppose the Big bang theory as Blasphemy.
I think the big bang theory is true except for one part. You don't create matter, yet create anything from nothing. The 100, maybe more forms of matter existed in clumps, gathered, and boom. Everything chemically and physically reacts in some form. Extreme compression and heat gives you diamond, which is carbon. Extreme friction gives you heat. Gravity is created by matter big enough to obtain a gravitational pull.
It all inter-connects and we weren't created from nothing. We were created from something, and religion defiantly does not play a role.
Edit: On topic: If technology permits it, and the universe is indeed expanding, we could find out what you are looking for. Although, it will probably take more than one hundred years to find any sort of difference.
Totally New at running servers? Click me!
I wonder if sansavarous is online...
Yup. :tongue.gif:
Totally New at running servers? Click me!
I wonder if sansavarous is online...
I'm not a philosopher.
It's not much of a choice. If you believe a god exists then you are a theist, otherwise you are an atheist.
Let's have it then.
"Infinitely expanding" is nonsensical. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Correct. Space-time is expanding at an ever increasing rate so far as we can tell.
We already have the technology necessary to measure the expansion speed.
There is no center of the universe. The universe looks approximately the same to all observers anywhere in the universe (i.e. being surrounded by stars and galaxies).
It would not prove anything in and of itself. Some stellar objects are moving towards each other. Take the Andromeda galaxy for example. It is on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy.
What is required is to measure the average movement of all visible stellar objects. When we do this we see that the vast majority are receding from us, and that the farther the objects are, the faster they are moving away from us.
Knowledge is valuable. So long as your questions are honest people will usually wish to respond. Big bang cosmology does not inherently conflict with theism.
Matter is constantly being created and annihilated every moment, out of literally nothing. Please read up on virtual particles. The universe literally is something out of nothing; it has a net energy of 0.
I beg your pardon?
Not everything does. Chemical reactions require electron exchange. Photons, for example, do no have electrons and thus cannot undergo chemical reactions.
Pressure and heat by itself will not forge diamond. You need carbon atoms to compress. Too much pressure and heat and you will fuse the carbon atoms into neon, sodium, and magnesium. This actually happens in massive stars.
Gravity is exhibited by anything with mass. Size is irrelevant.
Indeed.
Belief is not a choice. If you are convinced that a proposition is true then you will believe it.
Bring it to the religion thread for deconstruction.
Pascal's Wager fails on so many levels.
I will often edit my posts after I have posted them in an attempt to improve their clarity (I value a few high quality posts over several low quality ones; the more lengthy the post, the more time it requires to edit) so you might want to wait for a while if this post is recent and refresh to see if anything has changed before replying to it.
This doesn't prove the big bang theory, although the big bang theory uses this.
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
- Isaiah 40:22
Many places in the Bible use the expression of God 'stretching out the heavens.'
It is.
YA.
We put south as north so north means up on a compass.
It's hard to explain.
;'''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift
As objects get farther and farther away from the earth, the light waves get stretched more and more, which is called the Doppler effect. This makes the waves longer in wavelength, or more red. We can measure the increase in wavelength over time and it translates to an increase in distance between the object in space and the earth.
You heard that, green and red.
*brofist
That show is awesome.
BBCode Render failed due to reaching MaxNestingDepth(80) for Tag: spoiler
1. On your brief mention that you're trying to 'decide between atheism and theism'. You should understand the Science and Religion are not at all contradictory. People who think they are are misguided and use that as propoganda to encourage their own views.
As well, I'll also point out that I don't think you "decide" to believe in theism. Believing in theism is something that people do because they feel, understand, or experience god(s). You can look merely at evidence for/against but if you are going to look purely at "scientific evidence", you will not find evidence for God because science does not try to prove or disprove the existence god(s). They science deals with the observable universe and understanding it. Science does not try to figure out "Why" but "How".
Personally, I like to think of it this way: 'Searching for God' is like trying to find an elephant with a microscope. Even if you were looking directly at it, you probably wouldn't recognize it. People who want to see God should simply just open their eyes and see... but that is much easier said than done... And again this is just my personal view. To each his own.
I'll leave the rest of this discussion for another time since it's not the main point of the topic.
2. We don't need to be able to directly observe movement of our systems to acknowledge the Big Bang theory. We already have plenty of data that supports it and is one of the most predominant theories in science. There is tons of data that is consistent with the theory and observable.
We already know that the universe was once a singularity because of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation) we have observed in the universe. It gives us a detailed map of the origin of the universe.
Likewise we know that the universe is expanding because it is supported by observable 'Red Shift' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Shift).
Now I don't think you asked for an explanation of it, but I saw a lot of misinformation in the topic explaining the Big Bang theory, so I'll sum things up.
The universe was once an infinitely dense singularity, composing all matter and time in a single instant, a single point. Then for reasons we can not currently explain (absolutely not "for no reason"!) the singularity began to expand. Some current theories suggest that the initial expansion may have been caused by antimatter and matter, which typically 'annihilate' (destroy, and then spread the energy of) each other. In our universe there was a slight imbalance where matter won over antimatter, and thus matter was created in that instant. This is one of the more currently accepted hypothesis for the initial 'bang'.
Although, the laws of the singularity are infinitely more complex than the laws of our current universe. So we don't even really have much basis for understanding what went on inside of a singularity.
In essence, the laws of physics, and even time itself, did not exist until an instant after the initial 'bang' occurred. The initial 'bang' created all 'space-time' and our universe as we know it.
Along with the expanding singularity, the dense hydrogen and helium atoms began to collide and form the earliest stars. Those stars then fused the atoms in nuclear fusion to create all the elements we know exist today, such as carbon and iron.
Eventually matter began to settle down and spread out to form galaxies and solar systems, and etc. that we understand exist today.
^ That is basically the simplified 'Big Bang Theory'... may have forgotten a thing or two because I explained it from memory, but I don't think I left out anything important for understanding the events.
This is true. Of course, since by that time Earth's Sun will have gone Supergiant, I imagine we would have bigger problems. Assuming we hadn't gone extinct billions of years prior, which is far more likely. I've never really liked the term "collision" in this context, since it makes it sound like everything will smash together. Most of the effects will probably be gravitational.
On the other hand, Andromeda is the Only visible object of relevant size coming towards us, so it may be that it itself is the result of an interaction with some other galaxy, and gravitation changed it's path so that it was "coming towards" us. Truthfully, the same could be said of the Milky way, since from Andromeda's perspective it is the Milky way that appears blue-shifted.
Yep, "Betting on infinity" I think is a good summary of them.