I already brought up uncertainty (= QM) in that nothing that exists is completely determined.
Aha, but even quantum events support probabilistic determinism. That is to say: we succeed in predicting particle paths in far more cases than not. What this results in is things on macro level (in which we live) acting just as classical determinism would predict. For all intents and purposes, the ball will bounce from the wall even if a statistically negligible percentage of it's particles will stick to or pass through said wall.
It's also worth noting that there are deterministic interpretations of QM, like Bohmian interpretation.
Finally, pointing at uncertainty doesn't advance the argument for free will. Free will isn't randomness, yes?
To be honest I find the entire concept of libertarianism incoherent.
We Orthodox hold that only God is completely self-determined, but that in our rebirth in baptism we become actually self-determined in our being. There's a mind-blowing book on this called 'The Person in the Orthodox Tradition' which points out that the very concept of 'being born from above' is itself the act of self-recreation, in which libertarian free will becomes possible.
As Frithjof Schoun said to a woman who didn't like her birth stars, "get new ones."
Well, I haven't read the book so I can't respond adequately. Any more accessible sources?
Total freedom sounds very cool and inspiring, but the evidence against it is innumerable.
Even your quote to me seems like idealistic naïveté, even if perhaps useful in life.
"I don't like my lack of legs" said the cripple. "Get new ones!" said RiverC :wink.gif:
Of course free will exist. I could go downstairs right now and **** on my mom, or rape my neighbor, or rob a bank.
Indeed you could, but is that really a freedom or were those specific actions the result of reading this topic and a set of deterministic chemical reactions playing out to produce that list of potential actions? One clear limit is that you're only capable of doing things that you can think of. You are not free to do those things that you can't think of. Naturally this is obvious, but I merely bring it up to point out that any kind of free will you might think of isn't completely free.
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Of course free will exist. I could go downstairs right now and **** on my mom, or rape my neighbor, or rob a bank.
Indeed you could, but is that really a freedom or were those specific actions the result of reading this topic and a set of deterministic chemical reactions playing out to produce that list of potential actions? One clear limit is that you're only capable of doing things that you can think of. You are not free to do those things that you can't think of. Naturally this is obvious, but I merely bring it up to point out that any kind of free will you might think of isn't completely free.
Absolute free will does not exist in an ordinary context. But what would you do with it if you had it? The lack of total self-determination does not make one un-free. The idea that we don't have absolute free will is often associated with an attempt to circumscribe or determine human behavior through some manner of heuristic. Whether or not we have ultimate free will or not, these attempts have all failed miserably. Within certain limited contexts patterns emerge, but 'the heart has reasons the reason knows not of', as the poet says.
I like to think I have free will. I'm pretty sure I do. I chose to be an atheist, I chose to be a furry and Bi-sexual. I don't think there could've been anything lined up for that to happen. It was my choice.
I don't know, I don't have the freedom to make that assessment. Based on the idea of the Abrahamic God, if I had that kind of freedom I'd probably make a universe and then make some pretty arbitrary and contradictory decisions afterwards.
Whether or not we have ultimate free will or not, these attempts have all failed miserably.
So would attempts to predict the outcome of any complicated system. I'm not terribly concerned with whether the capabilities I possess actually constitute "free will". It's mostly a non-issue since even if my actions were completely deterministic (which they likely are) there's really no chance anyone could ever make accurate predictions for any significant amount of time into the future. Especially since those predictions themselves would provide feedback into my system which could invalidate those predictions. Anything that's not self-fulfilling is likely not to be true (and this is why self-fulfilling prophecies and predictions work so well).
It was my choice.
Yes, but your choices are governed by the motions and behaviors of the molecules in your brain. Those motions and behaviors will strictly follow the laws of the universe. They can do nothing else. I have no problem with calling those choices free will, since they're mostly free of the choices that others try to make for you. They aren't free of causality, though.
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
I like to think I have free will. I'm pretty sure I do. I chose to be an atheist, I chose to be a furry and Bi-sexual. I don't think there could've been anything lined up for that to happen. It was my choice.
You didn't wake up one morning and decide "Hey I'm gonna be atheist, bi-sexual, and a furry from now on" without provocation. There's a chain of events leading up to every one of those.
I like to think I have free will. I'm pretty sure I do. I chose to be an atheist, I chose to be a furry and Bi-sexual. I don't think there could've been anything lined up for that to happen. It was my choice.
You didn't wake up one morning and decide "Hey I'm gonna be atheist, bi-sexual, and a furry from now on" without provocation. There's a chain of events leading up to every one of those.
Well of course. It was a course of self-realisation leading to my final decision. But every action that lead up to it could've gone either way because of my decisions.
Quote from Yourself »
It was my choice.
Yes, but your choices are governed by the motions and behaviors of the molecules in your brain. Those motions and behaviors will strictly follow the laws of the universe. They can do nothing else. I have no problem with calling those choices free will, since they're mostly free of the choices that others try to make for you. They aren't free of causality, though.
Are you one of those Star-ology guys. Cause the "Laws of the Universe" are things like Einstiens Laws of relativity, and they don't in any way corelate to how my mind thinks.
The problem of course is that if free will doesn't exist (or rather, since the question is irrelevant, if public perception shifts to the view that there is no free will) then why would we lock people up in prison?
Hmm, no, I'm leaving something out/doing this wrong. But what I'm trying to say is, the assumption that free will exists is essential to our functioning as a society, in its current form anyway. I have no idea how one would work on the assumption that everything is predetermined. For one thing, people would probably stop trying to do things "oh, I'm not -meant- to be a basketball player, or an actor, or whatever."
If the masses believe in predetermination, they would lose hope/dreams/goals/aspiration, is I suppose what I'm trying to say. It is necessary.
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Quote from Cliff Racer »
If a creeper walked in to my house, I'd either be cowering in a corner or unzipping my trousers.
Are you one of those Star-ology guys. Cause the "Laws of the Universe" are things like Einstiens Laws of relativity, and they don't in any way corelate to how my mind thinks.
Yes they do. Everything that happens in your brain is just physics. Your brain isn't magic.
Actually it's Bio-chemistry, but close enough.
Note this: We barely understand how the brain works. One can't assume it's works like a clock, it's unique among other animals.
Are you one of those Star-ology guys. Cause the "Laws of the Universe" are things like Einstiens Laws of relativity, and they don't in any way corelate to how my mind thinks.
No, the laws of the universe are things like the laws of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics which govern how atoms can bond to one another and how sets of bonded atoms (i.e. molecules) can interact with other sets of bonded atoms. I don't know how you managed to think this had anything to do with stars.
Actually it's Bio-chemistry, but close enough.
Bio-chemistry is just applied physics.
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Are you one of those Star-ology guys. Cause the "Laws of the Universe" are things like Einstiens Laws of relativity, and they don't in any way corelate to how my mind thinks.
No, the laws of the universe are things like the laws of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics which govern how atoms can bond to one another and how sets of bonded atoms (i.e. molecules) can interact with other sets of bonded atoms. I don't know how you managed to think this had anything to do with stars.
Actually it's Bio-chemistry, but close enough.
Bio-chemistry is just applied physics.
Well thoughts don't corelate to atom interactions in the sense where it's runs like cogs.
Also, this idea that everything relates to the universe is stupid, as the universe itself doesn't run as smoothly as you think. Recent studies show that some parts of the universe follow Newtons rules where as some don't.
The universe is just as free willed as us you might say.
From this point forth, I refuse to argue with anyone that honestly believes that humans do not have free will. Maybe the concept, while startlingly obvious to me, just isn't that simple to other people? Maybe people are complicating it to the point where it is no longer seen as the simple concept it should be?
*sigh*
Maybe I'll just use my free will to go to another thread now, where things don't disappoint me as much.
Yes, all decisions are the byproduct of countless earlier factors. However, there are effectively infinite of these, because everything affects you in some way, so free will can be said to exist in the sense that we can’t fully predict what anyone will do, ever.
Aww hell..... this again. *prepare for a dose of psychology*
- Free will is what we use to describe our ability to do what the brain tells up to do (go to work, eat, sleep, play)
BUT what our brain tells us to do is based off of past experiences. If your parents had brought you up to hate creativity, you would not play minecraft and would not be reading this. If your parents encouraged creativity, and minecraft was appealing to you, then you signed up for the forums and are currently reading this.
- Free will is relative to our perception of our lives, we know from past experiences that: dying = bad, fire = hot, things like that. Those experiences wire our brain so that we don't do those things. 'Free will" is simply what we could do, not what we will do. You have the ability to shoot, rape, pillage, and do whatever the hell you want, but most people don't. No matter the situation you are free to do what you want, but you are also fearful of the consequences.
- It is impossible to predict someones actions, because if they knew what was going to happen, they would take steps to change it. (would you walk into a building knowing that you were going to die in there?). This also explains why we cant remember the future (its a big long science article, Google it) If we know what will happen, we will take steps to change it. (deja-vu might just be a brief memory of the future).
*If you didn't get that: Free will is limited to what consequences you are willing to face (death, jail, divorce, ext.)"
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After 10:30 PST, my IQ drops to around that of a shovel, please disregard anything I say after aforementioned time, it will likely not make any sense, and is best ignored.
Nothing is set in stone. Just because it is likely that it will happen does not mean it will happen. I could do something that is supposed to happen, or I can change the chain with a snap of my fingers. There would be ultimately no reason for life without free will.
You will go to sleep tonight.
"Yeah right!" - says Spencerjj2 - "now I'll stay up all night just to prove these determinists wrong!"
Never-mind that the existence of these determinists, the existence of minecraft forum, your notice of their thread, your intuitive conviction of free will and your genetic predispositions to rebelliousness (along with innumerable other antecedents) all brought about that decision - collectively. You were just another domino in the causal chain.
Well, some of Hierotheos Vlachos work is here
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b23.en.the_p ... ion.00.htm
It's not too hard to read I think,
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b23.en.the_p ... 02.htm#s5b
This is one place where he states it quite unambiguously. I'm not certain which Father he is quoting. It may be St. Gregory Palamas.
Indeed you could, but is that really a freedom or were those specific actions the result of reading this topic and a set of deterministic chemical reactions playing out to produce that list of potential actions? One clear limit is that you're only capable of doing things that you can think of. You are not free to do those things that you can't think of. Naturally this is obvious, but I merely bring it up to point out that any kind of free will you might think of isn't completely free.
Absolute free will does not exist in an ordinary context. But what would you do with it if you had it? The lack of total self-determination does not make one un-free. The idea that we don't have absolute free will is often associated with an attempt to circumscribe or determine human behavior through some manner of heuristic. Whether or not we have ultimate free will or not, these attempts have all failed miserably. Within certain limited contexts patterns emerge, but 'the heart has reasons the reason knows not of', as the poet says.
I don't know, I don't have the freedom to make that assessment. Based on the idea of the Abrahamic God, if I had that kind of freedom I'd probably make a universe and then make some pretty arbitrary and contradictory decisions afterwards.
So would attempts to predict the outcome of any complicated system. I'm not terribly concerned with whether the capabilities I possess actually constitute "free will". It's mostly a non-issue since even if my actions were completely deterministic (which they likely are) there's really no chance anyone could ever make accurate predictions for any significant amount of time into the future. Especially since those predictions themselves would provide feedback into my system which could invalidate those predictions. Anything that's not self-fulfilling is likely not to be true (and this is why self-fulfilling prophecies and predictions work so well).
Yes, but your choices are governed by the motions and behaviors of the molecules in your brain. Those motions and behaviors will strictly follow the laws of the universe. They can do nothing else. I have no problem with calling those choices free will, since they're mostly free of the choices that others try to make for you. They aren't free of causality, though.
You didn't wake up one morning and decide "Hey I'm gonna be atheist, bi-sexual, and a furry from now on" without provocation. There's a chain of events leading up to every one of those.
Gimme
Well of course. It was a course of self-realisation leading to my final decision. But every action that lead up to it could've gone either way because of my decisions.
Are you one of those Star-ology guys. Cause the "Laws of the Universe" are things like Einstiens Laws of relativity, and they don't in any way corelate to how my mind thinks.
Hmm, no, I'm leaving something out/doing this wrong. But what I'm trying to say is, the assumption that free will exists is essential to our functioning as a society, in its current form anyway. I have no idea how one would work on the assumption that everything is predetermined. For one thing, people would probably stop trying to do things "oh, I'm not -meant- to be a basketball player, or an actor, or whatever."
If the masses believe in predetermination, they would lose hope/dreams/goals/aspiration, is I suppose what I'm trying to say. It is necessary.
Actually it's Bio-chemistry, but close enough.
Note this: We barely understand how the brain works. One can't assume it's works like a clock, it's unique among other animals.
No, the laws of the universe are things like the laws of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics which govern how atoms can bond to one another and how sets of bonded atoms (i.e. molecules) can interact with other sets of bonded atoms. I don't know how you managed to think this had anything to do with stars.
Bio-chemistry is just applied physics.
*high five*
Well thoughts don't corelate to atom interactions in the sense where it's runs like cogs.
Also, this idea that everything relates to the universe is stupid, as the universe itself doesn't run as smoothly as you think. Recent studies show that some parts of the universe follow Newtons rules where as some don't.
The universe is just as free willed as us you might say.
*sigh*
Maybe I'll just use my free will to go to another thread now, where things don't disappoint me as much.
- Free will is what we use to describe our ability to do what the brain tells up to do (go to work, eat, sleep, play)
BUT what our brain tells us to do is based off of past experiences. If your parents had brought you up to hate creativity, you would not play minecraft and would not be reading this. If your parents encouraged creativity, and minecraft was appealing to you, then you signed up for the forums and are currently reading this.
- Free will is relative to our perception of our lives, we know from past experiences that: dying = bad, fire = hot, things like that. Those experiences wire our brain so that we don't do those things. 'Free will" is simply what we could do, not what we will do. You have the ability to shoot, rape, pillage, and do whatever the hell you want, but most people don't. No matter the situation you are free to do what you want, but you are also fearful of the consequences.
- It is impossible to predict someones actions, because if they knew what was going to happen, they would take steps to change it. (would you walk into a building knowing that you were going to die in there?). This also explains why we cant remember the future (its a big long science article, Google it) If we know what will happen, we will take steps to change it. (deja-vu might just be a brief memory of the future).
*If you didn't get that: Free will is limited to what consequences you are willing to face (death, jail, divorce, ext.)"
You will go to sleep tonight.
"Yeah right!" - says Spencerjj2 - "now I'll stay up all night just to prove these determinists wrong!"
Never-mind that the existence of these determinists, the existence of minecraft forum, your notice of their thread, your intuitive conviction of free will and your genetic predispositions to rebelliousness (along with innumerable other antecedents) all brought about that decision - collectively. You were just another domino in the causal chain.
Its a hard question.
I am here for you, Don't be afraid to send me a message.