There should be more agnostics... who are we to claim we know something unknowable? I don't understand how people can fight and even go to war over religion. That's like looking at a box and claiming you know what's inside, and then fighting with someone else who thinks it's exactly the same thing inside, except it's wearing a hat. In the end... it doesn't matter if there's anything in that box or not.
Haha, this analogy gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "think outside the box" :tongue.gif:
Sure it matters if there is somthing inside that box. I sure do wish that there was a god, that there was a heaven. I would be much happier if I knew that there was one, but I can't bring myself to blindly believe in something with no evidence.
Sure it matters if there is somthing inside that box. I sure do wish that there was a god, that there was a heaven. I would be much happier if I knew that there was one, but I can't bring myself to blindly believe in something with no evidence.
I was born and raised christian, always beleived in god and heaven. There is some proof. Miracles happen everyday. One happened in my church. I cant find the story, but it did happen at my church. Was in the news.
Sure it matters if there is somthing inside that box. I sure do wish that there was a god, that there was a heaven. I would be much happier if I knew that there was one, but I can't bring myself to blindly believe in something with no evidence.
I disagree. Sine you can't open the box and know what's inside... why would you bother trying to find out what's inside?
If there really is life after death... you'll know when you're dead. Maybe all your beliefs that you've made up beforehand are right... but what if you're deadwrong? It's a pretty big risk to take to believe something you can't know if it affects your whole life in such a big way.
If there really is life after death, I'll deal with it then. But I'd rather assume there's no life after death and make the best of this life right here. Why would anybody risk believing something, and living their entire life by that law, if it's all just based on assumptions? If people really want to make assumptions that badly, they should assume you only have one life. Otherise, what a waste it would be to find out you were wrong all along!
Sure it matters if there is somthing inside that box. I sure do wish that there was a god, that there was a heaven. I would be much happier if I knew that there was one, but I can't bring myself to blindly believe in something with no evidence.
I've occasionally thought about what it would entail if there were a heaven, and I must say, I've yet to figure out how it would be a pleasant thing. I don't think heaven is something that is meant to make people feel happy, I think it's something that's there to give the universe a sense of justice where none is apparent.
Quote from RiverC »
Well, Nietzsche, other than having a name that has five consonants mashed together, wasn't a garden-variety Atheist IMO, but a person who knew of God and declared him dead; and then declared that men would make themselves gods and talked about how they would do it. Basically, he didn't deny God or Christianity at all, he showed the way, if any, men would supercede both or die trying. Whether it was that his ideas caught on because the right people read them, or the right people agreed with them because he could 'see' the Spiritus Mundi, and prophesy from what he saw, I don't know.
Supercede is a good word. A more careful interpretation would acknowledge that he wants mankind to surpass religion (and metaphysics as a whole), yet amidst all the surpassing, take a retrograde step back. He likes to use the ladder metaphor, and in this case, he uses it to warn against standing upon the top rung of one. Overcome metaphysics, then step back and realize how important it is. Don't be caught in the net cast upon you on birth, but don't fall over the precipice and abandon that one thing that defines you as human.
Sure it matters if there is somthing inside that box. I sure do wish that there was a god, that there was a heaven. I would be much happier if I knew that there was one, but I can't bring myself to blindly believe in something with no evidence.
Then you have to go and look for the evidence. That is what it means 'to be true to one's self.' We even say, 'The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force' meaning you have to come and get it if you really want it. If you expect a committed unbeliever like say, Dawkins, to provide that evidence, you're not looking! It's not enough to look at Westboro baptist and shrug off all unbelievers, just like I'm sure many here did not realize Hitchens was an angry drunk and decide that disbelief was all about vicious insobriety.
I was born and raised christian, always beleived in god and heaven. There is some proof. Miracles happen everyday. One happened in my church. I cant find the story, but it did happen at my church. Was in the news.
A lot of people were "born and raised" to believe in santa. And there was even "proof" when the cookies and milk were gone the next morning.
I'm not trying to be rude, I think everybody should believe whatever they want... it's their right as a human to do so. The point I'm trying to make is that when you were born and raised to believe things... you see what you want to believe.
When I saw that the cookies and milk were gone i knew for sure it was santa! But if you think about it, there are about a million more plausible explanations for the missing foods and beverage. A fox could have eaten it... I could have eaten it in my sleep... aliens could have stolen it...
Everybody believes what they want to believe. And I'm even fine with that as long as it stays at that. But when we talk about truth and evidence it's a whole 'nother story.
There should be more agnostics... who are we to claim we know something unknowable?
Who are we to claim we know something is unknowable?
This is a problem I have with some so-called agnostics. Asserting that something is unknowable is a very un-agnostic position to take.
The traditional approach goes even further, I think, and asserts that some things are unexpressible even though they may not be unknowable, just as complete nonsense describes a kind of thing which is expressible but unknowable.
If anybody says I don't have proof that some sort of supernatural force exists, they're wrong. You can choose not to believe them, or believe them. Here they are:
-My uncle, while dieing with cancer, had an ANGEL SHAPED WATER STAIN OVER HIS BED, he died a few days later.
-I saw a picture of a church in Mexico that a couple that my family knew had, it had blue orbs in it. The blue orbs were throughout the church, with more of them around the Crucifix. Which is the cross that Jesus died on, or at least the symbol, for Atheists or people who don't know/forgot. You probably won't believe me on this, but the more I looked at the picture, THE MORE ORBS/SOULS I SAW. It was amazing.
-My Grandpa, dieing in his bed, had light on the wall where no light could be. I wasn't there, but my dad and his relatives saw it and took pictures of it. My dad claims it was emerging from the wall.
There. Don't believe me, I'll find an article of that stain that was in a newspaper. You could say coincidence, go ahead. It shows me with all of those, which I have photo-graphic evidence of, that there's SOMETHING out there. SOMETHING. It's not much, but enough for me to keep believing, no matter how boring church itself is.
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"Tell me this, when in the world did virtual posts gain the ability to crap?" -Monork2 on ROBLOX.com
"If you lived in primeval times, for instance," Watanabe said, "it would be good to be very sensitized to tigers."
And that basically sums up why we see faces, images, and structures everywhere.
No, it's because part of our brain is dedicated to processing faces, which is an entirely different process inside our noggins than identifying ordinary shapes. This is so we can understand and communicate with other human beings.
-My uncle, while dieing with cancer, had an ANGEL SHAPED WATER STAIN OVER HIS BED, he died a few days later.
I'd be more impressed if it was a water shaped angel stain. Other than that, this is just confirmation bias. It's a water stain, it could have looked like anything or nothing. The human brain is very good at pattern recognition, it's what it does. Haven't you ever seen people look at clouds and say "they look like X". It's exactly that capability in action.
I saw a picture of a church in Mexico that a couple that my family knew had, it had blue orbs in it. The blue orbs were throughout the church, with more of them around the Crucifix. Which is the cross that Jesus died on, or at least the symbol, for Atheists or people who don't know/forgot. You probably won't believe me on this, but the more I looked at the picture, THE MORE ORBS/SOULS I SAW. It was amazing.
So basically you had delusions or hallucinations or your memory sucks. Again it can be explained by confirmation bias. If you noticed additional orbs at one point that you hadn't noticed previously and you believe that your attention to detail is infallible and that the only explanation is that the picture is magic, then it wouldn't be surprising that each time you come back to it you think you're seeing more. Let us know when you can actually produce evidence that doesn't rely entirely on your own perception.
It shows me with all of those, which I have photo-graphic evidence of
Which you haven't provided.
It's not much, but enough for me to keep believing
By ignoring all the possible natural explanations that could exist. Any time something happens that you can't personally explain, you've already decided that it's supernatural force. Of course you're going to see a lot of things that are supernatural, you already think they're there.
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
-My uncle, while dieing with cancer, had an ANGEL SHAPED WATER STAIN OVER HIS BED, he died a few days later.
I'd be more impressed if it was a water shaped angel stain. Other than that, this is just confirmation bias. It's a water stain, it could have looked like anything or nothing. The human brain is very good at pattern recognition, it's what it does. Haven't you ever seen people look at clouds and say "they look like X". It's exactly that capability in action.
I saw a picture of a church in Mexico that a couple that my family knew had, it had blue orbs in it. The blue orbs were throughout the church, with more of them around the Crucifix. Which is the cross that Jesus died on, or at least the symbol, for Atheists or people who don't know/forgot. You probably won't believe me on this, but the more I looked at the picture, THE MORE ORBS/SOULS I SAW. It was amazing.
So basically you had delusions or hallucinations or your memory sucks. Again it can be explained by confirmation bias. If you noticed additional orbs at one point that you hadn't noticed previously and you believe that your attention to detail is infallible and that the only explanation is that the picture is magic, then it wouldn't be surprising that each time you come back to it you think you're seeing more. Let us know when you can actually produce evidence that doesn't rely entirely on your own perception.
It shows me with all of those, which I have photo-graphic evidence of
Which you haven't provided.
It's not much, but enough for me to keep believing
By ignoring all the possible natural explanations that could exist. Any time something happens that you can't personally explain, you've already decided that it's supernatural force. Of course you're going to see a lot of things that are supernatural, you already think they're there.
I wasn't hallucinating. I don't use drugs or anything. It was a picture.
I never see things supernatural. I'd LOVE to see them, but I don't. These are the only 3 that stand out in my memory.
I could provide evidence of them, and I'd LOVE to provide it. But my dad might be touchy on showing photos online, and he might even ban me from using computers if he finds out I'm in a religious debate. And he's the only person I could get the photos from. :/
And that water stain was angel shaped. It was symmetrical.
I also love how you didn't comment on the light coming out of the wall.
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"Tell me this, when in the world did virtual posts gain the ability to crap?" -Monork2 on ROBLOX.com
Enlightenment comes when you realize he is both and neither.
What is the sound of no cat dying?
ommmmmmm
I reject your reality and substitute my own, A.K.A. the one without all the fancy laws and quantum mechanos and phys. ed. relativision or whatever you whippersnappers call it nowadays....
In all seriousness, debating religion is nearly pointless. Atheists, you will not change the opinion of Theists. Theists, you will not change the opinion of Atheists. People's beliefs are set in stone, and it takes a lot of TNT to break stone. Except for the occasional conversion, no one changes what they believe in just because of some argument.
Atheists, you will not change the opinion of Theists.
If that were true, theists would never deconvert.
There are theists that deconvert.
Therefore, by modus tollens, your position is not true.
Except for the occasional conversion, no one changes what they believe in just because of some argument.
Of course not, but that's an incredibly naive way of viewing things. I don't think anyone here just expects someone to flip to a completely different perspective right in the middle of an argument and the arguments aren't trying to get people to do that, so stop trying to tell people that this won't work.
The occasional conversions aren't just random events, there's a trigger. There's something small and minor that starts the process.
Thanks for playing, though.
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Haha, this analogy gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "think outside the box" :tongue.gif:
I was born and raised christian, always beleived in god and heaven. There is some proof. Miracles happen everyday. One happened in my church. I cant find the story, but it did happen at my church. Was in the news.
I disagree. Sine you can't open the box and know what's inside... why would you bother trying to find out what's inside?
If there really is life after death... you'll know when you're dead. Maybe all your beliefs that you've made up beforehand are right... but what if you're deadwrong? It's a pretty big risk to take to believe something you can't know if it affects your whole life in such a big way.
If there really is life after death, I'll deal with it then. But I'd rather assume there's no life after death and make the best of this life right here. Why would anybody risk believing something, and living their entire life by that law, if it's all just based on assumptions? If people really want to make assumptions that badly, they should assume you only have one life. Otherise, what a waste it would be to find out you were wrong all along!
I've occasionally thought about what it would entail if there were a heaven, and I must say, I've yet to figure out how it would be a pleasant thing. I don't think heaven is something that is meant to make people feel happy, I think it's something that's there to give the universe a sense of justice where none is apparent.
Supercede is a good word. A more careful interpretation would acknowledge that he wants mankind to surpass religion (and metaphysics as a whole), yet amidst all the surpassing, take a retrograde step back. He likes to use the ladder metaphor, and in this case, he uses it to warn against standing upon the top rung of one. Overcome metaphysics, then step back and realize how important it is. Don't be caught in the net cast upon you on birth, but don't fall over the precipice and abandon that one thing that defines you as human.
Then you have to go and look for the evidence. That is what it means 'to be true to one's self.' We even say, 'The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force' meaning you have to come and get it if you really want it. If you expect a committed unbeliever like say, Dawkins, to provide that evidence, you're not looking! It's not enough to look at Westboro baptist and shrug off all unbelievers, just like I'm sure many here did not realize Hitchens was an angry drunk and decide that disbelief was all about vicious insobriety.
A lot of people were "born and raised" to believe in santa. And there was even "proof" when the cookies and milk were gone the next morning.
I'm not trying to be rude, I think everybody should believe whatever they want... it's their right as a human to do so. The point I'm trying to make is that when you were born and raised to believe things... you see what you want to believe.
When I saw that the cookies and milk were gone i knew for sure it was santa! But if you think about it, there are about a million more plausible explanations for the missing foods and beverage. A fox could have eaten it... I could have eaten it in my sleep... aliens could have stolen it...
Everybody believes what they want to believe. And I'm even fine with that as long as it stays at that. But when we talk about truth and evidence it's a whole 'nother story.
The traditional approach goes even further, I think, and asserts that some things are unexpressible even though they may not be unknowable, just as complete nonsense describes a kind of thing which is expressible but unknowable.
-My uncle, while dieing with cancer, had an ANGEL SHAPED WATER STAIN OVER HIS BED, he died a few days later.
-I saw a picture of a church in Mexico that a couple that my family knew had, it had blue orbs in it. The blue orbs were throughout the church, with more of them around the Crucifix. Which is the cross that Jesus died on, or at least the symbol, for Atheists or people who don't know/forgot. You probably won't believe me on this, but the more I looked at the picture, THE MORE ORBS/SOULS I SAW. It was amazing.
-My Grandpa, dieing in his bed, had light on the wall where no light could be. I wasn't there, but my dad and his relatives saw it and took pictures of it. My dad claims it was emerging from the wall.
There. Don't believe me, I'll find an article of that stain that was in a newspaper. You could say coincidence, go ahead. It shows me with all of those, which I have photo-graphic evidence of, that there's SOMETHING out there. SOMETHING. It's not much, but enough for me to keep believing, no matter how boring church itself is.
Raise my dragons please!!
"If you lived in primeval times, for instance," Watanabe said, "it would be good to be very sensitized to tigers."
And that basically sums up why we see faces, images, and structures everywhere.
No, it's because part of our brain is dedicated to processing faces, which is an entirely different process inside our noggins than identifying ordinary shapes. This is so we can understand and communicate with other human beings.
I'd be more impressed if it was a water shaped angel stain. Other than that, this is just confirmation bias. It's a water stain, it could have looked like anything or nothing. The human brain is very good at pattern recognition, it's what it does. Haven't you ever seen people look at clouds and say "they look like X". It's exactly that capability in action.
So basically you had delusions or hallucinations or your memory sucks. Again it can be explained by confirmation bias. If you noticed additional orbs at one point that you hadn't noticed previously and you believe that your attention to detail is infallible and that the only explanation is that the picture is magic, then it wouldn't be surprising that each time you come back to it you think you're seeing more. Let us know when you can actually produce evidence that doesn't rely entirely on your own perception.
Which you haven't provided.
By ignoring all the possible natural explanations that could exist. Any time something happens that you can't personally explain, you've already decided that it's supernatural force. Of course you're going to see a lot of things that are supernatural, you already think they're there.
I wasn't hallucinating. I don't use drugs or anything. It was a picture.
I never see things supernatural. I'd LOVE to see them, but I don't. These are the only 3 that stand out in my memory.
I could provide evidence of them, and I'd LOVE to provide it. But my dad might be touchy on showing photos online, and he might even ban me from using computers if he finds out I'm in a religious debate. And he's the only person I could get the photos from. :/
And that water stain was angel shaped. It was symmetrical.
I also love how you didn't comment on the light coming out of the wall.
Raise my dragons please!!
He's alive. He saved himself by chewing through the wiring on the Geiger counter.
You heard that, green and red.
The Box is empty, the cat is risen!
(sorry, had to.)
mmmmmman I love some BAR B QUE!
I reject your reality and substitute my own, A.K.A. the one without all the fancy laws and quantum mechanos and phys. ed. relativision or whatever you whippersnappers call it nowadays....
You heard that, green and red.
If that were true, theists would never deconvert.
There are theists that deconvert.
Therefore, by modus tollens, your position is not true.
Of course not, but that's an incredibly naive way of viewing things. I don't think anyone here just expects someone to flip to a completely different perspective right in the middle of an argument and the arguments aren't trying to get people to do that, so stop trying to tell people that this won't work.
The occasional conversions aren't just random events, there's a trigger. There's something small and minor that starts the process.
Thanks for playing, though.