Thanks for the tips, I'll be sure to look into those resources...probably tomorrow, yeah, I hope to get "everything" done by tomorrow. And after that I might look into Slick2D, create some sort of side scrolling engine (with armour overlaps and etc.).
As soon as I read the line "MMO" or even "MULTIPLAYER" on that game idea I was dumbstruck, you're really learning Java to try and make a game idea?
I think people are just not ready for the sheer amount of code, planning, etc that even a simple Pong game takes, much less a multiplayer realtime game.
Not trying to put you down or anything but if you're gonna pick one of your games to try and code, pick the easiest one. There are people that can make such a game out there but: A, it will take them a LONG time. B, If they can manage it, it means they learned to be a programmer to be a programmer.
There's a reason game designers get paid to write documentation 8+ hours a day, its because it is THAT big a job. Programming is absurdly slow, I end up writing a couple pages of logic code in a day if I'm lucky, not all code is created equally either. Of course, that's easy to quantify, just look at math. A complex mathematical formula may only be 7 or 8 characters of writing with some lines between them, and it could have taken years to invent that tiny formula, compare that to your average much longer simple division problem.
As soon as I read the line "MMO" or even "MULTIPLAYER" on that game idea I was dumbstruck, you're really learning Java to try and make a game idea?
Well, not exactly, I'd like to learn Java to create some kind of game, I don't exactly know which one yet or if I'd pick one from the pile, it's more as a side project and something to help me learn, if I ever get it started. I'd also like to create useful programs in Java (I don't exactly know which ones right now, lol) But Multiplayer in any game Idea that I have right now, is somewhat of..well...after I'm done everything else (more or less)
I think people are just not ready for the sheer amount of code, planning, etc that even a simple Pong game takes, much less a multiplayer realtime game.
You probably are right, and I am probably one of those people, I mean, I've gone through what some classes might need and how it works (I've planned a little bit for some stuff), but I'm still learning, so I've probably made mistakes that I'll have to fix later.
Not trying to put you down or anything but if you're gonna pick one of your games to try and code, pick the easiest one. There are people that can make such a game out there but: A, it will take them a LONG time. B, If they can manage it, it means they learned to be a programmer to be a programmer.
Oh, and don't worry, I'm gonna pick something pretty easy (Something 2D, Simple), but ambitious, if I'd try to code it. I also understand that there are people who can do that and I know that for most games, it takes a while before you even hear of it, after it has been started and even after that, it takes a while for it to be officially released (there are some big games that are the exception). And again, I'd like to learn to be a programmer, but I'd like to learn the skills to then (sort of) focus on game development.
There's a reason game designers get paid to write documentation 8+ hours a day, its because it is THAT big a job. Programming is absurdly slow, I end up writing a couple pages of logic code in a day if I'm lucky, not all code is created equally either. Of course, that's easy to quantify, just look at math. A complex mathematical formula may only be 7 or 8 characters of writing with some lines between them, and it could have taken years to invent that tiny formula, compare that to your average much longer simple division problem.
I totally understand where you are comming from, I know that I am not really a game designer, that I'm not paid to do so, that it is not my job, but it is something I like to do, I guess you can say a hobby of mine, and I'll continue it t'ill I don't want to anymore.
I understand that programming is absurdly slow, because of all the planning, the "locks" and etc. And I also know about the math thing, sure there are always some exceptions, but it has still taken a long time to figure out (in general), even with all their planning behind it and what not. I know it will take long to learn, and maybe in most cases even longer to create, but I know I am willing to put that investment in there. I might not understand completely how long it may take, but I am ready and willing to do so.
TL ; DR
In my mind, Multiplayer is my "End Game" when creating a game
MMOs can't happen, you need too much investments (depending on the type of game)
I completly understand where you're comming from.
Well, not exactly, I'd like to learn Java to create some kind of game, I don't exactly know which one yet or if I'd pick one from the pile, it's more as a side project and something to help me learn, if I ever get it started. I'd also like to create useful programs in Java (I don't exactly know which ones right now, lol) But Multiplayer in any game Idea that I have right now, is somewhat of..well...after I'm done everything else (more or less)
Just think of multiplayer-networking and sockets and such, as a math discipline. You wouldn't go learn Calculus and Trig at the same time would you? I suppose you could but it'd take up a lot of your time and be something you have to devote your thoughts to on both. In the same train of thought, although networking has pretty much nothing to do with other code disciplines, the point is about time.
My advice? Pick something simple, make it work. When I started coding I was really young and naive just like everyone else. They tell you to make Pong or something, but you don't want to make it because it sounds boring. The thing is, they tell you for a reason, they tell you because every other programmer out there, including themselves, wanted to do the same thing as you, and start ahead. People like me tend to think, "Hey I'll just make a little hack and slash RPG, it's almost as simple as Pong." I honestly even REALLY recommend again this for one real reason: architecture.
The thing is creating an RPG as opposed to Pong isn't necessarily hard, the important part is that the underlying internals of the game are pretty much the same in your RPG as they are in Pong. If you're going to learn to take apart and put a car back together should you start with a junker that pulls apart into pieces or should you start with a corvette? People say to start with Pong simply because Pong is a -very easy- game to make and thus it lets you focus on all the complex underlying stuff without worrying too much about making the actual game.
You probably are right, and I am probably one of those people, I mean, I've gone through what some classes might need and how it works (I've planned a little bit for some stuff), but I'm still learning, so I've probably made mistakes that I'll have to fix later.
Honestly everyone thinks that "hey I'm not THAT guy, I know that this is going to be hard, I'll fight and fight and overcome it!" Problem is, it's even harder than that. People just can't comprehend how much code even Pong takes, heck doing it in C++ takes hundreds if not thousands of lines of code even if you use libraries, there's just so much to actually write. People can't understand that every little thing you do in a game is code. Okay well I need to create my ball object and load the sprite and make the bouncing sound and.. wait I better go write an image loader. Okay now I need an image class, darn! Dang now I need a library to load ten different image formats! Really, it's just almost incomprehensible to most people until you actually do it.
Now, don't let me scare you, with libraries and languages like Java the code is significantly reduced of course, but the fact is that it's like trying to build a car from scratch. A car sounds pretty easy but three weeks later you'll be in your garage trying to design and cut a muffler and be going "this takes too damn long!"
Oh, and don't worry, I'm gonna pick something pretty easy (Something 2D, Simple), but ambitious, if I'd try to code it. I also understand that there are people who can do that and I know that for most games, it takes a while before you even hear of it, after it has been started and even after that, it takes a while for it to be officially released (there are some big games that are the exception). And again, I'd like to learn to be a programmer, but I'd like to learn the skills to then (sort of) focus on game development.
Here's where things start to deviate, what is it you want to do? Do you want to be a programmer or do you just want to be a designer? Are you an organized person? Maybe you should find someone to help you code this thing, or a small team(be wary of online folks though, they're flaky). Use whatever tools you can get ahold of that makes your job the easiest. I always laugh when people downplay things like game makers and such because you can end up making some very -fun- games with those tools, that's what they are, tools.
I totally understand where you are comming from, I know that I am not really a game designer, that I'm not paid to do so, that it is not my job, but it is something I like to do, I guess you can say a hobby of mine, and I'll continue it t'ill I don't want to anymore.
Well, like I said above, what will be fun to you? Do you MIND learning coding? If not then you'll probably have to devote a lot of time to it.
I understand that programming is absurdly slow, because of all the planning, the "locks" and etc. And I also know about the math thing, sure there are always some exceptions, but it has still taken a long time to figure out (in general), even with all their planning behind it and what not. I know it will take long to learn, and maybe in most cases even longer to create, but I know I am willing to put that investment in there. I might not understand completely how long it may take, but I am ready and willing to do so.
Honestly most people are full of crap about the math required for games. Games use barely any math whatsoever, if you know basic arithmetic you're fine for game development, the only real exception to that is graphics. Rendering uses a lot of math, a lot of -complicated- math, why? Because it's geometry, you're trying to simulate shapes and models and pixel modification on a screen every few milliseconds, the math is all a way to help the computer translate what you want into visuals. There are a lot of games you can make that require little-no real math besides adding, subtracting, dividing, multiplying, etc.
Code -is- slow though, really slow. It's slow enough that I really couldn't ever explain it to another person without them doing the same thing. You just can't really visualize how "slow" it is, how you can spend hours staring at a screen and only make a few real lines of changes and suddenly, ding ding ding, it's 4 hours later and time to head home/to bed.
TL ; DR
In my mind, Multiplayer is my "End Game" when creating a game
MMOs can't happen, you need too much investments (depending on the type of game)
I completly understand where you're comming from.
Actually, the A-Level Maths course that I'm currently doing has a chapter on Maths and a chapter on Trig, and some trig problems require calculus and some calculus problems require trig... surprising right?
I made a note about that after I put it, a better comparison would be like, "you wouldn't go learn all of college math at once would you?"
Thing about Calculus vs Trig is that they're both math courses, math is a single problem thing. Learning coding is sort of all inclusive, you can't learn networking if you can't make a working game loop. You can't learn 3d graphics if the underlying engine code can't sustain it. You can't do it all at once, you have to learn it in bite sized chunks.
Just think of multiplayer-networking and sockets and such, as a math discipline. You wouldn't go learn Calculus and Trig at the same time would you? I suppose you could but it'd take up a lot of your time and be something you have to devote your thoughts to on both. In the same train of thought, although networking has pretty much nothing to do with other code disciplines, the point is about time.
Yeah...Networking....Um....Again, Not really what I'd focus on in the first couple of years that I'd program (I might go as far to say the first couple dozen, but you know, optimist). I'm not planning to learn any multiplayer networking code right now, I'm simply trying to learn to code some stuff in Java, using my "Java for Dummies" book, since that seemed like the easiest way to learn
My advice? Pick something simple, make it work. When I started coding I was really young and naive just like everyone else. They tell you to make Pong or something, but you don't want to make it because it sounds boring. The thing is, they tell you for a reason, they tell you because every other programmer out there, including themselves, wanted to do the same thing as you, and start ahead. People like me tend to think, "Hey I'll just make a little hack and slash RPG, it's almost as simple as Pong." I honestly even REALLY recommend again this for one real reason: architecture.
I never said I didn't want to make pong, I never said pong was boring, but I never really thought of making it, I guess I should start by something "that simple". It (probably) might help me out in the long run.
The thing is creating an RPG as opposed to Pong isn't necessarily hard, the important part is that the underlying internals of the game are pretty much the same in your RPG as they are in Pong. If you're going to learn to take apart and put a car back together should you start with a junker that pulls apart into pieces or should you start with a corvette? People say to start with Pong simply because Pong is a -very easy- game to make and thus it lets you focus on all the complex underlying stuff without worrying too much about making the actual game.
Now I understand why you are trying to tell me this (there is a difference between understanding what you say and why you say it). I wasn't really worried about how I intergrate most of the stuff that I planned out with words, since I knew I would have to start from scratch and work my way up, slowly but ...slowly, making the changes needed, but I guess we all had to start somewhere and I guess I might start with pong.
Honestly everyone thinks that "hey I'm not THAT guy, I know that this is going to be hard, I'll fight and fight and overcome it!" Problem is, it's even harder than that. People just can't comprehend how much code even Pong takes, heck doing it in C++ takes hundreds if not thousands of lines of code even if you use libraries, there's just so much to actually write. People can't understand that every little thing you do in a game is code. Okay well I need to create my ball object and load the sprite and make the bouncing sound and.. wait I better go write an image loader. Okay now I need an image class, darn! Dang now I need a library to load ten different image formats! Really, it's just almost incomprehensible to most people until you actually do it.
...Well I hope you're not reffering to me there, since I just egmitted to "being that guy". And your "People just don't understand" line, I understand, almost everytime I play a game, I try to imagine how hard it was to code and how this is all working, as with almost everything, of course, again, I'm just learning so my "educated guesses" are probably wrong and what not.
But I think what you forget to mention, if you're creating from scratch and are doing somewhat of the same kind of styled game, you will reuse most of your base code to do the other stuff, what you forget to mention is that some code is reusable , that (generally and sort of) once you create some code, you can reuse it for other projects that are of the similar variety, and you can refine it, which can then be added to your other projects (if needed, but will probably add changes to other code).
It will probably take thousands of line of code, sure a little % of it might be Copy and Pasting, but writting (code), no matter how experienced you are, takes a while.
Now, don't let me scare you, with libraries and languages like Java the code is significantly reduced of course, but the fact is that it's like trying to build a car from scratch. A car sounds pretty easy but three weeks later you'll be in your garage trying to design and cut a muffler and be going "this takes too damn long!"
You aren't scaring me, even though I'm still learning I'm still optomistic (and probably young and naive), but I guess that's what makes people persavere (and in the case of the less fortunate, not gifted with patience and all that other stuff, rage quit). I understand that it takes a while, when I start creating I'll, hopefully, find the reason why for myself (which is always better)
Here's where things start to deviate, what is it you want to do? Do you want to be a programmer or do you just want to be a designer? Are you an organized person? Maybe you should find someone to help you code this thing, or a small team (be wary of online folks though, they're flaky). Use whatever tools you can get ahold of that makes your job the easiest. I always laugh when people downplay things like game makers and such because you can end up making some very -fun- games with those tools, that's what they are, tools.
I've played games since I was very young (like most of us) and I've always wanted to create my own game. What you are saying right now, makes it seem like you haven't read more than 1 of my game ideas, I have many and even after that, I have many more that I haven't released. If the project is too hard for me, or will take very, very long with just 1 person, I'll "add someone to the team", but the fact is, the people that I know aren't exactly into coding...(the best I have is a friend who wants to do 3D modelling...).
I will use tools at my disposal, but for some stuff, I'd like to create it on my own, it might seem weird to you, it might not..but..well...yeah. (I'm not gonna use any type of game maker thingy)
Well, like I said above, what will be fun to you? Do you MIND learning coding? If not then you'll probably have to devote a lot of time to it.
I don't mind learning to code and I understand that it will take a lot longer than I originaly thought (It takes people a couple years to get "good" at a certain language, programming or not) and hey, if I fail, I'd love to work in the game industry in any way I can help, lol. (Gaming is my passion)
Honestly most people are full of crap about the math required for games. Games use barely any math whatsoever, if you know basic arithmetic you're fine for game development, the only real exception to that is graphics. Rendering uses a lot of math, a lot of -complicated- math, why? Because it's geometry, you're trying to simulate shapes and models and pixel modification on a screen every few milliseconds, the math is all a way to help the computer translate what you want into visuals. There are a lot of games you can make that require little-no real math besides adding, subtracting, dividing, multiplying, etc.
I kind of figured that out on my own actually, but I don't have any Idea how to do 3D rendering, I'm assuming your talking about 3D rendering, because 2D and tile based graphics don't exactly seem hard to me (in my head anyways, that may change sooner or later, feel free to correct me)
Code -is- slow though, really slow. It's slow enough that I really couldn't ever explain it to another person without them doing the same thing. You just can't really visualize how "slow" it is, how you can spend hours staring at a screen and only make a few real lines of changes and suddenly, ding ding ding, it's 4 hours later and time to head home/to bed.
Oh...I get that feeling a lot..well not with code, but..well...yeah....it probably won't come as a big surprise to me, but who knows
Just keep it simple is all I'm saying.
And keep it simple I shall (sort of, lol)...
-----------------
Talking to you I have learned some new information, that was fun, but I also have a slight feeling that all of this isn't generally directed towards me, but to other wanna-be-coders as well.
Yeah...Networking....Um....Again, Not really what I'd focus on in the first couple of years that I'd program (I might go as far to say the first couple dozen, but you know, optimist). I'm not planning to learn any multiplayer networking code right now, I'm simply trying to learn to code some stuff in Java, using my "Java for Dummies" book, since that seemed like the easiest way to learn
It wasn't really about networking in general just "the disciplines" of coding you can get into, the fact they all take an inordinate amount of time to learn and even longer to perfect.
I never said I didn't want to make pong, I never said pong was boring, but I never really thought of making it, I guess I should start by something "that simple". It (probably) might help me out in the long run.
No you never said it, but most people think it, and that's what I was directing my point at, people in general. I'll be honest, I find games like Tetris and Pac-man and stuff like that completely boring, retro classics or not. I'm just more of an adventure person or an action person, arcade-puzzles were never my thing. Very few people out there thing making Pong sounds fun even if you're a great coder, so I was just putting emphasis on the fact that you should make something that will help you learn, even if it isn't fun to make it.
Now I understand why you are trying to tell me this (there is a difference between understanding what you say and why you say it). I wasn't really worried about how I intergrate most of the stuff that I planned out with words, since I knew I would have to start from scratch and work my way up, slowly but ...slowly, making the changes needed, but I guess we all had to start somewhere and I guess I might start with pong.
Well, don't copy me just to copy me, make whatever you want, I just guarantee you that if you make a Pong game start to finish, polished with all the bells and whistles: menus, sound, buttons, score tracking, game over screen/simple AI, maybe a high-score system, you'll be completely astounded at how many hours you put in even if you make a conservative guess.
...Well I hope you're not reffering to me there, since I just egmitted to "being that guy". And your "People just don't understand" line, I understand, almost everytime I play a game, I try to imagine how hard it was to code and how this is all working, as with almost everything, of course, again, I'm just learning so my "educated guesses" are probably wrong and what not.
It may or may not apply to you, I'm only saying it for your own good, cause, I was exactly the same way. I always read it in books and stuff and was like, "I know what to expect!" but really it's like I said, if you actually get down and write it, it's never what you expect, even as a worst case scenario. It just takes an amount of time and focus I couldn't really pin down. Keep in mind I'm talking about a Pong game, I can play a game like MW3 and try and imagine how much code is there and even then, it's hard to imagine how much code even when you've done it a lot.
But I think what you forget to mention, if you're creating from scratch and are doing somewhat of the same kind of styled game, you will reuse most of your base code to do the other stuff, what you forget to mention is that some code is reusable , that (generally and sort of) once you create some code, you can reuse it for other projects that are of the similar variety, and you can refine it, which can then be added to your other projects (if needed, but will probably add changes to other code).
It's true and not true, I think a lot of people severely overplay how "reusable" code is. Sure something like an image loader is reusable, it always does the same thing, but a lot of other pieces of code just have very different requirements from project to project. Certainly all the game logic will have to be started from scratch.
It will probably take thousands of line of code, sure a little % of it might be Copy and Pasting, but writting (code), no matter how experienced you are, takes a while.
Designing is what takes forever, that and refactoring and bug fixing. Honestly even when I know what I need to write it takes forever to actually get it down, formatted, commented, test it, etc.
I've played games since I was very young (like most of us) and I've always wanted to create my own game. What you are saying right now, makes it seem like you haven't read more than 1 of my game ideas, I have many and even after that, I have many more that I haven't released. If the project is too hard for me, or will take very, very long with just 1 person, I'll "add someone to the team", but the fact is, the people that I know aren't exactly into coding...(the best I have is a friend who wants to do 3D modelling...).
I will use tools at my disposal, but for some stuff, I'd like to create it on my own, it might seem weird to you, it might not..but..well...yeah. (I'm not gonna use any type of game maker thingy)
That's usually one of the dead giveaways to me that someone is either young or inexperienced, or both. Not saying a lot of professional programmers don't think of game makers and things as "kiddy tools" but they're just idiots. I'm a firm believer in the idealogy that if you want to make games you should MAKE GAMES. Making games does not mean being a programmer, or an artist, or anything in particular. Making games means you want to contribute to making a game, that sets what your options are.
You're a designer, obviously, but that's why I asked, do you REALLY want to learn to program? Or are you just doing it because you feel like you -have to- because I can guarentee you unless you really like programming too you're gonna get sick of spending 90% of your time writing code and 10% of it figuring out design.
The other part I asked was if you're a team leader, a lot of game designers are not team leaders, they don't neccesarily have to be, they're just that, designers. If you are a team leader, then maybe looking for people to help you would be best, or using a premade game-maker type engine, something that lets you test out your ideas without the overhead of having to code up a brand new engine. Could even use something like Unity 3d or another engine like unreal, that has scripting and keeps all the dirty internal mechanics hidden away from you.
I'm saying this because your reply made me think, "arrogant" for lack of better word, even though you're trying to appear humble. I didn't read most of your ideas, I skimmed them, ideas are ideas and I'm not looking for ideas, ideas are a dime a dozen. The point is if YOU want to make your ideas, you have to pick the method to make them, how and why. If you REALLY are okay being a programmer then go for it, but don't waste your time trying to force yourself to be one if you don't -really- want to. People like Notch could be considered designers that program, but no, Notch LOVES to program, that's the difference. He learned to program before he learned to pick games he likes, and quite honestly Notch isn't much of a designer anyway, the idea of Minecraft was a simple idea that just took off because it's so open-ended. If you had Notch designing a story based RPG or an MMO or something it'd never work out.
I don't mind learning to code and I understand that it will take a lot longer than I originaly thought (It takes people a couple years to get "good" at a certain language, programming or not) and hey, if I fail, I'd love to work in the game industry in any way I can help, lol. (Gaming is my passion)
I wanted to make games ever since I was a kid, but for awhile I gave up on the idea. I gave up because I faced the reality of the industry: if you want to do a job you have to -really- want to do it. You have to be an audio person, a level developer, a modeler, an artist, a production person, or a designer. You have to be one of those and you have to REALLY want to work for it, the industry expects big degrees and lots of experience and the best coders in the world, and pays pretty mediocre for the experience. It isn't bad pay certainly, but it isn't very good for the industry it is.
I gave up because I know I'm not an artist or a sound guy, I tried level design and coding and I just never felt that comfortable with level development, too artsy for me. Programming was all I felt like I could do to get in, and quite honestly, it took me getting ready to get into college to decide, "could I really make it as a programmer? Do I really want to stare at code 14 hours a day for the next xx years of my life?" I decided I love making games enough that I'd have fun -just- programming them, so that's what I'm doing. College is around where you start deciding what you really want to do with your life, it's like being in egypt staring at a bunch of tables, "which task do you want to specialize in" do I want to make bricks or mine or be an artist or carry water or farm or what have you. The point where you start wondering what you'll be happy doing for a very long time, and I came up with that.
I kind of figured that out on my own actually, but I don't have any Idea how to do 3D rendering, I'm assuming your talking about 3D rendering, because 2D and tile based graphics don't exactly seem hard to me (in my head anyways, that may change sooner or later, feel free to correct me)
2d isn't that bad, depending on what you do, it still can be. People underestimate 2d sometimes, 2d can have lighting and particles and shaders and all kinds of fancy tricks too. That stuff does use advanced math in certain cases, 3d is just more known for it because it uses things like physics, 3d translation and the above mentioned things. Physics is a big one I forgot to mention, if you want to be a physics programmer you're in for lots of reading.
Talking to you I have learned some new information, that was fun, but I also have a slight feeling that all of this isn't generally directed towards me, but to other wanna-be-coders as well.
I don't mind chatting, it's all food for thought anyway, I can warn someone how dangerous skydiving is and how fun it is but I can never explain -what- it is until you flat out jump out of a plane yourself and feel it. But at least you got things to think about. Yes most of the information applies to wanna-be-coders, but you are a wanna-be-coder so of course it applies to you as well.
If you think I'm making fun of your ideas or something, I'm not, it's just like I said, ideas are dime a dozen. I'm sure 10k people had the idea for Minecraft before Notch, but look who was the only guy to go and actually code the thing, and he got rich off it. I've seen way too many flakes both professional and casual to take game ideas as anything but that, ideas, dreams, nonsense. If someone has the backing to actually MAKE a game and make it playable, then we're talking, now I'm interested!
Maybe another world though, I know it's a game and all but I would not think that earth would be a good setting but it's not my game so... GO CRAZY!
I WAS BEING STUPID AND DID NOT SEE IT WAS ANOTHER WORLD *Face2desk*.
Will you be making a thread on this here if all goes to plan?
I don't even know what to say to these strikethrough'd lines. It's just an image anyway, even if it was the earth. He could have put a pretty pony picture for the background if he wanted. It's obviously not the earth though if we want to go into geography.
The point was him asking how the menu looks for the moment.
Sorry about all the unanwsered questions and what not, I'm just really terrible at explaining things, worse at doing a presentation, lol...and now, more questions to anwser...Still better than doing homework, lol.
It wasn't really about networking in general just "the disciplines" of coding you can get into, the fact they all take an inordinate amount of time to learn and even longer to perfect.
Oh, I've been talking to some coders on the MC Forum, I've thought about programming as a carreer path and with all the research I've done with that, I've learned that there are many different disciplines of coding that you can get into, sure I don't know what I'd like to specialize into.
No you never said it, but most people think it, and that's what I was directing my point at, people in general. I'll be honest, I find games like Tetris and Pac-man and stuff like that completely boring, retro classics or not. I'm just more of an adventure person or an action person, arcade-puzzles were never my thing. Very few people out there think* making Pong sounds fun even if you're a great coder, so I was just putting emphasis on the fact that you should make something that will help you learn, even if it isn't fun to make it.
I never said it and I never thought pong was a boring game, but yeah, I understand "People in general", for some reason I've never thought of myself as "People in General", but every day I find more and more reasons to consider myself so.
Sure I'm not saying/thinking that making Pong will be boring, but I'm not saying/thinking making pong sounds fun, sure I can already think of ways to make it "unique" and what not, but what I consider fun is the fact of after all that hard work seeing what you've done, testing it and making it better, maybe even for the recognition of having done a good job, but I'd go through everything "not as fun", to get to the "End Game" that is fun and fix everything to make it funner.
Well, don't copy me just to copy me, make whatever you want, I just guarantee you that if you make a Pong game start to finish, polished with all the bells and whistles: menus, sound, buttons, score tracking, game over screen/simple AI, maybe a high-score system, you'll be completely astounded at how many hours you put in even if you make a conservative guess.
I probably will too, even if it's close to my guess, and the more you talk about, menus, sounds, buttons, score tracking, everything you said makes it sound fun, not just the game, but the development.
It may or may not apply to you, I'm only saying it for your own good, cause, I was exactly the same way. I always read it in books and stuff and was like, "I know what to expect!" but really it's like I said, if you actually get down and write it, it's never what you expect, even as a worst case scenario. It just takes an amount of time and focus I couldn't really pin down. Keep in mind I'm talking about a Pong game, I can play a game like MW3 and try and imagine how much code is there and even then, it's hard to imagine how much code even when you've done it a lot.
Well this sounds like it's going to apply to me...sort of...I mean I'm not exactly the person to say "I know what to expect", more of "Expect the worst and I don't even know what that is". And about your last statement I completely agree with you
It's true and not true, I think a lot of people severely overplay how "reusable" code is. Sure something like an image loader is reusable, it always does the same thing, but a lot of other pieces of code just have very different requirements from project to project. Certainly all the game logic will have to be started from scratch.
To be honest, that's about all I think could be reuseble and (again, also depending on the game you are making) the damaging systems will seem similar, but everything else will probably vary
Designing is what takes forever, that and refactoring and bug fixing. Honestly even when I know what I need to write it takes forever to actually get it down, formatted, commented, test it, etc.
I can only imagine *shutter* and I'm just assuming *shutter*
That's usually one of the dead giveaways to me that someone is either young or inexperienced, or both. Not saying a lot of professional programmers don't think of game makers and things as "kiddy tools" but they're just idiots. I'm a firm believer in the idealogy that if you want to make games you should MAKE GAMES. Making games does not mean being a programmer, or an artist, or anything in particular. Making games means you want to contribute to making a game, that sets what your options are.
You're a designer, obviously, but that's why I asked, do you REALLY want to learn to program? Or are you just doing it because you feel like you -have to- because I can guarentee you unless you really like programming too you're gonna get sick of spending 90% of your time writing code and 10% of it figuring out design.
Just look at...page two was it, then find the Wacko guy and see everything else he's written (bashing game maker) and he's said he is around 12 or 13.....
I've never bashed programs like game-makers, you can make fun even awesome games with game-makers, but I'd like to go with learning a programing language, since to me, game-makers tells me it makes games, maybe it can do other things yes, but with learning to program (in general) you have somewhat of a fall back plan.
Just going on technicalities here, but you said "would you mind [...]. if no [...], do I REALLY want to learn to program? Hell (Bleep) Yes, I'm not doing it because I have to, so that I can make games, no if I wanted to make games solely, I would have probably started with game maker. I want to learn to program, get into the industry, if not getting a career in Game Development than another field which might involve programming, I wouldn't just quit.
I know making games doesn't mean being X, Y or Z, I want to contribute to making a game, yes wether it be in the office, writting about it, etc. I'd love to work on games.
The other part I asked was if you're a team leader, a lot of game designers are not team leaders, they don't neccesarily have to be, they're just that, designers. If you are a team leader, then maybe looking for people to help you would be best, or using a premade game-maker type engine, something that lets you test out your ideas without the overhead of having to code up a brand new engine. Could even use something like Unity 3d or another engine like unreal, that has scripting and keeps all the dirty internal mechanics hidden away from you.
People know me as shy, a follower, etc. When ever I try to get people organized IRL, it depends on how much people respect me, here I guess I could create a team, if not, then yeah, I guess I could do stuff like that (prototyping with game maker or maybe unity or unreal, but I'd want to do a bit more research about it and what not. I see the logic in your words, but I don't know if I'll follow them, I probably will in the future, it's how my life has gone for the past couple of years.
I'm saying this because your reply made me think, "arrogant" for lack of better word, even though you're trying to appear humble.
Sorry about that , I knew I was going to fail somewhere in there to try and get my feelings across and I probably was being arrogant there...again Sorry about that.
I didn't read most of your ideas, I skimmed them, ideas are ideas and I'm not looking for ideas, ideas are a dime a dozen.
Point taken
The point is if YOU want to make your ideas, you have to pick the method to make them, how and why. If you REALLY are okay being a programmer then go for it, but don't waste your time trying to force yourself to be one if you don't -really- want to.
I want to be a programmer, I want to program, maybe make games as a career, in my spare time, idk, but I want to program, I don't exactly know why, people said my father was into that kind of stuff, etc., etc. but I do know how I can do it.
People like Notch could be considered designers that program, but no, Notch LOVES to program, that's the difference. He learned to program before he learned to pick games he likes, and quite honestly Notch isn't much of a designer anyway, the idea of Minecraft was a simple idea that just took off because it's so open-ended. If you had Notch designing a story based RPG or an MMO or something it'd never work out.
...*Nods* (I can't think of anything to say to that withouth destroying it, sorry)
I wanted to make games ever since I was a kid, but for awhile I gave up on the idea. I gave up because I faced the reality of the industry: if you want to do a job you have to -really- want to do it. You have to be an audio person, a level developer, a modeler, an artist, a production person, or a designer. You have to be one of those and you have to REALLY want to work for it, the industry expects big degrees and lots of experience and the best coders in the world, and pays pretty mediocre for the experience. It isn't bad pay certainly, but it isn't very good for the industry it is.
Yeah, I've looked for jobs in the industry, even in some Indie companies, and what I see for positions are big degrees that take a while to get and then I see stuff like "lots of experience in X field", which kind of sucks when you think of how to get lot's of experience after/during college/university, sure there are ways..but I think you understand where I'm comming from.
I gave up because I know I'm not an artist or a sound guy, I tried level design and coding and I just never felt that comfortable with level development, too artsy for me. Programming was all I felt like I could do to get in, and quite honestly, it took me getting ready to get into college to decide, "could I really make it as a programmer? Do I really want to stare at code 14 hours a day for the next xx years of my life?" I decided I love making games enough that I'd have fun -just- programming them, so that's what I'm doing. College is around where you start deciding what you really want to do with your life, it's like being in egypt staring at a bunch of tables, "which task do you want to specialize in" do I want to make bricks or mine or be an artist or carry water or farm or what have you. The point where you start wondering what you'll be happy doing for a very long time, and I came up with that.
I don't think that programming is all I can do to get in, I haven't just looked at the programming aspects of the gaming industry, but other parts as well, the social aspects of it (I suck at doing art on the comp or anything IRL in anything other than Black and White) and then there are the designing aspects, which I have no Idea how that could work as some sort of career, but you know, I might learn.
2d isn't that bad, depending on what you do, it still can be. People underestimate 2d sometimes, 2d can have lighting and particles and shaders and all kinds of fancy tricks too. That stuff does use advanced math in certain cases, 3d is just more known for it because it uses things like physics, 3d translation and the above mentioned things. Physics is a big one I forgot to mention, if you want to be a physics programmer you're in for lots of reading.
I don't underestimate 2D games at all, I guess I underestimate how hard it is to develop, but not what they are able to do or convey or everything you can add to them, of course in the end, the complicated stuff will use advanced math. 3D sure is cool, but..not for me...not right now.
And Physics, I have toyed around with how physics works in 2d video games and every way I see it (in my head) is way to simple and therefore I tell myself that it's wrong and that I probably have a lot of stuff ahead of me. May I ask you, if you've ever dabbled in Physics Programming and if so, how did that go?
I don't mind chatting, it's all food for thought anyway, I can warn someone how dangerous skydiving is and how fun it is but I can never explain -what- it is until you flat out jump out of a plane yourself and feel it. But at least you got things to think about. Yes most of the information applies to wanna-be-coders, but you are a wanna-be-coder so of course it applies to you as well.
Yes, I guess it does, I'm not just a wanna-be coder I'm also oblivious at times....gotta work on that. And maybe I'll see what you mean later on.
If you think I'm making fun of your ideas or something, I'm not, it's just like I said, ideas are dime a dozen. I'm sure 10k people had the idea for Minecraft before Notch, but look who was the only guy to go and actually code the thing, and he got rich off it. I've seen way too many flakes both professional and casual to take game ideas as anything but that, ideas, dreams, nonsense. If someone has the backing to actually MAKE a game and make it playable, then we're talking, now I'm interested!
Hey, I never thought you where making fun of my game Ideas, since you really never talked about (my logic isn't that flawed). And who knows maybe later I'll be able to have the backing (maybe myself or with a team and etc.) to create one of these games, then no one can steal my ideas from me, mwahahahahahaha....>.>....<.<......
Oh, I've been talking to some coders on the MC Forum, I've thought about programming as a carreer path and with all the research I've done with that, I've learned that there are many different disciplines of coding that you can get into, sure I don't know what I'd like to specialize into.
Honestly based on your thread I thought you were set on being a designer. If you want to be a programmer that's rather different.
I never said it and I never thought pong was a boring game, but yeah, I understand "People in general", for some reason I've never thought of myself as "People in General", but every day I find more and more reasons to consider myself so.
It's a boring game(to me anyway) but it teaches good things, it's like learning to work on cars so you change your parents oil. Not very glamorous but it helps you start learning, especially if you get some looks under the hood. It's nice talking to someone that atleast pretends to be level headed(I have no idea if you are, text is easy to fake through) most people take me saying "people in general" as some kind of sideways personal attack. Usually when I use people in general I try to include stuff I would do/have done too, not just to rag on anyone that "isn't part of the in crowd."
I probably will too, even if it's close to my guess, and the more you talk about, menus, sounds, buttons, score tracking, everything you said makes it sound fun, not just the game, but the development.
Well, pick a language and start coding then, deciding if coding is right for you is one of those things you make or break in the pixel mines.
Well this sounds like it's going to apply to me...sort of...I mean I'm not exactly the person to say "I know what to expect", more of "Expect the worst and I don't even know what that is". And about your last statement I completely agree with you
It's more the fact that even I thought I wasn't one of those people but really, it's a rule that applies to everyone, you can't really know until you start trying. There's a lot of complexity to coding that just can't come up in books, all I'm saying is, you'll probably be surprised no matter what you do!
To be honest, that's about all I think could be reuseble and (again, also depending on the game you are making) the damaging systems will seem similar, but everything else will probably vary
Definitely depends on the engine and the game content. There's a way to design a game to just be an engine, where you can inherit and customize everything, then there's just making an engine for your specific game, that's the problem, it isn't very reusable.
Just look at...page two was it, then find the Wacko guy and see everything else he's written (bashing game maker) and he's said he is around 12 or 13.....
I've heard enough ignorance from people of all ages on different topics to fill a small ocean probably. People just like to think they know what they're talking about, there's so many people out there that cite like the word of the heavens that Java must suck because Minecraft is coded crappily, Notch can't possibly be at fault for that... ... can he!? Hell that's just one example in a sea.
I've never bashed programs like game-makers, you can make fun even awesome games with game-makers, but I'd like to go with learning a programing language, since to me, game-makers tells me it makes games, maybe it can do other things yes, but with learning to program (in general) you have somewhat of a fall back plan.
I only made that comment again because at the bottom of your previous reply you sounded like you completely hated the idea of "game makers" but I see now that you actually want to learn to code.
Just going on technicalities here, but you said "would you mind [...]. if no [...], do I REALLY want to learn to program? Hell (Bleep) Yes, I'm not doing it because I have to, so that I can make games, no if I wanted to make games solely, I would have probably started with game maker. I want to learn to program, get into the industry, if not getting a career in Game Development than another field which might involve programming, I wouldn't just quit.
Honestly if you really want to get into the game industry, you'll have to pick a profession, and work at it. There's no real "easy opening" into game dev, you have to pick a job and build a portfolio. If you want to be an artist? Hell start drawing! Programmer? Make that post-apocalyptic survival game you always wanted to, complete with terrible programmer stick figures! Sound? Time to compose soundtracks for a game(this is a REALLY good time to work on games like RPG maker or something more professional, it's so easy to apply sound to any engine).
Gamedev.net has a lot of good resources about this stuff.
People know me as shy, a follower, etc. When ever I try to get people organized IRL, it depends on how much people respect me, here I guess I could create a team, if not, then yeah, I guess I could do stuff like that (prototyping with game maker or maybe unity or unreal, but I'd want to do a bit more research about it and what not. I see the logic in your words, but I don't know if I'll follow them, I probably will in the future, it's how my life has gone for the past couple of years.
Well, if you don't want a team, then you can certainly work by yourself or with some others, programming is definitely the most important part of a game, as much as that would **** off industry veterans to hear. Programmers can use crappy art and sound, artists and musicians can't use a non-existant game engine with their work. Sure they can make the work free-form, but not applied to an actual game. That's the tradeoff. It's also the reason programmers tend to be paid the most, they're the mechanics.
Yeah, I've looked for jobs in the industry, even in some Indie companies, and what I see for positions are big degrees that take a while to get and then I see stuff like "lots of experience in X field", which kind of sucks when you think of how to get lot's of experience after/during college/university, sure there are ways..but I think you understand where I'm comming from.
Generally you need college or a really good way into the industry, contacts, very good previous work, etc. Even college is just a piece of paper, you have to end up making games and have a portfolio to stand a serious chance, even if you aim for a smaller indy studio. The biggest thing game devs want is for you to prove that you can work on games without someone prompting you to, that you have fun doing it.
I don't think that programming is all I can do to get in, I haven't just looked at the programming aspects of the gaming industry, but other parts as well, the social aspects of it (I suck at doing art on the comp or anything IRL in anything other than Black and White) and then there are the designing aspects, which I have no Idea how that could work as some sort of career, but you know, I might learn.
I'd honestly tell you to pick a profession, try them all if you must, but decide on one. Being a jack of all trades is a waste of the game industry.
I don't underestimate 2D games at all, I guess I underestimate how hard it is to develop, but not what they are able to do or convey or everything you can add to them, of course in the end, the complicated stuff will use advanced math. 3D sure is cool, but..not for me...not right now.
3d is a big difference from 2d simply from the logistics of it. With 2d it's much easier to control movements because everything is just an x and a y, with 3d you have to use a lot of vector math and magical nonsense just to be able to figure out where something is in 3d space, that's the main issue.
Of course 2d comes in many flavors, coated in shaders or even isometric can add extra dimensions to it. But in general 2d is much simpler than 3d, and 3d obviously can feature quite a few more techniques than 2d. 3d may just be an added dimension but it allows a completely different realm of visual technology, especially as time goes on.
And Physics, I have toyed around with how physics works in 2d video games and every way I see it (in my head) is way to simple and therefore I tell myself that it's wrong and that I probably have a lot of stuff ahead of me. May I ask you, if you've ever dabbled in Physics Programming and if so, how did that go?
No i've never really worked on physics, I've read about it a bit but never really used it thus far. Physics can get complex even in 2d depending on how "realistic" you go for. It's easy to make a box slide back and forth and fall at a certain speed. It's hard to make a wheel that rolls down a hill, spinning and bouncing off every bump and even reversing direction when it hits the ground, due to the reversing motion. Heck you can even get into materials in 2d, make some rubber goop wheel that sticks to walls or sucks itself onto the ceiling, or compresses and bounces. It's a neat concept, but I'm sure it gets math heavy depending on what you want to do.
Well, it's not exactly what I envisionned it would be (the image in the background is something I'd suggest to be changed), but it's still pretty early to say anything, and it is simply a loading screen.
I guess I'm actually going to have to think of what should be added to the loading screen itself....Do you have any Ideas, ll
"Honestly, i thought that you were set being a game designer"
You can be both.
Im a Game designer, modeler, rigger, texturer, animator,level designer and a coder.
How?
There's a difference between being something and spending 5 minutes doing it. You aren't an artist if you draw stick figure art for games, you aren't a designer if you just throw an idea together, you aren't a modeler if you make advanced stick figures.
Being something is doing it as a career. It's possible to be a programmer and a designer by trade or a programmer and a producer, but you can't be everything at once, it just doesn't happen.
I made it a point in one of my posts, a programmer in an AAA studio can work 8-14 hours a day, sometimes during crunch periods they may do nothing short of work and sleep. How would you ever even specialize in multiple jobs like that? Impossibility.
Most game developers work absurd hours doing just THEIR job.
Honestly based on your thread I thought you were set on being a designer. If you want to be a programmer that's rather different.
Oh....Well this or that, probably programmer, better job industry and fall back plans, kind of hard to create a porfolio for video game designer (the field that I'm looking for)
It's a boring game(to me anyway) but it teaches good things, it's like learning to work on cars so you change your parents oil. Not very glamorous but it helps you start learning, especially if you get some looks under the hood.
Well sure in the begining pong isn't very glamourus, but when you start adding stuff to it and everything else, it can become something...well at least something interesting...
It's nice talking to someone that atleast pretends to be level headed(I have no idea if you are, text is easy to fake through) most people take me saying "people in general" as some kind of sideways personal attack. Usually when I use people in general I try to include stuff I would do/have done too, not just to rag on anyone that "isn't part of the in crowd."
Don't worry I'm not pretending to be level headed, I am one of the few that can keep my cool, I can't exactly explain why, since I'm not exactly sure, and I don't take "people in general" as some kind of subtle personal attack because..well, I explained it eariler. And also the way you use examples that you've done should stop idiots from getting a stupid counter argument
Well, pick a language and start coding then, deciding if coding is right for you is one of those things you make or break in the pixel mines.
I've picked the language (Java), might learn some C++ stuff (my friend says his friend might want to teach somebody it) and I've already invested in a book for it (Java for dummies) and I follow some youtube Tutorial (some unoficial and some stuff from stanford).
It's more the fact that even I thought I wasn't one of those people but really, it's a rule that applies to everyone, you can't really know until you start trying. There's a lot of complexity to coding that just can't come up in books, all I'm saying is, you'll probably be surprised no matter what you do!
True...there isn't exactly anything I can do about it either, except to try and prepare, to make it seem like I won't be surprised, lol
Definitely depends on the engine and the game content. There's a way to design a game to just be an engine, where you can inherit and customize everything, then there's just making an engine for your specific game, that's the problem, it isn't very reusable.
Yeah, if I ever make an engine, I'd attempt to make it so it's reseuable and customizable (Options for the win, I'm an Immersionist that way),
I've heard enough ignorance from people of all ages on different topics to fill a small ocean probably. People just like to think they know what they're talking about, there's so many people out there that cite like the word of the heavens that Java must suck because Minecraft is coded crappily, Notch can't possibly be at fault for that... ... can he!? Hell that's just one example in a sea.
And then those same people go Derpidy, Derpidy, Derp all the way home. I never though of Minecraft codded crappily, more as I thought it was a versatile engine which can be used to create epic mods and etc. (if enough time has been put into it), but again, noob-programmer
I only made that comment again because at the bottom of your previous reply you sounded like you completely hated the idea of "game makers" but I see now that you actually want to learn to code.
Oh...well...yeah I think something was worked out
Honestly if you really want to get into the game industry, you'll have to pick a profession, and work at it. There's no real "easy opening" into game dev, you have to pick a job and build a portfolio. If you want to be an artist? Hell start drawing! Programmer? Make that post-apocalyptic survival game you always wanted to, complete with terrible programmer stick figures! Sound? Time to compose soundtracks for a game(this is a REALLY good time to work on games like RPG maker or something more professional, it's so easy to apply sound to any engine).
But to build a porfolio, you need to learn about the subject you're applying too, but in the end, that is what I'll do, or what I plan to do....
Gamedev.net has a lot of good resources about this stuff.
Yay, more resources...I have to start noting these down somewhere
Well, if you don't want a team, then you can certainly work by yourself or with some others, programming is definitely the most important part of a game, as much as that would **** off industry veterans to hear. Programmers can use crappy art and sound, artists and musicians can't use a non-existant game engine with their work. Sure they can make the work free-form, but not applied to an actual game. That's the tradeoff. It's also the reason programmers tend to be paid the most, they're the mechanics.
Well, I wouldn't mind working in a team, nothing very professional at first, and then look for the future.
And yeah...as much as it pains everybody else, programming is almost essential in a game (unless you use game makers, but the problem is, if a programmer uses crappy art and crappy sound (or even no sound at all), it may hinder the game, especially with todays youth, together, they rule the world. And the people who are able to do music and program, or do art and program, or maybe all three, those guys are really lucky.
Generally you need college or a really good way into the industry, contacts, very good previous work, etc. Even college is just a piece of paper, you have to end up making games and have a portfolio to stand a serious chance, even if you aim for a smaller indy studio. The biggest thing game devs want is for you to prove that you can work on games without someone prompting you to, that you have fun doing it.
This is good to know, dually noted
I'd honestly tell you to pick a profession, try them all if you must, but decide on one. Being a jack of all trades is a waste of the game industry.
May I ask why it is a waste of the gaming industry to become a jack of all trrades?
3d is a big difference from 2d simply from the logistics of it. With 2d it's much easier to control movements because everything is just an x and a y, with 3d you have to use a lot of vector math and magical nonsense just to be able to figure out where something is in 3d space, that's the main issue.
*Nods*
Of course 2d comes in many flavors, coated in shaders or even isometric can add extra dimensions to it. But in general 2d is much simpler than 3d, and 3d obviously can feature quite a few more techniques than 2d. 3d may just be an added dimension but it allows a completely different realm of visual technology, especially as time goes on.
Yeah, that is very true.....but I'm a beginner I have an excuse, lol (Slap me if I say that again in a couple of months/years)
No i've never really worked on physics, I've read about it a bit but never really used it thus far. Physics can get complex even in 2d depending on how "realistic" you go for. It's easy to make a box slide back and forth and fall at a certain speed. It's hard to make a wheel that rolls down a hill, spinning and bouncing off every bump and even reversing direction when it hits the ground, due to the reversing motion. Heck you can even get into materials in 2d, make some rubber goop wheel that sticks to walls or sucks itself onto the ceiling, or compresses and bounces. It's a neat concept, but I'm sure it gets math heavy depending on what you want to do.
...Sounds like something... (I'm just immagining Pong with Physics and the ability to choose the material your paddle is made out of, lol, Rubber Paddle ). But I'd probably use an already developped Physics Library for that kind of thing (or If I feel like a challenge...)
Once again, thank you for your time
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Off Topic Randomness
You know you're too much into game modelling when you reffer to drawing as creating a static mesh...
Oh....Well this or that, probably programmer, better job industry and fall back plans, kind of hard to create a porfolio for video game designer (the field that I'm looking for)
Read gamedev, they literally talk about being a producer or a designer, there are ways to do it. Tom sloper's website is probably one of the best resources for stuff like this.
I've picked the language (Java), might learn some C++ stuff (my friend says his friend might want to teach somebody it) and I've already invested in a book for it (Java for dummies) and I follow some youtube Tutorial (some unoficial and some stuff from stanford).
You'll probably have to learn C++ if you want an industry job, but, that varies of course, look at Mojang.
And then those same people go Derpidy, Derpidy, Derp all the way home. I never though of Minecraft codded crappily, more as I thought it was a versatile engine which can be used to create epic mods and etc. (if enough time has been put into it), but again, noob-programmer
Minecraft has an extremely messy source, there's a lot of classes that are just kinda there, some of them are blank and not used. Some methods call other methods that are blank, stuff tends to get passed all around this way and that, the rendering has had a lot of improvements too, it used to be much worse. Heck Minecraft doesn't even use models, the models are hand created in the code. Never even heard of anything like that before.
As for it being modded, it's only even like that because of Java, people spend the time to keep MCP updated, which basically decompiles the source code and renames the files and functions and everything to deobfuscate it. Basically the only reason modding exists at all for the game is because the community forces it on the game in a completely illegal way.
May I ask why it is a waste of the gaming industry to become a jack of all trrades?
Jack of all trades, master of none. You can't be good at everything, you're sacrificing skill in one field to spread it evenly amongst others. Even if you could manage that, imagine making a big game, you'd spend the next few years of your life doing EVERYTHING yourself, for no real reason.
...Sounds like something... (I'm just immagining Pong with Physics and the ability to choose the material your paddle is made out of, lol, Rubber Paddle ). But I'd probably use an already developped Physics Library for that kind of thing (or If I feel like a challenge...)
Most people do use libraries, really if you write your own physics library that makes an extremely impressive tech demo for a company. There's a reason almost everyone out there uses Havok or Physx or something.
Read gamedev, they literally talk about being a producer or a designer, there are ways to do it. Tom sloper's website is probably one of the best resources for stuff like this.
I read a bit of Gamedev, it seems interesting, so I guess I'll have to decide later, I'll look into Tom sloper's website as well...
Minecraft has an extremely messy source, there's a lot of classes that are just kinda there, some of them are blank and not used. Some methods call other methods that are blank, stuff tends to get passed all around this way and that, the rendering has had a lot of improvements too, it used to be much worse. Heck Minecraft doesn't even use models, the models are hand created in the code. Never even heard of anything like that before.
Oh...so that's why it's so laggy....I guess that's what Optifine does (as well with other stuff)...
And sure you've never heard of models created in the code, but does that specifically means they are bad? Could you possibly explain/ellaborate on how models and what not are usually created, and then added into the code?
As for it being modded, it's only even like that because of Java, people spend the time to keep MCP updated, which basically decompiles the source code and renames the files and functions and everything to deobfuscate it. Basically the only reason modding exists at all for the game is because the community forces it on the game in a completely illegal way.
"in a completely illegal way" that is allowed by the maker, the developers and the studio itself. Sure it's not exactly right, it's sort of a place holder for the Modding API and what not.
Sure it might not be the best way to get it to be modded right now, but you have to egmit there are a bunch of cool mods made with it like that, withouth it's modding scene it might not be as popular as it is today.
Jack of all trades, master of none. You can't be good at everything, you're sacrificing skill in one field to spread it evenly amongst others. Even if you could manage that, imagine making a big game, you'd spend the next few years of your life doing EVERYTHING yourself, for no real reason.
....Then um...what about Leanoardo da vinci?...If he wasn't the master of what he practiced, then who was?
Sure you might not master anything, but when do you ever master anything? it takes, what was it 40 000 (or was it 4 000) hours of work/practice to be able to classify yourself as an expert in your field (which is a lot, unless you practice daily) and is usually only obtainable through a life time of work (again, unless you practice daily)
Most people do use libraries, really if you write your own physics library that makes an extremely impressive tech demo for a company. There's a reason almost everyone out there uses Havok or Physx or something.
I'll keep that in mind, maybe I will create a cool Physics library as a tech demo one day....maybe I will....
You are a modeler if you can make a detailed man
You are a rigger if you can rig him with a realistic skeleton
You are an animator when you can animate a fluid running motion
You are a level designer when you can make highly detailed probs run without lag and make a interesting level.
You are a game designer when you can write a very indepth GDD on your idea.
Moral of the story: you can easily do more than one thing.
Yeah, right, listen to yourself. I could just as easily say:
You are a plumber if you unclog your toilet.
You are a painter if you roll your bedroom walls.
You are a carpenter if assemble a desk from pieces.
You're an electrician if you fix a broken socket.
You're a mathematician if you write a formula.
Really, all of these things are things that professionals do, just that make you one? Of course not, being a professional in a field means devoting years to mastering it, you can't seriously call yourself a certain something just because you did something with it one time, that's absurd. It's like calling yourself a programmer because you wrote a calculator one time in fourth grade.
The funny thing is, even after all that terrible logic, I still haven't met anyone that has even accomplished that list of things you said.
And sure you've never heard of models created in the code, but does that specifically means they are bad? Could you possibly explain/ellaborate on how models and what not are usually created, and then added into the code?
It doesn't mean it's bad, it's just simplistic. Models are just a data format usually, they contain all the information about the polygonal makeup of an object. Basically all the vertices and such, the program is what exports the files, which can have tens of thousands of bits of data to read in just to load that single model into memory, obviously that's why modeling software was made in the first place, to create an easy way to do it and subsequently let the coder load the models easily.
In Minecraft it sort of makes sense, simply because Minecraft models are just a few boxes stuck together, little enough code to make it work. The problem is that it was very straightforward and not much thought at all. When Notch ended up having to make the Enderdragon he literally had to string like 4-5 mobs together in the code just to make it work, simply because he coded himself into a wall. Other than his code being messy and usually extremely inefficient he ends up never making anything modular or predicting what functionality he might need in the future.
"in a completely illegal way" that is allowed by the maker, the developers and the studio itself. Sure it's not exactly right, it's sort of a place holder for the Modding API and what not.
Sure it might not be the best way to get it to be modded right now, but you have to egmit there are a bunch of cool mods made with it like that, withouth it's modding scene it might not be as popular as it is today.
I used to sit on IRC with most of the people who make those mods, never bothered me in the least. The point is that it's completely unethical that minecraft is so completely shut off from the world that the only way we were ever able to mod it was by flat out decompiling the files. People think Notch made some great stride to make the game moddable, but realistically, he didn't do a damn thing, he sat there and everyone else took the reins and MADE it work. The fact is that even though Notch doesn't consider it bad, it is illegal, it's tampering with the software. Having to do that to mod a game is pretty much unthinkable, games like the elder scrolls series flat out have API's for modding.
....Then um...what about Leanoardo da vinci?...If he wasn't the master of what he practiced, then who was?
Sure you might not master anything, but when do you ever master anything? it takes, what was it 40 000 (or was it 4 000) hours of work/practice to be able to classify yourself as an expert in your field (which is a lot, unless you practice daily) and is usually only obtainable through a life time of work (again, unless you practice daily)
What about da vinci? He was a great artist and inventor, the two went hand in hand for him and he devoted pretty much his entire life to tireless study of both things, he was no jack of all trades he was a master of a few.
Update
- Added New Game Concept
The Infection, The Futuristic Zombie Apocalypse
That game concept has been in a document for a while, and I still need to go through all the mechanics and what not, and refreshen it.
Also, I have a
Question...
About Gaming Knowledge
--------------
What do you guys want to know.
There are some stuff that I know, some stuff I need to research and some stuff I can just not cover.
What I want to know is what do you want to know? Why simple games work so well? Why Game Devs don't give as much control to Players in games (or the an even more extented version, in MMOs), etc.
Tell me what you want to know, and who knows, it may just be the next topic of the Game Designer's Theories.
Also, would you like me to put down some sort of Weapon List, so instead of always writting it down, I can just say "Refer to Weapon List"? and then add to that, create an Armour list and Material list and etc. It sounds like a Good Idea to me (I've already started a .doc on it), but I don't know how it feels for you
And Game Devs don't give players so much control for a few reasons. One is that they might not want to give the player too much control in order to progress a story line, another is to reduce cheating ability. The amount of bases that you have to cover when writing a game to catch cheaters is ridiculous. It's hard enough to make the game itself, giving the player control is hard work, which is why games like minecraft, which give you a lot of control take hard work.
Speaking as a Game Developer, I find all of these to be the most limiting factors when making a game and finding that balance of user control. It's very hard to allow someone to do EVERYTHING without having to sacrifice certain features of the game, or the way that gameplay actually works. It seems as though you code it, and it all sorta falls into a certain way that the game is played. The actual overall game is just generally a bunch of features based around a core concept, and to make those features work, the core concept is shaved and bulked in different places until it's something rather different to what you imagined at the start.
I know that, I've known that for a while, it aggravates me when people (totalbiscuit) ask the "audience" in a recording on youtube, why don't game developers do stuff like that...but again, I was asking what does the public want to know about certain gaming subjects
And I hope you have fun creating the game
I think people are just not ready for the sheer amount of code, planning, etc that even a simple Pong game takes, much less a multiplayer realtime game.
Not trying to put you down or anything but if you're gonna pick one of your games to try and code, pick the easiest one. There are people that can make such a game out there but: A, it will take them a LONG time. B, If they can manage it, it means they learned to be a programmer to be a programmer.
There's a reason game designers get paid to write documentation 8+ hours a day, its because it is THAT big a job. Programming is absurdly slow, I end up writing a couple pages of logic code in a day if I'm lucky, not all code is created equally either. Of course, that's easy to quantify, just look at math. A complex mathematical formula may only be 7 or 8 characters of writing with some lines between them, and it could have taken years to invent that tiny formula, compare that to your average much longer simple division problem.
Well, not exactly, I'd like to learn Java to create some kind of game, I don't exactly know which one yet or if I'd pick one from the pile, it's more as a side project and something to help me learn, if I ever get it started. I'd also like to create useful programs in Java (I don't exactly know which ones right now, lol) But Multiplayer in any game Idea that I have right now, is somewhat of..well...after I'm done everything else (more or less)
You probably are right, and I am probably one of those people, I mean, I've gone through what some classes might need and how it works (I've planned a little bit for some stuff), but I'm still learning, so I've probably made mistakes that I'll have to fix later.
Oh, and don't worry, I'm gonna pick something pretty easy (Something 2D, Simple), but ambitious, if I'd try to code it. I also understand that there are people who can do that and I know that for most games, it takes a while before you even hear of it, after it has been started and even after that, it takes a while for it to be officially released (there are some big games that are the exception). And again, I'd like to learn to be a programmer, but I'd like to learn the skills to then (sort of) focus on game development.
I totally understand where you are comming from, I know that I am not really a game designer, that I'm not paid to do so, that it is not my job, but it is something I like to do, I guess you can say a hobby of mine, and I'll continue it t'ill I don't want to anymore.
I understand that programming is absurdly slow, because of all the planning, the "locks" and etc. And I also know about the math thing, sure there are always some exceptions, but it has still taken a long time to figure out (in general), even with all their planning behind it and what not. I know it will take long to learn, and maybe in most cases even longer to create, but I know I am willing to put that investment in there. I might not understand completely how long it may take, but I am ready and willing to do so.
TL ; DR
In my mind, Multiplayer is my "End Game" when creating a game
MMOs can't happen, you need too much investments (depending on the type of game)
I completly understand where you're comming from.
Just think of multiplayer-networking and sockets and such, as a math discipline. You wouldn't go learn Calculus and Trig at the same time would you? I suppose you could but it'd take up a lot of your time and be something you have to devote your thoughts to on both. In the same train of thought, although networking has pretty much nothing to do with other code disciplines, the point is about time.
My advice? Pick something simple, make it work. When I started coding I was really young and naive just like everyone else. They tell you to make Pong or something, but you don't want to make it because it sounds boring. The thing is, they tell you for a reason, they tell you because every other programmer out there, including themselves, wanted to do the same thing as you, and start ahead. People like me tend to think, "Hey I'll just make a little hack and slash RPG, it's almost as simple as Pong." I honestly even REALLY recommend again this for one real reason: architecture.
The thing is creating an RPG as opposed to Pong isn't necessarily hard, the important part is that the underlying internals of the game are pretty much the same in your RPG as they are in Pong. If you're going to learn to take apart and put a car back together should you start with a junker that pulls apart into pieces or should you start with a corvette? People say to start with Pong simply because Pong is a -very easy- game to make and thus it lets you focus on all the complex underlying stuff without worrying too much about making the actual game.
Honestly everyone thinks that "hey I'm not THAT guy, I know that this is going to be hard, I'll fight and fight and overcome it!" Problem is, it's even harder than that. People just can't comprehend how much code even Pong takes, heck doing it in C++ takes hundreds if not thousands of lines of code even if you use libraries, there's just so much to actually write. People can't understand that every little thing you do in a game is code. Okay well I need to create my ball object and load the sprite and make the bouncing sound and.. wait I better go write an image loader. Okay now I need an image class, darn! Dang now I need a library to load ten different image formats! Really, it's just almost incomprehensible to most people until you actually do it.
Now, don't let me scare you, with libraries and languages like Java the code is significantly reduced of course, but the fact is that it's like trying to build a car from scratch. A car sounds pretty easy but three weeks later you'll be in your garage trying to design and cut a muffler and be going "this takes too damn long!"
Here's where things start to deviate, what is it you want to do? Do you want to be a programmer or do you just want to be a designer? Are you an organized person? Maybe you should find someone to help you code this thing, or a small team(be wary of online folks though, they're flaky). Use whatever tools you can get ahold of that makes your job the easiest. I always laugh when people downplay things like game makers and such because you can end up making some very -fun- games with those tools, that's what they are, tools.
Well, like I said above, what will be fun to you? Do you MIND learning coding? If not then you'll probably have to devote a lot of time to it.
Honestly most people are full of crap about the math required for games. Games use barely any math whatsoever, if you know basic arithmetic you're fine for game development, the only real exception to that is graphics. Rendering uses a lot of math, a lot of -complicated- math, why? Because it's geometry, you're trying to simulate shapes and models and pixel modification on a screen every few milliseconds, the math is all a way to help the computer translate what you want into visuals. There are a lot of games you can make that require little-no real math besides adding, subtracting, dividing, multiplying, etc.
Code -is- slow though, really slow. It's slow enough that I really couldn't ever explain it to another person without them doing the same thing. You just can't really visualize how "slow" it is, how you can spend hours staring at a screen and only make a few real lines of changes and suddenly, ding ding ding, it's 4 hours later and time to head home/to bed.
Just keep it simple is all I'm saying.
I made a note about that after I put it, a better comparison would be like, "you wouldn't go learn all of college math at once would you?"
Thing about Calculus vs Trig is that they're both math courses, math is a single problem thing. Learning coding is sort of all inclusive, you can't learn networking if you can't make a working game loop. You can't learn 3d graphics if the underlying engine code can't sustain it. You can't do it all at once, you have to learn it in bite sized chunks.
Yeah...Networking....Um....Again, Not really what I'd focus on in the first couple of years that I'd program (I might go as far to say the first couple dozen, but you know, optimist). I'm not planning to learn any multiplayer networking code right now, I'm simply trying to learn to code some stuff in Java, using my "Java for Dummies" book, since that seemed like the easiest way to learn
I never said I didn't want to make pong, I never said pong was boring, but I never really thought of making it, I guess I should start by something "that simple". It (probably) might help me out in the long run.
Now I understand why you are trying to tell me this (there is a difference between understanding what you say and why you say it). I wasn't really worried about how I intergrate most of the stuff that I planned out with words, since I knew I would have to start from scratch and work my way up, slowly but ...slowly, making the changes needed, but I guess we all had to start somewhere and I guess I might start with pong.
...Well I hope you're not reffering to me there, since I just egmitted to "being that guy". And your "People just don't understand" line, I understand, almost everytime I play a game, I try to imagine how hard it was to code and how this is all working, as with almost everything, of course, again, I'm just learning so my "educated guesses" are probably wrong and what not.
But I think what you forget to mention, if you're creating from scratch and are doing somewhat of the same kind of styled game, you will reuse most of your base code to do the other stuff, what you forget to mention is that some code is reusable , that (generally and sort of) once you create some code, you can reuse it for other projects that are of the similar variety, and you can refine it, which can then be added to your other projects (if needed, but will probably add changes to other code).
It will probably take thousands of line of code, sure a little % of it might be Copy and Pasting, but writting (code), no matter how experienced you are, takes a while.
You aren't scaring me, even though I'm still learning I'm still optomistic (and probably young and naive), but I guess that's what makes people persavere (and in the case of the less fortunate, not gifted with patience and all that other stuff, rage quit). I understand that it takes a while, when I start creating I'll, hopefully, find the reason why for myself (which is always better)
I've played games since I was very young (like most of us) and I've always wanted to create my own game. What you are saying right now, makes it seem like you haven't read more than 1 of my game ideas, I have many and even after that, I have many more that I haven't released. If the project is too hard for me, or will take very, very long with just 1 person, I'll "add someone to the team", but the fact is, the people that I know aren't exactly into coding...(the best I have is a friend who wants to do 3D modelling...).
I will use tools at my disposal, but for some stuff, I'd like to create it on my own, it might seem weird to you, it might not..but..well...yeah. (I'm not gonna use any type of game maker thingy)
I don't mind learning to code and I understand that it will take a lot longer than I originaly thought (It takes people a couple years to get "good" at a certain language, programming or not) and hey, if I fail, I'd love to work in the game industry in any way I can help, lol. (Gaming is my passion)
I kind of figured that out on my own actually, but I don't have any Idea how to do 3D rendering, I'm assuming your talking about 3D rendering, because 2D and tile based graphics don't exactly seem hard to me (in my head anyways, that may change sooner or later, feel free to correct me)
Oh...I get that feeling a lot..well not with code, but..well...yeah....it probably won't come as a big surprise to me, but who knows
And keep it simple I shall (sort of, lol)...
-----------------
Talking to you I have learned some new information, that was fun, but I also have a slight feeling that all of this isn't generally directed towards me, but to other wanna-be-coders as well.
It wasn't really about networking in general just "the disciplines" of coding you can get into, the fact they all take an inordinate amount of time to learn and even longer to perfect.
No you never said it, but most people think it, and that's what I was directing my point at, people in general. I'll be honest, I find games like Tetris and Pac-man and stuff like that completely boring, retro classics or not. I'm just more of an adventure person or an action person, arcade-puzzles were never my thing. Very few people out there thing making Pong sounds fun even if you're a great coder, so I was just putting emphasis on the fact that you should make something that will help you learn, even if it isn't fun to make it.
Well, don't copy me just to copy me, make whatever you want, I just guarantee you that if you make a Pong game start to finish, polished with all the bells and whistles: menus, sound, buttons, score tracking, game over screen/simple AI, maybe a high-score system, you'll be completely astounded at how many hours you put in even if you make a conservative guess.
It may or may not apply to you, I'm only saying it for your own good, cause, I was exactly the same way. I always read it in books and stuff and was like, "I know what to expect!" but really it's like I said, if you actually get down and write it, it's never what you expect, even as a worst case scenario. It just takes an amount of time and focus I couldn't really pin down. Keep in mind I'm talking about a Pong game, I can play a game like MW3 and try and imagine how much code is there and even then, it's hard to imagine how much code even when you've done it a lot.
It's true and not true, I think a lot of people severely overplay how "reusable" code is. Sure something like an image loader is reusable, it always does the same thing, but a lot of other pieces of code just have very different requirements from project to project. Certainly all the game logic will have to be started from scratch.
Designing is what takes forever, that and refactoring and bug fixing. Honestly even when I know what I need to write it takes forever to actually get it down, formatted, commented, test it, etc.
That's usually one of the dead giveaways to me that someone is either young or inexperienced, or both. Not saying a lot of professional programmers don't think of game makers and things as "kiddy tools" but they're just idiots. I'm a firm believer in the idealogy that if you want to make games you should MAKE GAMES. Making games does not mean being a programmer, or an artist, or anything in particular. Making games means you want to contribute to making a game, that sets what your options are.
You're a designer, obviously, but that's why I asked, do you REALLY want to learn to program? Or are you just doing it because you feel like you -have to- because I can guarentee you unless you really like programming too you're gonna get sick of spending 90% of your time writing code and 10% of it figuring out design.
The other part I asked was if you're a team leader, a lot of game designers are not team leaders, they don't neccesarily have to be, they're just that, designers. If you are a team leader, then maybe looking for people to help you would be best, or using a premade game-maker type engine, something that lets you test out your ideas without the overhead of having to code up a brand new engine. Could even use something like Unity 3d or another engine like unreal, that has scripting and keeps all the dirty internal mechanics hidden away from you.
I'm saying this because your reply made me think, "arrogant" for lack of better word, even though you're trying to appear humble. I didn't read most of your ideas, I skimmed them, ideas are ideas and I'm not looking for ideas, ideas are a dime a dozen. The point is if YOU want to make your ideas, you have to pick the method to make them, how and why. If you REALLY are okay being a programmer then go for it, but don't waste your time trying to force yourself to be one if you don't -really- want to. People like Notch could be considered designers that program, but no, Notch LOVES to program, that's the difference. He learned to program before he learned to pick games he likes, and quite honestly Notch isn't much of a designer anyway, the idea of Minecraft was a simple idea that just took off because it's so open-ended. If you had Notch designing a story based RPG or an MMO or something it'd never work out.
I wanted to make games ever since I was a kid, but for awhile I gave up on the idea. I gave up because I faced the reality of the industry: if you want to do a job you have to -really- want to do it. You have to be an audio person, a level developer, a modeler, an artist, a production person, or a designer. You have to be one of those and you have to REALLY want to work for it, the industry expects big degrees and lots of experience and the best coders in the world, and pays pretty mediocre for the experience. It isn't bad pay certainly, but it isn't very good for the industry it is.
I gave up because I know I'm not an artist or a sound guy, I tried level design and coding and I just never felt that comfortable with level development, too artsy for me. Programming was all I felt like I could do to get in, and quite honestly, it took me getting ready to get into college to decide, "could I really make it as a programmer? Do I really want to stare at code 14 hours a day for the next xx years of my life?" I decided I love making games enough that I'd have fun -just- programming them, so that's what I'm doing. College is around where you start deciding what you really want to do with your life, it's like being in egypt staring at a bunch of tables, "which task do you want to specialize in" do I want to make bricks or mine or be an artist or carry water or farm or what have you. The point where you start wondering what you'll be happy doing for a very long time, and I came up with that.
2d isn't that bad, depending on what you do, it still can be. People underestimate 2d sometimes, 2d can have lighting and particles and shaders and all kinds of fancy tricks too. That stuff does use advanced math in certain cases, 3d is just more known for it because it uses things like physics, 3d translation and the above mentioned things. Physics is a big one I forgot to mention, if you want to be a physics programmer you're in for lots of reading.
I don't mind chatting, it's all food for thought anyway, I can warn someone how dangerous skydiving is and how fun it is but I can never explain -what- it is until you flat out jump out of a plane yourself and feel it. But at least you got things to think about. Yes most of the information applies to wanna-be-coders, but you are a wanna-be-coder so of course it applies to you as well.
If you think I'm making fun of your ideas or something, I'm not, it's just like I said, ideas are dime a dozen. I'm sure 10k people had the idea for Minecraft before Notch, but look who was the only guy to go and actually code the thing, and he got rich off it. I've seen way too many flakes both professional and casual to take game ideas as anything but that, ideas, dreams, nonsense. If someone has the backing to actually MAKE a game and make it playable, then we're talking, now I'm interested!
I don't even know what to say to these strikethrough'd lines. It's just an image anyway, even if it was the earth. He could have put a pretty pony picture for the background if he wanted. It's obviously not the earth though if we want to go into geography.
The point was him asking how the menu looks for the moment.
Oh, I've been talking to some coders on the MC Forum, I've thought about programming as a carreer path and with all the research I've done with that, I've learned that there are many different disciplines of coding that you can get into, sure I don't know what I'd like to specialize into.
I never said it and I never thought pong was a boring game, but yeah, I understand "People in general", for some reason I've never thought of myself as "People in General", but every day I find more and more reasons to consider myself so.
Sure I'm not saying/thinking that making Pong will be boring, but I'm not saying/thinking making pong sounds fun, sure I can already think of ways to make it "unique" and what not, but what I consider fun is the fact of after all that hard work seeing what you've done, testing it and making it better, maybe even for the recognition of having done a good job, but I'd go through everything "not as fun", to get to the "End Game" that is fun and fix everything to make it funner.
I probably will too, even if it's close to my guess, and the more you talk about, menus, sounds, buttons, score tracking, everything you said makes it sound fun, not just the game, but the development.
Well this sounds like it's going to apply to me...sort of...I mean I'm not exactly the person to say "I know what to expect", more of "Expect the worst and I don't even know what that is". And about your last statement I completely agree with you
To be honest, that's about all I think could be reuseble and (again, also depending on the game you are making) the damaging systems will seem similar, but everything else will probably vary
I can only imagine *shutter* and I'm just assuming *shutter*
Just look at...page two was it, then find the Wacko guy and see everything else he's written (bashing game maker) and he's said he is around 12 or 13.....
I've never bashed programs like game-makers, you can make fun even awesome games with game-makers, but I'd like to go with learning a programing language, since to me, game-makers tells me it makes games, maybe it can do other things yes, but with learning to program (in general) you have somewhat of a fall back plan.
Just going on technicalities here, but you said "would you mind [...]. if no [...], do I REALLY want to learn to program? Hell (Bleep) Yes, I'm not doing it because I have to, so that I can make games, no if I wanted to make games solely, I would have probably started with game maker. I want to learn to program, get into the industry, if not getting a career in Game Development than another field which might involve programming, I wouldn't just quit.
I know making games doesn't mean being X, Y or Z, I want to contribute to making a game, yes wether it be in the office, writting about it, etc. I'd love to work on games.
People know me as shy, a follower, etc. When ever I try to get people organized IRL, it depends on how much people respect me, here I guess I could create a team, if not, then yeah, I guess I could do stuff like that (prototyping with game maker or maybe unity or unreal, but I'd want to do a bit more research about it and what not. I see the logic in your words, but I don't know if I'll follow them, I probably will in the future, it's how my life has gone for the past couple of years.
Sorry about that , I knew I was going to fail somewhere in there to try and get my feelings across and I probably was being arrogant there...again Sorry about that.
Point taken
I want to be a programmer, I want to program, maybe make games as a career, in my spare time, idk, but I want to program, I don't exactly know why, people said my father was into that kind of stuff, etc., etc. but I do know how I can do it.
...*Nods* (I can't think of anything to say to that withouth destroying it, sorry)
Yeah, I've looked for jobs in the industry, even in some Indie companies, and what I see for positions are big degrees that take a while to get and then I see stuff like "lots of experience in X field", which kind of sucks when you think of how to get lot's of experience after/during college/university, sure there are ways..but I think you understand where I'm comming from.
I don't think that programming is all I can do to get in, I haven't just looked at the programming aspects of the gaming industry, but other parts as well, the social aspects of it (I suck at doing art on the comp or anything IRL in anything other than Black and White) and then there are the designing aspects, which I have no Idea how that could work as some sort of career, but you know, I might learn.
I don't underestimate 2D games at all, I guess I underestimate how hard it is to develop, but not what they are able to do or convey or everything you can add to them, of course in the end, the complicated stuff will use advanced math. 3D sure is cool, but..not for me...not right now.
And Physics, I have toyed around with how physics works in 2d video games and every way I see it (in my head) is way to simple and therefore I tell myself that it's wrong and that I probably have a lot of stuff ahead of me. May I ask you, if you've ever dabbled in Physics Programming and if so, how did that go?
Yes, I guess it does, I'm not just a wanna-be coder I'm also oblivious at times....gotta work on that. And maybe I'll see what you mean later on.
Hey, I never thought you where making fun of my game Ideas, since you really never talked about (my logic isn't that flawed). And who knows maybe later I'll be able to have the backing (maybe myself or with a team and etc.) to create one of these games, then no one can steal my ideas from me, mwahahahahahaha....>.>....<.<......
Honestly based on your thread I thought you were set on being a designer. If you want to be a programmer that's rather different.
It's a boring game(to me anyway) but it teaches good things, it's like learning to work on cars so you change your parents oil. Not very glamorous but it helps you start learning, especially if you get some looks under the hood. It's nice talking to someone that atleast pretends to be level headed(I have no idea if you are, text is easy to fake through) most people take me saying "people in general" as some kind of sideways personal attack. Usually when I use people in general I try to include stuff I would do/have done too, not just to rag on anyone that "isn't part of the in crowd."
Well, pick a language and start coding then, deciding if coding is right for you is one of those things you make or break in the pixel mines.
It's more the fact that even I thought I wasn't one of those people but really, it's a rule that applies to everyone, you can't really know until you start trying. There's a lot of complexity to coding that just can't come up in books, all I'm saying is, you'll probably be surprised no matter what you do!
Definitely depends on the engine and the game content. There's a way to design a game to just be an engine, where you can inherit and customize everything, then there's just making an engine for your specific game, that's the problem, it isn't very reusable.
I've heard enough ignorance from people of all ages on different topics to fill a small ocean probably. People just like to think they know what they're talking about, there's so many people out there that cite like the word of the heavens that Java must suck because Minecraft is coded crappily, Notch can't possibly be at fault for that... ... can he!? Hell that's just one example in a sea.
I only made that comment again because at the bottom of your previous reply you sounded like you completely hated the idea of "game makers" but I see now that you actually want to learn to code.
Honestly if you really want to get into the game industry, you'll have to pick a profession, and work at it. There's no real "easy opening" into game dev, you have to pick a job and build a portfolio. If you want to be an artist? Hell start drawing! Programmer? Make that post-apocalyptic survival game you always wanted to, complete with terrible programmer stick figures! Sound? Time to compose soundtracks for a game(this is a REALLY good time to work on games like RPG maker or something more professional, it's so easy to apply sound to any engine).
Gamedev.net has a lot of good resources about this stuff.
Well, if you don't want a team, then you can certainly work by yourself or with some others, programming is definitely the most important part of a game, as much as that would **** off industry veterans to hear. Programmers can use crappy art and sound, artists and musicians can't use a non-existant game engine with their work. Sure they can make the work free-form, but not applied to an actual game. That's the tradeoff. It's also the reason programmers tend to be paid the most, they're the mechanics.
Generally you need college or a really good way into the industry, contacts, very good previous work, etc. Even college is just a piece of paper, you have to end up making games and have a portfolio to stand a serious chance, even if you aim for a smaller indy studio. The biggest thing game devs want is for you to prove that you can work on games without someone prompting you to, that you have fun doing it.
I'd honestly tell you to pick a profession, try them all if you must, but decide on one. Being a jack of all trades is a waste of the game industry.
3d is a big difference from 2d simply from the logistics of it. With 2d it's much easier to control movements because everything is just an x and a y, with 3d you have to use a lot of vector math and magical nonsense just to be able to figure out where something is in 3d space, that's the main issue.
Of course 2d comes in many flavors, coated in shaders or even isometric can add extra dimensions to it. But in general 2d is much simpler than 3d, and 3d obviously can feature quite a few more techniques than 2d. 3d may just be an added dimension but it allows a completely different realm of visual technology, especially as time goes on.
No i've never really worked on physics, I've read about it a bit but never really used it thus far. Physics can get complex even in 2d depending on how "realistic" you go for. It's easy to make a box slide back and forth and fall at a certain speed. It's hard to make a wheel that rolls down a hill, spinning and bouncing off every bump and even reversing direction when it hits the ground, due to the reversing motion. Heck you can even get into materials in 2d, make some rubber goop wheel that sticks to walls or sucks itself onto the ceiling, or compresses and bounces. It's a neat concept, but I'm sure it gets math heavy depending on what you want to do.
Well, it's not exactly what I envisionned it would be (the image in the background is something I'd suggest to be changed), but it's still pretty early to say anything, and it is simply a loading screen.
I guess I'm actually going to have to think of what should be added to the loading screen itself....Do you have any Ideas, ll
How?
There's a difference between being something and spending 5 minutes doing it. You aren't an artist if you draw stick figure art for games, you aren't a designer if you just throw an idea together, you aren't a modeler if you make advanced stick figures.
Being something is doing it as a career. It's possible to be a programmer and a designer by trade or a programmer and a producer, but you can't be everything at once, it just doesn't happen.
I made it a point in one of my posts, a programmer in an AAA studio can work 8-14 hours a day, sometimes during crunch periods they may do nothing short of work and sleep. How would you ever even specialize in multiple jobs like that? Impossibility.
Most game developers work absurd hours doing just THEIR job.
Oh....Well this or that, probably programmer, better job industry and fall back plans, kind of hard to create a porfolio for video game designer (the field that I'm looking for)
Well sure in the begining pong isn't very glamourus, but when you start adding stuff to it and everything else, it can become something...well at least something interesting...
Don't worry I'm not pretending to be level headed, I am one of the few that can keep my cool, I can't exactly explain why, since I'm not exactly sure, and I don't take "people in general" as some kind of subtle personal attack because..well, I explained it eariler. And also the way you use examples that you've done should stop idiots from getting a stupid counter argument
I've picked the language (Java), might learn some C++ stuff (my friend says his friend might want to teach somebody it) and I've already invested in a book for it (Java for dummies) and I follow some youtube Tutorial (some unoficial and some stuff from stanford).
True...there isn't exactly anything I can do about it either, except to try and prepare, to make it seem like I won't be surprised, lol
Yeah, if I ever make an engine, I'd attempt to make it so it's reseuable and customizable (Options for the win, I'm an Immersionist that way),
And then those same people go Derpidy, Derpidy, Derp all the way home. I never though of Minecraft codded crappily, more as I thought it was a versatile engine which can be used to create epic mods and etc. (if enough time has been put into it), but again, noob-programmer
Oh...well...yeah I think something was worked out
But to build a porfolio, you need to learn about the subject you're applying too, but in the end, that is what I'll do, or what I plan to do....
Yay, more resources...I have to start noting these down somewhere
Well, I wouldn't mind working in a team, nothing very professional at first, and then look for the future.
And yeah...as much as it pains everybody else, programming is almost essential in a game (unless you use game makers, but the problem is, if a programmer uses crappy art and crappy sound (or even no sound at all), it may hinder the game, especially with todays youth, together, they rule the world. And the people who are able to do music and program, or do art and program, or maybe all three, those guys are really lucky.
This is good to know, dually noted
May I ask why it is a waste of the gaming industry to become a jack of all trrades?
*Nods*
Yeah, that is very true.....but I'm a beginner I have an excuse, lol (Slap me if I say that again in a couple of months/years)
...Sounds like something... (I'm just immagining Pong with Physics and the ability to choose the material your paddle is made out of, lol, Rubber Paddle ). But I'd probably use an already developped Physics Library for that kind of thing (or If I feel like a challenge...)
Once again, thank you for your time
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Off Topic Randomness
You know you're too much into game modelling when you reffer to drawing as creating a static mesh...
Read gamedev, they literally talk about being a producer or a designer, there are ways to do it. Tom sloper's website is probably one of the best resources for stuff like this.
You'll probably have to learn C++ if you want an industry job, but, that varies of course, look at Mojang.
Minecraft has an extremely messy source, there's a lot of classes that are just kinda there, some of them are blank and not used. Some methods call other methods that are blank, stuff tends to get passed all around this way and that, the rendering has had a lot of improvements too, it used to be much worse. Heck Minecraft doesn't even use models, the models are hand created in the code. Never even heard of anything like that before.
As for it being modded, it's only even like that because of Java, people spend the time to keep MCP updated, which basically decompiles the source code and renames the files and functions and everything to deobfuscate it. Basically the only reason modding exists at all for the game is because the community forces it on the game in a completely illegal way.
Jack of all trades, master of none. You can't be good at everything, you're sacrificing skill in one field to spread it evenly amongst others. Even if you could manage that, imagine making a big game, you'd spend the next few years of your life doing EVERYTHING yourself, for no real reason.
Most people do use libraries, really if you write your own physics library that makes an extremely impressive tech demo for a company. There's a reason almost everyone out there uses Havok or Physx or something.
I read a bit of Gamedev, it seems interesting, so I guess I'll have to decide later, I'll look into Tom sloper's website as well...
Oh...so that's why it's so laggy....I guess that's what Optifine does (as well with other stuff)...
And sure you've never heard of models created in the code, but does that specifically means they are bad? Could you possibly explain/ellaborate on how models and what not are usually created, and then added into the code?
"in a completely illegal way" that is allowed by the maker, the developers and the studio itself. Sure it's not exactly right, it's sort of a place holder for the Modding API and what not.
Sure it might not be the best way to get it to be modded right now, but you have to egmit there are a bunch of cool mods made with it like that, withouth it's modding scene it might not be as popular as it is today.
....Then um...what about Leanoardo da vinci?...If he wasn't the master of what he practiced, then who was?
Sure you might not master anything, but when do you ever master anything? it takes, what was it 40 000 (or was it 4 000) hours of work/practice to be able to classify yourself as an expert in your field (which is a lot, unless you practice daily) and is usually only obtainable through a life time of work (again, unless you practice daily)
I'll keep that in mind, maybe I will create a cool Physics library as a tech demo one day....maybe I will....
Yeah, right, listen to yourself. I could just as easily say:
You are a plumber if you unclog your toilet.
You are a painter if you roll your bedroom walls.
You are a carpenter if assemble a desk from pieces.
You're an electrician if you fix a broken socket.
You're a mathematician if you write a formula.
Really, all of these things are things that professionals do, just that make you one? Of course not, being a professional in a field means devoting years to mastering it, you can't seriously call yourself a certain something just because you did something with it one time, that's absurd. It's like calling yourself a programmer because you wrote a calculator one time in fourth grade.
The funny thing is, even after all that terrible logic, I still haven't met anyone that has even accomplished that list of things you said.
It doesn't mean it's bad, it's just simplistic. Models are just a data format usually, they contain all the information about the polygonal makeup of an object. Basically all the vertices and such, the program is what exports the files, which can have tens of thousands of bits of data to read in just to load that single model into memory, obviously that's why modeling software was made in the first place, to create an easy way to do it and subsequently let the coder load the models easily.
In Minecraft it sort of makes sense, simply because Minecraft models are just a few boxes stuck together, little enough code to make it work. The problem is that it was very straightforward and not much thought at all. When Notch ended up having to make the Enderdragon he literally had to string like 4-5 mobs together in the code just to make it work, simply because he coded himself into a wall. Other than his code being messy and usually extremely inefficient he ends up never making anything modular or predicting what functionality he might need in the future.
I used to sit on IRC with most of the people who make those mods, never bothered me in the least. The point is that it's completely unethical that minecraft is so completely shut off from the world that the only way we were ever able to mod it was by flat out decompiling the files. People think Notch made some great stride to make the game moddable, but realistically, he didn't do a damn thing, he sat there and everyone else took the reins and MADE it work. The fact is that even though Notch doesn't consider it bad, it is illegal, it's tampering with the software. Having to do that to mod a game is pretty much unthinkable, games like the elder scrolls series flat out have API's for modding.
What about da vinci? He was a great artist and inventor, the two went hand in hand for him and he devoted pretty much his entire life to tireless study of both things, he was no jack of all trades he was a master of a few.
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I know that, I've known that for a while, it aggravates me when people (totalbiscuit) ask the "audience" in a recording on youtube, why don't game developers do stuff like that...but again, I was asking what does the public want to know about certain gaming subjects