I think it's about time I post. Throughout this post, I will be referring to the... "senior" RPers as "you", "the group", and "they". I am not pointing fingers, so it would be appreciated if we could get past that fact. What I will say will not be accusations, but my own concerns and things I have observed.
First, I should say something about the RP subsection. It shall be discussed. I am not sure how much I am allowed to say, and therefore, I will leave it at that.
Now then, I should address the whole "No, we help," "No, you bash." Note that this will only be my own opinion on the matter. I'm assuming some of you will now be dismissing my post. It has been said by you that we are finding the bad moments. It has also been said that people have seen the group help new RPers. I would like to see some sort of proof besides one's word. What I'm particularly interested in seeing is the group helping someone similar to the OP of WhiteVale. Yes, I am bringing that example up again.
You see, I am seeing a line being drawn by the group. If the member meets their expectation of "RP material" then they give helpful criticism. If they don't, I see that the member is just blown off, at the very least. But that's just my observation, don't take that too personally. And that is why I'm interested in a similar WhiteVale situation. Please, do tell.
I suppose I will address the whole "Casual" and "Advanced" RP subsections. We've been over this. All you have done is changed from the word serious. Who will define what is Casual and what is Advanced? The group. The "senior" members. Once again, the line comes into play. I have concerns that you, the group, shall pick out "good RP material" and then throw the rest into the "Casual" section. 69FoYou has brought up that "Advanced" RPs would have a thought out plot and paragraph long posts. Who will judge the plot? And if the RP is newly made, how can anyone determine by the posts? Now, I have brought this up with Absolete in the IRC chat, and since he seems fine with sharing part of it, I'll show some too. Absolete replied to this concern with:
I know myself and others would go help. I've discussed it plenty of times. With everyone I know. Er... who would be able to.
Yet this simply brings up another concern in it's place. A large chunk of this argument comes from the existence of "Casual" RPs. I apologize if I am stepping over any line by quoting this.
Quote from Absolete »
You expect me to sit back when the only thing I do all day every day is ruined and I can't do a thing about it?
Perhaps this was in a different moment. Still, this was part of the starting conversation of this whole argument. How are we supposed to trust someone to educate "Casual" RPers when he feels that "Casual" RPs ruin what he does every day? Now, that sounded like a really big accusation, and I apologize. It was not meant that way, and I wish I could rephrase it somehow. I understand that that is one individual, but I feel that the attitude is more or less shared among the group.
Quote from jumjummju »
Generally, the reason we tell people to join other RP's before making their own is not because of experience, but more because they need to learn how a real RP works.
Understandable, but as I have mentioned earlier, I am concerned that the group will not follow up on helping new members learn how to make or participate in a "real" RP.
I'm sure I've missed some points here and there, so feel free to point out whatever you feel different about or anything.
I like your spunk, but hop into a few more roleplays and get some experience before you start your own please. Perhaps you should gain moderator in an existing roleplay so you get to know how to moderate and maintain a roleplay.
I've not said casual roleplays ruin my day, please don't speak for me. I've said that they deserve chances, yes, but are annoying. I help people, albeit harshly. My day is not ruined by something that silly. If anything it makes it brighter that I've somewhat helped people and maybe even created a hard working character willing to strive to make a better roleplay.
I've not said casual roleplays ruin my day, please don't speak for me.
Now, I did mention everything I said was going to be an opinion and my own observation and thoughts, no need to get worked up about it. Nowhere did I state that it was definitely what you meant, I merely meant it as it seemed like that to me.
I've said that they deserve chances, yes, but are annoying. I help people, albeit harshly. My day is not ruined by something that silly. If anything it makes it brighter that I've somewhat helped people and maybe even created a hard working character willing to strive to make a better roleplay.
That's rather contradicting. First you say your day is ruined, but then you don't? Well, ignoring that, if you find it annoying, then that only worsens my concern about helping the "Casual" RPers. Why would you do something that you don't like if you don't necessarily have to do to keep doing your everyday activities? Also, you may have somewhat helped people and pushed them toward a diligent person, but I'm suspecting that these people are above the line I have mentioned.
Have you noticed how people usually mention you, telling the member to prepare for a lecture from you? That's not helpful. I'll admit though, that some of it is helpful, sometimes, although still harsh.
le sigh. Here you go again, bending my words. I've not once said my day has been ruined. Why do you continue down that path? I'm not enemies with you. I'm not here to fight you. I'm not even trying to say I want a serious and regular roleplay subforum anyway. A regular roleplay subforum, but not a serious subforum.
I will help people. If you think I won't, warn me if I do. Simple. We all can agree I'm not the kindest. I won't do the whole "I'M NOT PERFECT BUT I LOVE MYSELF FOR WHO I AM" thing, because it's not true. But I'm not perfect. I am harsh.
le sigh. Here you go again, bending my words. I've not once said my day has been ruined. Why do you continue down that path? I'm not enemies with you. I'm not here to fight you. I'm not even trying to say I want a serious and regular roleplay subforum anyway. A regular roleplay subforum, but not a serious subforum.
As I've already said, that was the way I interpreted it. Again, never did I say that was the definite meaning. But let's get past that. I was just using it as an example. You say you're not here to fight, yet this entire argument was quite spawned by your protest against the rules. But I digress, that's not the point. Also, I'm making myself sound retarded. Anyway, the subsection may happen, or maybe not. Is there a point in continuing on with that subject?
I will help people. If you think I won't, warn me if I do. Simple. We all can agree I'm not the kindest. I won't do the whole "I'M NOT PERFECT BUT I LOVE MYSELF FOR WHO I AM" thing, because it's not true. But I'm not perfect. I am harsh.
If you find me being harsh, warn me. Please.
Words are not always definite. We'll see. Also, I know that you're not like that. But we're really getting off topic, and I feel some points still haven't quite been addressed.
Also, at the risk of nitpicking, but I'm curious. No strings attached, no accusations, no nothing. Just a question.
1. Moderators themselves such as Neilsur and Jesonomi have come to roleplays and said, "You're inexperienced. Go participate in roleplays then come back."
2. I recall almost everyone wanting Jesonomi, AFYT, Neilsaur, any secmods or administration inside their story or roleplay.
...Why am I included here? I don't recall this at all.
What was supposed to solve some problems had created a flamewar? (Don't even try saying that it isn't one, it may or may not be differently worded, but its got all of the elements of one). Ladies and gentlemen I would like to type my very own wall of text:
First of all, to the mods.
I don't think you've been given all the thanks you deserve for putting RP in its own section, so thank you very much. The rules you've put in place are clear, simple and are a good general baseline. We'll put forward ideas when the need arises but for the most part, regulation shouldn't be too much of an issue. One thing which REALLY needs to be said is that there are no RP servers here, a lot of misled people wandering in through general seaches and the like.
Just throwing ideas around here, but bad RPs don't really come around often enough to clog a section like this and many would-be GMs in new RPs have been scared off by any form of critisism. I'm not going to deny that there are some really bad cases of not being polite (put as loosely as possible) to new forum goers to do with RPing. Maybe a rule to consider at the least is to only give 'advice' to RP's that ask for it and if an RP doesn't work, then to let it die. Much akin to the last line you've put in your opening post to this thread SpitfulFox (Having it as an official rule would probably encourage its practice a bit better).
EDIT: I've had a quick look around and there are quite a few bad RPs around with the new section and all, but they seem to be getting the picture fairly quickly.
Secondly, to fellow RP enthusiasts
The mods know how to run a forum, that's why they're mods. This shouldn't be a time to yell "You haven't done this perfectly! Why did you even try! You are all useless! RARARRA!" (I know you guys haven't said it like this, some of you are not responsible at all, but this is my interpretation. Not including the suggestions, many of which I found pretty good). This section should be built from what happens and adapting to it, I say let things roll for a little while, if there's anything that needs to be changed, we put it forward.
I agree about what was said about the quality of criticism that flows through some RPs and their subsequent explanation that it was merely criticism when, truthfully, the language was unnecessarily harsh. There is really not much more argument to it, I've seen it, you've seen it, emotions have fluctuated.
I really think that if people need help with their RPs, they need to be pointed to someone who would know, or to some information pre-written VIA PM, NOT THE THREAD. Otherwise just leave it. I don't care whether RPing is a passionate pastime of yours, or if you get frustrated with RPs that aren't great quality, you guys have been in the business for long enough to predict by now whether an RP is going to be one you enjoy so if you don't like it, just let it starve or prosper into something which proves your predictions wrong. Don't just cut it down like a diseased tree.
I might get a counter-argument saying that the quality of RPs will degrade with that kind of philosophy, but really, us RPers who prefer quality are a tight-knit community and there's a PM system to use as well for invites and such. As for loss in quality of applications to serious RPs, we get them all the time, its part of the process, get over it. If your really concerned that there will be an influx of sub-par applications to your advanced RP, go one better (like most forum sights built exclusively for RPing) and make a separate thread for applications that is linked to the actual RP thread and vice-versa. this is not spammy, this will actually promote an RP's progress without being halted every three pages or so for a discussion/tell-off about a new application for long enough for everyone to forget what they are doing.
(I understand I might have done some generalisation here, I apologise if your aren't an example of people who do this)
I don't want us to be branded as control freaks so lets all calm down our words and see how this goes. Have I missed anything out? Probably. Please let me know.
EDIT: I realise that I had missed something, this is to everyone:
Many many many people have real trouble knowing not what constructive criticism is, but how to present it. For those who do not know, it goes in three steps.
1. Tell them what you like about what the person has done.
EXAMPLE: I like the banners that you've made for this RP
2. Tell them what they could do differently.
EXAMPLE: Your rules need a bit of elaboration and this RP needs to relate to Minecraft in some way
3. End with a positive comment.
EXAMPLE: With a bit of work, this could be really fun
These three steps psychologically ensure that you aren't yelling at a naughty boy who hangs his head in shame, but an attentive person who is actually much more likely to take your advice on board then to run away and cry.
The moral of these stories? Play God, and there is a 100% chance you will be mauled to death by leopard men.
Useful tidbits: Da Roolz - Da Off Topic Specific Roolz
As I've already said, that was the way I interpreted it. Again, never did I say that was the definite meaning. But let's get past that. I was just using it as an example. You say you're not here to fight, yet this entire argument was quite spawned by your protest against the rules. But I digress, that's not the point. Also, I'm making myself sound retarded. Anyway, the subsection may happen, or maybe not. Is there a point in continuing on with that subject?
Words are not always definite. We'll see. Also, I know that you're not like that. But we're really getting off topic, and I feel some points still haven't quite been addressed.
Also, at the risk of nitpicking, but I'm curious. No strings attached, no accusations, no nothing. Just a question.
...Why am I included here? I don't recall this at all.
I Agree with the mod on this one..
I don't know How in anyway you could have 2 subforums for Rp's.
As it is We are lucky to get our own Rp Subforum
And even if we did Who would decide what is casual and What is serious? It would be maddness
It is sort of like Underlying Racism. But for Rp's ( Man. Am I gonna get crap for that comment )
Also. What I am really interested to see is how the Rp'ers from Forum Games interact with the other ones.
Anyways. 2 Rp forums is pure madness. As this is a Minecraft Forum. Not a Roleplaying Forum
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That's three mass invasions within the same bloody month! I mean, seriously! The UDTU is attacking now, Blue has a sleeper attack coming soon, and now an invasion by space pirates? What is this, Russia if every american-made FPS happened at once?! - MagicallyDwarven
The RP threads from Forum Games are being folded into this section as well, so play nice, everyone. :happy.gif:
We're not going to try and enforce some sort of "affirmative action" on this section, but if we see people saying things like "GTFO, Forum Games! You're all a bunch of idiots!" warnings WILL be issued.
Life is good as far as I'm concerned, no longer are the RPs being buried by word games/artwork.
Agreed. People should stop complaining.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That's three mass invasions within the same bloody month! I mean, seriously! The UDTU is attacking now, Blue has a sleeper attack coming soon, and now an invasion by space pirates? What is this, Russia if every american-made FPS happened at once?! - MagicallyDwarven
Actually, gameaddictwn, people here have suggested a subforum numerous times.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm always happy just 'cause there isn't a reason to be sad.
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.
Actually, gameaddictwn, people here have suggested a subforum numerous times.
Indeed, even before the whole RP wave in Fan Art. People had suggested an RP subforum a number of times in because RPs in Forum Games were quickly shoved down by the other threads.
You say "curt and not nice", and I say "blunt and to the point." "Not nice and/or mean" would have been a comment like: "YOU [censored] NOOB GO READ SOME OTHER [censored] RP's BEFORE MAKING YOUR OWN BECAUSE YOU BE NEWFAG" or something, at least in my opinion.
Then again, my opinion may be skewed due to where I started out when I first got into foruming.
I'm always happy just 'cause there isn't a reason to be sad.
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.
First, I should say something about the RP subsection. It shall be discussed. I am not sure how much I am allowed to say, and therefore, I will leave it at that.
Now then, I should address the whole "No, we help," "No, you bash." Note that this will only be my own opinion on the matter. I'm assuming some of you will now be dismissing my post. It has been said by you that we are finding the bad moments. It has also been said that people have seen the group help new RPers. I would like to see some sort of proof besides one's word. What I'm particularly interested in seeing is the group helping someone similar to the OP of WhiteVale. Yes, I am bringing that example up again.
You see, I am seeing a line being drawn by the group. If the member meets their expectation of "RP material" then they give helpful criticism. If they don't, I see that the member is just blown off, at the very least. But that's just my observation, don't take that too personally. And that is why I'm interested in a similar WhiteVale situation. Please, do tell.
I suppose I will address the whole "Casual" and "Advanced" RP subsections. We've been over this. All you have done is changed from the word serious. Who will define what is Casual and what is Advanced? The group. The "senior" members. Once again, the line comes into play. I have concerns that you, the group, shall pick out "good RP material" and then throw the rest into the "Casual" section. 69FoYou has brought up that "Advanced" RPs would have a thought out plot and paragraph long posts. Who will judge the plot? And if the RP is newly made, how can anyone determine by the posts? Now, I have brought this up with Absolete in the IRC chat, and since he seems fine with sharing part of it, I'll show some too. Absolete replied to this concern with:
Yet this simply brings up another concern in it's place. A large chunk of this argument comes from the existence of "Casual" RPs. I apologize if I am stepping over any line by quoting this.
Perhaps this was in a different moment. Still, this was part of the starting conversation of this whole argument. How are we supposed to trust someone to educate "Casual" RPers when he feels that "Casual" RPs ruin what he does every day? Now, that sounded like a really big accusation, and I apologize. It was not meant that way, and I wish I could rephrase it somehow. I understand that that is one individual, but I feel that the attitude is more or less shared among the group.
Understandable, but as I have mentioned earlier, I am concerned that the group will not follow up on helping new members learn how to make or participate in a "real" RP.
I'm sure I've missed some points here and there, so feel free to point out whatever you feel different about or anything.
This is what I meant by the line. Look at that thread. Now look back at WhiteVale: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/551135-rp-the-city-of-whitevale/
Compare the two. I'm sure the difference is obvious. The Aftermath is deemed "RP material" while WhiteVale is not.
Now, I did mention everything I said was going to be an opinion and my own observation and thoughts, no need to get worked up about it. Nowhere did I state that it was definitely what you meant, I merely meant it as it seemed like that to me.
That's rather contradicting. First you say your day is ruined, but then you don't? Well, ignoring that, if you find it annoying, then that only worsens my concern about helping the "Casual" RPers. Why would you do something that you don't like if you don't necessarily have to do to keep doing your everyday activities? Also, you may have somewhat helped people and pushed them toward a diligent person, but I'm suspecting that these people are above the line I have mentioned.
Have you noticed how people usually mention you, telling the member to prepare for a lecture from you? That's not helpful. I'll admit though, that some of it is helpful, sometimes, although still harsh.
I will help people. If you think I won't, warn me if I do. Simple. We all can agree I'm not the kindest. I won't do the whole "I'M NOT PERFECT BUT I LOVE MYSELF FOR WHO I AM" thing, because it's not true. But I'm not perfect. I am harsh.
If you find me being harsh, warn me. Please.
As I've already said, that was the way I interpreted it. Again, never did I say that was the definite meaning. But let's get past that. I was just using it as an example. You say you're not here to fight, yet this entire argument was quite spawned by your protest against the rules. But I digress, that's not the point. Also, I'm making myself sound retarded. Anyway, the subsection may happen, or maybe not. Is there a point in continuing on with that subject?
Words are not always definite. We'll see. Also, I know that you're not like that. But we're really getting off topic, and I feel some points still haven't quite been addressed.
Also, at the risk of nitpicking, but I'm curious. No strings attached, no accusations, no nothing. Just a question.
...Why am I included here? I don't recall this at all.
But people do want secmods in their roleplay. Especially people like you and Neilsaur.
Jesonomi, I see you are a moderator now.
EDIT: HERP DERP DERP DERP. This has been discussed. Sorry.
My Clan:
[simg]http://i.imgur.com/h1Atq.gif[/simg]
My stories:(1)
[simg]http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j357/Nguyeninja/6kftusig.jpg?t=1295835928[/simg]
Oh god oh god Oh god oh god. *Politics overdose*
What was supposed to solve some problems had created a flamewar? (Don't even try saying that it isn't one, it may or may not be differently worded, but its got all of the elements of one). Ladies and gentlemen I would like to type my very own wall of text:
First of all, to the mods.
I don't think you've been given all the thanks you deserve for putting RP in its own section, so thank you very much. The rules you've put in place are clear, simple and are a good general baseline. We'll put forward ideas when the need arises but for the most part, regulation shouldn't be too much of an issue. One thing which REALLY needs to be said is that there are no RP servers here, a lot of misled people wandering in through general seaches and the like.
Just throwing ideas around here, but bad RPs don't really come around often enough to clog a section like this and many would-be GMs in new RPs have been scared off by any form of critisism. I'm not going to deny that there are some really bad cases of not being polite (put as loosely as possible) to new forum goers to do with RPing. Maybe a rule to consider at the least is to only give 'advice' to RP's that ask for it and if an RP doesn't work, then to let it die. Much akin to the last line you've put in your opening post to this thread SpitfulFox (Having it as an official rule would probably encourage its practice a bit better).
EDIT: I've had a quick look around and there are quite a few bad RPs around with the new section and all, but they seem to be getting the picture fairly quickly.
Secondly, to fellow RP enthusiasts
The mods know how to run a forum, that's why they're mods. This shouldn't be a time to yell "You haven't done this perfectly! Why did you even try! You are all useless! RARARRA!" (I know you guys haven't said it like this, some of you are not responsible at all, but this is my interpretation. Not including the suggestions, many of which I found pretty good). This section should be built from what happens and adapting to it, I say let things roll for a little while, if there's anything that needs to be changed, we put it forward.
I agree about what was said about the quality of criticism that flows through some RPs and their subsequent explanation that it was merely criticism when, truthfully, the language was unnecessarily harsh. There is really not much more argument to it, I've seen it, you've seen it, emotions have fluctuated.
I really think that if people need help with their RPs, they need to be pointed to someone who would know, or to some information pre-written VIA PM, NOT THE THREAD. Otherwise just leave it. I don't care whether RPing is a passionate pastime of yours, or if you get frustrated with RPs that aren't great quality, you guys have been in the business for long enough to predict by now whether an RP is going to be one you enjoy so if you don't like it, just let it starve or prosper into something which proves your predictions wrong. Don't just cut it down like a diseased tree.
I might get a counter-argument saying that the quality of RPs will degrade with that kind of philosophy, but really, us RPers who prefer quality are a tight-knit community and there's a PM system to use as well for invites and such. As for loss in quality of applications to serious RPs, we get them all the time, its part of the process, get over it. If your really concerned that there will be an influx of sub-par applications to your advanced RP, go one better (like most forum sights built exclusively for RPing) and make a separate thread for applications that is linked to the actual RP thread and vice-versa. this is not spammy, this will actually promote an RP's progress without being halted every three pages or so for a discussion/tell-off about a new application for long enough for everyone to forget what they are doing.
(I understand I might have done some generalisation here, I apologise if your aren't an example of people who do this)
I don't want us to be branded as control freaks so lets all calm down our words and see how this goes. Have I missed anything out? Probably. Please let me know.
EDIT: I realise that I had missed something, this is to everyone:
Many many many people have real trouble knowing not what constructive criticism is, but how to present it. For those who do not know, it goes in three steps.
1. Tell them what you like about what the person has done.
EXAMPLE: I like the banners that you've made for this RP
2. Tell them what they could do differently.
EXAMPLE: Your rules need a bit of elaboration and this RP needs to relate to Minecraft in some way
3. End with a positive comment.
EXAMPLE: With a bit of work, this could be really fun
These three steps psychologically ensure that you aren't yelling at a naughty boy who hangs his head in shame, but an attentive person who is actually much more likely to take your advice on board then to run away and cry.
Useful tidbits: Da Roolz - Da Off Topic Specific Roolz
I Agree with the mod on this one..
I don't know How in anyway you could have 2 subforums for Rp's.
As it is We are lucky to get our own Rp Subforum
And even if we did Who would decide what is casual and What is serious? It would be maddness
It is sort of like Underlying Racism. But for Rp's ( Man. Am I gonna get crap for that comment )
Also. What I am really interested to see is how the Rp'ers from Forum Games interact with the other ones.
Anyways. 2 Rp forums is pure madness. As this is a Minecraft Forum. Not a Roleplaying Forum
We're not going to try and enforce some sort of "affirmative action" on this section, but if we see people saying things like "GTFO, Forum Games! You're all a bunch of idiots!" warnings WILL be issued.
Agreed. People should stop complaining.
It's pics not dics
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.
Indeed, even before the whole RP wave in Fan Art. People had suggested an RP subforum a number of times in because RPs in Forum Games were quickly shoved down by the other threads.
Although I shuck at giving advice, I'm trying .-.
Then again, my opinion may be skewed due to where I started out when I first got into foruming.
Don't take this as there is nothing that could cause sadness. I just mean it's pointless to dwell on it. I mean, depression is so boring.