That prototype is still in the progress of being built. Figured out the portal activation, but not a code mechanism. After that, it should be a matter of putting it all together.
There might be another problem though: Enderman can move all blocks. That seems to include bedrock. In other words, given enough time, Enderman will simply tear our vault down. :dry.gif: I hope this is fixed in 1.8, as having a vault that will simply be torn down by the game it self, is anything but unbreakable.
Regards,
Korot
Yeah, if they don't fix that, it is impossible to have a secure vault. Any anti-enderman defenses coulds be countered by a player.
Though in practice, a couple of extra bedrock layers and occasional maintentence by a creative-mode admin would make that vulnerabiliy very slight, esp if there is a water layer inside. Endermen removes a block, causes a spill, thereby melting the enderman, guarding the weak poitn against further endermen, and making the flaw highly visible for the admin. an intruder would have to wait for an enderman to remove a block,use that opening to clear out the water there, and then have another enderman assualt the same location repeatedly. It does violate the strict "unbreakable" aspect of the challenge, but in practice that is not a feasible attack.
However, I really doubt they will be able to move bedrock in the final version.
Another thing to note: creative mode admins can access the vault for repairs now, even through bedrock. This is either really good or really bad. It could be good, since we don't have to allow other access methods to fix potential greifing to break the vault. One of my designs included a sizeable obsidian pluf bypassing outer defenses so an attack that destroyed a portal wouldn't render the entire thing inaccessable. That would be unneccary now. However, if it proves possible for clients (hacked or otherwise) to grant creative mode privleges to the player, then the vault is vulnerable.
Of course, a person with creative mode powers has no reason to steal from the vault, only to destroy the resources.
I'm thinking something like a long lava tunnel, which is filled in from the sides by lava source blocks. It would be something like 2 high and 7 wide, with a 2 high by 1 wide entrance. You have lava sources to the sides, and flood gates of sticky pistons with brick blocks attached which point up and down (one set for the top layer of lava sources and one set for the bottom)
At the end of this would be a sticky piston door with brick blocks. Close the lava flood gates and the door opens, making a safe path.
Use brick because I had tested earlier that even with a diamond pick and diamond armor, you cannot survive long enough to break it while in lava.
If the tunnel is 2 high with 1 wide entrance, they should not be able to place blocks to block the lava sources without also blocking themselves out.
I'm not sure what flaws this has but it's just an idea.
Edit: or better yet, make it so the floor and ceiling of the tunnel become lava as well so that signs can't be placed? They would have to build off of the inside of the tunnel which means they'd have to actually be in it and therefore be in the lava to get access to an attachable surface.
No that doesn't work either since they could drop sand in the lava on the floor. :dry.gif:
The Korot is implementing some secondary features to the design to protect against time-sensitive vulnerabilities (described by apophys's post here), such as logging on just after the user enters the vault, then following their path into the vault in the narrow window of time in which the entrance is unlocked.
All time-insensitive methods should already be guarded against, meaning a single griefer/intruder will not be able to create a meaningful breach in the absence of someone who knows the code.
I'm actually honestly surprised you hadn't seen my prototype yet. For some reason I thought I remembered seeing you reply to it, but looking back I see that's not the case. Since you were the only other person to come close to building an effective design, I look forward to your input and criticism. Thanks for the combination lock design too, btw!
Even if the whole thing is made of bedrock the problem is the door can't be bedrock. Thus it can be destroyed. The only ways i can think of to make the door indestructible are:
1) put it under water so the thief drowns
2) use an indestructible block like flowing lava as a door
3) a combination of both
so then the problem is the thief can just place a block to block the flow of lava or water and still break the door. Also remember that with the advent of pistons its easier to break an iron door. And in fact that means even the lava/water methods are ineffective because one push of a piston (or pull of a sticky piston) can destroy any door instantly.
So that leaves us with: other methods of entering the vault.
1) falling
it is very difficult to place a block or destroy a block while falling. So now the question is, how do you restrict access to the vault in a foolproof way? A piston-triggered flow of lava could block the entrance, and if you enter the right code the lava would be removed. On second thought this could be circumvented with water and ladders.
2) nether portals
This might be promising since destroying a nether portal does not allow you access. What I'm seeing is a giant bedrock-walled room in the nether filled with nether portals, and a similar room in the overworld. All the nether portals except one lead to a little chamber within the overworld room filled with lava, and only the vault owner knows which one is the right one. This is also great because it involves a room entirely encase in bedrock. It does mean you have to basically wall off the entire floor to ceiling space within the nether or else people could just make portals above or below the code room. Although they would still need to know the "code", so this may be the most secure method, but it doesn't allow for putting a bunch of them close together though.
If only there was a way to activate a nether portal remotely, then this could be done for real.
My 2 cents.
Edit: sorry if this has been discussed already, I didn't feel like going through 80 pages of thread.
Edit2: In fact I think my design is the simplest for the amount of security it offers. The key thing is knowing which portal to go through, which is essentially the same as needing a code. No complicated redstone mechanisms or weird automatic portal lighting necessary.
I'd like to point out that havign to guess which portal to go through is in no way anywhere near as secure as a code. Even a 8 digit binary code has over a hundred possbilities. Making a hundred portals would be infeasible. A 16 digit code would far exceed your capaccity to mimic with dummy portals.
you could for example fill a 50x50 space with portal squares using the map editor. That's 2500 possibilities. Each one is eight squares apart in the real world, space enough for the lava killing network.
I did realize one major flaw of this in that a griefer could use an x-ray pack to see where the correct room was and thus find the correct coordinates in the nether.
Your system is more secure than that, in that even if they know exactly where it is they still can't get in. So kudos! Keep up the good work.
If only there was a better (faster) way of lighting portals.
I have come up with a slight improvement to the portal system in the vault; the addition of a "portal is active" light! That way you know exactly when you should go through that other portal. Here is a video showing the system at work:
It tries to push a block into the space where the portal should be, and if the block doesn't move then the system assumes the portal is on, and the light is lit. Otherwise, the pulsing signal caused by moving the block in and out of the way of a repeater signifies that the portal is off.
my redstone skills are rubbish, but what about some sort of vault that has a lock and stuff, but for the walls, they are made of obsidian or cobble, and within the walls there is a water/lava set up that regenerates the cobble/obsidian when it is broken?
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or variatons thereof, the theory is that even with a diamond pick you won't be able to keep yourself alive inside the wall of moving cobble, because you'll have cobble moving towards you from 2 or 3 directions
O is open space, B is bedrock, T is minecart track, C is a chest. Everything is 1 tall except for the vault area.
This way, you come in the top. You enter the code and flip a switch. If you get it right, the track switches to the right so that you go off towards the chest. If you get it wrong, you continue straight to the open space at the end, where if you get out you die, but if you don't get out you can't move because the minecart is stuck on the open space with no track, and it has no way of propulsion. The vault area is the only place that is 2 tall, and it's kept small so that a nether portal can't get in. When you're done, you push the cart back out, then flip the switch back again so that the minecart track flips back straight. The only problem would be having some way of getting rid of the minecart in the O space after somebody tries and fails to get in.
Note: The picture is a bit off because the letters don't line up perfectly.
First of all: see that button in the editor with a smiley face? The one with the mouse over that reads 'Emoticons'? Click on it, and look in the sub-menu that appears. You can use those images to 'create' MC images. Is a lot more easier to understand than a bunch of letters. (By lack of a thumbs-up emoticon)
And now about your idea: sadly, it has been used before. And as you say, the stacking of minecarts at the end could easily enable a thief to get enough carts inside, to jam up the 'failure' track, and therefore allow him access to the inner vault, and thus to your goods.
Regards,
Korot
Sorry, I tried to use it, but I couldn't find any minecart track ones. I expected it probably had been used before, but I didn't have time to search through the 81 pages. :tongue.gif: Of course, one possibility is to have a long drop instead of just an open space. It could even open into a large cavern at the end. Although in theory you could still jam it up with carts, at the least it would take a while, and the amount of iron required for all those carts would far outweigh the average value of what was stored in the vault.
Create a suitably large number of bedrock enclosed chambers with 2 portals in them to make a binary maze. As teleportation through a portal takes 6 seconds or so, solving the maze by trial and error could easily take over your 40 gameplay hour requirement, especially if the false path continued for several steps before terminating. Of course, the vault could be griefed without too much difficulty, but the final room could never be reached without the proper binary code or enough time to brute force the password-- which would work on any vault of your specifications.
EDIT: After re-reading your specifications, I realize this does not include a redstone combination, but its functional equivalent. Whether or not this is acceptable to your purist challenge notions or not, I don't know, but it does complete the end result you are in pursuit of, and will not lag the server with needless redstone circuitry.
Just a proof of concept:
The middle minecart could also be a gravel stack, like the first, so the only thing griefers could do is land on that first piston.
There is a gravel refill at the back which could be inside or outside the vault.
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Curse PremiumYeah, if they don't fix that, it is impossible to have a secure vault. Any anti-enderman defenses coulds be countered by a player.
Though in practice, a couple of extra bedrock layers and occasional maintentence by a creative-mode admin would make that vulnerabiliy very slight, esp if there is a water layer inside. Endermen removes a block, causes a spill, thereby melting the enderman, guarding the weak poitn against further endermen, and making the flaw highly visible for the admin. an intruder would have to wait for an enderman to remove a block,use that opening to clear out the water there, and then have another enderman assualt the same location repeatedly. It does violate the strict "unbreakable" aspect of the challenge, but in practice that is not a feasible attack.
However, I really doubt they will be able to move bedrock in the final version.
Another thing to note: creative mode admins can access the vault for repairs now, even through bedrock. This is either really good or really bad. It could be good, since we don't have to allow other access methods to fix potential greifing to break the vault. One of my designs included a sizeable obsidian pluf bypassing outer defenses so an attack that destroyed a portal wouldn't render the entire thing inaccessable. That would be unneccary now. However, if it proves possible for clients (hacked or otherwise) to grant creative mode privleges to the player, then the vault is vulnerable.
Of course, a person with creative mode powers has no reason to steal from the vault, only to destroy the resources.
At the end of this would be a sticky piston door with brick blocks. Close the lava flood gates and the door opens, making a safe path.
Use brick because I had tested earlier that even with a diamond pick and diamond armor, you cannot survive long enough to break it while in lava.
If the tunnel is 2 high with 1 wide entrance, they should not be able to place blocks to block the lava sources without also blocking themselves out.
I'm not sure what flaws this has but it's just an idea.
Edit: or better yet, make it so the floor and ceiling of the tunnel become lava as well so that signs can't be placed? They would have to build off of the inside of the tunnel which means they'd have to actually be in it and therefore be in the lava to get access to an attachable surface.
No that doesn't work either since they could drop sand in the lava on the floor. :dry.gif:
My most recent version is at post #1395.
The Korot is implementing some secondary features to the design to protect against time-sensitive vulnerabilities (described by apophys's post here), such as logging on just after the user enters the vault, then following their path into the vault in the narrow window of time in which the entrance is unlocked.
All time-insensitive methods should already be guarded against, meaning a single griefer/intruder will not be able to create a meaningful breach in the absence of someone who knows the code.
I'm actually honestly surprised you hadn't seen my prototype yet. For some reason I thought I remembered seeing you reply to it, but looking back I see that's not the case. Since you were the only other person to come close to building an effective design, I look forward to your input and criticism. Thanks for the combination lock design too, btw!
1) put it under water so the thief drowns
2) use an indestructible block like flowing lava as a door
3) a combination of both
so then the problem is the thief can just place a block to block the flow of lava or water and still break the door. Also remember that with the advent of pistons its easier to break an iron door. And in fact that means even the lava/water methods are ineffective because one push of a piston (or pull of a sticky piston) can destroy any door instantly.
So that leaves us with: other methods of entering the vault.
1) falling
it is very difficult to place a block or destroy a block while falling. So now the question is, how do you restrict access to the vault in a foolproof way? A piston-triggered flow of lava could block the entrance, and if you enter the right code the lava would be removed. On second thought this could be circumvented with water and ladders.
2) nether portals
This might be promising since destroying a nether portal does not allow you access. What I'm seeing is a giant bedrock-walled room in the nether filled with nether portals, and a similar room in the overworld. All the nether portals except one lead to a little chamber within the overworld room filled with lava, and only the vault owner knows which one is the right one. This is also great because it involves a room entirely encase in bedrock. It does mean you have to basically wall off the entire floor to ceiling space within the nether or else people could just make portals above or below the code room. Although they would still need to know the "code", so this may be the most secure method, but it doesn't allow for putting a bunch of them close together though.
If only there was a way to activate a nether portal remotely, then this could be done for real.
My 2 cents.
Edit: sorry if this has been discussed already, I didn't feel like going through 80 pages of thread.
Edit2: In fact I think my design is the simplest for the amount of security it offers. The key thing is knowing which portal to go through, which is essentially the same as needing a code. No complicated redstone mechanisms or weird automatic portal lighting necessary.
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Curse PremiumI did realize one major flaw of this in that a griefer could use an x-ray pack to see where the correct room was and thus find the correct coordinates in the nether.
Your system is more secure than that, in that even if they know exactly where it is they still can't get in. So kudos! Keep up the good work.
If only there was a better (faster) way of lighting portals.
It tries to push a block into the space where the portal should be, and if the block doesn't move then the system assumes the portal is on, and the light is lit. Otherwise, the pulsing signal caused by moving the block in and out of the way of a repeater signifies that the portal is off.
like this, only with another set of cobble arriving from above/below
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
or variatons thereof, the theory is that even with a diamond pick you won't be able to keep yourself alive inside the wall of moving cobble, because you'll have cobble moving towards you from 2 or 3 directions
OOOOOOOTOO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOBBBBBTBO
OOBCOTTTBO
OOBBBBBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBTBO
OOOOOOBOBO
OOOOOOBBBO
O is open space, B is bedrock, T is minecart track, C is a chest. Everything is 1 tall except for the vault area.
This way, you come in the top. You enter the code and flip a switch. If you get it right, the track switches to the right so that you go off towards the chest. If you get it wrong, you continue straight to the open space at the end, where if you get out you die, but if you don't get out you can't move because the minecart is stuck on the open space with no track, and it has no way of propulsion. The vault area is the only place that is 2 tall, and it's kept small so that a nether portal can't get in. When you're done, you push the cart back out, then flip the switch back again so that the minecart track flips back straight. The only problem would be having some way of getting rid of the minecart in the O space after somebody tries and fails to get in.
Note: The picture is a bit off because the letters don't line up perfectly.
2. Put obsidian vault in middle of ocean.
3. Set faction home in Vault.
Not that hard.
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Curse PremiumThat is not even close to meeting the requirements.
Sorry, I tried to use it, but I couldn't find any minecart track ones. I expected it probably had been used before, but I didn't have time to search through the 81 pages. :tongue.gif: Of course, one possibility is to have a long drop instead of just an open space. It could even open into a large cavern at the end. Although in theory you could still jam it up with carts, at the least it would take a while, and the amount of iron required for all those carts would far outweigh the average value of what was stored in the vault.
EDIT: After re-reading your specifications, I realize this does not include a redstone combination, but its functional equivalent. Whether or not this is acceptable to your purist challenge notions or not, I don't know, but it does complete the end result you are in pursuit of, and will not lag the server with needless redstone circuitry.