To counter the sand-filled hallway
You enter the nether, dig it out, fill in in behind you, and leave a gap.
To counter this, you would have to clear out the hallway before entering the code to insure there is no gap
To counter that, you burry yourself in sand before logging out
to counter that, you have to fill the hallway with sand again after checking it
This includes having the nether gats deactivated and filled with sand,otherwise I am pretty sure you could log back in while standing on a portal block, since it's not solid.
to make this easier, you only have a layer of sand, and a 2 high hallway (forget about the athssetics of making the hallway match the portal, we are desiging for function here!). The single layer of sand would leave a single block gap. Unless I am mistaken on how this works, that gap is not enough to log in on,so you still get shunted out of the passage. However, you can still see over the blocks to verify there are no gaps when you check. The portal in is a place they could log in at, but they would still have to mine trough all the sand before reaching the portal, which should leave time for you to get back to the hallway, and see the intruder, and hence request a ban for extrordinarily suspicious behavior. log in sniping outside of portal A would be easily visible, and hence lead to a ban.
This leaves the case of login at the portal(since it has to be clear when the player goes through), and then travelling into the vault as the player leaves. With this in mind, the logout exit would probably be better. However, you will have to return to the nether hallway to reset the sand afterwards.
Enter A, exit B. Clear out sand from the hallway, then replace it behind you as you go. Replace the last two blocks as you hop into portal C. Alt-F4 out of the server (you can't pull up the ESC menu while entering a portal, but you can force the disconnect). When you log back in, you're in C's frame, though you won't be "entering" the portal when you log in. Just mine two blocks of sand next to C, step out of frame, then back in. Successful log-in intrusion enabled.
As far as I can tell, this method is only as effective as two blocks of barrier, since that is all you need to mine through while time is important.
If you your computer isn't horribly slow (i.e. loads the nether in less than 30s) you could use obsidian blocks to cover the entrance to C, forcing an intruder to mine in the B/C hallway at least 30s before being able to enter the vault. Since you load the nether faster than that, you'll see anyone trying to break in after you enter the code. Bonus points: If it takes you less than 30s round trip to enter the nether, recognize the presence of an intruder, re-enter the overworld and hit the "lock" button on the vault, you can even preserve the security of your vault if you discover an intruder while entering.
I think if the user plugs up the entrance to C as they travel through to D, that leaves only one miniscule moment of vulnerability: the intruder logging in just as the user breaks the second obsidian block that is plugging up C. The intruder logs in, jumps into the space just cleared by the user, then jumps back into C and exits into D before the user can follow or return to A to lock the vault. It's such a close encounter though that the user will have a chance to try and kill the intruder before they completely enter C, and if they can't they will definitely be able to report the name to an admin.
Apophys is correct; his/her design is the best so far, and since the vault we have in testing is basically unbreakable, I don't think we need to change the main concept this late.
Apophys is correct; his/her design is the best so far, and since the vault we have in testing is basically unbreakable, I don't think we need to change the main concept this late.
I still consider apophys's concept the "solution", even though I have no plans to implement it. Mechanically there is nothing different about his concept that we would need to test. If my prototype works as designed, we can be guaranteed that a prototype built on apophys's concept would work properly too.
If the goal of this thread is to think of the perfect unbreakable vault, then we've already succeeded I think (pending any discovered vulnerability in the remotely-activated portal entry system). If the goal is to build the perfect unbreakable vault, then we'll succeed as soon as anyone gets motivated enough to put it together. That person won't be me though. What I built should work in virtually any practical application on an SMP server and anyone who wants to copy-paste a schematic of it into their world for actual use is totally free to do so. I think that's really the point of this thread.
There is a new way to break into vaults now using redstone repeaters. See this video for details.
I'm not sure whether this works to fall through any number of solid blocks, but if it does, any vault we build will now require a single layer of air in the ceiling.
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Layer 0
Something like that. Anyone think this method of falling through the floor can introduce any security flaws even with a dummy layer of air which the player will fall into, and then subsequently suffocate?
Edit: This technique for breaking into vaults also works with trapdoors instead of repeaters. And obviously, this method also works to get you falling into the void if for some reason you want to fall into the void.
This has been tested to work on SMP servers by multiple people on multiple servers (as evidenced by the replies to the video).
There is a new way to break into vaults now using redstone repeaters. See this video for details.
I'm not sure whether this works to fall through any number of solid blocks, but if it does, any vault we build will now require a single layer of air in the ceiling.
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Layer 0
Something like that. Anyone think this method of falling through the floor can introduce any security flaws even with a dummy layer of air which the player will fall into, and then subsequently suffocate?
i gonna use this to get through the bedrock at the bottom of the map.
That is troubling. Someone needs to test the effectiveness of the air layer. Since the glitch requires a block 2 above the land, it may work, regardless of suffocation, but I am not extremely familiar with every glitch that could be employed.
So we can all agree that we have in fact created the Unbreakable Vault, and now someone just needs to build it?
I'm sure someone will come along, look at Krackor's Prototype and mesh it with Apophys's Double-Vault idea, and use it for SMP. The goal is done, and it only took us 73 pages.
Just finished putting some of the missing security measures on my prototype. It should be immune to intrusion now, except for time-sensitive intrusion. Basically, as long as the user is the only one online when he accesses the vault, it is perfectly secure.
I'd need to add some extra features to make it completely intrusion proof, like Mystify's presence-sensitive redstone circuit and apophys's double-vault design. I don't have the smallest shred of desire to actually implement those features, even though they would be required for the thread-satisfying design, so if anyone wants to add them be my guest.
Thanks to Grizdale for the combination lock design. If anyone knows of a more compact or higher bit-count design to use instead, that might be nice to have. As labeled in my prototype, the combination is '453244'. The '1' is the "lock" button and is hooked up directly to the portal control circuit, bypassing the combination lock circuit. Assuming you can figure out that '1' isn't part of the combination lock, there are 4^6 possible ways to enter a consecutive 6-digit number, but only one of those is correct, so the odds of guessing the code are 4096:1. Not exactly astronomical, so it would be nice to improve this design.
I'm most worried about boat phasing and portal entry attacks. I'm less concerned about time-sensitive breaches of the first layer of defense (the obsidian/minecart locking doorway). If you want to help me test this, try to phase into the inner vault, or into the nether bedrock chamber using boats. Or you could try building portals at various locations around either the overworld or nether enclosures to see if you can get somewhere you're not supposed to. (I added dummy portals encased in bedrock in both the nether and overworld, so hopefully it's impossible to do so.) Finally, I need people with fast fingers to test how long it takes to breach the obsidian/minecart doorway to set our minimum time for the user to enter his vault after keying in the code.
Even with bedrock, there will never be a totally unbreakable vault. Assuming of course glitches, mods and hacks aren't involved, there's still the factor of the maker of the vault needing a way in. If you can get in, then no matter how tightly you lock it, anyone, with enough effort, can get in too.
Although, I would love to see a working example of an unbreakable vault, if I'm proven wrong.
Woa, that's amazing. I'll download the map and take a look. I don't know a lot about boat phasing, but glad there finally is a working prototype.
Thats an interesting glitch, although it probably could be easily fixed. Once the core concept is done, the whole thing can be surrounded with bedrock all the way to the top of the world, just for good measure too, with air spaces in between.
Now the only question is, what glitches will 1.8 and 1.9 bring?
That is the problem with trying to utilize or defend against glitches. At any time, your entire scheme can be rendered moot.
Again, can you explain why you think boat phasing isn't possible into your entrance? What is stopping someone from phasing diagonally up and one block east, then employing any flavor of upward phasing (boats/logout) to enter the vault?
[edit] Yeah, I'm really confused what you mean when you say it's boat phase-resistant. I have never boat phased before and I was able to use boats to get one block past the piston in less than 5 minutes of trial and error. I wasn't able to get out of the boat without single player commands ('ride'), but I imagine logging out/in in SMP would put me in the nearest open space above the boat (which is safely inside the vault).
Pics please. I need to know where the weak point is. I don't believe it changes your location if you are riding something.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey buddy I'm an engineer. That means I solve problems.
Pics please. I need to know where the weak point is. I don't believe it changes your location if you are riding something.
I place a boat inside the wall such that its center is past the x/z coordinates of the piston. Part of it sticks out of the wall to make it still clickable/rideable.
Once inside the boat, I use the "Single Player Commands" command "ride" to exit the boat. The only actions I've taken between the two images is 1) right click the boat to enter and 2) dismount.
I don't know if there is an action equivalent to the "ride" SPC command that you can do without mods. Maybe logging in/out would spawn you outside of the boat?
Thats an interesting glitch, although it probably could be easily fixed. Once the core concept is done, the whole thing can be surrounded with bedrock all the way to the top of the world, just for good measure too, with air spaces in between.
Bedrock to the top of the world won't work, because you can still get on top of it from any direction outside.
Would it be possible to just make a big room with bedrock walls on every side, and just have a nether portal be the only way in? Just hide it deep in the nether... 40 hrs of game time to find a portal in the whole nether? good luck.
Besides, because of the space contraction property of the nether, knowing the approximate location of the overworld portal tells you where the entrance portal is in the nether more precisely by a factor of 8. It would be trivially easy to find the portal in the nether.
You enter the nether, dig it out, fill in in behind you, and leave a gap.
To counter this, you would have to clear out the hallway before entering the code to insure there is no gap
To counter that, you burry yourself in sand before logging out
to counter that, you have to fill the hallway with sand again after checking it
This includes having the nether gats deactivated and filled with sand,otherwise I am pretty sure you could log back in while standing on a portal block, since it's not solid.
to make this easier, you only have a layer of sand, and a 2 high hallway (forget about the athssetics of making the hallway match the portal, we are desiging for function here!). The single layer of sand would leave a single block gap. Unless I am mistaken on how this works, that gap is not enough to log in on,so you still get shunted out of the passage. However, you can still see over the blocks to verify there are no gaps when you check. The portal in is a place they could log in at, but they would still have to mine trough all the sand before reaching the portal, which should leave time for you to get back to the hallway, and see the intruder, and hence request a ban for extrordinarily suspicious behavior. log in sniping outside of portal A would be easily visible, and hence lead to a ban.
This leaves the case of login at the portal(since it has to be clear when the player goes through), and then travelling into the vault as the player leaves. With this in mind, the logout exit would probably be better. However, you will have to return to the nether hallway to reset the sand afterwards.
As far as I can tell, this method is only as effective as two blocks of barrier, since that is all you need to mine through while time is important.
If you your computer isn't horribly slow (i.e. loads the nether in less than 30s) you could use obsidian blocks to cover the entrance to C, forcing an intruder to mine in the B/C hallway at least 30s before being able to enter the vault. Since you load the nether faster than that, you'll see anyone trying to break in after you enter the code. Bonus points: If it takes you less than 30s round trip to enter the nether, recognize the presence of an intruder, re-enter the overworld and hit the "lock" button on the vault, you can even preserve the security of your vault if you discover an intruder while entering.
I think if the user plugs up the entrance to C as they travel through to D, that leaves only one miniscule moment of vulnerability: the intruder logging in just as the user breaks the second obsidian block that is plugging up C. The intruder logs in, jumps into the space just cleared by the user, then jumps back into C and exits into D before the user can follow or return to A to lock the vault. It's such a close encounter though that the user will have a chance to try and kill the intruder before they completely enter C, and if they can't they will definitely be able to report the name to an admin.
It's a very good idea, but (as Krackor explained) it's not fully airtight, and my double-vault system is.
Link to the concept.
I still consider apophys's concept the "solution", even though I have no plans to implement it. Mechanically there is nothing different about his concept that we would need to test. If my prototype works as designed, we can be guaranteed that a prototype built on apophys's concept would work properly too.
If the goal of this thread is to think of the perfect unbreakable vault, then we've already succeeded I think (pending any discovered vulnerability in the remotely-activated portal entry system). If the goal is to build the perfect unbreakable vault, then we'll succeed as soon as anyone gets motivated enough to put it together. That person won't be me though. What I built should work in virtually any practical application on an SMP server and anyone who wants to copy-paste a schematic of it into their world for actual use is totally free to do so. I think that's really the point of this thread.
I'm not sure whether this works to fall through any number of solid blocks, but if it does, any vault we build will now require a single layer of air in the ceiling.
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Actual vault in here, max 3 high to prevent new portals
<-- Layer 0
Something like that. Anyone think this method of falling through the floor can introduce any security flaws even with a dummy layer of air which the player will fall into, and then subsequently suffocate?
Edit: This technique for breaking into vaults also works with trapdoors instead of repeaters. And obviously, this method also works to get you falling into the void if for some reason you want to fall into the void.
This has been tested to work on SMP servers by multiple people on multiple servers (as evidenced by the replies to the video).
i gonna use this to get through the bedrock at the bottom of the map.
So we can all agree that we have in fact created the Unbreakable Vault, and now someone just needs to build it?
I'm sure someone will come along, look at Krackor's Prototype and mesh it with Apophys's Double-Vault idea, and use it for SMP. The goal is done, and it only took us 73 pages.
Way to rain on this parade LOL!
That is the problem with trying to utilize or defend against glitches. At any time, your entire scheme can be rendered moot.
Pics please. I need to know where the weak point is. I don't believe it changes your location if you are riding something.
Hey buddy I'm an engineer. That means I solve problems.
Author of the Infused Creatures addon for Thaumcraft.
I place a boat inside the wall such that its center is past the x/z coordinates of the piston. Part of it sticks out of the wall to make it still clickable/rideable.
Once inside the boat, I use the "Single Player Commands" command "ride" to exit the boat. The only actions I've taken between the two images is 1) right click the boat to enter and 2) dismount.
I don't know if there is an action equivalent to the "ride" SPC command that you can do without mods. Maybe logging in/out would spawn you outside of the boat?
Bedrock to the top of the world won't work, because you can still get on top of it from any direction outside.
but this glitch relies on placing blocks, which cannot be done over the top of the world.