~~~~~~~~~~~ UPDATED 4/13/11 ~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~ Now testing a design! ~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~ Try breaking it below ~~~~~~~~~~
This is a scientific exploration thread, the goal of which is to try and accomplish the impossible and do what nobody has ever done before, to the best of my knowledge.
People have made many fancy “legit” vaults out of Obsidian, traps, mazes, etc…. and many of them are very intricately and brilliantly designed. For a discussion of this topic, I suggest you start reading here: viewtopic.php?f=1034&t=228339
BUT THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD!! Without exception, every single vault made from obsidian can eventually be broken into, given a little time, persistence and death.
THE GOAL HERE IS SIMPLE: Make a vault out of bedrock that cannot be broken into.“Eventually” is not in our vocabulary, we will settle for nothing less than perfection, with one minor allowance. ** This vault must contain a way to get in and out, and this must be controlled by a redstone code lock. Put the right combo in, entry is permitted. Put the wrong combo in, entry is impossible. Iron doors can be broken, traps can be defused or used up, bedrock is the ONLY substance that cannot be broken, so essentially all barriers must be made of bedrock, with some method to get through when the correct combination is input.
**Any sufficiently complex redstone code lock will be “nearly” impossible to break. It is close enough to perfection that it will be allowed for this.
RULES (simplified):
1) Use of bedrock as a construction material is REQUIRED. * 2) This design is for SMP and must work there. The glitches in SMP are DIFFERENT than the glitches in single player. 3) The vault can be constructed in any manner possible (MCedit is fine), HOWEVER it cannot rely on any mods to function – block protection, chest protection, teleporting signs, etc…. the final product must work if opened up in a completely stock, un modded server. 4) The vault defenses must be self resetting and work indefinitely. TNT cannot be used for defense. It is acceptable to have a one-time-use entry mechanism that must be reset from inside the vault in order to gain entry again. Preferably something simple.
*Bedrock can be spawned by any op in SMP using /spawn
To clarify for folks this is designed for SMP server admins to implement on their servers as a way to make a bank area composed of numerous individual vaults. "Special" people get their very own vault and private code (admin of course knows it). Defenses must be permanent and unhackable.
NOTES: (you should read these)
-~-Minecarts behave differently in SMP. "C-Boosters" for teleportation and force fields can have.... "interesting" results in SMP sometimes. This vault design must use proven reliable techniques that will always work and will not lag the server. -~-You can assume that the attacker has a blueprint of your vault, has read this entire thread, and knows everything about its design and construction EXCEPT for the redstone code. Defenses that rely on trickery are not acceptable as a primary defense. -~-You can assume the attacker has a lot of time and many lives to spare. Any mechanism where the attacker can slowly break down the layers of defense until entry is gained will be considered a failure. Anything that could be broken in less than 40 hours of gameplay will be considered a failure. -~-Consideration should be given to griefers in your design - if a griefer can very easily destroy a large portion of your vault mechanism, such that the server has to be taken down in order to open and editor and repair it, then the vault will be significantly less practical to implement in the real world. -~-Bonus points for ease of maintenance - downing a large SMP server just to change the code or fix a user error because they forgot to reset the vault on their way out is not very friendly.
Q&A:
Q: Can I use bedrock? A: YES!!!!!!! You must!
Q: Can I use regenerating lava/water/obsidian/gravel walls? A: NO! These can eventually be overcome.
Q: Can I use the void at the bottom of the map? A: YES!
General development steps and guidelines. This should serve as a rough template to guide our work. there's no point in making a redstone lock if we have nothing to lock yet. So development of an entry method is first, followed by testing, revisions, griefer proofing, etc. This is not exhaustive, I'm sure you can think of more things that need to be done along the way.
step one: come up with a vault entrance. It doesn't have to be perfect, or griefer proof (within reason). It just needs to WORK, making it impossible for a thief to get in.
step two: Once we have a working unbreakable door concept, I'm sure we'll quickly come up with half a dozen alternative implementations of the mechanism and refine it down from there. Don't forget an exit! step three: Take our refined door system and concentrate specifically on armoring it against griefers. anything and everything we can do. Of specific concern is TNT. step four: design the redstone lock, protect the circuit. I think that armoring it will be very easy, since no entrance is needed. You can kill the outside buttons, but that's about it. maybe 1 layer deep into the wall.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Progress and Updates Now testing a design - can you beat it ??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THESE DESIGNS MUST BE TESTED IN SMP!!! If you break it in SSP, it doesn't count or matter.
BE SURE TO READ ALL AUTHOR INSTRUCTIONS AND INFO BEFORE TRYING IT!
If you break it, please post HOW you broke it, so the author can try to improve it. Unverifiable posts simply claiming that it was done will be ignored.
We’ve all seen the various redstone combination locks that can be devised – enter the right code, the door opens. Make it a 6 or 8 or more button, specific order variety, and its going to be pretty hard to break it open…. Oh wait… I have the master key – A DIAMOND PICKAXE! Kind of spoils the fun…
I love finding out how to do things I was never supposed to be able to do in a game, exploiting quirks in the physics, etc… so I got to thinking – would it be possible to construct some kind of a redstone controlled “vault” room out of bedrock that could ONLY be accessed if the correct code was input? Hence this challenge is born! (and hopefully this is the first time someone has done this... a quick search didnt turn up anything)
RULES: 1) NO MODS OF ANY KIND! This has to work in stock, un-modded minecraft. 2) You can use any block that ships standard from Mojang. Bedrock, Ice, whatever. 3) MUST WORK IN SMP! Lets face it, having a single player vault is kind of pointless, no? 4) You can save time and skip construction of the redstone lock element – given a little space, it’s assumed that one could be made. A simple switch will do. Here's an example of a redstone lock: viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=226464 5) If you are building one for youtube purposes etc, you can make the thing out of cobble and we’ll assume its bedrock…. Cause lets face it, working with bedrock outside of MCedit is a pain in the butt. 6) You can assume the attacker has plenty of lives to spare (in other words, one time use dynamite mines won’t cut it) 7) You can assume the attacker has a general knowledge of the vault layout and has (legally) been inside of it before. They know where the door is. 8) There has to be some kind of a unique key element to open the vault. To my knowledge, a redstone switch/lock is the only option, but if you know of something else, feel free to try it.
So let’s see those ideas! Given what we know of game physics bugs and other ideas, how do you design a vault that you can get into ONLY when the redstone mechanism is activated. That means the only outer blocks you can use would be bedrock, for obvious reasons. Things like iron doors fall to the pickaxe.
I miss anything? Sound reasonable? Winner gets praise, adoration, heaps of diamonds , and the knowledge that they pulled it off!
I have a design in my head that I think will work perfectly… so far I haven’t been able to find a weakness. Sometime this week I’ll find the time to post it here and see if any of you can find a way to break into it….. assuming someone doesn’t come up the same idea and beat me to it, then I can watch you break into his! :smile.gif:
1: cover with bedrock
2: add redstone lock
Done.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Moxz »
the only time i get angry is when i have to deal with ****ing retards
The point of this thread (as I take it) is to find an unbeatable door mechanism. Assume would-be thieves aren't going to play nice.
I've been looking at a mechanism that sends a minecart past a 1x1 hole in the bedrock, using lava to prevent sneaking through in a boat. It's promising, but I'm not totally convinced it can't be beaten with some water-based shenanigans.
There's still one HUGE difference between them however. You're after a legit (no bedrock) vault which can "eventually" with much torture be broken into. I'm after a bedrock based vault that can under no circumstances ever be broken into.
If you add a bedrock section to your OP, I'll shut this one down and merge into your thread... otherwise i'll keep this one going because I think we're after two different results.
Unbreakable is unpossible as long as blocks can be broken (doors are blocks btw).
Ignoring the fact that even bedrock can be destroyed with certain tricks, the best option is probably some kind of lava minecart maze. Setting the redstone properly switches the tracks in such a way as to let you through alive, all other options lead to death. Tunnels are 1x1 so that any attempt to break in by breaking tracks just makes it inaccessible.
EVEN using something like this, no matter how complex the would-be thief could eventually gain access (or at least grief the lava traps with water-bucket suicide runs) by trial and error.
The point of this thread (as I take it) is to find an unbeatable door mechanism. Assume would-be thieves aren't going to play nice.
I've been looking at a mechanism that sends a minecart past a 1x1 hole in the bedrock, using lava to prevent sneaking through in a boat. It's promising, but I'm not totally convinced it can't be beaten with some water-based shenanigans.
Quote from lordemperor »
Unbreakable is unpossible as long as blocks can be broken (doors are blocks btw).
Ignoring the fact that even bedrock can be destroyed with certain tricks, the best option is probably some kind of lava minecart maze. Setting the redstone properly switches the tracks in such a way as to let you through alive, all other options lead to death. Tunnels are 1x1 so that any attempt to break in by breaking tracks just makes it inaccessible.
EVEN using something like this, no matter how complex the would-be thief could eventually gain access (or at least grief the lava traps with water-bucket suicide runs) by trial and error.
I think you guys are onto it, but I'm probably biased because that's the idea I'm throwing around in my head. Sure you take a little damage on the way in, but pork is cheap.
Now, how to prevent the water bucket lava issues? I think the most important thing is not to rely on lava to do the job. You need lava to "eat" failed cart attempts so the mechanism doesnt get jammed up... but maybe suffocation is the best way to kill people?
Unbreakable is unpossible as long as blocks can be broken (doors are blocks btw).
Ignoring the fact that even bedrock can be destroyed with certain tricks, the best option is probably some kind of lava minecart maze. Setting the redstone properly switches the tracks in such a way as to let you through alive, all other options lead to death. Tunnels are 1x1 so that any attempt to break in by breaking tracks just makes it inaccessible.
EVEN using something like this, no matter how complex the would-be thief could eventually gain access (or at least grief the lava traps with water-bucket suicide runs) by trial and error.
I think that this is the right idea. But instead of having you go through it, make you put some coal into a powered minecart after flipping the right switches, thenhaving it push out a storage minecart with your things in it.
I have been wondering this too, and the only way I can get around it is through the use of spawn points and nether portals. It works like this. The vault is made out of an entirely bedrock cube. The ONLY openings are two (more if you like) single chests laid two spaces apart in the bottom of the wall allowing the chests to be opened from the inside and outside of the vault. If destroyed, the holes still do not allow access inside. When a player wants to enter the vault, he or puts all of the items in their inventory into these boxes. The player then must kill themselves. As a moderator, a hack must be used to change the player's spawn somewhere inside the cube. So, upon death, they will teleport into the cube and be able to retrieve the contents of the boxes from the inside.
Getting out requires use of the nether-gate glitch discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=1016&t=75218 A gate is set up in the entry way outside the cube where the boxes are loaded. Upon first entry to the nether, the connection is made. Then, a second portal must be made just inside the cube which (as close as possible to the original), given proximity of the portals, it becomes likely that they will both travel to the same gate in the nether. Then, upon exiting the nether once again, the nether portal will only deposit the player outside the cube, thus creating a one way path.
Disclaimer: I'm not terribly familiar with the inner workings of server moderators, so I'm not sure if the spawn point idea or the portal concept will apply to multiplayer. If it does, it would be effective. If not, it would be fun to create in singleplayer, but ultimately, as stated above, useless.
Just use Bedrock. You cant break it, and if you enclose the redstone all you would need is a simple combo lock and no one could get it short of brute force guessing the combo.
If haveing a huge combo is to annoying or you dont want people guessing it you will need some form of teleport method either with a mod or maybe the Nether but of course thats not truly safe.
The minecart track idea is a pretty good idea. I'm thinking to make it more secure it should take two people to operate the mechanism that gains access. One person at a remote station and the person actually entering. For example, the person entering rides a cart into a security antechamber to the vault where he has to punch in the code. The second person is in a security room where a redstone torch lights up indicating a code has been punched in and they enter a second code to complete the access sequence.
I'm also thinking the vault needs to be fairly large so that someone with xray mods can only observe from a good distance away making it hard to see the code sequences.
*edit*
I'm thinking make the minecart travel through a long enough 1X1 tunnel that someone will surivive, but have a dispenser that pops an item out on the track if they enter the sequence wrong. Then they smother if they stay in the cart or even better if they get out it pops them into a bedrock holding cell with no way out where they can just rot unless they have a way to kill themselves
Just use Bedrock. You cant break it, and if you enclose the redstone all you would need is a simple combo lock and no one could get it short of brute force guessing the combo.
If haveing a huge combo is to annoying or you dont want people guessing it you will need some form of teleport method either with a mod or maybe the Nether but of course thats not truly safe.
Guess you didn't get past the first rule in the OP.
This is the prototype I'm rolling around in my head.
Makes use of the glitch to phase minecarts through solid blocks, adding yet another barrier to getting in. One side goes into the vault below, one side goes into lava.
-walls are TWO blocks thick to prevent phasing in on a boat.
-redstone switched track is safely in the middle
-vault is BELOW (I have yet to see a trick to phase downwards)
-track length is longer than 8 blocks to prevent riding in on a boat.
Unfortunately there is a two block height of air for an attacker to stand in at the point where they go down into the lava, and at the lava itself. Placing a sign on the wall there would at least make a "drive by" water bucket impossible.
I tried to make it as compact as possible, but it could easily be expanded so all internal walls also were two blocks thick for maximum security.
this would need to be at bedrock to prevent someone from getting in from the bottom using the SMP phase upwards glitch.
overhead layout view from above
side view from below where the wrong code carts go to be destroyed
Easy. Make it out of TNT and have it all explode if you break down the door. Add a red stone lock and boom. Done.
Quote from spectrrr »
RULES:
6) You can assume the attacker has plenty of lives to spare (in other words, one time use dynamite mines won’t cut it)
:wink.gif: :wink.gif: :wink.gif:
Ouch. Sorry. But I kind of meant like "If you bust in here, you will never get the treasure, cause it will be cinders." When you think about it, that's the only way to build a truly "Unbreakable Treasure vault."
.
~~~~~ Now testing a design! ~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~ Try breaking it below ~~~~~~~~~~
This is a scientific exploration thread, the goal of which is to try and accomplish the impossible and do what nobody has ever done before, to the best of my knowledge.
People have made many fancy “legit” vaults out of Obsidian, traps, mazes, etc…. and many of them are very intricately and brilliantly designed. For a discussion of this topic, I suggest you start reading here: viewtopic.php?f=1034&t=228339
BUT THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD!! Without exception, every single vault made from obsidian can eventually be broken into, given a little time, persistence and death.
THE GOAL HERE IS SIMPLE: Make a vault out of bedrock that cannot be broken into. “Eventually” is not in our vocabulary, we will settle for nothing less than perfection, with one minor allowance. ** This vault must contain a way to get in and out, and this must be controlled by a redstone code lock. Put the right combo in, entry is permitted. Put the wrong combo in, entry is impossible. Iron doors can be broken, traps can be defused or used up, bedrock is the ONLY substance that cannot be broken, so essentially all barriers must be made of bedrock, with some method to get through when the correct combination is input.
**Any sufficiently complex redstone code lock will be “nearly” impossible to break. It is close enough to perfection that it will be allowed for this.
RULES (simplified):
1) Use of bedrock as a construction material is REQUIRED. *
2) This design is for SMP and must work there. The glitches in SMP are DIFFERENT than the glitches in single player.
3) The vault can be constructed in any manner possible (MCedit is fine), HOWEVER it cannot rely on any mods to function – block protection, chest protection, teleporting signs, etc…. the final product must work if opened up in a completely stock, un modded server.
4) The vault defenses must be self resetting and work indefinitely. TNT cannot be used for defense. It is acceptable to have a one-time-use entry mechanism that must be reset from inside the vault in order to gain entry again. Preferably something simple.
*Bedrock can be spawned by any op in SMP using /spawn
To clarify for folks this is designed for SMP server admins to implement on their servers as a way to make a bank area composed of numerous individual vaults. "Special" people get their very own vault and private code (admin of course knows it). Defenses must be permanent and unhackable.
NOTES: (you should read these)
-~-Minecarts behave differently in SMP. "C-Boosters" for teleportation and force fields can have.... "interesting" results in SMP sometimes. This vault design must use proven reliable techniques that will always work and will not lag the server.
-~-You can assume that the attacker has a blueprint of your vault, has read this entire thread, and knows everything about its design and construction EXCEPT for the redstone code. Defenses that rely on trickery are not acceptable as a primary defense.
-~-You can assume the attacker has a lot of time and many lives to spare. Any mechanism where the attacker can slowly break down the layers of defense until entry is gained will be considered a failure. Anything that could be broken in less than 40 hours of gameplay will be considered a failure.
-~-Consideration should be given to griefers in your design - if a griefer can very easily destroy a large portion of your vault mechanism, such that the server has to be taken down in order to open and editor and repair it, then the vault will be significantly less practical to implement in the real world.
-~-Bonus points for ease of maintenance - downing a large SMP server just to change the code or fix a user error because they forgot to reset the vault on their way out is not very friendly.
Q&A:
Q: Can I use bedrock?
A: YES!!!!!!! You must!
Q: Can I use regenerating lava/water/obsidian/gravel walls?
A: NO! These can eventually be overcome.
Q: Can I use the void at the bottom of the map?
A: YES!
General development steps and guidelines.
This should serve as a rough template to guide our work. there's no point in making a redstone lock if we have nothing to lock yet. So development of an entry method is first, followed by testing, revisions, griefer proofing, etc. This is not exhaustive, I'm sure you can think of more things that need to be done along the way.
step one: come up with a vault entrance. It doesn't have to be perfect, or griefer proof (within reason). It just needs to WORK, making it impossible for a thief to get in.
step two: Once we have a working unbreakable door concept, I'm sure we'll quickly come up with half a dozen alternative implementations of the mechanism and refine it down from there. Don't forget an exit!
step three: Take our refined door system and concentrate specifically on armoring it against griefers. anything and everything we can do. Of specific concern is TNT.
step four: design the redstone lock, protect the circuit. I think that armoring it will be very easy, since no entrance is needed. You can kill the outside buttons, but that's about it. maybe 1 layer deep into the wall.
Progress and Updates
Now testing a design - can you beat it ???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THESE DESIGNS MUST BE TESTED IN SMP!!! If you break it in SSP, it doesn't count or matter.
BE SURE TO READ ALL AUTHOR INSTRUCTIONS AND INFO BEFORE TRYING IT!
If you break it, please post HOW you broke it, so the author can try to improve it. Unverifiable posts simply claiming that it was done will be ignored.
Latest design in testing:
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1020&t=240778&p=3958155#p3959269
Made of obsidian (legit), it requires several players to get in and has a lava defense system, along with an alarm.
1: cover with bedrock
2: add redstone lock
Done.
IGN: Biscot
https://www.twitch.tv/moxz - Various games.
3. mine out the door and walk straight in
The point of this thread (as I take it) is to find an unbeatable door mechanism. Assume would-be thieves aren't going to play nice.
I've been looking at a mechanism that sends a minecart past a 1x1 hole in the bedrock, using lava to prevent sneaking through in a boat. It's promising, but I'm not totally convinced it can't be beaten with some water-based shenanigans.
oO, sorry, I missed your thread.
There's still one HUGE difference between them however. You're after a legit (no bedrock) vault which can "eventually" with much torture be broken into. I'm after a bedrock based vault that can under no circumstances ever be broken into.
If you add a bedrock section to your OP, I'll shut this one down and merge into your thread... otherwise i'll keep this one going because I think we're after two different results.
Ignoring the fact that even bedrock can be destroyed with certain tricks, the best option is probably some kind of lava minecart maze. Setting the redstone properly switches the tracks in such a way as to let you through alive, all other options lead to death. Tunnels are 1x1 so that any attempt to break in by breaking tracks just makes it inaccessible.
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EVEN using something like this, no matter how complex the would-be thief could eventually gain access (or at least grief the lava traps with water-bucket suicide runs) by trial and error.
I think you guys are onto it, but I'm probably biased because that's the idea I'm throwing around in my head. Sure you take a little damage on the way in, but pork is cheap.
Now, how to prevent the water bucket lava issues? I think the most important thing is not to rely on lava to do the job. You need lava to "eat" failed cart attempts so the mechanism doesnt get jammed up... but maybe suffocation is the best way to kill people?
What tricks are those? I'm only aware of the seed glitch, and it was patched.
I think that this is the right idea. But instead of having you go through it, make you put some coal into a powered minecart after flipping the right switches, thenhaving it push out a storage minecart with your things in it.
http://www.youtube.com/user/xPulse365
Getting out requires use of the nether-gate glitch discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=1016&t=75218 A gate is set up in the entry way outside the cube where the boxes are loaded. Upon first entry to the nether, the connection is made. Then, a second portal must be made just inside the cube which (as close as possible to the original), given proximity of the portals, it becomes likely that they will both travel to the same gate in the nether. Then, upon exiting the nether once again, the nether portal will only deposit the player outside the cube, thus creating a one way path.
Disclaimer: I'm not terribly familiar with the inner workings of server moderators, so I'm not sure if the spawn point idea or the portal concept will apply to multiplayer. If it does, it would be effective. If not, it would be fun to create in singleplayer, but ultimately, as stated above, useless.
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If haveing a huge combo is to annoying or you dont want people guessing it you will need some form of teleport method either with a mod or maybe the Nether but of course thats not truly safe.
I'm also thinking the vault needs to be fairly large so that someone with xray mods can only observe from a good distance away making it hard to see the code sequences.
*edit*
I'm thinking make the minecart travel through a long enough 1X1 tunnel that someone will surivive, but have a dispenser that pops an item out on the track if they enter the sequence wrong. Then they smother if they stay in the cart or even better if they get out it pops them into a bedrock holding cell with no way out where they can just rot unless they have a way to kill themselves
by c0yote
I tried it with terrible results. I gave my wife my glasses for a second, a creeper showed up and now my wife is pregnant.
Stupid 3D..
Guess you didn't get past the first rule in the OP.
Makes use of the glitch to phase minecarts through solid blocks, adding yet another barrier to getting in. One side goes into the vault below, one side goes into lava.
-walls are TWO blocks thick to prevent phasing in on a boat.
-redstone switched track is safely in the middle
-vault is BELOW (I have yet to see a trick to phase downwards)
-track length is longer than 8 blocks to prevent riding in on a boat.
Unfortunately there is a two block height of air for an attacker to stand in at the point where they go down into the lava, and at the lava itself. Placing a sign on the wall there would at least make a "drive by" water bucket impossible.
I tried to make it as compact as possible, but it could easily be expanded so all internal walls also were two blocks thick for maximum security.
this would need to be at bedrock to prevent someone from getting in from the bottom using the SMP phase upwards glitch.
overhead layout view from above
side view from below where the wrong code carts go to be destroyed
:wink.gif: :wink.gif: :wink.gif:
Ouch. Sorry. But I kind of meant like "If you bust in here, you will never get the treasure, cause it will be cinders." When you think about it, that's the only way to build a truly "Unbreakable Treasure vault."