You're having a discussion that already occurred back in the old thread in Alpha - it's partially why this new thread exists, and why the title (Smart Booster) is what it is now. It's unnecessary to discuss at this point.
Am I mistaken that the post I replied to was made on Dec 31, 2010? Because if I'm not, then it does appear that the discussion is necessary. Or at least repeating the conclusion of the previous discussion so it sinks in. :tongue.gif:
I think the point that was being made is that perpetual motion within a normal booster is only useful to a certain degree, because it's necessary to make the momentum stop in order to keep the booster from glitching. The system that is the subject of this thread takes advantage of the momentum created by multiple loops (prior to reset) in order to get the most distance out of one boost that can be achieved (for its compact size, that is).
You're basically making this into an issue of semantics that will have no important impact on the thread.
I think the point that was being made is that perpetual motion within a normal booster is only useful to a certain degree, because it's necessary to make the momentum stop in order to keep the booster from glitching. The system that is the subject of this thread takes advantage of the momentum created by multiple loops (prior to reset) in order to get the most distance out of one boost that can be achieved (for its compact size, that is).
You don't make that point by saying "That's not perpetual motion, this is", because that's wrong and confusing.
You make that point by saying "Yes stable perpetual motion has been around for a long time, but with my system I'm able to maximize the amount of momentum in the booster before the reset so the boosted cart travels extremely long distances."
Which, having read the original thread when it was going on, I thought was what was agreed was the proper way to talk about this booster. But here they are, still talking "perpetual motion" in a wrong and counter-intuitive light.
You're basically making this into an issue of semantics that will have no important impact on the thread.
Semantics are only unimportant if nobody is actually confused by what was meant. That is clearly not the case here.
Making it clear that this is not something that had already been invented, and making it clear what the actual innovation here is, would definitely have a positive impact on this thread.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Well I was going to say it a bit gentler but you get the idea. It's actually an interesting discussion, if you want to check it out, I think the link is in the OP.
The whole point of that discussion was that calling it "perpetual motion" was wrong and confusing and was giving people the wrong impression.
At least two people who actually posted in this thread were clearly confused by this terminology, with who knows how many viewers.
So please stop calling it perpetual motion and confusing people. Please.
I think the point that was being made is that perpetual motion within a normal booster is only useful to a certain degree, because it's necessary to make the momentum stop in order to keep the booster from glitching. The system that is the subject of this thread takes advantage of the momentum created by multiple loops (prior to reset) in order to get the most distance out of one boost that can be achieved (for its compact size, that is).
You don't make that point by saying "That's not perpetual motion, this is", because that's wrong and confusing.
You make that point by saying "Yes stable perpetual motion has been around for a long time, but with my system I'm able to maximize the amount of momentum in the booster before the reset so the boosted cart travels extremely long distances."
Which, having read the original thread when it was going on, I thought was what was agreed was the proper way to talk about this booster. But here they are, still talking "perpetual motion" in a wrong and counter-intuitive light.
You're basically making this into an issue of semantics that will have no important impact on the thread.
Semantics are only unimportant if nobody is actually confused by what was meant. That is clearly not the case here.
Making it clear that this is not something that had already been invented, and making it clear what the actual innovation here is, would definitely have a positive impact on this thread.
Ahh not to add fuel to the fire, but let me clarify...
Neither cart in a normal booster achieves perpetual motion. The unit as a whole is perpetually in motion, but that's not what's meant by "perpetual motion". And even with the most boost possible, one can never reach perpetual motion without the momentum build up maxing out, so while the term is technically incorrect, it is the most appropriate term, because constantly saying "exceedingly high built up momentum" is too specific for the broad range of unstable boosters that send the cart it boosts into perpetual motion. Whenever we talk about "perpetual motion" we are referring to the boosted cart, or the cart one rides in, not the booster itself.
So a normal booster will never "give" perpetual motion, or exceedingly high momentum to the boosted cart, while using the same space the smart booster does, hence my referring to the boost as perpetual motion, to give a clear picture in people's mind as to how far you can really go with this method. Also, see the other thread for a more comprehensive argument.
Is it possible to change the counter or link the output to the input of another one to make it a decimal timer and thus allowing for easier 7-segment displays?
Neither cart in a normal booster achieves perpetual motion.
The normal booster system is without a doubt a perpetual motion machine. The fact that the boosters stop before continuing to move is irrelevant. "Continuous motion" is not the same as "Perpetual motion", and most attempts to create the latter in the real world involve pieces that stop moving at some part in the sequence. They of course fail because in the real world perpetual motion is impossible, but in Minecraft it is possible. I have about a dozen honest-to-God perpetual motion machines running in my base.
The unit as a whole is perpetually in motion, but that's not what's meant by "perpetual motion".
Yes, yes it is. That's exactly what "perpetual motion" means. It means a system that keeps moving with no additional input of energy. That's not how you are using it, which is exactly why it is confusing people and is thus a bad choice of terminology.
so while the term is technically incorrect, it is the most appropriate term, because constantly saying "exceedingly high built up momentum" is too specific for the broad range of unstable boosters that send the cart it boosts into perpetual motion.
"Stable extremely high momentum booster" or variations thereof is correct, not confusing, and denotes what sets your system apart. What sets it apart from normal stable boosters? Extremely high momentum. What sets it apart from other high momentum boosters? It is stable.
"Perpetual motion" is not the most appropriate term because it is wrong, confusing, and does not clearly denote what makes your system unique as demonstrated by several posters in this thread already.
hence my referring to the boost as perpetual motion, to give a clear picture in people's mind as to how far you can really go with this method.
"The travel distance- Over 6000 with a rider inside the cart" gave a clear picture.
"Perpetual motion", once deduced that you mean the boosted cart, invites the question "so literally forever?', the answer to which is "no, not forever", which naturally results in "Okay so how far?" and then you say "over 6000 blocks". "Damn that's impressive, but why not just say that instead of throwing in the confusing bit about 'perpetual motion' when it isn't?"
Also, see the other thread for a more comprehensive argument.
You can keep causing people to be confused and write off your idea as old news, have to explain yourself over and over again because of this confusion, and refer people to a lengthy thread which does not contain particularly convincing arguments for your position IMO.
Or you can just use clear terminology in the commonly agreed upon way from the get-go, so as to minimize confusion and maximize the effectiveness of communication.
Would you rather talk about your actual invention? Or keep having the "LOL perpetual motion has been around forever, this is lame" and "but it's not actually perpetual, so what is it really?" discussion?
As much as I love to debate, I've had this argument countless times and resolved it countless times the same way. It's the whole reason I don't even use the term "perpetual motion" in my OP as to not entice this response. And I believe I haven't ever even said that the smart booster gives perpetual motion. Any mention of perpetual motion is referenced to my older version, which after much testing, was determined to NOT give perpetual motion, contrary to my beginning belief.
Anyway, as I said, I don't feel like arguing, especially not with a person who insists on being right.
I have just finished completing the smart booster. However, I can't get the rider detection system to work due to the high speed. Any suggestions?
Edit: I should also mention you can replace the glass section of the timer with cobblestone, that really came in handy.
Speak of the devil- I was just doing that now (the rider detection). I'm prepping for my next video right now, which will include the rider detection system and my easy loader. It's all basic compared to the smart booster, but it's just an nice tutorial for those unexperienced with pez (or hopper) systems.
EDIT: It's going to have to wait till tomorrow, I need to get ready for first day of the semester.
Speak of the devil- I was just doing that now (the rider detection). I'm prepping for my next video right now, which will include the rider detection system and my easy loader. It's all basic compared to the smart booster, but it's just an nice tutorial for those unexperienced with pez (or hopper) systems.
EDIT: It's going to have to wait till tomorrow, I need to get ready for first day of the semester.
Easy loader? Too bad I spent most of today prefecting one (which is probably inefficent) that works for the system. :tongue.gif:
Edit: The project itself was a very tiring and fun process, and all materials gathered were legitimate as well. Again, thanks for your tutorial.
Make your booster track like this. The red line is the booster track and the green is the service track. The grey is the stone pressure for your minecart to stop, and let you jump out. Once you are out then trigger the minecart collection.
I have systematically gone through and started tearing apart my existing minecart system and started to rebuild the entire network including a new station, booster and switching system all from the ground up in our SMP server.
I have taken your design and managed to cram in a 6-7 capacity minecart feeder system that uses the smart booster to feed to the boost point. It has increased the height by 3 blocks (this could be reduced by 1 but I like the carts to angle into the feed magazine) width by 2 blocks (1 for the cart loader boost to rider and another because the plates in SMP react differently to single player) and length by 3 blocks (This on further inspection could be reduced by up to 2 blocks but it may cause some problems dropping carts from the magazine into the boost line incorrectly).
I have basically crammed a water channel into the top of the booster and use the existing momentum of the smart booster to push the cart to the rider when called else it self reloads back into the magazine and is never seen by the rider.
Using you redstone torch tricks I am now able to place this design and any track in any configuration in any direction.
Simply awesome!
Has inspired me to automate the inventory of my minecart magazines by using clocks to count called carts and returned carts. Undersupply and over supply will be counted at the booster site and then request additional stock or return carts to central control in the case of oversupply.
Also a central storage minecart facilty that will be dedicated to holding minecarts of specific materials and boosting them anywhere on the map for building projects. Also for personalised storage for our builders.
I have to learn more about making simple counting tickers before I go ahead with this one as I have only just mastered basics of redstone. Even then in SMP torches glitch heaps. Sometimes off is on and on is on at the same time. I spend most time tearing apart perfect circuits trying to find errors that don't exist. Hopefully this is resolved before I get involved in something more complex.
As much as I love to debate, I've had this argument countless times and resolved it countless times the same way. It's the whole reason I don't even use the term "perpetual motion" in my OP as to not entice this response.
Except you do. To quote: "Hey guys, here is my two part tutorial on how to build my compacted perpetual motion device, aka the Smart Booster." And then later in the thread you refer to it as perpetual motion, several times. To the confusion of several posters.
If you actually stop saying "perpetual motion", then you will avoid both this argument and the confusion that results from communicating badly.
And I believe I haven't ever even said that the smart booster gives perpetual motion.
Exactly. So then someone is left wondering what exactly you mean by calling it a perpetual motion machine, they figure you're talking about the booster system itself, and say "Yawn, that's old". I'm of course referring to events that occurred in this very thread.
Anyway, as I said, I don't feel like arguing, especially not with a person who insists on being right.
You can't win every point.
I only insist on being right when I clearly am. That you are using the term "perpetual motion" incorrectly and confusingly when other terms are better is easily evidenced by both the dictionary and the actual conversation in this thread and the previous. It isn't hypothetical, or something that can be argued; the evidence is in front of your eyes. You are communicating badly. You either care to improve this or you don't.
Take your own words to heart. Refusing to argue with someone "who insists on being right" is a great way to "win" and continue to insist that you are right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
But whatever. Continue to believe you are right if it makes you feel better. Just stop using "perpetual motion", and tell yourself it's a coincidence that confusion is reduced and understanding increased.
ON A DIFFERENT NOTE The first half of your tutorial which included the trick of hitting a pressure plate without slowing down the cart was quite handy. It's not only going to make my cart system more reliable, it's going to simplify some wiring too. Awesome.
Seriously, just leave the debate elsewhere. He wasn't reading a script when he made the video so how can you expect him to be perfect? Honestly, I feel that you are taking this tutorial too literally.
While i agree, i think the OP's got the point. We all know it began erroneously as "pertual motion machine" and exists now as "smart booster" 'cos it sounds kewler. It's a decent enough invention, it's warranted and deserves some slack.
It's an awesome invention, and doesn't deserve to be misunderstood or dismissed outright because of confusing terminology. The OP did not appear to get the point, which is the only reason I was belaboring it.
@wyrmhole
Look, I'm being serious. I really don't want to clutter this thread with arguments already held. You win, I was wrong, the smart booster has no reason to have anything to do with perpetual motion. Is that acceptable? Thank you for the support, but please keep the remainder of the posts on topic with either suggestions, advice, asking for help, or direct comments applying to the videos posted. Debates can be held elsewhere, and if anyone is confused as to the exact nature of the device, I will gladly clear things up, but I already tried to make the OP as clear as possible. The smart booster was originally called a perpetual motion device, and is mentioned purely to inform those who saw those previous videos.
The biggest problem I've encountered on this system is the boosted minecart will often stop mid-track between the double boosters. This only happens when I'm at my dig-site (several thousand blocks away). I suspect I built the boosters across chunk boundaries and they load at different times as I return. It's not a big deal, but something to recognize as a limitation of any moving cart booster system. If possible, all of the booster section should be within the same chunk.
I did make one change to your design, I hated the sound of the doors slamming, so I used 4 T-FlipFlop circuits to slow the counter. The outputs of each circuit are wired with AND gates to switches. That gives me a configurable counter from 1 to 15 (zero being the reset).
I also wired up a "manual call" button to trigger the escape for when I'm being impatient (i.e. after a re-spawn/death).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Operation grass-seed": Before and Current
(current link is updated dynamically from my MC server...)
Images are made using c10t with --limits, run every 5 minutes, images are compared to a MD5 of the previous image, only changes are kept.
I think the point that was being made is that perpetual motion within a normal booster is only useful to a certain degree, because it's necessary to make the momentum stop in order to keep the booster from glitching. The system that is the subject of this thread takes advantage of the momentum created by multiple loops (prior to reset) in order to get the most distance out of one boost that can be achieved (for its compact size, that is).
You're basically making this into an issue of semantics that will have no important impact on the thread.
You don't make that point by saying "That's not perpetual motion, this is", because that's wrong and confusing.
You make that point by saying "Yes stable perpetual motion has been around for a long time, but with my system I'm able to maximize the amount of momentum in the booster before the reset so the boosted cart travels extremely long distances."
Which, having read the original thread when it was going on, I thought was what was agreed was the proper way to talk about this booster. But here they are, still talking "perpetual motion" in a wrong and counter-intuitive light.
Semantics are only unimportant if nobody is actually confused by what was meant. That is clearly not the case here.
Making it clear that this is not something that had already been invented, and making it clear what the actual innovation here is, would definitely have a positive impact on this thread.
The whole point of that discussion was that calling it "perpetual motion" was wrong and confusing and was giving people the wrong impression.
At least two people who actually posted in this thread were clearly confused by this terminology, with who knows how many viewers.
So please stop calling it perpetual motion and confusing people. Please.
Ahh not to add fuel to the fire, but let me clarify...
Neither cart in a normal booster achieves perpetual motion. The unit as a whole is perpetually in motion, but that's not what's meant by "perpetual motion". And even with the most boost possible, one can never reach perpetual motion without the momentum build up maxing out, so while the term is technically incorrect, it is the most appropriate term, because constantly saying "exceedingly high built up momentum" is too specific for the broad range of unstable boosters that send the cart it boosts into perpetual motion. Whenever we talk about "perpetual motion" we are referring to the boosted cart, or the cart one rides in, not the booster itself.
So a normal booster will never "give" perpetual motion, or exceedingly high momentum to the boosted cart, while using the same space the smart booster does, hence my referring to the boost as perpetual motion, to give a clear picture in people's mind as to how far you can really go with this method. Also, see the other thread for a more comprehensive argument.
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
The normal booster system is without a doubt a perpetual motion machine. The fact that the boosters stop before continuing to move is irrelevant. "Continuous motion" is not the same as "Perpetual motion", and most attempts to create the latter in the real world involve pieces that stop moving at some part in the sequence. They of course fail because in the real world perpetual motion is impossible, but in Minecraft it is possible. I have about a dozen honest-to-God perpetual motion machines running in my base.
Yes, yes it is. That's exactly what "perpetual motion" means. It means a system that keeps moving with no additional input of energy. That's not how you are using it, which is exactly why it is confusing people and is thus a bad choice of terminology.
"Stable extremely high momentum booster" or variations thereof is correct, not confusing, and denotes what sets your system apart. What sets it apart from normal stable boosters? Extremely high momentum. What sets it apart from other high momentum boosters? It is stable.
"Perpetual motion" is not the most appropriate term because it is wrong, confusing, and does not clearly denote what makes your system unique as demonstrated by several posters in this thread already.
"The travel distance- Over 6000 with a rider inside the cart" gave a clear picture.
"Perpetual motion", once deduced that you mean the boosted cart, invites the question "so literally forever?', the answer to which is "no, not forever", which naturally results in "Okay so how far?" and then you say "over 6000 blocks". "Damn that's impressive, but why not just say that instead of throwing in the confusing bit about 'perpetual motion' when it isn't?"
You can keep causing people to be confused and write off your idea as old news, have to explain yourself over and over again because of this confusion, and refer people to a lengthy thread which does not contain particularly convincing arguments for your position IMO.
Or you can just use clear terminology in the commonly agreed upon way from the get-go, so as to minimize confusion and maximize the effectiveness of communication.
Would you rather talk about your actual invention? Or keep having the "LOL perpetual motion has been around forever, this is lame" and "but it's not actually perpetual, so what is it really?" discussion?
As much as I love to debate, I've had this argument countless times and resolved it countless times the same way. It's the whole reason I don't even use the term "perpetual motion" in my OP as to not entice this response. And I believe I haven't ever even said that the smart booster gives perpetual motion. Any mention of perpetual motion is referenced to my older version, which after much testing, was determined to NOT give perpetual motion, contrary to my beginning belief.
Anyway, as I said, I don't feel like arguing, especially not with a person who insists on being right.
You can't win every point.
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
Thanks! :biggrin.gif:
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
Edit: I should also mention you can replace the glass section of the timer with cobblestone, that really came in handy.
Speak of the devil- I was just doing that now (the rider detection). I'm prepping for my next video right now, which will include the rider detection system and my easy loader. It's all basic compared to the smart booster, but it's just an nice tutorial for those unexperienced with pez (or hopper) systems.
EDIT: It's going to have to wait till tomorrow, I need to get ready for first day of the semester.
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
Easy loader? Too bad I spent most of today prefecting one (which is probably inefficent) that works for the system. :tongue.gif:
Edit: The project itself was a very tiring and fun process, and all materials gathered were legitimate as well. Again, thanks for your tutorial.
Make your booster track like this. The red line is the booster track and the green is the service track. The grey is the stone pressure for your minecart to stop, and let you jump out. Once you are out then trigger the minecart collection.
I have systematically gone through and started tearing apart my existing minecart system and started to rebuild the entire network including a new station, booster and switching system all from the ground up in our SMP server.
I have taken your design and managed to cram in a 6-7 capacity minecart feeder system that uses the smart booster to feed to the boost point. It has increased the height by 3 blocks (this could be reduced by 1 but I like the carts to angle into the feed magazine) width by 2 blocks (1 for the cart loader boost to rider and another because the plates in SMP react differently to single player) and length by 3 blocks (This on further inspection could be reduced by up to 2 blocks but it may cause some problems dropping carts from the magazine into the boost line incorrectly).
I have basically crammed a water channel into the top of the booster and use the existing momentum of the smart booster to push the cart to the rider when called else it self reloads back into the magazine and is never seen by the rider.
Using you redstone torch tricks I am now able to place this design and any track in any configuration in any direction.
Simply awesome!
Has inspired me to automate the inventory of my minecart magazines by using clocks to count called carts and returned carts. Undersupply and over supply will be counted at the booster site and then request additional stock or return carts to central control in the case of oversupply.
Also a central storage minecart facilty that will be dedicated to holding minecarts of specific materials and boosting them anywhere on the map for building projects. Also for personalised storage for our builders.
I have to learn more about making simple counting tickers before I go ahead with this one as I have only just mastered basics of redstone. Even then in SMP torches glitch heaps. Sometimes off is on and on is on at the same time. I spend most time tearing apart perfect circuits trying to find errors that don't exist. Hopefully this is resolved before I get involved in something more complex.
Except you do. To quote: "Hey guys, here is my two part tutorial on how to build my compacted perpetual motion device, aka the Smart Booster." And then later in the thread you refer to it as perpetual motion, several times. To the confusion of several posters.
If you actually stop saying "perpetual motion", then you will avoid both this argument and the confusion that results from communicating badly.
Exactly. So then someone is left wondering what exactly you mean by calling it a perpetual motion machine, they figure you're talking about the booster system itself, and say "Yawn, that's old". I'm of course referring to events that occurred in this very thread.
I only insist on being right when I clearly am. That you are using the term "perpetual motion" incorrectly and confusingly when other terms are better is easily evidenced by both the dictionary and the actual conversation in this thread and the previous. It isn't hypothetical, or something that can be argued; the evidence is in front of your eyes. You are communicating badly. You either care to improve this or you don't.
Take your own words to heart. Refusing to argue with someone "who insists on being right" is a great way to "win" and continue to insist that you are right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
But whatever. Continue to believe you are right if it makes you feel better. Just stop using "perpetual motion", and tell yourself it's a coincidence that confusion is reduced and understanding increased.
ON A DIFFERENT NOTE The first half of your tutorial which included the trick of hitting a pressure plate without slowing down the cart was quite handy. It's not only going to make my cart system more reliable, it's going to simplify some wiring too. Awesome.
It's an awesome invention, and doesn't deserve to be misunderstood or dismissed outright because of confusing terminology. The OP did not appear to get the point, which is the only reason I was belaboring it.
Look, I'm being serious. I really don't want to clutter this thread with arguments already held. You win, I was wrong, the smart booster has no reason to have anything to do with perpetual motion. Is that acceptable? Thank you for the support, but please keep the remainder of the posts on topic with either suggestions, advice, asking for help, or direct comments applying to the videos posted. Debates can be held elsewhere, and if anyone is confused as to the exact nature of the device, I will gladly clear things up, but I already tried to make the OP as clear as possible. The smart booster was originally called a perpetual motion device, and is mentioned purely to inform those who saw those previous videos.
Smart Booster Tutorial- Part 1 | Part 2
The many uses of Reeds!
Our first Megabuild
I did make one change to your design, I hated the sound of the doors slamming, so I used 4 T-FlipFlop circuits to slow the counter. The outputs of each circuit are wired with AND gates to switches. That gives me a configurable counter from 1 to 15 (zero being the reset).
I also wired up a "manual call" button to trigger the escape for when I'm being impatient (i.e. after a re-spawn/death).
(current link is updated dynamically from my MC server...)
Images are made using c10t with --limits, run every 5 minutes, images are compared to a MD5 of the previous image, only changes are kept.