With the recent release of 1.4.01 and the breaking of mods (so soon after another mod breaking release) I have become quite displeased with the state of Minecraft developement. I am well aware that mods are not "officially" supported and that a proper API has been discussed. However, my dissapointment goes beyond mod breaking updates and is essentially "beta fatigue".
Without being privvy to the day to day workings of Mojang I do not have a clear understanding of how Minecraft developement is carried out. But from this vantage point, that of a paying customer, it looks as if there is no end in sight. From this players P.O.V., it appears that Minecraft developement is aimless.
Does Mojang have a line in the sand for Minecraft Release? Is there a schedule of specific features to implement and specific bugs to squash before Minecraft can leave beta? There should be. And here's why: We paid for it.
I've started this thread to discuss ideas around how to impress the above concepts on Mojang. Please contribute if you have ideas. Please hold back from contributing if you have nothing constructive to add (i.e. - go be a hater somewhere else).
My initial thought is to start a small, but steady email campaign. I'm not interested in flooding Mojang's email system, but a noticable bump in incoming email traffic (and easily blocked once identified) might non-destructively gain Mojang's collective attention.
When you bought the game did you not read the part where it said Beta/Alpha?
You pay for what you get I'm afraid to say, and although you ARE a paying customer it is the developers right to choose how they develop the game and when, apart from complete stoppage of production.
Please don't be one of those people who feel like they're so important that Notch and co. must develop non-stop to meet your satisfaction - grow up.
As a customer, I'm happy. However, I've got this nagging feeling Mojang is doing themselves a disservice. Sooner or later they will realise that "oh ****, we should have fixed some of these bugs before, instead of just adding more of them".
@MeagenImage: You have a funny definition of "constructive".
mojang doesnt even know what they are doing, they just add random stuff to the game hastily with lots of bugs using hacky workarounds (AKA: wool, slabs, and tamed wolves) while modders like bukkit development team, optiminer and other mods try to fix the game. what notch does? completely ignores his customers, and puts a tiny update that breaks all mods again.
You can see it on the documentary/interview video. It's near the end, it's on a laptop screen. They are 1/5th of the way through their roadmap. (The big 1/5th)
The one thing they seem to be lacking on their team is a creative director. Having worked in game development, I'm often at wonder as to why this game gets updated so slowly with the team and resources they have. If I had 1% of their resources I could produce a fully polished game by myself.
Not everybody even LIKES mods (like me) so what about US paying customers who are perfectly happy with how the development is going? Do you want us to use the things that we don't want to use? Mods are called mods because they MODIFY the ORIGINAL game. Not MAKE the game. MODIFY. I know this is obvious, but some people don't seem to understand this.
OP, you are suggesting that without mods, Minecraft wouldn't sell, and couldn't sell. You bought it prior to using mods (most likely), so that point is already out the window.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
I know I've been saying this everywhere on these forums lately, but here I go again, lol.
I really want Majong to spend some time fixing existing bugs instead of releasing new content, especially for SMP. SMP is so laggy and glitchy right now, even on good hardware and with a good connection. Since most of the game's potential is in SMP that's where I think they need to concentrate. SMP would be so much worthwhile if minecarts and boats worked, chests didn't lag horribly, you didn't have to reconnect every ten minutes to get new chunks loaded, and you didn't constantly get blown up by invisible creepers because the server's too laggy to let you know there's one next to you. With beds, joke chests, wolves, stats and achievements frameworks, it just seems to me that Majong is wallpapering a house who's foundation isn't even complete and stable yet.
They also need to spend at least a little more time testing. If everyone at the company would just get together for a group testing session and play the game for a day or two before releasing updates, they could catch a lot of things before they get to us, for example, the bed thing. One of the major advertised features for the last release doesn't even work! That indicates to me that no one at Majong spent the two minutes it takes to make sure beds work before publishing the update.
I know, a lot of you haters are gonna jump in and say "IT'S BETA!11!! WHAT DO U EXPECT!!!! UR DUMB!!!eleventy!1" but let me tell you, as a software developer (in b4 "Anybody can say that why should we believe you go die somewhere") beta means feature complete but buggy. During the beta stage the primary focus should on fixing existing bugs and improving stability and performance. New features should be rare. Majong slapped the Beta name on Minecraft but is still treating it like it's in Alpha stage. If you're going to call it a Beta then treat it like a Beta.
I love Minecraft. It's a great game and has a lot of potential. I'm just very frustrated at the way it's being developed and the way the Beta term is being misused. I'm worried that if they don't start cleaning bugs up now by the time they get around to it there are so many bugs with so many confusing interdependencies that they take even longer to fix than if they'd worked on them as they found them. I just think they need to slow down a bit and spend a little more time QC'ing their code and make sure stuff is relatively stable and bug-free the first time they do it. Re-writing existing code is never fun and bugs are often easiest to fix when they're tackled right away while the full implementation of the feature is still fresh in your mind.
Falarin: No I don't think Mojang needs to develop non-stop. I simple think it would be good for Mojang in the long run to provide their customers with some credible information. Yes I did pay money for a game that was in alpha, but I would like to be able to play that game without having to start from scratch every time there is an update.
But thanks for stopping by and sharing you're opinion. I find it rather defeatist though...
MeagenImage: I'm operating on the presumption that the developer realises that it is a good idea to listen to their customers. Some people still do business that way.
necrodoom: I do think Notch and Mojang know what they're doing, but I'm no sure they are fully aware how a segment (I have no idea how large) of their customer base feels. That's what this is about.
Traviskolber: No, I paid for an infinately upgradable game. As for the rest of your comments, see my answers above as you basically are saying the same thing as some of the other people.
mrbaggins: I was not aware that they really have a roadmap or that it was shown at any point. I find it surprising as the developement doesn't feel planned. Do you have a link to this video?
Spehss Mahreen: I'm pretty sure I never said you must use mods. So I'm not sure what you're on about.
So once again I feel compelled to ask for contributing ideas. If you have similar thoughts as I do, please share them here. If you don't, then please restrain from posting. The point of this thread is to discuss potentially constructive ideas, not to try to argue with people you do not agree with.
Notch and his team work at their own pace. They are allowed to do this because they made the game. They are the developers. When (x) update or (y) feature is done, great. But until then, it's done when it's done. Deal with it.
beta means feature complete but buggy. During the beta stage the primary focus should on fixing existing bugs and improving stability and performance. New features should be rare. Majong slapped the Beta name on Minecraft but is still treating it like it's in Alpha stage. If you're going to call it a Beta then treat it like a Beta.
That. I have nothing to add, but I felt it was worth repeating.
Quote from mott555 »
I just think they need to slow down a bit and spend a little more time QC'ing their code and make sure stuff is relatively stable and bug-free the first time they do it.
Considering how small Mojang is, I wonder if they could outsource QC? And if they could, I wonder if it has ever occured to them? I find 1.4.01 to be very buggy and although the there are framerate improvements, there are still random pauses that last 30+ seconds. At the very least, the dev team should spend time before every release running the code on a range of hardware that includes machines specc'd below what they expect the game to be able to run on.
I know I've been saying this everywhere on these forums lately, but here I go again, lol.
[...]everything in this post[...]
Re-writing existing code is never fun and bugs are often easiest to fix when they're tackled right away while the full implementation of the feature is still fresh in your mind.
/rant
I love Minecraft, but yes...I agree ^^
Maybe they should try something like test-driven development...
It's not like you have to update, you know. They included the option to reject updates for this very reason. What's more is that 1.4_01 is actually COMPLETELY optional. The SMP update? Optional. You could stay with 1.4 and you'd be fine with your mods and SMP servers. Even if you DID update, you'd have broken mods, maybe. But SMP still works.
You're really just grasping at straws here. Just don't update is what I say. If your mods break, it's because you chose that path. I personally don't use mods, but I play SMP. I updated, but I remain unaffected.
EDIT: And maybe that wasn't the point of this thread, but MY point still stands. They've put in the option for you not to break your **** (and made it even easier to go without updating in this particular instance, since Bukkit servers will all likely stay with 1.4 (I know mine will because I'm not a complete dumbass)), so it's your choice in the end.
@zdepthcharge:
it seems you contradict yourself occasionally.
Minecraft is on its own pace, and the "line in the sand" is a ROUGH outline, it is good to have, but I think you are thinking of a more specific line, because no, cookies, wolves, and Steve Co., are definitely not in that.
I believe they should spend more time fixing bugs (as said before, itis beta now), but its their game, and I bought it already,so there's no use complaining, because I want MY opinion to go straight to Mojang so they do what I want.
EmVee said something I want to add:
Quote from EmVee »
It's not like you have to update, you know. They included the option to reject updates for this very reason. What's more is that 1.4_01 is actually COMPLETELY optional. The SMP update? Optional. You could stay with 1.4 and you'd be fine with your mods and SMP servers. Even if you DID update, you'd have broken mods, maybe. But SMP still works.
You're really just grasping at straws here. Just don't update is what I say. If your mods break, it's because you chose that path. I personally don't use mods, but I play SMP. I updated, but I remain unaffected.
EDIT: And maybe that wasn't the point of this thread, but MY point still stands. They've put in the option for you not to break your **** (and made it even easier to go without updating in this particular instance, since Bukkit servers will all likely stay with 1.4 (I know mine will because I'm not a complete dumbass)), so it's your choice in the end.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
GENERATION 22: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation
Hi there.
I've started this thread to discuss ideas around how to impress the above concepts on Mojang. Please contribute if you have ideas. Please hold back from contributing if you have nothing constructive to add (i.e. - go be a hater somewhere else).
From this, we can surmise that you do not care about any conflicting opinions.
Quote from zdepthcharge »
necrodoom: I do think Notch and Mojang know what they're doing, but I'm no sure they are fully aware how a segment (I have no idea how large) of their customer base feels. That's what this is about.
From here, we gather that you have not surveyed the users in any form to determine whether you represent a sizable chunk of the community.
Combining these two elements, you risk becoming an extremely vocal minority, which would cause the majority of players to be displeased if Notch listened to you. Therefore, it is not in Notch's interests to change his practices to suit your demands. However, should you first gather evidence that (at the very least) suggests that you do represent the majority of customers, then you would have a decent argument to bring to the table. Note, however, that it is still Notch's discretion as to whether or not he should listen to that argument.
Focus on bug fixing: having at least one dev focused solely on tracking down and squashing bugs would be helpful, but the steady stream of new things is very helpful for a sand box style game, especially given that no objectives have been added yet (achievements will help in this regard).
Road map: this is dangerous for any developer to do, especially one with so few staff members. Once you lock in even rough dates, people begin to get angry once you miss them.
Quote from zdepthcharge »
Considering how small Mojang is, I wonder if they could outsource QC? And if they could, I wonder if it has ever occured to them? I find 1.4.01 to be very buggy and although the there are framerate improvements, there are still random pauses that last 30+ seconds. At the very least, the dev team should spend time before every release running the code on a range of hardware that includes machines specc'd below what they expect the game to be able to run on.
For those random pauses: a better computer or lower view distance would help alleviate the problem. However, the pauses will simply become shorter (manageable, but annoying). This is directly caused by Java's garbage collector, and will be present until the code is translated into a new language (c++ would be the simplest conversion that does not have garbage collection). Of course, this would, at least initially, introduce many memory leaks.
From the original post, I thought that was the theme of your thread.
Anyhow, from the Terms & Conditions:
"Although we are very passionate about this project, we cannot guarantee that it will be completed - that's why we offer the discounted price When you purchase the game, you pay for it as it is right now. Future updates are an added bonus."
Mojang owes you nothing. Please stop acting like your decision to buy an explicitly unfinished game entitles you to input or control.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Don't know why you should feel that there's something to learn... it's just a game that you play."
...
Mojang owes you nothing. Please stop acting like your decision to buy an explicitly unfinished game entitles you to input or control.
By purchasing the game then we have the right to have our voices and opinions heard in a public forum like this. Companies that don't listen to their customers don't last long. Your opinion makes it sound like since it's beta (explicitly unfinished) we can't talk about it or make suggestions on how to improve it. Beta is supposed to be a feedback stage, during beta you find bugs and collect feedback from your user base. If you don't want feedback you don't do a public beta. All we're doing is providing some of that feedback that Majong needs to improve their process. It's quite possible we're in a minority here, but does that mean we should just shut up? I paid money to play the game, I have an opinion (and some software development experience as well), Minecraft is in beta and Majong needs some feedback, so I'll provide my thoughts when given the opportunity. Majong and the rest of the userbase can take it or leave it and that's how I present it, you're entitled to your own opinions and I'm entitled to mine.
I said nothing about any of that. I'm simply saying that, while you are free to voice your opinion, Mojang is under no obligation to heed it. You're what is known as a "vocal minority", one of 1.8 million people who bought the game. Even the collective total of all registered forum members is but a small portion of that total.
A company that tries to please everyone won't last very long, either. I've seen nothing so far in this thread that has said anything besides "We want to know when the game will be released, it's taking too long". And I'm trying to say you knew the deal when you bought it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Don't know why you should feel that there's something to learn... it's just a game that you play."
With the recent release of 1.4.01 and the breaking of mods (so soon after another mod breaking release) I have become quite displeased with the state of Minecraft developement. I am well aware that mods are not "officially" supported and that a proper API has been discussed. However, my dissapointment goes beyond mod breaking updates and is essentially "beta fatigue".
Without being privvy to the day to day workings of Mojang I do not have a clear understanding of how Minecraft developement is carried out. But from this vantage point, that of a paying customer, it looks as if there is no end in sight. From this players P.O.V., it appears that Minecraft developement is aimless.
Does Mojang have a line in the sand for Minecraft Release? Is there a schedule of specific features to implement and specific bugs to squash before Minecraft can leave beta? There should be. And here's why: We paid for it.
I've started this thread to discuss ideas around how to impress the above concepts on Mojang. Please contribute if you have ideas. Please hold back from contributing if you have nothing constructive to add (i.e. - go be a hater somewhere else).
My initial thought is to start a small, but steady email campaign. I'm not interested in flooding Mojang's email system, but a noticable bump in incoming email traffic (and easily blocked once identified) might non-destructively gain Mojang's collective attention.
Thoughts?
But yes, I'm a bit unsatisfied with Minecraft's development too.
You pay for what you get I'm afraid to say, and although you ARE a paying customer it is the developers right to choose how they develop the game and when, apart from complete stoppage of production.
Please don't be one of those people who feel like they're so important that Notch and co. must develop non-stop to meet your satisfaction - grow up.
@MeagenImage: You have a funny definition of "constructive".
[opblock] [Sheep] [opblock]
[opblock] [opblock] [opblock] Fire: A complete guide to not burning down your house
mojang doesnt even know what they are doing, they just add random stuff to the game hastily with lots of bugs using hacky workarounds (AKA: wool, slabs, and tamed wolves) while modders like bukkit development team, optiminer and other mods try to fix the game. what notch does? completely ignores his customers, and puts a tiny update that breaks all mods again.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23440
You can see it on the documentary/interview video. It's near the end, it's on a laptop screen. They are 1/5th of the way through their roadmap. (The big 1/5th)
OP, you are suggesting that without mods, Minecraft wouldn't sell, and couldn't sell. You bought it prior to using mods (most likely), so that point is already out the window.
Warriors of Chaos!!!
Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle - So many ways to die, so few times to do so.
Only complaint I ever had was beds.
That is all.
The Sun rises in the North!Now these points of data make a beautiful line...
I really want Majong to spend some time fixing existing bugs instead of releasing new content, especially for SMP. SMP is so laggy and glitchy right now, even on good hardware and with a good connection. Since most of the game's potential is in SMP that's where I think they need to concentrate. SMP would be so much worthwhile if minecarts and boats worked, chests didn't lag horribly, you didn't have to reconnect every ten minutes to get new chunks loaded, and you didn't constantly get blown up by invisible creepers because the server's too laggy to let you know there's one next to you. With beds, joke chests, wolves, stats and achievements frameworks, it just seems to me that Majong is wallpapering a house who's foundation isn't even complete and stable yet.
They also need to spend at least a little more time testing. If everyone at the company would just get together for a group testing session and play the game for a day or two before releasing updates, they could catch a lot of things before they get to us, for example, the bed thing. One of the major advertised features for the last release doesn't even work! That indicates to me that no one at Majong spent the two minutes it takes to make sure beds work before publishing the update.
I know, a lot of you haters are gonna jump in and say "IT'S BETA!11!! WHAT DO U EXPECT!!!! UR DUMB!!!eleventy!1" but let me tell you, as a software developer (in b4 "Anybody can say that why should we believe you go die somewhere") beta means feature complete but buggy. During the beta stage the primary focus should on fixing existing bugs and improving stability and performance. New features should be rare. Majong slapped the Beta name on Minecraft but is still treating it like it's in Alpha stage. If you're going to call it a Beta then treat it like a Beta.
I love Minecraft. It's a great game and has a lot of potential. I'm just very frustrated at the way it's being developed and the way the Beta term is being misused. I'm worried that if they don't start cleaning bugs up now by the time they get around to it there are so many bugs with so many confusing interdependencies that they take even longer to fix than if they'd worked on them as they found them. I just think they need to slow down a bit and spend a little more time QC'ing their code and make sure stuff is relatively stable and bug-free the first time they do it. Re-writing existing code is never fun and bugs are often easiest to fix when they're tackled right away while the full implementation of the feature is still fresh in your mind.
/rant
Anyway...
Falarin: No I don't think Mojang needs to develop non-stop. I simple think it would be good for Mojang in the long run to provide their customers with some credible information. Yes I did pay money for a game that was in alpha, but I would like to be able to play that game without having to start from scratch every time there is an update.
But thanks for stopping by and sharing you're opinion. I find it rather defeatist though...
MeagenImage: I'm operating on the presumption that the developer realises that it is a good idea to listen to their customers. Some people still do business that way.
necrodoom: I do think Notch and Mojang know what they're doing, but I'm no sure they are fully aware how a segment (I have no idea how large) of their customer base feels. That's what this is about.
Traviskolber: No, I paid for an infinately upgradable game. As for the rest of your comments, see my answers above as you basically are saying the same thing as some of the other people.
mrbaggins: I was not aware that they really have a roadmap or that it was shown at any point. I find it surprising as the developement doesn't feel planned. Do you have a link to this video?
Spehss Mahreen: I'm pretty sure I never said you must use mods. So I'm not sure what you're on about.
So once again I feel compelled to ask for contributing ideas. If you have similar thoughts as I do, please share them here. If you don't, then please restrain from posting. The point of this thread is to discuss potentially constructive ideas, not to try to argue with people you do not agree with.
Thank you.
That. I have nothing to add, but I felt it was worth repeating.
Considering how small Mojang is, I wonder if they could outsource QC? And if they could, I wonder if it has ever occured to them? I find 1.4.01 to be very buggy and although the there are framerate improvements, there are still random pauses that last 30+ seconds. At the very least, the dev team should spend time before every release running the code on a range of hardware that includes machines specc'd below what they expect the game to be able to run on.
I love Minecraft, but yes...I agree ^^
Maybe they should try something like test-driven development...
You're really just grasping at straws here. Just don't update is what I say. If your mods break, it's because you chose that path. I personally don't use mods, but I play SMP. I updated, but I remain unaffected.
EDIT: And maybe that wasn't the point of this thread, but MY point still stands. They've put in the option for you not to break your **** (and made it even easier to go without updating in this particular instance, since Bukkit servers will all likely stay with 1.4 (I know mine will because I'm not a complete dumbass)), so it's your choice in the end.
MeCraft = Survival
it seems you contradict yourself occasionally.
Minecraft is on its own pace, and the "line in the sand" is a ROUGH outline, it is good to have, but I think you are thinking of a more specific line, because no, cookies, wolves, and Steve Co., are definitely not in that.
I believe they should spend more time fixing bugs (as said before, itis beta now), but its their game, and I bought it already,so there's no use complaining, because I want MY opinion to go straight to Mojang so they do what I want.
EmVee said something I want to add:
From this, we can surmise that you do not care about any conflicting opinions.
From here, we gather that you have not surveyed the users in any form to determine whether you represent a sizable chunk of the community.
Combining these two elements, you risk becoming an extremely vocal minority, which would cause the majority of players to be displeased if Notch listened to you. Therefore, it is not in Notch's interests to change his practices to suit your demands. However, should you first gather evidence that (at the very least) suggests that you do represent the majority of customers, then you would have a decent argument to bring to the table. Note, however, that it is still Notch's discretion as to whether or not he should listen to that argument.
Focus on bug fixing: having at least one dev focused solely on tracking down and squashing bugs would be helpful, but the steady stream of new things is very helpful for a sand box style game, especially given that no objectives have been added yet (achievements will help in this regard).
Road map: this is dangerous for any developer to do, especially one with so few staff members. Once you lock in even rough dates, people begin to get angry once you miss them.
For those random pauses: a better computer or lower view distance would help alleviate the problem. However, the pauses will simply become shorter (manageable, but annoying). This is directly caused by Java's garbage collector, and will be present until the code is translated into a new language (c++ would be the simplest conversion that does not have garbage collection). Of course, this would, at least initially, introduce many memory leaks.
From the original post, I thought that was the theme of your thread.
Anyhow, from the Terms & Conditions:
"Although we are very passionate about this project, we cannot guarantee that it will be completed - that's why we offer the discounted price When you purchase the game, you pay for it as it is right now. Future updates are an added bonus."
Mojang owes you nothing. Please stop acting like your decision to buy an explicitly unfinished game entitles you to input or control.
By purchasing the game then we have the right to have our voices and opinions heard in a public forum like this. Companies that don't listen to their customers don't last long. Your opinion makes it sound like since it's beta (explicitly unfinished) we can't talk about it or make suggestions on how to improve it. Beta is supposed to be a feedback stage, during beta you find bugs and collect feedback from your user base. If you don't want feedback you don't do a public beta. All we're doing is providing some of that feedback that Majong needs to improve their process. It's quite possible we're in a minority here, but does that mean we should just shut up? I paid money to play the game, I have an opinion (and some software development experience as well), Minecraft is in beta and Majong needs some feedback, so I'll provide my thoughts when given the opportunity. Majong and the rest of the userbase can take it or leave it and that's how I present it, you're entitled to your own opinions and I'm entitled to mine.
A company that tries to please everyone won't last very long, either. I've seen nothing so far in this thread that has said anything besides "We want to know when the game will be released, it's taking too long". And I'm trying to say you knew the deal when you bought it.