Personally no. Whats being discussed here is the methods by which their getting killed (mob traps/hunting).
Would you call dieing in your sleep and being killed in a car crash the same thing just because the outcome is the same?
Sorry, I didn't realize we were saying that mob farming==mob hunting. I thought we were saying that mob farming was one type of apple, and mob hunting was another type of apple.
I'm pretty sure someone made the comparison between walking and cars. While that's an incredibly good comparison, it's better if you compare walking and bicycles.
If you spend several hours making a bike, then you can use that bike to go long distances with little effort. If you walk, it's harder and you can't go as far. Does this mean that bikes are unbalanced? If they were, then why are there far more walkers in the world than bicyclers?
Because real bikes can't be built on 3 hours and only require easy to obtain materials in addition to not requiering any effort whatsoever to function from the moment it is started. If a bike had these properties can i promise you that there would be wastly more bikers in the world.
Personally no. Whats being discussed here is the methods by which their getting killed (mob traps/hunting).
Would you call dieing in your sleep and being killed in a car crash the same thing just because the outcome is the same?
Sorry, I didn't realize we were saying that mob farming==mob hunting. I thought we were saying that mob farming was one type of apple, and mob hunting was another type of apple.
Actually, we aren't saying that mob farming and mob hunting are the same thing. Mob hunting is running around with weapons killing mobs for their drops. Mob farming is building a device that spawns, kills, and directs the drops of mobs. And, because it seems that it needs to be said again:
Quote from iSmartMan »
Okay, I'm just going to try to clear this up...again.
In the context we are using here, "imbalanced" does not mean infinite items, because infinite items can also be obtained by mob hunting. In this context, "imbalanced" does not mean unfair or game-breaking, because most of the items that mobs drop are almost worthless.
What "imbalanced" DOES mean in this context is the potentially massive difference in the numbers of items received in each method when compared to the time and effort spent in the long run. Nothing more.
This does not mean that myself, trunksbomb, or RCIX support altering the game in any way to remove the ability to create mob farms. As I stated earlier, I have more mob-droppable items than I know what to do with, and I do not have a mob farm, nor do I hunt mobs (at night). I don't even know what someone would do with that many items! The only thing we are trying to say is that the difference in the rate at which items are obtained between mob hunting and mob farms is high enough to be called "imbalanced", and while I can't speak for the others, I do not believe it to be imbalanced enough to warrant a correction.
Also, I noticed that someone a few pages ago asked me to define "imbalanced" without the word "balance", so here goes. In this context, imbalance exists between two methods of achieving a quantitatively measurable goal when the two methods have a significant and unusual difference between their levels of efficiency without a corresponding difference in the levels of effort needed for each method. Also, there is no practical intermediate method or noticeable progression from the lesser method to the greater. This is not the only way for imbalance to exist in a game, but it is the imbalance we are referring to in this context.
Then compare it to driving or paying to ride a greyhound.
You want to compare driving to paying to ride a bus? That's what I understand from your post here.
Ok, let's do that:
Driving: pay for gas, risk dying in a car accident, easier to maneuver than a bus, have to worry about parking, can go anywhere you want, pay for maintenance/taxes.
Bus: pay bus fare, risk dying in a bus accident, hard to maneuver, don't have to worry about parking, limited destinations, don't pay for maintenance/taxes.
Seems pretty balanced to me. What are you getting at?
No, balance would imply that the transportation grid above it is fair. One however, is neither more or less balanced than the other. Likewise, you missed the point that you yourself required of the other analogy. You can "AFK" on a bus, but driving a car is constant effort.
"Because real bikes can't be built on 3 hours and only require easy to obtain materials in addition to not requiering any effort whatsoever to function from the moment it is started. If a bike had these properties can i promise you that there would be wastly more bikers in the world."
Hunting requires the cheapest resource there is, nothing. Sure it's not efficient, but neither is a 3-hour trap built with crap. Not to mention, most people like to make their mob traps and their surrounding world aesthetically pleasing, so that makes the situation you're describing a little unreal.
But there is no imbalance. I cant see how you can deduce that using ones brain doesn't require effort.
TBH if it wasn't for the internets there wouldn't be as many mob traps around as most people wouldn't of thought of it. (well if the creator of the game was clueless to it)
Therefore, in a game where you can do and build anything, the first usefull building to be inveneted in the game is being called an imbalance because it took no effort?!?!?!?
Its not an imbalance itrs a genius idea that should be rewarded with 1000's and 1000's of drops.
I'm beginning to lose hope for you.
Using your brain requires effort. But you use it once to build it and then you're done. Your brain could cut off and the farm would still produce items.
Quote from MadocComadrin »
No, balance would imply that the transportation grid above it is fair. One however, is neither more or less balanced than the other. Likewise, you missed the point that you yourself required of the other analogy. You can "AFK" on a bus, but driving a car is constant effort.
The transportation grid above it? What? A car and a bus can travel the same roads. Sorry I missed "AFK". It still doesn't make them imbalanced. The tradeoff between car driving and bus riding is mobility- you can go anywhere in a car (but requires effort), but you're set to a limited path with a bus (no effort). You may or may not save money either way, depending on gas prices and bus fares, so that could go either way. You risk dying in both cases. You get to your destination whether you're in a bus or a car with a balanced tradeoff between the two.
There's still some good point hunting as compare to grinder.
Hunting:
-Chance to find ore.
-Chance to find rare dungeon item.
-Chance to find other ressourse.
-Less boring, fighting is fun and people will still do it.
-Take almost no preparation. Food, weapond, a few tool and torch.
Those are all thing that can only be gotten while hunting/exploring.
Even if you have a grinder that will give you arrow, you still have to go hunting/exploring.
So it's not like grinding was soooo unbalance that it was killing a part of the game. It's just making our life easyer.
Can't you guys understand this? Who care how much item you have, one day you will have to move.
It's like saying branch mining is unbalance, because you can avoid monster with ease. But while saying that not mentioning the fact exploration give you more uncover ground at the cost of less effort.
The same apply with grinder and hunting/exploring it's just that you guys turn a blind eye on it.
Then compare it to driving or paying to ride a greyhound.
You want to compare driving to paying to ride a bus? That's what I understand from your post here.
Ok, let's do that:
Driving: pay for gas, risk dying in a car accident, easier to maneuver than a bus, have to worry about parking, can go anywhere you want, pay for maintenance/taxes.
Bus: pay bus fare, risk dying in a bus accident, hard to maneuver, don't have to worry about parking, limited destinations, don't pay for maintenance/taxes.
Seems pretty balanced to me. What are you getting at?
No, balance would imply that the transportation grid above it is fair. One however, is neither more or less balanced than the other. Likewise, you missed the point that you yourself required of the other analogy. You can "AFK" on a bus, but driving a car is constant effort.
This is a great analogy; very simply, the only advantage to buses is that you can go AFK and no maintenance. They don't make cars obsolete. since transportation equals items in this example, the mob farm has all the advantages of the cars and buses; it's the jet plane from the earlier example.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bad design on the mug led to water and magma occasionally forming blockages. A catwalk allows access to fix these, in a recent cleaning attempt two legendary miners slipped on water on the catwalk and fell to their deaths in the obsidian mold.
The amount of effort to let alone think of creating a mob trap easily dwarves the amount of effort to hunt. You could play minecraft till your last breathe and you wouldn't of made at least half the effort the creater of the mob trap did.
Are you kidding me? I could create a mob trap right now and finish it within the next few hours. Would it be giving me tonnes of items? No. Could I modify it over time? Yes, and I could be getting the items from it while I am making it more efficient. Does that amount of effort DWARF hunting? No way. If you want to get incredibly technical about it, you don't have to walk around as much, click as much, nor gather as many materials as hunting takes to get the same amount of items.
Quote from MadocComadrin »
Also, stop posting the large, red-lettered text. Most of it is irrelevant anyway, and it's always annoying.
Contrary to your opinion, what trunks is posting in big red letters is what this thread is about, or rather, what it is NOT about. Also, I personally don't find it annoying, so I think he should do it if circumstances so warrant it.
Couldnt atleast some people move onwards from the discussion of it being balanced or not and start suggesting what might be done to change the balance. You dont even have to think that it needs balance to come up with ideas if you are only the slightest of a creative person...
As it is now the pro-balance people can not lose the argument (not because the other side is of lesser intelligence or anything, but simply because they have picked a standpoint that can not be proven wrong). Would be more fun if something new actually came up in this thread...
Couldnt atleast some people move onwards from the discussion of it being balanced or not and start suggesting what might be done to change the balance. You dont even have to think that it needs balance to come up with ideas if you are only the slightest of a creative person...
While I appreciate your post NOT being some attack on somebody, and I do (trust me!), that is not the focus of this thread.
Quote from immodium »
How can you say it takes more effort to hunt (which everyone does) than being creative. So you would of built a mob trap prior to finding out about it on the internets? After finding out about it would you of copied instructions on how to build it?
Thats why the imbalance is opinion based NOT fact. My idea of what more of an effort is differs from yours.
What does everybody doing it have anything to do with how much effort it takes?
When I said I could build a mob trap, I have NOT looked at any schematics for any insanely high-yielding farms, but I have enough of a grasp of the game's workings that I could easily build a relatively-decent yielding farm and get enough items to dwarf the amount of items from hunting in the same amount of time from my own mind. I HAVE built mob GRINDERS before without ANY difficulty (barring random spawns from moving torches) using just a stack or 2 of cobble and a bucket of water.
But there is no imbalance. I cant see how you can deduce that using ones brain doesn't require effort.
TBH if it wasn't for the internets there wouldn't be as many mob traps around as most people wouldn't of thought of it. (well if the creator of the game was clueless to it)
Therefore, in a game where you can do and build anything, the first usefull building to be inveneted in the game is being called an imbalance because it took no effort?!?!?!?
Its not an imbalance itrs a genius idea that should be rewarded with 1000's and 1000's of drops.
There are many useful buildings in MC; they're just not so useful as to be noticeable(read balanced). Mob farms are a genius idea, where idea equals exploiting a flawed game mechanic. This is the best language to describe them; it doesn't mean they are bad. I think they are great; but you said it yourself, Notch was clueless to it. For balance to exist within a game or individual game mechanic there must be a way to offset increasing powers, i.e. increasing difficulty/effort. If mob farms gave a set, finite amount of items, they would be balanced.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bad design on the mug led to water and magma occasionally forming blockages. A catwalk allows access to fix these, in a recent cleaning attempt two legendary miners slipped on water on the catwalk and fell to their deaths in the obsidian mold.
Mob farms are a genius idea, where idea equals exploiting a flawed game mechanic. This is the best language to describe them; it doesn't mean they are bad. I think they are great; but you said it yourself, Notch was clueless to it.
Flawed? Not really, but it was rather simple: Mobs spawn in dark areas. It was bound to be taken advantage of at some point. In real life, we manufacture petree dishes to "spawn" large amounts of bacteria, with which we can then do what we want. Likewise, Notch made this statement about emergent gameplay:
"If something ever doesn't feel fun, I'll remove it. I believe that I can combine enough fun, accessibility and building blocks for this game to be a huge melting pot of emergent gameplay."
It doesn't matter if Notch knew about it or not, he planned for the game to have emergence. Likewise, since this thread is not about how Mob Farmer's in and of themselves are not fun, then I don't think it matters that people can take advantage of how mobs spawn.
For balance to exist within a game or individual game mechanic there must be a way to offset increasing powers, i.e. increasing difficulty/effort. If mob farms gave a set finite amount of items they would be balanced.
I already gave the example of X3's ai trader fleet, but staying within the bound of your statement, why couldn't Mob Farms be the end of the spectrum? Likewise, what of infinite springs?
"I think he should do it if circumstances so warrant it."
I don't think the situation has really warranted it that much, since people aren't really talking about the things he said with it anyway.
Ok I know its been said before but really. It's YOUR savefile on YOUR computer, don't complain about people using an 'exploit', thats a glory of avoidable exploits, you avoid them if you want, and use them if you want.
/thread
Sorry, I didn't realize we were saying that mob farming==mob hunting. I thought we were saying that mob farming was one type of apple, and mob hunting was another type of apple.
Because real bikes can't be built on 3 hours and only require easy to obtain materials in addition to not requiering any effort whatsoever to function from the moment it is started. If a bike had these properties can i promise you that there would be wastly more bikers in the world.
Warning: Content of link might be highly addictive.
Actually, we aren't saying that mob farming and mob hunting are the same thing. Mob hunting is running around with weapons killing mobs for their drops. Mob farming is building a device that spawns, kills, and directs the drops of mobs. And, because it seems that it needs to be said again:
Also, I noticed that someone a few pages ago asked me to define "imbalanced" without the word "balance", so here goes. In this context, imbalance exists between two methods of achieving a quantitatively measurable goal when the two methods have a significant and unusual difference between their levels of efficiency without a corresponding difference in the levels of effort needed for each method. Also, there is no practical intermediate method or noticeable progression from the lesser method to the greater. This is not the only way for imbalance to exist in a game, but it is the imbalance we are referring to in this context.
No, balance would imply that the transportation grid above it is fair. One however, is neither more or less balanced than the other. Likewise, you missed the point that you yourself required of the other analogy. You can "AFK" on a bus, but driving a car is constant effort.
Hunting requires the cheapest resource there is, nothing. Sure it's not efficient, but neither is a 3-hour trap built with crap. Not to mention, most people like to make their mob traps and their surrounding world aesthetically pleasing, so that makes the situation you're describing a little unreal.
I'm beginning to lose hope for you.
Using your brain requires effort. But you use it once to build it and then you're done. Your brain could cut off and the farm would still produce items.
The transportation grid above it? What? A car and a bus can travel the same roads. Sorry I missed "AFK". It still doesn't make them imbalanced. The tradeoff between car driving and bus riding is mobility- you can go anywhere in a car (but requires effort), but you're set to a limited path with a bus (no effort). You may or may not save money either way, depending on gas prices and bus fares, so that could go either way. You risk dying in both cases. You get to your destination whether you're in a bus or a car with a balanced tradeoff between the two.
We don't care if it is acceptable or not.
We don't care if it is viewed as cheating or not.
We don't care if is viewed as wrong or not.
We do not think it is wrong.
We do not think it is unacceptable.
We do not think it is bad.
An imbalanced mechanic can exist in a balanced game.
An imbalanced game mechanic can make a game balanced.
The value of the items is not a factor.
Hunting:
-Chance to find ore.
-Chance to find rare dungeon item.
-Chance to find other ressourse.
-Less boring, fighting is fun and people will still do it.
-Take almost no preparation. Food, weapond, a few tool and torch.
Those are all thing that can only be gotten while hunting/exploring.
Even if you have a grinder that will give you arrow, you still have to go hunting/exploring.
So it's not like grinding was soooo unbalance that it was killing a part of the game. It's just making our life easyer.
Can't you guys understand this? Who care how much item you have, one day you will have to move.
It's like saying branch mining is unbalance, because you can avoid monster with ease. But while saying that not mentioning the fact exploration give you more uncover ground at the cost of less effort.
The same apply with grinder and hunting/exploring it's just that you guys turn a blind eye on it.
I TRIED TO STOP THE TROLLS IN THE LAST THREAD, I FAILED!
QUICK THERE's STILL TIME! THE TROLLS ARE STRONG, BUT I WILL TRY TO HOLD THEM BACK!
THE WAR WILL NEVER END LIKE THIS, MODS YOU MUST LOCK THE THREAD!
I'm calling ad hominem here.
Yes, yes they do. Here in America, if a bus can't drive on the path road as a car, it's most likely a driveway.
Also, stop posting the large, red-lettered text. Most of it is irrelevant anyway, and it's always annoying.
This is a great analogy; very simply, the only advantage to buses is that you can go AFK and no maintenance. They don't make cars obsolete. since transportation equals items in this example, the mob farm has all the advantages of the cars and buses; it's the jet plane from the earlier example.
Believe me, I've tried to stop posting, but it's like a train wreck: you just can't look away.
Are you kidding me? I could create a mob trap right now and finish it within the next few hours. Would it be giving me tonnes of items? No. Could I modify it over time? Yes, and I could be getting the items from it while I am making it more efficient. Does that amount of effort DWARF hunting? No way. If you want to get incredibly technical about it, you don't have to walk around as much, click as much, nor gather as many materials as hunting takes to get the same amount of items.
Contrary to your opinion, what trunks is posting in big red letters is what this thread is about, or rather, what it is NOT about. Also, I personally don't find it annoying, so I think he should do it if circumstances so warrant it.
As it is now the pro-balance people can not lose the argument (not because the other side is of lesser intelligence or anything, but simply because they have picked a standpoint that can not be proven wrong). Would be more fun if something new actually came up in this thread...
same :tongue.gif:
At less my moral goes up want i see your avatar :biggrin.gif:
While I appreciate your post NOT being some attack on somebody, and I do (trust me!), that is not the focus of this thread.
What does everybody doing it have anything to do with how much effort it takes?
When I said I could build a mob trap, I have NOT looked at any schematics for any insanely high-yielding farms, but I have enough of a grasp of the game's workings that I could easily build a relatively-decent yielding farm and get enough items to dwarf the amount of items from hunting in the same amount of time from my own mind. I HAVE built mob GRINDERS before without ANY difficulty (barring random spawns from moving torches) using just a stack or 2 of cobble and a bucket of water.
There are many useful buildings in MC; they're just not so useful as to be noticeable(read balanced). Mob farms are a genius idea, where idea equals exploiting a flawed game mechanic. This is the best language to describe them; it doesn't mean they are bad. I think they are great; but you said it yourself, Notch was clueless to it. For balance to exist within a game or individual game mechanic there must be a way to offset increasing powers, i.e. increasing difficulty/effort. If mob farms gave a set, finite amount of items, they would be balanced.
Flawed? Not really, but it was rather simple: Mobs spawn in dark areas. It was bound to be taken advantage of at some point. In real life, we manufacture petree dishes to "spawn" large amounts of bacteria, with which we can then do what we want. Likewise, Notch made this statement about emergent gameplay:
"If something ever doesn't feel fun, I'll remove it. I believe that I can combine enough fun, accessibility and building blocks for this game to be a huge melting pot of emergent gameplay."
It doesn't matter if Notch knew about it or not, he planned for the game to have emergence. Likewise, since this thread is not about how Mob Farmer's in and of themselves are not fun, then I don't think it matters that people can take advantage of how mobs spawn.
I already gave the example of X3's ai trader fleet, but staying within the bound of your statement, why couldn't Mob Farms be the end of the spectrum? Likewise, what of infinite springs?
"I think he should do it if circumstances so warrant it."
I don't think the situation has really warranted it that much, since people aren't really talking about the things he said with it anyway.
/thread