Other than TNT or wool, I fail to see the point in mob farms in the first place. Most mobs give you items that help you in ... combat. Which... you're avoiding using a mob farm. Makes the system a bit pointless, no?
Chickens give you feathers for arrows. Same with zombies. Spiders give you string, for bows, and fishing poles. Cows give you leather for armor. Pigs give you pork. Sheep give you wool. Creepers give you sulfur. Skeletons give you arrows and bones.
...
So, 80% or more of the mob farm possible drops are worthless, if you're skipping combat by using them. And if you're not skipping combat anyway, then... what was the point again? O.o
I would think that in the end, InvEdit is more efficient all around, not that I would bother with that either. At least using that though, you get the items you want, and skip the rest. That's really what you're going for with mob traps anyway. An in-game InvEdit. A very inefficient one as it stands now.
Other than TNT or wool, I fail to see the point in mob farms in the first place. Most mobs give you items that help you in ... combat. Which... you're avoiding using a mob farm. Makes the system a bit pointless, no?
Chickens give you feathers for arrows. Same with zombies. Spiders give you string, for bows, and fishing poles. Cows give you leather for armor. Pigs give you pork. Sheep give you wool. Creepers give you sulfur. Skeletons give you arrows and bones.
...
So, 80% or more of the mob farm possible drops are worthless, if you're skipping combat by using them. And if you're not skipping combat anyway, then... what was the point again? O.o
I would think that in the end, InvEdit is more efficient all around, not that I would bother with that either. At least using that though, you get the items you want, and skip the rest. That's really what you're going for with mob traps anyway. An in-game InvEdit. A very inefficient one as it stands now.
yes you can use InvEdit for whatever you want! but the point is mob traps can be made legit, and mincraft is not about efficiency, its about amusement.
Other than TNT or wool, I fail to see the point in mob farms in the first place. Most mobs give you items that help you in ... combat. Which... you're avoiding using a mob farm. Makes the system a bit pointless, no?
Chickens give you feathers for arrows. Same with zombies. Spiders give you string, for bows, and fishing poles. Cows give you leather for armor. Pigs give you pork. Sheep give you wool. Creepers give you sulfur. Skeletons give you arrows and bones.
...
So, 80% or more of the mob farm possible drops are worthless, if you're skipping combat by using them. And if you're not skipping combat anyway, then... what was the point again? O.o
I would think that in the end, InvEdit is more efficient all around, not that I would bother with that either. At least using that though, you get the items you want, and skip the rest. That's really what you're going for with mob traps anyway. An in-game InvEdit. A very inefficient one as it stands now.
String -> wool, if you craft it in a 9x9 array. I have definitely used this quite a bit when I had a mob farm on my world where I used a lot of wool for architectural look. Also, on my pure desert worlds, this is the ONLY way to obtain wool.
So non combat relevant things =
*wool directly
*string (also fishing poles get you food, which is not only relevant to combat)
*sulfur
*bones
*pork (heals you not just from combat, but falls, drowning, fire, lava, suffocating, shooting yourself with an arrow trap, etc.)
*leather (see comment on pork. Same goes for armor)
ONLY for combat:
*feathers (x2)
*arrows
^although these are both debatable, too, since arrows can also activate redstone remotely using paintings, and are generally fun. half a point to "non-combat" due to that.
6.5 / 9 = 72% relevant to non-combat purposes
ALSO, even with a mob farm, anytime you are not sitting IN the mob farm, you have to fight mobs just like anybody else. So combat stuff is still also useful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Przerwap, upon looking at some code I had just written: "...Gav... That's not how programming works."
The fact is that it's an exploit of game mechanics and it is entirely imbalanced. Everyone else is going out of their way to rethink the same argument in support of mob grinders.
You have yet to explain, after 40+ pages in the other thread, how exactly there's a "balance" issue. Exploit of game mechanics? Hell yes. That's what you do in a game - exploit its mechanics for your own gain. Unbalanced? Not even remotely.
For the record, the "ZOMG 10k/hour mob traps!!" are extraordinarily few and far between. These are curiosities of the game's mechanics created by people who want to push the envelope for the sole purpose of pushing the envelope, more akin to the calculators and computers than anything genuinely useful. No one is making these 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP server, and if they are (And you don't want them to) then you're a shitty admin because no one could miss that eyesore and no one is digging one of those out underground. Further, no one is actually using all those drops, because no one could. All your hyperbole about the "imbalance" of 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP servers is utter rubbish, because they either don't exist on your server, or if they do you fail as an admin.
As those of us who actually use the things constantly point out (And the point is constantly ignored) - their spoils aren't all that spectacular. There are two useful mob drops. Two.
1. Sulfur is used to make TNT. TNT is pretty exclusively a toy, or a landscaping tool. Availability of TNT isn't breaking anything. Further, while grinders may make sulfur a limitless and effortless resource, you still need sand to manufacture it into TNT. This is additionally time-consuming, and uses a resource that can only be renewed by expanding your map, and uses 4/5 the amount of Sulfur. I've worked with TNT excessively, landscaping and whatnot. Even with a grinder, it requires effort to gather and utilize.
2. Arrows are used to kill ****. This doesn't really matter to me because I've been playing on peaceful since about 2 weeks into MC, but even so, what exactly does it matter? When I switched it to peaceful, I'd already stockpiled 3 stacks of arrows just from random kills in caves and topside. These things aren't a challenge to collect in the first place, so I'm loathe to even refer to them as a "useful" mob drop.
Everything else is superfluous, useless, or completely unnecessary.
Bone meal for wheat and tree farms? As if wheat didn't already grow fast enough and trees weren't literally everywhere. Bonemeal for dyes? Cosmetic, but I suppose that's actually a little more useful than arrows, now that I think about it...
Feathers? Derp.
String? We don't need more than enough string to make a bow and a fishing pole. That's, what? 6 string? Useless beyond that, and even that much is optional.
So please, please can someone explain how being able to landscape faster is unbalancing? Because mass TNT collection really is the only useful function of grinders, unless you're inclined to build a shooting range or need to instantly grow a few hundred saplings.
I've explained over and over in that thread that mob farms are imbalanced not just because you can get so many items per hour, but because that figure is ridiculous compared to fighting monsters the normal way. You're not going to come close to even the slowest of mob grinders if you're hunting mobs yourself.
Whether you get the best items in the game or just a bunch of flowers from a mob trap doesn't matter- the rate at which you are receiving these items and the effort you put in is completely out of line with the rest of the game.
String -> wool, if you craft it in a 9x9 array. I have definitely used this quite a bit when I had a mob farm on my world where I used a lot of wool for architectural look. Also, on my pure desert worlds, this is the ONLY way to obtain wool.
Woot for the most inefficient material gathering possible! :oP I won't comment on the part about pure desert worlds, beyond mentioning that's not possible in a regular MC game, so I couldn't care less. At that point, you may as well be using InvEdit, since "legit" is out the window anyway.
You get anywhere between 1-3 wool just by punching sheep, without killing them. Even by hand, this has to be faster on average than crafting 9 string into wool. It's like comparing the use of cobblestone to sandstone. Other than color, they're essentially the same thing. But sandstone takes 4 times as much material, plus crafting time, to make.
You're really just stretching the justification of string from a mob farm a bit. Although, I guess if I had 40,000 string, I'd turn it to wool too. What the hell else are you gonna use it for after a couple of fishing poles and a bow are made? :oP
And on a side note, if you're taking enough fall damage to justify hundreds of pork AND fish from a fishing pole, not to mention ARMOR on top of it... you deserve a few respawns now and then for running around blind. Seriously. I can't recall a time where I had more fall damage in an MC day than one uncooked pork could take care of. Pay attention to where you're walking. That's all it takes.
I say that hostile mobs spawn to **** you off when you're trying to do something. Haha. Like Creepers that sneak up behind you the second you take your hand off the movement keys to scratch your arm.
I've explained over and over in that thread that mob farms are imbalanced not just because you can get so many items per hour, but because that figure is ridiculous compared to fighting monsters the normal way. You're not going to come close to even the slowest of mob grinders if you're hunting mobs yourself.
And like I said, just from "playing the game normal" you're going to wind up with a surplus of arrows anyway. At the point where you're collecting more than you're using of an item, "balance" is a non-issue. If every time I leave my base I come back with half a stack of arrows more than I used, the 1k arrows sitting in a chest collected from a grinder may as well not exist.
As for with TNT, it's really only useful in large quantities for large projects (Else you're just better off mining/digging out the area), and it simply cannot be acquired in large quantities through any other existing game mechanic.
Quote from trunksbomb »
Whether you get the best items in the game or just a bunch of flowers from a mob trap doesn't matter- the rate at which you are receiving these items and the effort you put in is completely out of line with the rest of the game.
So you feel the same way about cactus farms as you do about mob farms? Further, yes, the items received do matter. If mobs dropped ores, for example, even if diamond drops were extremely rare, that would present a reasonable argument for a balance issue.
If you're seriously going to argue that an enormous flow of useless items and a modest amount of one or two items that you may use (depending on your playstyle) is a game-breaking issue, then you may want to reconsider the parameters you use for picking your battles. Just saying.
Again, how is being able to landscape a large area unbalanced? And how is clever use of game mechanics for player gain somehow a bad thing? Especially in a sandbox game?
Quote from trunksbomb »
I don't play SMP really.
Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about mob grinders. None whatsoever.
I've explained over and over in that thread that mob farms are imbalanced not just because you can get so many items per hour, but because that figure is ridiculous compared to fighting monsters the normal way. You're not going to come close to even the slowest of mob grinders if you're hunting mobs yourself.
And like I said, just from "playing the game normal" you're going to wind up with a surplus of arrows anyway. At the point where you're collecting more than you're using of an item, "balance" is a non-issue. If every time I leave my base I come back with half a stack of arrows more than I used, the 1k arrows sitting in a chest collected from a grinder may as well not exist.
But what amount of time did you put into getting that half stack of arrows? That's the point.
As for with TNT, it's really only useful in large quantities for large projects (Else you're just better off mining/digging out the area), and it simply cannot be acquired in large quantities through any other existing game mechanic.
You're right, you can't get TNT easily in large quantities. Not without a mob farm.
Quote from trunksbomb »
Whether you get the best items in the game or just a bunch of flowers from a mob trap doesn't matter- the rate at which you are receiving these items and the effort you put in is completely out of line with the rest of the game.
So you feel the same way about cactus farms as you do about mob farms? Further, yes, the items received do matter. If mobs dropped ores, for example, even if diamond drops were extremely rare, that would present a reasonable argument for a balance issue.
If you're seriously going to argue that an enormous flow of useless items and a modest amount of one or two items that you may use (depending on your playstyle) is a game-breaking issue, then you may want to reconsider the parameters you use for picking your battles. Just saying.
Are you going to get that modest amount of good stuff in the same time by not exploiting a few game mechanics? No. That just means that there needs to be a better way to get those items so players don't have to resort to mob farms in their current form.
Again, how is being able to landscape a large area unbalanced? And how is clever use of game mechanics for player gain somehow a bad thing? Especially in a sandbox game?
Bad? Not bad, never said bad. I really wish people would stop putting that word in my mouth.
Quote from trunksbomb »
I don't play SMP really.
Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about mob grinders. None whatsoever.
Right. "I don't live in Africa."
"Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about the poor starving children there. None whatsoever."
I'm done for now. It's 4 in the morning and I've got some more studying to do. I'll be back later to read the irrelevant arguments of "It's my game I'll play it how I want" and "don't like it don't use it."
I really want to make a 3-page long debate paper about this argument, but considering that those who are against the Mob Farms in this thread are instantly throwing out everyone's arguments without really letting anything sink in, and are just repeating the same 3 things over and over even if it doesn't actually defend their argument against the attacking argument of 'Mob Farms are fine', I've decided not to, and just give a single, simplistic argument. I don't wish to put that much time into something the opposition will be basically ignored.
Minecraft is a Sandbox game. By definition, in a Sandbox game, the player can do as he choses with the game's mechanics. In this case, it's using the game's mechanics to kill mobs more efficiently. People have been doing this since Survival Test (back then it was just a big ol' hole), it's just more complex & more efficient now. Not only is trying to nerf it not going to get you anywhere (as there will ALWAYS be a way to make a mob farm), but the majority of people won't want it changed. And I'm not talking about your silly little poll (which you would just argue against anyway - what's the point of having the poll, then? So you can have one more thing to ignore?), I'm talking about over a year of MC experience and watching of the community. I make mob farms, my friends make mob farms, people all over the forums & MC communities make & share designs for mob farms - the majority rules.
Also, Notch loved it when we first found out how to use water (and soon after, lava) to make to first modern-day Mob Traps. When we started doing Mob Farms (yes there's a difference - Mob Traps suck up monsters spawning naturally and kill them, Mob Farms have dark rooms or spawners to spawn it's own mobs), he reacted similarly. We were doing what we were meant to do - using the game's mechanics to our advantage. It also takes quite a lot of work to set up a Mob Trap or Farm, so it isn't exactly free.
Notch isn't about to change Mob Farms/Traps just for people who just don't want to use it. If you don't want to use it, FINE, don't use it. Quit complaining to us that do. It will be just as effective to others as complaining about someone using boosters. As in, it won't be effective at all (just like in the last thread!). If you don't like the farms, don't use them, and if you don't like them in SMP, find or make a different server that dis-allows them.
Oh, and before you go making a reply slandering everything I say, note this: I read every little thing you had to say (in this thread, not the 40 page one, obviously), and I was unmoved by it all. The only thing I found I agreed with was the idea to make mobs drop unique items when killed by the player and not the environment, as this would add a little more depth to the game for those of us that like our tarps & farms. Also, yes, fire & lava need to be able to destroy signs, but it should be that way for ALL wood products. Besides, you don't need signs to make farms or traps.
Now, my opinion is set in Obsidian, and isn't going to change no matter how much flaming TNT you chuck at it. Kinda like how your opinions are set in Bedrock, and aren't about to change no matter how many of us chisel away at it with Diamond Picks. So how about we all just agree to disagree and just drop it already? None of this is going to mean anything in the end.
Which now makes me wonder why I even bothered to waste this last 15 minutes. *sigh*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sniper on The Voxel Box. Creator of the Coolpilot Productions.
Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about mob grinders. None whatsoever.
Right. "I don't live in Africa."
"Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about the poor starving children there. None whatsoever[/quote]
You do realize you are comparing a morally wrong thing to a game mechanic, two things that are as closely related to each other as black holes & chicken noodle soup, right?
If you are going to make an argument and compare two things, make sure it's an apt comparison. :wink.gif:
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sniper on The Voxel Box. Creator of the Coolpilot Productions.
But what amount of time did you put into getting that half stack of arrows? That's the point.
Yes, that is your point. Your point also happens to be negated by my point. Explain how there's an absent balance if, every time I go out adventuring, I return with a surplus of arrows? Explain how my chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from a mob farm) imbalances my other chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from adventuring).
You're right, you can't get TNT easily in large quantities. Not without a mob farm.
Exactly. And you would neuter a critical tool - the only tool - for collecting sulfur in any meaningful quantity, at the expense of a large portion of the player base. Because you find it distasteful, or something.
Are you going to get that modest amount of good stuff in the same time by not exploiting a few game mechanics?
I'm not going to get any of those dropped items, personally, since I only play on peaceful unless the grinder's in operation. But if I were inclined to play with mobs on again at some point, I still wouldn't get a meaningful supply of sulfur, and everything else drops with greater frequency than it's needed anyway. So again, the overall surplus of non-sulfur materials negates the excessive flow of said materials from grinders. And sulfur is frankly useless in small quantities, so the grinder is actually a necessity for this material.
That just means that there needs to be a better way to get those items so players don't have to resort to mob farms in their current form.
I certainly don't disagree with this. If I could gather sulfur in meaningful quantity without building a grinder, you'd better believe I would. Building one of those things is pretty damn time consuming, especially because I build mine underground (I hate the eyesore aspect of above-ground grinders).
Bad? Not bad, never said bad. I really wish people would stop putting that word in my mouth.
Maybe if you expressed less baseless opposition to this particular emergent construct, people wouldn't misunderstand your opinion. Constantly calling them "exploitive" in a negative context, and "unbalanced," and just in general suggesting they be "fixed" is more than enough for a reasonable individual to infer that you feel grinders are a negative element in MineCraft. Can you guess a synonym for "negative?"
Right. "I don't live in Africa."
"Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about the poor starving children there. None whatsoever."
You do realize you're comparing a humanitarian nightmare to people playing a ****ing video game, right? And that it's perfectly appropriate for someone to care about the former, but not the latter? Jesus Christ, that I should need to explain the difference to you actually sickens me enough that I'm not going to bother.
I'll be back later to read the irrelevant arguments of "It's my game I'll play it how I want" and "don't like it don't use it."
And we'll be back to read your "my way is the right way to play in the sandbox!" responses. Of course, you could try and offer up a rebuttal to the "it's my sandbox" and "if you don't like them, don't build them" lines of reasoning. They are, after all, legitimate points that you seem to summarily dismiss. Especially in contrast to your "I don't like them so I want them fixed, despite all the people who enjoy their use and despite any lack of indication that Notch gives a ****" arguments.
You're effectively arguing for "one way." Play MC the way you enjoy it, absent mob grinders. Those of us who use them are effectively arguing for "choice." We like them, you don't. The solution is simple: We build them, you don't. But somehow, in your mind, that simply doesn't work. You're like the people who argue that gay marriage somehow, magically and inexplicably, affects hetero marriage. It's deluded, it's invasive, and it's totalitarian.
Way I see it, is if you're gonna have a problem with people farming mobs, then chances are you've more than likely got a problem with people using invedit.
So, if you screw around with the mob farms, and make them not work at all/worse, then chances are people will resort to using invedit in order to get items they want.
What? The other thread got locked? Well, I'll continue here, as the debate before was seeming to get somewhere, as opposed to pages of "is it an exploit?"
First, some things need to be cleared up. There is no longer any such thing as a 10k items/hr mob farm. It might be possible, but it would require MCEdit. Without hacks, it would take about 6 months to make.
The most you can get right now is 3-4k items/hr. This would require about 2 months to make, or, once again, hacks. While out in the night hunting, you can kill perhaps 3-4 mobs a minute, resulting in about 6 drops a minute. This is far preferable to making a farm of this scale. Why do some people still make these farms? To further mob farm knowledge, and for bragging rights.
The only mob trap that most people consider building is the 50 by 50 mob trap by Kiershar. It can be built in a reasonable amount of time, and I've heard it returns about 200 items/hour, if you build it under a large ocean. That's almost 4 items a minute. While hunting, you can usually get at least 6 items a minute. This makes hunting more efficient for time, especially seeing that you have to set up a mob farm beforehand, taking a couple of weeks.
Why do people use mob farms? Because it lets them sit there. They don't want to go hunting. Those who go hunting are getting more items for their time, but are putting in more effort. Mob farms take up a lot of time, but gives items afterwards for minimal effort.
Because of this, I think that mob farms should stay in. I personally think it's quite balanced.
I voted other. I honestly don't care either way. Mobs don't drop anything worth the effort to make a mob trap right now. Maybe someday if they do I might reconsider.
As for whether they're over/underpowered? See the above statement. So you can collect 20,000 pieces of string in an hour. Yippee. What's there to do with it other than bows or fishing poles? Nothing. Until mobs drop something a little more worth while, it doesn't matter whether your trap gives you 20 items per hour or 20,000.
It cannot be underpowered of overpowered because the structures you build are not in the coding of the game. I could just as easilly say that building a gigantic impentrable fortress, using not-nots and infinite springs are cheating. i don;t know why this debate even came up in the first place.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Why is it the Creeper creep up on you? It's creepy...
In my mind, everything you build has to do with creativity. Mob traps are the biggest way to enforce it. This is the same reason I dont want notch to make it so torches dont hold up sand, it would make it less fun. People have water traps that involve sand and torches. I just love how you can do almost anything in minecraft, if he got rid of mob grinding I would be mad.
Chickens give you feathers for arrows. Same with zombies. Spiders give you string, for bows, and fishing poles. Cows give you leather for armor. Pigs give you pork. Sheep give you wool. Creepers give you sulfur. Skeletons give you arrows and bones.
...
So, 80% or more of the mob farm possible drops are worthless, if you're skipping combat by using them. And if you're not skipping combat anyway, then... what was the point again? O.o
I would think that in the end, InvEdit is more efficient all around, not that I would bother with that either. At least using that though, you get the items you want, and skip the rest. That's really what you're going for with mob traps anyway. An in-game InvEdit. A very inefficient one as it stands now.
My humble LPs can be found here.
yes you can use InvEdit for whatever you want! but the point is mob traps can be made legit, and mincraft is not about efficiency, its about amusement.
String -> wool, if you craft it in a 9x9 array. I have definitely used this quite a bit when I had a mob farm on my world where I used a lot of wool for architectural look. Also, on my pure desert worlds, this is the ONLY way to obtain wool.
So non combat relevant things =
*wool directly
*string (also fishing poles get you food, which is not only relevant to combat)
*sulfur
*bones
*pork (heals you not just from combat, but falls, drowning, fire, lava, suffocating, shooting yourself with an arrow trap, etc.)
*leather (see comment on pork. Same goes for armor)
ONLY for combat:
*feathers (x2)
*arrows
^although these are both debatable, too, since arrows can also activate redstone remotely using paintings, and are generally fun. half a point to "non-combat" due to that.
6.5 / 9 = 72% relevant to non-combat purposes
ALSO, even with a mob farm, anytime you are not sitting IN the mob farm, you have to fight mobs just like anybody else. So combat stuff is still also useful.
You have yet to explain, after 40+ pages in the other thread, how exactly there's a "balance" issue. Exploit of game mechanics? Hell yes. That's what you do in a game - exploit its mechanics for your own gain. Unbalanced? Not even remotely.
For the record, the "ZOMG 10k/hour mob traps!!" are extraordinarily few and far between. These are curiosities of the game's mechanics created by people who want to push the envelope for the sole purpose of pushing the envelope, more akin to the calculators and computers than anything genuinely useful. No one is making these 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP server, and if they are (And you don't want them to) then you're a shitty admin because no one could miss that eyesore and no one is digging one of those out underground. Further, no one is actually using all those drops, because no one could. All your hyperbole about the "imbalance" of 10k item/hour grinders on your SMP servers is utter rubbish, because they either don't exist on your server, or if they do you fail as an admin.
As those of us who actually use the things constantly point out (And the point is constantly ignored) - their spoils aren't all that spectacular. There are two useful mob drops. Two.
1. Sulfur is used to make TNT. TNT is pretty exclusively a toy, or a landscaping tool. Availability of TNT isn't breaking anything. Further, while grinders may make sulfur a limitless and effortless resource, you still need sand to manufacture it into TNT. This is additionally time-consuming, and uses a resource that can only be renewed by expanding your map, and uses 4/5 the amount of Sulfur. I've worked with TNT excessively, landscaping and whatnot. Even with a grinder, it requires effort to gather and utilize.
2. Arrows are used to kill ****. This doesn't really matter to me because I've been playing on peaceful since about 2 weeks into MC, but even so, what exactly does it matter? When I switched it to peaceful, I'd already stockpiled 3 stacks of arrows just from random kills in caves and topside. These things aren't a challenge to collect in the first place, so I'm loathe to even refer to them as a "useful" mob drop.
Everything else is superfluous, useless, or completely unnecessary.
Bone meal for wheat and tree farms? As if wheat didn't already grow fast enough and trees weren't literally everywhere. Bonemeal for dyes? Cosmetic, but I suppose that's actually a little more useful than arrows, now that I think about it...
Feathers? Derp.
String? We don't need more than enough string to make a bow and a fishing pole. That's, what? 6 string? Useless beyond that, and even that much is optional.
So please, please can someone explain how being able to landscape faster is unbalancing? Because mass TNT collection really is the only useful function of grinders, unless you're inclined to build a shooting range or need to instantly grow a few hundred saplings.
Whether you get the best items in the game or just a bunch of flowers from a mob trap doesn't matter- the rate at which you are receiving these items and the effort you put in is completely out of line with the rest of the game.
I don't play SMP really.
Woot for the most inefficient material gathering possible! :oP I won't comment on the part about pure desert worlds, beyond mentioning that's not possible in a regular MC game, so I couldn't care less. At that point, you may as well be using InvEdit, since "legit" is out the window anyway.
You get anywhere between 1-3 wool just by punching sheep, without killing them. Even by hand, this has to be faster on average than crafting 9 string into wool. It's like comparing the use of cobblestone to sandstone. Other than color, they're essentially the same thing. But sandstone takes 4 times as much material, plus crafting time, to make.
You're really just stretching the justification of string from a mob farm a bit. Although, I guess if I had 40,000 string, I'd turn it to wool too. What the hell else are you gonna use it for after a couple of fishing poles and a bow are made? :oP
And on a side note, if you're taking enough fall damage to justify hundreds of pork AND fish from a fishing pole, not to mention ARMOR on top of it... you deserve a few respawns now and then for running around blind. Seriously. I can't recall a time where I had more fall damage in an MC day than one uncooked pork could take care of. Pay attention to where you're walking. That's all it takes.
My humble LPs can be found here.
And like I said, just from "playing the game normal" you're going to wind up with a surplus of arrows anyway. At the point where you're collecting more than you're using of an item, "balance" is a non-issue. If every time I leave my base I come back with half a stack of arrows more than I used, the 1k arrows sitting in a chest collected from a grinder may as well not exist.
As for with TNT, it's really only useful in large quantities for large projects (Else you're just better off mining/digging out the area), and it simply cannot be acquired in large quantities through any other existing game mechanic.
So you feel the same way about cactus farms as you do about mob farms? Further, yes, the items received do matter. If mobs dropped ores, for example, even if diamond drops were extremely rare, that would present a reasonable argument for a balance issue.
If you're seriously going to argue that an enormous flow of useless items and a modest amount of one or two items that you may use (depending on your playstyle) is a game-breaking issue, then you may want to reconsider the parameters you use for picking your battles. Just saying.
Again, how is being able to landscape a large area unbalanced? And how is clever use of game mechanics for player gain somehow a bad thing? Especially in a sandbox game?
Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about mob grinders. None whatsoever.
But what amount of time did you put into getting that half stack of arrows? That's the point.
You're right, you can't get TNT easily in large quantities. Not without a mob farm.
Are you going to get that modest amount of good stuff in the same time by not exploiting a few game mechanics? No. That just means that there needs to be a better way to get those items so players don't have to resort to mob farms in their current form.
Bad? Not bad, never said bad. I really wish people would stop putting that word in my mouth.
Right. "I don't live in Africa."
"Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about the poor starving children there. None whatsoever."
I'm done for now. It's 4 in the morning and I've got some more studying to do. I'll be back later to read the irrelevant arguments of "It's my game I'll play it how I want" and "don't like it don't use it."
Minecraft is a Sandbox game. By definition, in a Sandbox game, the player can do as he choses with the game's mechanics. In this case, it's using the game's mechanics to kill mobs more efficiently. People have been doing this since Survival Test (back then it was just a big ol' hole), it's just more complex & more efficient now. Not only is trying to nerf it not going to get you anywhere (as there will ALWAYS be a way to make a mob farm), but the majority of people won't want it changed. And I'm not talking about your silly little poll (which you would just argue against anyway - what's the point of having the poll, then? So you can have one more thing to ignore?), I'm talking about over a year of MC experience and watching of the community. I make mob farms, my friends make mob farms, people all over the forums & MC communities make & share designs for mob farms - the majority rules.
Also, Notch loved it when we first found out how to use water (and soon after, lava) to make to first modern-day Mob Traps. When we started doing Mob Farms (yes there's a difference - Mob Traps suck up monsters spawning naturally and kill them, Mob Farms have dark rooms or spawners to spawn it's own mobs), he reacted similarly. We were doing what we were meant to do - using the game's mechanics to our advantage. It also takes quite a lot of work to set up a Mob Trap or Farm, so it isn't exactly free.
Notch isn't about to change Mob Farms/Traps just for people who just don't want to use it. If you don't want to use it, FINE, don't use it. Quit complaining to us that do. It will be just as effective to others as complaining about someone using boosters. As in, it won't be effective at all (just like in the last thread!). If you don't like the farms, don't use them, and if you don't like them in SMP, find or make a different server that dis-allows them.
Oh, and before you go making a reply slandering everything I say, note this: I read every little thing you had to say (in this thread, not the 40 page one, obviously), and I was unmoved by it all. The only thing I found I agreed with was the idea to make mobs drop unique items when killed by the player and not the environment, as this would add a little more depth to the game for those of us that like our tarps & farms. Also, yes, fire & lava need to be able to destroy signs, but it should be that way for ALL wood products. Besides, you don't need signs to make farms or traps.
Now, my opinion is set in Obsidian, and isn't going to change no matter how much flaming TNT you chuck at it. Kinda like how your opinions are set in Bedrock, and aren't about to change no matter how many of us chisel away at it with Diamond Picks. So how about we all just agree to disagree and just drop it already? None of this is going to mean anything in the end.
Which now makes me wonder why I even bothered to waste this last 15 minutes. *sigh*
Right. "I don't live in Africa."
"Then you have absolutely no legitimate reason to care about the poor starving children there. None whatsoever[/quote]
You do realize you are comparing a morally wrong thing to a game mechanic, two things that are as closely related to each other as black holes & chicken noodle soup, right?
If you are going to make an argument and compare two things, make sure it's an apt comparison. :wink.gif:
Yes, that is your point. Your point also happens to be negated by my point. Explain how there's an absent balance if, every time I go out adventuring, I return with a surplus of arrows? Explain how my chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from a mob farm) imbalances my other chest of arrows collecting dust (obtained from adventuring).
Exactly. And you would neuter a critical tool - the only tool - for collecting sulfur in any meaningful quantity, at the expense of a large portion of the player base. Because you find it distasteful, or something.
I'm not going to get any of those dropped items, personally, since I only play on peaceful unless the grinder's in operation. But if I were inclined to play with mobs on again at some point, I still wouldn't get a meaningful supply of sulfur, and everything else drops with greater frequency than it's needed anyway. So again, the overall surplus of non-sulfur materials negates the excessive flow of said materials from grinders. And sulfur is frankly useless in small quantities, so the grinder is actually a necessity for this material.
I certainly don't disagree with this. If I could gather sulfur in meaningful quantity without building a grinder, you'd better believe I would. Building one of those things is pretty damn time consuming, especially because I build mine underground (I hate the eyesore aspect of above-ground grinders).
Maybe if you expressed less baseless opposition to this particular emergent construct, people wouldn't misunderstand your opinion. Constantly calling them "exploitive" in a negative context, and "unbalanced," and just in general suggesting they be "fixed" is more than enough for a reasonable individual to infer that you feel grinders are a negative element in MineCraft. Can you guess a synonym for "negative?"
You do realize you're comparing a humanitarian nightmare to people playing a ****ing video game, right? And that it's perfectly appropriate for someone to care about the former, but not the latter? Jesus Christ, that I should need to explain the difference to you actually sickens me enough that I'm not going to bother.
And we'll be back to read your "my way is the right way to play in the sandbox!" responses. Of course, you could try and offer up a rebuttal to the "it's my sandbox" and "if you don't like them, don't build them" lines of reasoning. They are, after all, legitimate points that you seem to summarily dismiss. Especially in contrast to your "I don't like them so I want them fixed, despite all the people who enjoy their use and despite any lack of indication that Notch gives a ****" arguments.
You're effectively arguing for "one way." Play MC the way you enjoy it, absent mob grinders. Those of us who use them are effectively arguing for "choice." We like them, you don't. The solution is simple: We build them, you don't. But somehow, in your mind, that simply doesn't work. You're like the people who argue that gay marriage somehow, magically and inexplicably, affects hetero marriage. It's deluded, it's invasive, and it's totalitarian.
So, if you screw around with the mob farms, and make them not work at all/worse, then chances are people will resort to using invedit in order to get items they want.
Voted for left alone.
First, some things need to be cleared up. There is no longer any such thing as a 10k items/hr mob farm. It might be possible, but it would require MCEdit. Without hacks, it would take about 6 months to make.
The most you can get right now is 3-4k items/hr. This would require about 2 months to make, or, once again, hacks. While out in the night hunting, you can kill perhaps 3-4 mobs a minute, resulting in about 6 drops a minute. This is far preferable to making a farm of this scale. Why do some people still make these farms? To further mob farm knowledge, and for bragging rights.
The only mob trap that most people consider building is the 50 by 50 mob trap by Kiershar. It can be built in a reasonable amount of time, and I've heard it returns about 200 items/hour, if you build it under a large ocean. That's almost 4 items a minute. While hunting, you can usually get at least 6 items a minute. This makes hunting more efficient for time, especially seeing that you have to set up a mob farm beforehand, taking a couple of weeks.
Why do people use mob farms? Because it lets them sit there. They don't want to go hunting. Those who go hunting are getting more items for their time, but are putting in more effort. Mob farms take up a lot of time, but gives items afterwards for minimal effort.
Because of this, I think that mob farms should stay in. I personally think it's quite balanced.
And yes, it's an exploit.
The New Boat Elevator
Simple Drowning Trap
Complex Drowning Trap
Note Blocks - The Blue Danube
Minecart Rider Detection System
As for whether they're over/underpowered? See the above statement. So you can collect 20,000 pieces of string in an hour. Yippee. What's there to do with it other than bows or fishing poles? Nothing. Until mobs drop something a little more worth while, it doesn't matter whether your trap gives you 20 items per hour or 20,000.
Game mechanic
and should be left alone.