But I get it now. You basically want everyone to have to repeat a menial task over and over for a tiny reward because that's somehow more "fun". Do you work for Blizzard perhaps?
I like how you use an example that is one, if not the richest gaming company in the world now, just because you personally think their games are grindy or some nonsense like that. Obviously they're doin' something right, mmk?
Quote from Armitige »
Minecraft has no economy as of yet. The survival element is over after about 3 hours of game play. String and arrows lose their value around the same time. Sulfur is used primarily for an item that has few practical uses in the game world. And you equate all that to equalling mob traps are "imbalanced". Perfectly logical.
I didn't know the mobs disappear after three hours, i thought you still had to face them if you go outside your little hobbit hole during the day. Again, you're using the "game is shitty so shitty mechanics are okay" example. We're talking about balance here, not whether or not you think something matters to be exploitable.
Wow.....when did I say the game was shitty? I think it's awesome, you know why? Because it's lots of fun to try and make things work with the resources in the game. It's a great sense of achievement when you've spent hours constructing some elaborate mix of game mechanics to see it begin to work exactly as you hoped it would. Either that or it fails spectacularly and you get the awesome fun of trouble shooting it and discovering where you went wrong. You're the one saying the game is shitty because of mob traps. I think you should find another game. Minecraft clearly isn't for you.
As to mobs disappearing after 3 hours, if you're not in a position of total safety after 3 hours in minecraft, you're a complete prat, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Oh, that is unless of course you choose to play the game the way you want, maybe set you're own ground rules to make life difficult. But we can't have that! THERE MUST BE COMPLETE ORDER! EVERYTHING MUST FIT INTO THE TINY BOX THAT IS MY OPINION!
I'm just interested in why you think restricting building objects or using spawning algorithms to your advantage is so bad in a sandbox game as this. I'm not trying to insult you or anything. You just don't explain the key part of your discussion.
Because i like things in games being balanced, game designer perspective you could say, we're arguing theoretical here anyway not whether or not i think it -will- get changed.
Most of the stupid shitstorm arguments i get seem to be, "IT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU, WHY DOES IT MATTER, GAWD."
It matters because someone gives a **** even if you don't~
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but your discussion about balance is going too far.
Mob traps make the game too easy since no mobs spawn in the field anymore? How about if I stay inside a secure house. Wouldn't that also break the balance of the game? Maybe we can fix this by making mobs break blocks. How about I stay in the middle of the ocean on a small boat that would surely stop mobs from coming? We can make mobs swim. I can light the whole entire world up with torches that would stop those bastards! We can make mobs appear in the light.
It can go on and on. Seriously, mob traps aren't something that can be made unintentionally, so I really don't see the problem to this. This game is not about the difficulty that makes it fun. Maybe there can be mods or different rules restricting certain actions of players so that it gives a different playability, but that isn't the original minecraft anymore.
My stance on mob traps hasn't moved anywhere, so I doubt it's gone too far.
Again, I'm not advocated to get rid of or even change mob traps. I don't really care if someone uses them.
The fact is that it's an exploit of game mechanics and it is entirely imbalanced. Everyone else is going out of their way to rethink the same argument in support of mob grinders.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but your discussion about balance is going too far.
Mob traps make the game too easy since no mobs spawn in the field anymore?
It made it easy when you get an insane amount of items for work that nowhere equals getting the items normally.
Quote from BDtetra »
How about if I stay inside a secure house. Wouldn't that also break the balance of the game?
If you can enlighten me how you mine, expand, do anything useful or new in the game besides sit on a square, staying inside a secure house, by all means. For the rest of us mortals out there, usually we have to venture around to gather things.
Quote from BDtetra »
It can go on and on. Seriously, mob traps aren't something that can be made unintentionally, so I really don't see the problem to this.
Just like i don't see your point in them being intentionally made having any impact on the point.
Quote from BDtetra »
This game is not about the difficulty that makes it fun. Maybe there can be mods or different rules restricting certain actions of players so that it gives a different playability, but that isn't the original minecraft anymore.
Please don't speak for -everyone- i happen to know i enjoy building on hard, i enjoy surviving, and i know people and have seen people that have just as much fun on peaceful never seeing a mob once. Difficulty is a discussion of removing or retuning game mechanics, unless it refers to difficulty that can be scaled like mob damage/existance of them, thats when we talk about scaling difficulty.
Mob traps don't have /scaling/ difficulty, so we aren't talking about that obviously(except for peaceful, which removes them.)
Also don't use 'original minecraft' as any point except that you are adverse to change. Guess what, creative used to be Minecraft, and beta is nothing like what Minecraft will be when it is finally dropped from development who knows how long from now. Change is gonna happen, don't act like its taboo to talk about it because you don't seem to want it to change.
That's ~3 hours spent, and you've got enough arrows to last you several irl days generally. Oh, and some bone meal.
Why is this a problem? Scenario 2 is not only more fun, but also requires a lot more working hours to get usefulness out of. As it's been said so many times before, if you don't like it, don't use it.
My stance on mob traps hasn't moved anywhere, so I doubt it's gone too far.
Again, I'm not advocated to get rid of or even change mob traps. I don't really care if someone uses them.
The fact is that it's an exploit of game mechanics and it is entirely imbalanced. Everyone else is going out of their way to rethink the same argument in support of mob grinders.
I'm just saying that Notch doing more work changing the spawning algorithm is not worth it, and I don't think balance is an issue for minecraft at all(and I'm not saying everybody thinks this way). And I still don't get when you say "imbalanced". Are you also against booster minecarts, redstone resetting waterflows, and all those great inventions that people have came up with using exploits? Why is a mob farm so special compared to these other inventions?
Yes, most of the designs are not original and I do understand that there are only a few people making new designs that are worth calling "inventions". But that's the same with any other feature in minecraft.
Quote from Satharis »
It made it easy when you get an insane amount of items for work that nowhere equals getting the items normally.
yes, but that is all because of people thinking up of these contraptions. Would you also say that branch mining on layer 12 is also an exploit? There is a significant difference of effect between these two, but both are using game mechanics to your advantage.
Quote from Satharis »
Just like i don't see your point in them being intentionally made having any impact on the point.
well, intentionally meaning that when you build your mob farm, you are aware of the consequences of the so called "breaking the balance" of the game.
Quote from Satharis »
Also don't use 'original minecraft' as any point except that you are adverse to change. Guess what, creative used to be Minecraft, and beta is nothing like what Minecraft will be when it is finally dropped from development who knows how long from now.
yes, but that is not what you will have a choice on. The developers will do it for you.
If you don't like mob farms in beta, well too bad. you should wait for the developers to fix it.
Or maybe you can go talk to Notch himself. But crying in the forums to try to persuade people would not do anything.
That's ~3 hours spent, and you've got enough arrows to last you several irl days generally. Oh, and some bone meal.
Why is this a problem? Scenario 2 is not only more fun, but also requires a lot more working hours to get usefulness out of. As it's been said so many times before, if you don't like it, don't use it.
Your example is terrible, how about doing 24 hours after the mob grinder is built and the other person already has food on hand. Oh that's right, the mob grinder will outstrip the player in an hour, automatically i might add.
Your example is akin to comparing digging a mine with a shovel or a backhoe, it might take 8 hours to build the backhoe and then you put 1 hour of mining, then compare it to someone that was digging with a shovel for 9 hours. Obviously the shovel will still win, so why aren't we all digging with shovels?
Alot of people had gone through alot of work and thinking to build a mob farm.
so basically you're telling them that their work is too efficient at what it's supposed to do that you want to change it so they get less of what they are deserved to get?
It's not that I like mob farms which is keeping me in this thread, but the fact that somebody is really hating people to make great inventions as such bothers me
The thing I love about minecraft and this forum is that people come up with amazing contraptions that I would have never thought of myself, but seems that isn't the case with all people
Alot of people had gone through alot of work and thinking to build a mob farm.
so basically you're telling them that their work is too efficient at what it's supposed to do that you want to change it so they get less of what they are deserved to get?
Nope, we're telling them that putting in a set amount of work to reap an effortlessly infinite supply of items is imbalanced.
I think some smaller casual mob traps are harder to keep going, mine worked for a good while, but after one time left running overnight, it's all but stopped spawning completely, heck, I can't see any mobs from my look-out tower most nights. my stupid trap killed off all the local monsters I guess.
It's not that I like mob farms which is keeping me in this thread, but the fact that somebody is really hating people to make great inventions as such bothers me
The thing I love about minecraft and this forum is that people come up with amazing contraptions that I would have never thought of myself, but seems that isn't the case with all people
I'm not even sure to begin on that statement, when did i ever say i wanted to stop people being inventive? It's like saying a cop wants people to stop driving cars because he pulls them over. I just want stuff balanced that doesn't at all mean i don't want people to keep inventing stuff, inventions just need to be regulated.
Notch actually has patched a few exploits like getting tons of sticks out of breaking boats, that people figured out while making other inventions. The difference between real life and a game, the game is still being balanced, whatever the hell made real life is already done balancing it.
Alot of people had gone through alot of work and thinking to build a mob farm.
so basically you're telling them that their work is too efficient at what it's supposed to do that you want to change it so they get less of what they are deserved to get?
Nope, we're telling them that putting in a set amount of work to reap an effortlessly infinite supply of items is imbalanced.
then surely your also against booster carts, since they give infinite source of energy without the use of coal
It's not that I like mob farms which is keeping me in this thread, but the fact that somebody is really hating people to make great inventions as such bothers me
The thing I love about minecraft and this forum is that people come up with amazing contraptions that I would have never thought of myself, but seems that isn't the case with all people
I'm not even sure to begin on that statement, when did i ever say i wanted to stop people being inventive? It's like saying a cop wants people to stop driving cars because he pulls them over. I just want stuff balanced that doesn't at all mean i don't want people to keep inventing stuff, inventions just need to be regulated.
Notch actually has patched a few exploits like getting tons of sticks out of breaking boats, that people figured out while making other inventions. The difference between real life and a game, the game is still being balanced, whatever the hell made real life is already done balancing it.
Yeah I do understand what your trying to say. But, I still believe that Notch shouldn't go all the way trying to "fix" the spawnings of mobs just to stop the Mob farms. I will accept however, if Notch changes the spawning algorithm for a different purpose which effects how the mob farms work right now. I said this in my first post
Quote from trunksbomb »
That's irrelevant to the point, but yes.
then I have nothing more to say to you. you have a consistent argument, and I guess that's fine
Yeah I do understand what your trying to say. But, I still believe that Notch shouldn't go all the way trying to "fix" the spawnings of mobs just to stop the Mob farms. I will accept however, if Notch changes the spawning algorithm for a different purpose which effects how the mob farms work right now. I said this in my first post
Which is what I've been suggesting the whole time. I know you weren't talking to me, but it's all the same.
He shouldn't "fix" spawning, as there's nothing immediately wrong with it. But when people start abusing the spawning algorithm, it brings to light a flaw in it- that they will constantly spawn in darkness without fail. So a change is in order.
And it seems like all the people who popped in with "this is still alive" and "IT'S A GAME DEAL WITH IT /THREAD" got their wish granted.
In the same way that Notch needs to add a legitimate way to speed minecarts before removing the booster exploit, he needs to add a legitimate way of gaining stacks of TNT for big projects before removing the mob grinder exploit. As long as they're the only way of getting significant amounts of TNT without hacking, they're a necessary evil.
Wow.....when did I say the game was shitty? I think it's awesome, you know why? Because it's lots of fun to try and make things work with the resources in the game. It's a great sense of achievement when you've spent hours constructing some elaborate mix of game mechanics to see it begin to work exactly as you hoped it would. Either that or it fails spectacularly and you get the awesome fun of trouble shooting it and discovering where you went wrong. You're the one saying the game is shitty because of mob traps. I think you should find another game. Minecraft clearly isn't for you.
As to mobs disappearing after 3 hours, if you're not in a position of total safety after 3 hours in minecraft, you're a complete prat, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Oh, that is unless of course you choose to play the game the way you want, maybe set you're own ground rules to make life difficult. But we can't have that! THERE MUST BE COMPLETE ORDER! EVERYTHING MUST FIT INTO THE TINY BOX THAT IS MY OPINION!
Because i like things in games being balanced, game designer perspective you could say, we're arguing theoretical here anyway not whether or not i think it -will- get changed.
Most of the stupid shitstorm arguments i get seem to be, "IT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU, WHY DOES IT MATTER, GAWD."
It matters because someone gives a **** even if you don't~
I only appreciate if monsters just like to fall inside canalas and they wander into a trap or if it advantages a spawner
Mob traps make the game too easy since no mobs spawn in the field anymore? How about if I stay inside a secure house. Wouldn't that also break the balance of the game? Maybe we can fix this by making mobs break blocks. How about I stay in the middle of the ocean on a small boat that would surely stop mobs from coming? We can make mobs swim. I can light the whole entire world up with torches that would stop those bastards! We can make mobs appear in the light.
It can go on and on. Seriously, mob traps aren't something that can be made unintentionally, so I really don't see the problem to this. This game is not about the difficulty that makes it fun. Maybe there can be mods or different rules restricting certain actions of players so that it gives a different playability, but that isn't the original minecraft anymore.
Again, I'm not advocated to get rid of or even change mob traps. I don't really care if someone uses them.
The fact is that it's an exploit of game mechanics and it is entirely imbalanced. Everyone else is going out of their way to rethink the same argument in support of mob grinders.
It made it easy when you get an insane amount of items for work that nowhere equals getting the items normally.
If you can enlighten me how you mine, expand, do anything useful or new in the game besides sit on a square, staying inside a secure house, by all means. For the rest of us mortals out there, usually we have to venture around to gather things.
Just like i don't see your point in them being intentionally made having any impact on the point.
Please don't speak for -everyone- i happen to know i enjoy building on hard, i enjoy surviving, and i know people and have seen people that have just as much fun on peaceful never seeing a mob once. Difficulty is a discussion of removing or retuning game mechanics, unless it refers to difficulty that can be scaled like mob damage/existance of them, thats when we talk about scaling difficulty.
Mob traps don't have /scaling/ difficulty, so we aren't talking about that obviously(except for peaceful, which removes them.)
Also don't use 'original minecraft' as any point except that you are adverse to change. Guess what, creative used to be Minecraft, and beta is nothing like what Minecraft will be when it is finally dropped from development who knows how long from now. Change is gonna happen, don't act like its taboo to talk about it because you don't seem to want it to change.
Scenario 1
8+ hours spent on a Mob Trap (~2k/hr depending on the design can be built in that time)
1 hour spent collecting
That's ~9 hours spent, and all you gain out of it is arrows and some fast growing trees.
Scenario 2
1 hour collecting/cooking pork and crafting swords
2+ hours spent hunting skeletons
That's ~3 hours spent, and you've got enough arrows to last you several irl days generally. Oh, and some bone meal.
Why is this a problem? Scenario 2 is not only more fun, but also requires a lot more working hours to get usefulness out of. As it's been said so many times before, if you don't like it, don't use it.
I'm just saying that Notch doing more work changing the spawning algorithm is not worth it, and I don't think balance is an issue for minecraft at all(and I'm not saying everybody thinks this way). And I still don't get when you say "imbalanced". Are you also against booster minecarts, redstone resetting waterflows, and all those great inventions that people have came up with using exploits? Why is a mob farm so special compared to these other inventions?
Yes, most of the designs are not original and I do understand that there are only a few people making new designs that are worth calling "inventions". But that's the same with any other feature in minecraft.
yes, but that is all because of people thinking up of these contraptions. Would you also say that branch mining on layer 12 is also an exploit? There is a significant difference of effect between these two, but both are using game mechanics to your advantage.
well, intentionally meaning that when you build your mob farm, you are aware of the consequences of the so called "breaking the balance" of the game.
yes, but that is not what you will have a choice on. The developers will do it for you.
If you don't like mob farms in beta, well too bad. you should wait for the developers to fix it.
Or maybe you can go talk to Notch himself. But crying in the forums to try to persuade people would not do anything.
Your example is terrible, how about doing 24 hours after the mob grinder is built and the other person already has food on hand. Oh that's right, the mob grinder will outstrip the player in an hour, automatically i might add.
Your example is akin to comparing digging a mine with a shovel or a backhoe, it might take 8 hours to build the backhoe and then you put 1 hour of mining, then compare it to someone that was digging with a shovel for 9 hours. Obviously the shovel will still win, so why aren't we all digging with shovels?
so basically you're telling them that their work is too efficient at what it's supposed to do that you want to change it so they get less of what they are deserved to get?
The thing I love about minecraft and this forum is that people come up with amazing contraptions that I would have never thought of myself, but seems that isn't the case with all people
Nope, we're telling them that putting in a set amount of work to reap an effortlessly infinite supply of items is imbalanced.
I'm not even sure to begin on that statement, when did i ever say i wanted to stop people being inventive? It's like saying a cop wants people to stop driving cars because he pulls them over. I just want stuff balanced that doesn't at all mean i don't want people to keep inventing stuff, inventions just need to be regulated.
Notch actually has patched a few exploits like getting tons of sticks out of breaking boats, that people figured out while making other inventions. The difference between real life and a game, the game is still being balanced, whatever the hell made real life is already done balancing it.
then surely your also against booster carts, since they give infinite source of energy without the use of coal
Yeah I do understand what your trying to say. But, I still believe that Notch shouldn't go all the way trying to "fix" the spawnings of mobs just to stop the Mob farms. I will accept however, if Notch changes the spawning algorithm for a different purpose which effects how the mob farms work right now. I said this in my first post
then I have nothing more to say to you. you have a consistent argument, and I guess that's fine
Which is what I've been suggesting the whole time. I know you weren't talking to me, but it's all the same.
He shouldn't "fix" spawning, as there's nothing immediately wrong with it. But when people start abusing the spawning algorithm, it brings to light a flaw in it- that they will constantly spawn in darkness without fail. So a change is in order.
And it seems like all the people who popped in with "this is still alive" and "IT'S A GAME DEAL WITH IT /THREAD" got their wish granted.