Personally, I'm not sure if making lanterns require glowstone dust is a good idea because that basically means you have to get the best tools in the game (the Nether requires an obsidian portal, obsidian requires a diamond pick)
No, all you need is three iron ingots (well, four: one for the flint & steel). I've found plenty of lava lakes well above the traditional lava layer (including several on the surface), and still it doesn't take the best tools to get to the lava layer if necessary. So it is most definitely possible to create a portal without finding a single diamond, and if you're lucky without venturing more than a few meters into a cave.
But as I said, you need a diamond pick to mine obsidian. Unless you expect people to purposely break obsidian into a portal shape from its original location with their fists (or an otherwise inadequate tool).
Quote from Alaric »
Quote from Adam222 »
before you can get permanent lighting.
As opposed to getting a near-infinite source of permanent lighting within one or two minutes of starting the game?
I assumed that eventually, torches would become impermanent and burn out. Lanterns would thus be the solution for those who wished a light source that would stay lit while they went on extended trips-- or otherwise didn't need to be replaced if they for some reason had a limited supply of coal or the flint&steel (which I remember notch saying he planned on the flint&steel being able to relight torches when they burn out). Once you had access to it, you would want to light your houses and frequently-used passages and stuff with lanterns or other permanent lighting.
Quote from Alaric »
Quote from Adam222 »
If that's going to be the case, why not just make glowstone blocks drop the block themselves instead of 1/9 of a block in the form of the glowstone dust? If people still want lanterns, the recipe can use the block instead, but it seems like a HUGE price for style to make the block form of a light source cost 9x as much of its rarest component
I'd agree if Notch had stopped and said, "The glowstone blocks ARE your lanterns" and made the torches finite. I don't agree with the "glowstone blocks are lanterns" theory is for that very reason: it's already difficult to reach the glowstone, so the 9-to-1 cost seems arbitrarily expensive (that, and torches are still infinite). If lanterns were to be powered by glowstone, I would think they would only need a single glowstone dust per recipe to make; again it would make no sense to use the block because the block itself already provides the maximum light possible.
Basically what I was going for with what I said is that lanterns should still be a 1:1 ratio-- you need to harvest at least one block of glowstone from the Nether for each lantern you want to craft-- I just also want the glowstone BLOCK to be just as, or only slightly less, available. There's no reason why the solid version of a lightsource providing just as much light (I assume) as the non-solid version should be NINE TIMES as expensive. That's why I suggested that glowstone, when destroyed, should drop its block instead of dust, and then the block would be used in the crafting recipe to produce a lantern. Perhaps a middle-ground can be reached, like the block dropping 3-4 dust per drop instead of the 1, using the same 9-dust (in this hypothetical, that would mean one block crafted for slightly more than three blocks harvested) recipe as it does now, and then the lantern using a glowstone ball or something made with 4 dust (slightly less than one lantern per block harvested for this hypothetical). The glowstone block would be more expensive as a stylistic choice, but it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive, and still more efficient than it is now.
Quote from Alaric »
Quote from Adam222 »
compared to a more everyday-convenient lantern.
Everyday, convenient lanterns are not infinite. For that matter, neither are everyday, convenient torches. Comparing Minecraft to real-life sets up very tenuous analogies and is not recommended.
I did not mean to imply any comparison to real life at all-- I was still referring to my impression of what a lantern would be in the game. By every-day convenient, I meant craft-place-done, then move it at no loss of resources if you're not happy-- as opposed to the glowstone block, where if you place it, you can't get it back without a SIGNIFICANT loss of resources, and you have to make sure to place it somewhere out of the way, or integrate it into the walls or floors of your house.
Well this is why. Notch still hasn't fixxed the glitch that portals are unable to work in SMP multiplayer survival so some servers that admins dont like to hack objects to build wont be able to collect anything from the Nether. So the biggest glitches that i know of and mostly want to be fixxed are the fishing poles in multiplayer and the portals.
Well this is why. Notch still hasn't fixxed the glitch that portals are unable to work in SMP multiplayer survival so some servers that admins dont like to hack objects to build wont be able to collect anything from the Nether. So the biggest glitches that i know of and mostly want to be fixxed are the fishing poles in multiplayer and the portals.
Well he shouldn't make lanterns require materials from the Nether in the first place. What's next, we'll need to build a rocket ship to go to the Moon to get the materials to make a sowing machine? It's a lantern, it's not a magical sword of adamantium and kryptonite. There's no reason to go to some magical world to get materials for mere lanterns. They should be craftable with earhtly materials, like so:
= wick.
And wicks would craft like so:
[] []
[] []
[] []
= cotton.
= oil.
And you'd get oil from crushing fish, wheat, or seeds with cobble in the crafting table. Voila, logical lanterns.
What is the point of the new lantern system? Nobody really wants it...
i do. Survival should be survival, not how magnificent of a structure you can build. Building in survival should be strategic not aesthetic.
In addition there should be starvation, exposure ( freezing) weight limits( which would actually give you a reason to build a mine cart( i've never found a reason to build one.).
Peaceful/creative mode should allow one to build whatever structures they like
I love you <3
I strongly agree with you, survival is about strategic not aesthetics.
And the starvation and exposure stuff is also some great ideas. There are people who think it would be too easy because of the lack of difficulty in getting food, but well, it's a variety, something more in the game, so I think it would be awesome.
Quote from Adam222 »
(the Nether requires an obsidian portal, obsidian requires a diamond pick)
I don't know about you, but for me, obsidian requires only one or two buckets, that's three or six iron ingots.
What is the point of the new lantern system? Nobody really wants it...
i do. Survival should be survival, not how magnificent of a structure you can build. Building in survival should be strategic not aesthetic.
In addition there should be starvation, exposure ( freezing) weight limits( which would actually give you a reason to build a mine cart( i've never found a reason to build one.).
Peaceful/creative mode should allow one to build whatever structures they like
I love you <3
I strongly agree with you, survival is about strategic not aesthetics.
I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive.
Just don't do something that messes one or the other up.
I always loved the balance between survival & adventure and creativity & aesthetic. Don't mess with either.
And the starvation and exposure stuff is also some great ideas. There are people who think it would be too easy because of the lack of difficulty in getting food, but well, it's a variety, something more in the game, so I think it would be awesome.
Eh, having to eat constantly would be kind of annoying.
Oh yay, let's have fun keeping this meter from dropping to zero.
No, all you need is three iron ingots (well, four: one for the flint & steel). I've found plenty of lava lakes well above the traditional lava layer (including several on the surface), and still it doesn't take the best tools to get to the lava layer if necessary. So it is most definitely possible to create a portal without finding a single diamond, and if you're lucky without venturing more than a few meters into a cave.
But as I said, you need a diamond pick to mine obsidian. Unless you expect people to purposely break obsidian into a portal shape from its original location with their fists (or an otherwise inadequate tool).
No, we expect people to use their heads and craft three iron into a bucket. Use that to pick up some lava, and then use water to turn placed lava into obsidian. Then you just have to make sure you've created the obsidian in the right layout, craft a flint & steel, and... voila!
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Theevilpplz is so fabulous, hetrosexual men turn bi when he passes by.
Speaking of Better Light, it boggles my mind as to why Notch hasn't implemented that mod into vanilla Minecraft.
He said in a recent Live Stream thing with Coestar that he doesn't like the Better Light mod. That's probably why it's not in the game yet (and probably won't be without mods).
Some of this has already been touched on in this thread however I am going to reiterate some things.
It is my understanding that making The Nether work for SMP will require such admins to run a separate server and world file dedicated to the nether. As such any server supporting the nether will have half as many user slots or will need twice as many resources which means a lot more money out of pocket, just for nether access.
Currently on single player, when you use a portal to visit the nether the normal game shuts off, you will notice it says saving chunks, stimulating world, etc. It then loads the nether for that world as a separate world file.
So any item which requires anything from the nether will be impossible without mods on SMP and Notch doesn't like mods, so it is doubtful he would take an action whereas the only recourse would be for people to use mods to fix it.
Also a great number of people play Minecraft for the creative aspect of it, and use torches in a lot of ways where relighting or replacing them, or in numbers where lanterns would just be stupid. It will lead to raging, and then inventory/client/server modding.
I hope Notch is insightful enough to make it a configurable option whenever he does introduce it, so both sides can be happy. I personally do not want my light sources to burn out even in singleplayer where I have nether access. However I can understand others wanting it, along with wanting the need to eat/drink and all that. :smile.gif:
Speaking of Better Light, it boggles my mind as to why Notch hasn't implemented that mod into vanilla Minecraft.
He said in a recent Live Stream thing with Coestar that he doesn't like the Better Light mod. That's probably why it's not in the game yet (and probably won't be without mods).
Aye, what a lot of people don't seem to realize is Notch made Minecraft look exactly this way for a reason. He loves pixel art and he wanted a world that looks like grades of pixels. The smooth lighting of BetterLight completely throws that vision of his out the window. I personally love BetterLight and think it enhances his vision but I completely understand if he disagrees. It is the same reason why textures are 16x16, why animals hop around, and why the sun and moon are square. :smile.gif:
There's no reason why the solid version of a lightsource providing just as much light (I assume) as the non-solid version should be NINE TIMES as expensive.
Meh, I wouldn't care. Function over form for me. If I'm that crazy about aesthetics I'll either switch to peaceful or hack some in. Which never happens.
Quote from Adam222 »
I was still referring to my impression of what a lantern would be in the game. By every-day convenient, I meant craft-place-done, then move it at no loss of resources if you're not happy
Ah, okay. I jumped the gun there, my bad. I was thinking "convenience = obtainability" context.
Quote from Adam222 »
as opposed to the glowstone block, where if you place it, you can't get it back without a SIGNIFICANT loss of resources, and you have to make sure to place it somewhere out of the way, or integrate it into the walls or floors of your house.
I agree with this also. Which is yet another reason I am disinclined to subscribe to the "glowstone blocks are lanterns" theory. Thus fueling my speculation that there will indeed be some sort of lantern update.
Who knows, maybe we're all wrong. Although I've said I don't believe that glowstone blocks are supposed to "be" our lanterns, Notch may pull something similar in scope instead of a literal lantern.
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Quote from CubeJackal »
[Notch] <- me
[stone] [stone] [stone]
[stone] [stone] [stone] [stone] <- darkness below here
[stone] [stone] [stone] [stone]
[stone] [stone] [stone] [stone] [stone] [Skeleton] <- some faggy skeleton
I think he is probably going to do one in beta. It will probably be that torches are finite and lanterns(witch you can carry and they give more lite) are infinite but will probably be more expensiv.
Ok dude your spelling makes me wanna die. Its not "witch" its which, and how can something be "expensiv" in a game with no money? Also "lite" is spelled "light".
Mod edit: Please stay on topic. If you don't have anything to add, do not post.
grammar nazi...
ON TOPIC:Notch is a busy man.
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Looking for a clan..to fill the hole..in my foot...
Quote from aztech101 »
minecraft is like life, you start by beating wood, explore a lot of new things, settle down a bit, finally get that diamond, and then you life starts to suck and you go through hell
Personally, I don't care if lanterns never make it into the game. I'm not keen on the idea of constantly having to refresh my light sources until I can find enough items to make Lanterns. Especially if these items involve iron (which is already used in a ton of places) or nether materials.
That said, I can see why people are keen in the idea. Like wall-climbing spiders, it adds danger to the game and another layer of putting the "survival" in survival mode.
What I'd like to see is it implemented as a difficulty level. Currently (and correct me if I'm wrong, because I only play on Normal [and Peaceful on the computer with no sound]) difficulty really doesn't have any meaning beyond the mobs being tougher. If torches burnt out on hard mode, it'd make things harder even after you've constructed your mob-proof castle.
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This forum ticked me off so much I went to random.org and set my password to something I'll never be able to remember, then switched my password reset to a throwaway.
According to a recent tweet, lanterns are "postponed". Like several others, I suspect that lanterns will require Nether ingredients, in part because the Nether doesn't work in SMP yet, and there would be mass rage if lanterns were implemented without it. According to Jens, the Nether doesn't work in SMP due to engine limitations.
Back when Minecraft was still in Alpha, there was a topic about lanterns and torches. I posted this, but got no response:
Quote from TheApathetic »
I have no problem with finite torches, as long as their duration isn't ridiculously short and there is some indication of approximately how much time is left.
However, I am concerned about lanterns as to their usefulness vis-a-vis other infinite-duration light sources. If, as per speculation, lanterns require lightstone dust, there is already an issue. On your way to the Nether to get it, you find (at least) two other infinite light sources, lava and netherstone. Even factoring in issues with portability (you can only carry one lava bucket per inventory slot), usability (netherstone requires a flint & steel), and safety (both require a barrier to prevent accidentally burning yourself and cannot be readily used in wooden structures), they are still good enough for most situations and rather plentiful once you find them.
I suspect that lanterns may need some special benefit in order to stand out from other infinite light sources. If this is the case, I suggest that lanterns get a larger radius before the light starts tapering off, meaning you need fewer of them to light a large area compared to lava/netherstone/etc.
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Disclaimer: user may not actually be apathetic. ApatheticMods (Toggle Blocks, Secret Switches, Sign Edit)
According to a recent tweet, lanterns are "postponed". Like several others, I suspect that lanterns will require Nether ingredients, in part because the Nether doesn't work in SMP yet, and there would be mass rage if lanterns were implemented without it. According to Jens, the Nether doesn't work in SMP due to engine limitations.
Back when Minecraft was still in Alpha, there was a topic about lanterns and torches. I posted this, but got no response:
Quote from TheApathetic »
I have no problem with finite torches, as long as their duration isn't ridiculously short and there is some indication of approximately how much time is left.
However, I am concerned about lanterns as to their usefulness vis-a-vis other infinite-duration light sources. If, as per speculation, lanterns require lightstone dust, there is already an issue. On your way to the Nether to get it, you find (at least) two other infinite light sources, lava and netherstone. Even factoring in issues with portability (you can only carry one lava bucket per inventory slot), usability (netherstone requires a flint & steel), and safety (both require a barrier to prevent accidentally burning yourself and cannot be readily used in wooden structures), they are still good enough for most situations and rather plentiful once you find them.
I suspect that lanterns may need some special benefit in order to stand out from other infinite light sources. If this is the case, I suggest that lanterns get a larger radius before the light starts tapering off, meaning you need fewer of them to light a large area compared to lava/netherstone/etc.
Last I heard, lanterns were postponed because the current system of lighting in the game doesn't allow for a portable source of light. The supposition that lanterns require Nether resources is pure speculation.
That being said, it stinks that the Nether doesn't work with SMP yet. I'm thinking server-server portals will probably arrive first, and then the workaround would be to have a normal and Nether server running concurrently with portals between.
There's also the problem that it takes a while for some players to find even the three diamonds necessary to make a pick and mine obsidian. It would personally tick me off if I had to get to the nether first for my light sources to stop running out. There's a concept known as flow when you're dealing with games. It means that a game is designed so that more advanced and adventurous players will have a harder experience, but the "n00bs" per say will have an easier experience, therefore maximizing fun for all groups. Making infinite light supply an end-game object sort of defies that principle of flow.
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Choose your words wisely.
Defend your words flexibly.
Change your words fittingly.
Let prejudice, popular opinion, and preconception be free from your judgments.
There's also the problem that it takes a while for some players to find even the three diamonds necessary to make a pick and mine obsidian.
True, obsidian requires a diamond pick to mine, but you're thinking too inside the box. A Nether portal only requires obsidian in a specific pattern. The first method of constructing such a pattern is to place the blocks after mining them. The other is to cast the obsidian in place by puring lava into a structural mold. The former requires a three diamonds; the latter requires three iron ingots.
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Quote from CubeJackal »
[Notch] <- me
[stone] [stone] [stone]
[stone] [stone] [stone] [stone] <- darkness below here
[stone] [stone] [stone] [stone]
[stone] [stone] [stone] [stone] [stone] [Skeleton] <- some faggy skeleton
I think he is probably going to do one in beta. It will probably be that torches are finite and lanterns(witch you can carry and they give more lite) are infinite but will probably be more expensiv.
But as I said, you need a diamond pick to mine obsidian. Unless you expect people to purposely break obsidian into a portal shape from its original location with their fists (or an otherwise inadequate tool).
I assumed that eventually, torches would become impermanent and burn out. Lanterns would thus be the solution for those who wished a light source that would stay lit while they went on extended trips-- or otherwise didn't need to be replaced if they for some reason had a limited supply of coal or the flint&steel (which I remember notch saying he planned on the flint&steel being able to relight torches when they burn out). Once you had access to it, you would want to light your houses and frequently-used passages and stuff with lanterns or other permanent lighting.
Basically what I was going for with what I said is that lanterns should still be a 1:1 ratio-- you need to harvest at least one block of glowstone from the Nether for each lantern you want to craft-- I just also want the glowstone BLOCK to be just as, or only slightly less, available. There's no reason why the solid version of a lightsource providing just as much light (I assume) as the non-solid version should be NINE TIMES as expensive. That's why I suggested that glowstone, when destroyed, should drop its block instead of dust, and then the block would be used in the crafting recipe to produce a lantern. Perhaps a middle-ground can be reached, like the block dropping 3-4 dust per drop instead of the 1, using the same 9-dust (in this hypothetical, that would mean one block crafted for slightly more than three blocks harvested) recipe as it does now, and then the lantern using a glowstone ball or something made with 4 dust (slightly less than one lantern per block harvested for this hypothetical). The glowstone block would be more expensive as a stylistic choice, but it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive, and still more efficient than it is now.
I did not mean to imply any comparison to real life at all-- I was still referring to my impression of what a lantern would be in the game. By every-day convenient, I meant craft-place-done, then move it at no loss of resources if you're not happy-- as opposed to the glowstone block, where if you place it, you can't get it back without a SIGNIFICANT loss of resources, and you have to make sure to place it somewhere out of the way, or integrate it into the walls or floors of your house.
That's kind of stupid.
All he has to do is draw it up in 3D, texture it, make a craft scheme for it, and make it give a higher light radius.
It would be a nice aesthetic alternative.
Well he shouldn't make lanterns require materials from the Nether in the first place. What's next, we'll need to build a rocket ship to go to the Moon to get the materials to make a sowing machine? It's a lantern, it's not a magical sword of adamantium and kryptonite. There's no reason to go to some magical world to get materials for mere lanterns. They should be craftable with earhtly materials, like so:
= wick.
And wicks would craft like so:
[] []
[] []
[] []
= cotton.
= oil.
And you'd get oil from crushing fish, wheat, or seeds with cobble in the crafting table. Voila, logical lanterns.
I love you <3
I strongly agree with you, survival is about strategic not aesthetics.
And the starvation and exposure stuff is also some great ideas. There are people who think it would be too easy because of the lack of difficulty in getting food, but well, it's a variety, something more in the game, so I think it would be awesome.
I don't know about you, but for me, obsidian requires only one or two buckets, that's three or six iron ingots.
I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive.
Just don't do something that messes one or the other up.
I always loved the balance between survival & adventure and creativity & aesthetic. Don't mess with either.
Eh, having to eat constantly would be kind of annoying.
Oh yay, let's have fun keeping this meter from dropping to zero.
Thankfully Notch has already rejected this idea.
No, we expect people to use their heads and craft three iron into a bucket. Use that to pick up some lava, and then use water to turn placed lava into obsidian. Then you just have to make sure you've created the obsidian in the right layout, craft a flint & steel, and... voila!
He said in a recent Live Stream thing with Coestar that he doesn't like the Better Light mod. That's probably why it's not in the game yet (and probably won't be without mods).
My humble LPs can be found here.
It is my understanding that making The Nether work for SMP will require such admins to run a separate server and world file dedicated to the nether. As such any server supporting the nether will have half as many user slots or will need twice as many resources which means a lot more money out of pocket, just for nether access.
Currently on single player, when you use a portal to visit the nether the normal game shuts off, you will notice it says saving chunks, stimulating world, etc. It then loads the nether for that world as a separate world file.
So any item which requires anything from the nether will be impossible without mods on SMP and Notch doesn't like mods, so it is doubtful he would take an action whereas the only recourse would be for people to use mods to fix it.
Also a great number of people play Minecraft for the creative aspect of it, and use torches in a lot of ways where relighting or replacing them, or in numbers where lanterns would just be stupid. It will lead to raging, and then inventory/client/server modding.
I hope Notch is insightful enough to make it a configurable option whenever he does introduce it, so both sides can be happy. I personally do not want my light sources to burn out even in singleplayer where I have nether access. However I can understand others wanting it, along with wanting the need to eat/drink and all that. :smile.gif:
-Aedda
Aye, what a lot of people don't seem to realize is Notch made Minecraft look exactly this way for a reason. He loves pixel art and he wanted a world that looks like grades of pixels. The smooth lighting of BetterLight completely throws that vision of his out the window. I personally love BetterLight and think it enhances his vision but I completely understand if he disagrees. It is the same reason why textures are 16x16, why animals hop around, and why the sun and moon are square. :smile.gif:
-Aedda
Meh, I wouldn't care. Function over form for me. If I'm that crazy about aesthetics I'll either switch to peaceful or hack some in. Which never happens.
Ah, okay. I jumped the gun there, my bad. I was thinking "convenience = obtainability" context.
I agree with this also. Which is yet another reason I am disinclined to subscribe to the "glowstone blocks are lanterns" theory. Thus fueling my speculation that there will indeed be some sort of lantern update.
Who knows, maybe we're all wrong. Although I've said I don't believe that glowstone blocks are supposed to "be" our lanterns, Notch may pull something similar in scope instead of a literal lantern.
grammar nazi...
ON TOPIC:Notch is a busy man.
That said, I can see why people are keen in the idea. Like wall-climbing spiders, it adds danger to the game and another layer of putting the "survival" in survival mode.
What I'd like to see is it implemented as a difficulty level. Currently (and correct me if I'm wrong, because I only play on Normal [and Peaceful on the computer with no sound]) difficulty really doesn't have any meaning beyond the mobs being tougher. If torches burnt out on hard mode, it'd make things harder even after you've constructed your mob-proof castle.
Back when Minecraft was still in Alpha, there was a topic about lanterns and torches. I posted this, but got no response:
ApatheticMods (Toggle Blocks, Secret Switches, Sign Edit)
Last I heard, lanterns were postponed because the current system of lighting in the game doesn't allow for a portable source of light. The supposition that lanterns require Nether resources is pure speculation.
That being said, it stinks that the Nether doesn't work with SMP yet. I'm thinking server-server portals will probably arrive first, and then the workaround would be to have a normal and Nether server running concurrently with portals between.
Defend your words flexibly.
Change your words fittingly.
Let prejudice, popular opinion, and preconception be free from your judgments.
True, obsidian requires a diamond pick to mine, but you're thinking too inside the box. A Nether portal only requires obsidian in a specific pattern. The first method of constructing such a pattern is to place the blocks after mining them. The other is to cast the obsidian in place by puring lava into a structural mold. The former requires a three diamonds; the latter requires three iron ingots.
Yeah thats what I was thinking too.
Too late it was confirmed to be made with nether materials