True, obsidian requires a diamond pick to mine, but you're thinking too inside the box. A Nether portal only requires obsidian in a specific pattern. The first method of constructing such a pattern is to place the blocks after mining them. The other is to cast the obsidian in place by puring lava into a structural mold. The former requires a three diamonds; the latter requires three iron ingots.
That seems like a good advanced strategy (one I admittedly did not consider). Is this going to be the "expected" way that the average player will construct their first portal, knowing to do so as soon as they have an iron bucket?
I can understand why the lantern becomes moot in a practical sense by the time you reach the Nether. With Netherstone and lava both more available as options for permanent lighting (in non-flammable homes, at least), it's understandable that glowstone is left in the dust. However, lanterns, I think, would still be desirable in a stylistic and convenient-to-place sense, as I assume that just as with torches you can just place it on the wall or floor and it won't get in the way or cause danger to you or visitors. Netherstone and lava, while being easier to collect in the Nether (and lava being similarly easy to collect, though somewhat harder to find, in the surface world), are harder to safely use in large rooms (where you may need to light the middle), and dangerous to play with near wooden, wool, or plant-y areas.
As I said in an earlier post, I think that glowstone definitely needs to be easier to collect. As an alteration of my previously-suggested solution for the issue of glowstone blocks being woefully inefficient to harvest and use, I would say that a good solution would be to have glowstone drop multiple units of glowstone dust (4-5 dust per block seems a reasonable amount). Lanterns would, along with other materials such as glass and perhaps gold (or iron, but that's overused already as many people have pointed out), use 4 glowstone dust in a "glowstone ball" crafted from four glowstone dust in a small square, while the glowstone block would use a full 9 units of dust in a large square as normal. This would reduce the cost of a full glowstone block to around two blocks harvested from the Nether, with a half-block (4-5 dust) return if you choose to remove it-- while lanterns would require slightly less than one block of glowstone harvested from the nether for each lantern someone wishes to craft, and would probably return itself (a full return, nothing lost) when removed, just as torches do now.
SUMMARY
To Alaric: Fair enough, it is *possible* to create a Nether portal before finding diamonds. But should a new player be expected to know to do that, or should that simply be considered an advanced player's strategy-- sequence breaking, in a sense?
I don't have any objections with impermanent torches personally, provided the lanterns are introduced ahead of time so people can get permanent light on their most-frequented structures and areas.
I think that lanterns should only require the player to harvest one glowstone block from the Nether for each lantern they wish to produce, and I think a full glowstone block should return about half the dust needed to recraft it (that is, 4-5 units).
I think lanterns should use glowstone despite there being easier-to-collect permanent light sources like lava and netherstone. Both lava and netherstone are difficult to use safely in large rooms (where the middle can't be lit sufficiently just from wall lights) and nearly impossible to use safely in flammable rooms. Lanterns can be safely placed anywhere in any room without prior planning or structural changes, while netherstone and lava do not have such a luxury attached. Netherstone also requires you to spend a use of a flint&steel for each one you light, and lava restricts your carrying capacity to the number of buckets you have.
Glowstone blocks in my hypothetical "this is how I would do it" scenario would probably only be rarely used, being chosen for their appearance as an aesthetic choice, but at least would not be prohibitively expensive compared to the more efficient light sources, and certainly not as difficult to amass as they are currently.
As far as I know, he said he was gonna do it in the Halloween update, and it didn't happen. And I don't remember hearing him say anything about doing it after that, so I think it's just not gonna happen.
From notch's Twitter on January 13th.
@notch No lantern :<? was the lantern/non everlasting torches idea scraped?
@HolyMane Postponed
EDIT: IMO Lanterns are alright a long as they look significantly different from Torches. It could make a nice change to the look of things.
Secondly, there could be 2 levels of lantern, the "weak" version which uses a torch, and the "strong" version which uses glowstone dust. The strong one, obviously, would provide more light than the "weak" version, which could be weaker than torches to provide balance and an incentive to get glowstone lanterns:
Unlike torches, lanterns should be able to be hung from the ceiling, it would be both asthetically pleasing (and clearing floor space) and practical for large rooms with ceilings that aren't exceedingly high.
Also, finite torches should decrease in brightness to a set minimum, maybe decreasing by 1 per MC day to a minimum of 7 (the same as redstone torches), giving an MC week before they no longer prevent hostile mob spawns in their immediate area, but at the same time, still illuminating enough as to somewhat prevent mobs from jumping out at you in the dark. The degradation period could also give a good hint to miners how long they've been underground, and how long a torch needs before reignition. Flint and steel can reignite a luminally deficient torch.
Also, the blueprint:
[] ]" title="-<->" />
[]
( ]" title="-<->" /> is string, is a lantern)
Could craft a carryable lantern (it could also serve as the aforementioned hanging lantern when placed on a ceiling face).
I would also like to switch from torches to lanterns. But I do see an issue with the cost of materials/effort vs our perceived rewards. I'd imagine it would have to be something like this... I'd even go so far as to suggest two different lanterns to ease the strain on the different players.
Wooden Lantern
[] []
-Benefits:
---Cheap and relatively easy to acquire.
---Process makes 4 lanterns.
---Illumination area is equal to that of a torch.
-Cons:
---Not as bright as Golden Lanterns
Golden Lantern
[] []
= Lightstone/Glowstone Dust
-Benefits:
---Lights up a wider/bigger area with fewer lanterns.
---Process makes 4 lanterns.
-Cons:
---Expensive and difficult to acquire. But not nearly as much as a lightstone/glowstone block.
Both lanterns however need to be able to be used as hand-held sources of light. Its do-able, Notch just seems unsure how to go about it.
you know if he ever did the lantern update to me torches would pretty much be useless. Lanterns would be only used in my home.
As for caves I'd be using netherstone and lighting them. No need to waste mats I can use on something else and fire gives much more light than torches anyway.
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If you ever drop your keys into a pool of lava, forget about them, cuz man, they're gone...
you know if he ever did the lantern update to me torches would pretty much be useless. Lanterns would be only used in my home.
As for caves I'd be using netherstone and lighting them. No need to waste mats I can use on something else and fire gives much more light than torches anyway.
Lol, similar here...I use glass lava strips or glass floors over lava. This update would be negligible to me as I only use torches in a few laddered areas(that I haven't lava stripped yet), outside, and when i first go into a cave. Other than that I dont use them.
Oh yay, let's have fun keeping this meter from dropping to zero.
Thankfully Notch has already rejected this idea.
That's why he should add the survival slider thing for people who are affraid of some more challenge in minecraft.
It's not an issue of challenge, it's an issue of boring, bland, tedious ideas. I'd love some more challenge, but it has to be fun. Keeping a hunger meter from dropping to zero does not strike me as an interesting or fun addition to the gameplay dynamic. It strikes me as arbitrary and unimmersive.
why is everyone upset if this would happen??
it would make the game more interesting and challenging ... Its called survival for a reason :/
I can only speak for myself here, but I don't view temporary torches as adding to the challenge... I view it as adding to tedium. From the moment you start the game until you can craft a lantern, you have to go back and forth re-lighting your complex. I like to build large underground complexes and I've had horrible luck finding lava. So if lanterns require nether material, for example, I'm in for a lot of base maintenance.
That said, I don't begrudge anyone else the opportunity. I can see how it'd be thrilling to be spelunking deep under the ground, down to your last torch, flickering in the breeze :smile.gif:
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This forum ticked me off so much I went to random.org and set my password to something I'll never be able to remember, then switched my password reset to a throwaway.
As for caves I'd be using netherstone and lighting them. No need to waste mats I can use on something else and fire gives much more light than torches anyway.
Yes, it would suck if you wasted coal on torches. Because you definitely need all the coal you can get for smelting.
Given that you need to "use" two items (place netherstone, then switch to flint&steel and light the netherstone) every time you want to make a netherstone fire, I personally think it's much more convenient to just right click to place a torch. You can just drop torches while walking with no trouble-- unless you're REALLY good, you'll probably have to stop in order to drop the netherstone and light it.
Quote from atiaxi »
I can only speak for myself here, but I don't view temporary torches as adding to the challenge[. . .]you have to go back and forth re-lighting your complex.
I don't think it's so much that your torches go out, so much as the cave becomes dark again, meaning monsters can respawn there. In that sense, temporary torches increase the difficulty because you can encounter hostile mobs in areas that you've explored in the past but not maintained.
That said, I can understand why people would disagree with the idea of not having any kind of permanent lighting until they find lava. I would not object to a low-light permanent "coal" or "oil" lantern that, as an earlier poster suggested, use early resources like wood and coal to create a lamp that produces less light than a torch, but is permanent like a lantern.
Assuming notch added finite torches tomorrow and i had to start a new game i would simply corner myself off adn start digging downward till i found lava, on the way id'e likely obtain a lot of :Coal:. Once i hit lava i would likely have a good bit of to make buckets and from there one has access to unlimited light in the form of netherack. It's not as manageable and build friendly as the nethergold/ lightstone inserted into some sort of lantern that can be placed but that would be my strategy for dealing limitations imposed by finite torches.
with the abundance of wood we have even greater access to fuel. Perhaps i play to conservatively, most of my structures are maybe 10 by 10 and compartmentalized with doors.
Notch has previously said that carryable lights won't be possible with the current lighting system. Also, he did say that lanterns are low on his priority list.
From what ive seen, certain mods have been able to do it, so why cant notch?
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If anything I thought that squids were rare
But I said "Nah, forget it, yo homes, to Bel-Air!"
I think he is probably going to do one in beta. It will probably be that torches are finite and lanterns(witch you can carry and they give more lite) are infinite but will probably be more expensiv.
Notch twittered that he will not implement any source of light, which you can carry. Because it was too much coding. Which i dont get because there already are mods supporting that
Can't be that much coding, Isn't there plenty of mods that do the same thing? infact, why do modders seem to be able to make tons more stuff, in the time it takes notch to make a few things?
I hope that they never get in the game, due to some technical issue or another. I could really care less. I'm perfectly happy with torches just as they are now, thanks.
That said, if lanterns do make it into the game, I won't ever bother with them unless they're incredibly easy to make. I'll just use Jack O' Lanterns. ;o) They're essentially glowstone in the regular world. Or did everyone forget about them?
(By the way, if you don't mind an orange floor, they make perfect lighting for a structure, and don't look half bad in certain designs, as you'll only see the tops. They can kinda be made to look like floral carpeting.) Not to mention that the faces of Jack O' Lanterns face you when you place them, so you can always hide them against other blocks if you don't want that.
Screw going into the Nether, for anything. Screw wasting a valuable resource like iron on lighting that already works just fine now with torches. I shall adapt by using said Jack O' Lanterns, if necessary. Or resort to using a mod to get my torches back to what they should be.
Screw going into the Nether, for anything. Screw wasting a valuable resource like iron on lighting that already works just fine now with torches. I shall adapt by using said Jack O' Lanterns, if necessary. Or resort to using a mod to get my torches back to what they should be.
I agree here. I see deteriorating torches as very much a solution looking for a problem. Look at how many people here are stocking up on Torches for the change over. Nobody WANTS to be short of unlimited sources of light, so why would you take the time to break something that people want and already have?
Screw going into the Nether, for anything. Screw wasting a valuable resource like iron on lighting that already works just fine now with torches. I shall adapt by using said Jack O' Lanterns, if necessary. Or resort to using a mod to get my torches back to what they should be.
I agree here. I see deteriorating torches as very much a solution looking for a problem. Look at how many people here are stocking up on Torches for the change over. Nobody WANTS to be short of unlimited sources of light, so why would you take the time to break something that people want and already have?
I want it. Imagine wanting a challenge in the game to make your mega structures more impressive! So don't say people don't want them, the only people that don't are the people that should be playing creative.
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Quote from mjcabooseblu »
Muncher is right, listen to him, he can cure the blind and make paraplegics walk.
That seems like a good advanced strategy (one I admittedly did not consider). Is this going to be the "expected" way that the average player will construct their first portal, knowing to do so as soon as they have an iron bucket?
I can understand why the lantern becomes moot in a practical sense by the time you reach the Nether. With Netherstone and lava both more available as options for permanent lighting (in non-flammable homes, at least), it's understandable that glowstone is left in the dust. However, lanterns, I think, would still be desirable in a stylistic and convenient-to-place sense, as I assume that just as with torches you can just place it on the wall or floor and it won't get in the way or cause danger to you or visitors. Netherstone and lava, while being easier to collect in the Nether (and lava being similarly easy to collect, though somewhat harder to find, in the surface world), are harder to safely use in large rooms (where you may need to light the middle), and dangerous to play with near wooden, wool, or plant-y areas.
As I said in an earlier post, I think that glowstone definitely needs to be easier to collect. As an alteration of my previously-suggested solution for the issue of glowstone blocks being woefully inefficient to harvest and use, I would say that a good solution would be to have glowstone drop multiple units of glowstone dust (4-5 dust per block seems a reasonable amount). Lanterns would, along with other materials such as glass and perhaps gold (or iron, but that's overused already as many people have pointed out), use 4 glowstone dust in a "glowstone ball" crafted from four glowstone dust in a small square, while the glowstone block would use a full 9 units of dust in a large square as normal. This would reduce the cost of a full glowstone block to around two blocks harvested from the Nether, with a half-block (4-5 dust) return if you choose to remove it-- while lanterns would require slightly less than one block of glowstone harvested from the nether for each lantern someone wishes to craft, and would probably return itself (a full return, nothing lost) when removed, just as torches do now.
SUMMARY
To Alaric: Fair enough, it is *possible* to create a Nether portal before finding diamonds. But should a new player be expected to know to do that, or should that simply be considered an advanced player's strategy-- sequence breaking, in a sense?
I don't have any objections with impermanent torches personally, provided the lanterns are introduced ahead of time so people can get permanent light on their most-frequented structures and areas.
I think that lanterns should only require the player to harvest one glowstone block from the Nether for each lantern they wish to produce, and I think a full glowstone block should return about half the dust needed to recraft it (that is, 4-5 units).
I think lanterns should use glowstone despite there being easier-to-collect permanent light sources like lava and netherstone. Both lava and netherstone are difficult to use safely in large rooms (where the middle can't be lit sufficiently just from wall lights) and nearly impossible to use safely in flammable rooms. Lanterns can be safely placed anywhere in any room without prior planning or structural changes, while netherstone and lava do not have such a luxury attached. Netherstone also requires you to spend a use of a flint&steel for each one you light, and lava restricts your carrying capacity to the number of buckets you have.
Glowstone blocks in my hypothetical "this is how I would do it" scenario would probably only be rarely used, being chosen for their appearance as an aesthetic choice, but at least would not be prohibitively expensive compared to the more efficient light sources, and certainly not as difficult to amass as they are currently.
From notch's Twitter on January 13th.
@notch No lantern :<? was the lantern/non everlasting torches idea scraped?
@HolyMane Postponed
EDIT: IMO Lanterns are alright a long as they look significantly different from Torches. It could make a nice change to the look of things.
I do.
I second this, but maybe to give gold more use:
[] []
[] []
Secondly, there could be 2 levels of lantern, the "weak" version which uses a torch, and the "strong" version which uses glowstone dust. The strong one, obviously, would provide more light than the "weak" version, which could be weaker than torches to provide balance and an incentive to get glowstone lanterns:
Glowstone Lantern: light level 15
Torch: light level 14
Torch lantern: light level 13
Unlike torches, lanterns should be able to be hung from the ceiling, it would be both asthetically pleasing (and clearing floor space) and practical for large rooms with ceilings that aren't exceedingly high.
Also, finite torches should decrease in brightness to a set minimum, maybe decreasing by 1 per MC day to a minimum of 7 (the same as redstone torches), giving an MC week before they no longer prevent hostile mob spawns in their immediate area, but at the same time, still illuminating enough as to somewhat prevent mobs from jumping out at you in the dark. The degradation period could also give a good hint to miners how long they've been underground, and how long a torch needs before reignition. Flint and steel can reignite a luminally deficient torch.
Also, the blueprint:
[] ]" title="-<->" />
[]
( ]" title="-<->" /> is string, is a lantern)
Could craft a carryable lantern (it could also serve as the aforementioned hanging lantern when placed on a ceiling face).
Just my thoughts on how to balance.
That's why he should add the survival slider thing for people who are affraid of some more challenge in minecraft.
Wooden Lantern
[] []
-Benefits:
---Cheap and relatively easy to acquire.
---Process makes 4 lanterns.
---Illumination area is equal to that of a torch.
-Cons:
---Not as bright as Golden Lanterns
Golden Lantern
[] []
= Lightstone/Glowstone Dust
-Benefits:
---Lights up a wider/bigger area with fewer lanterns.
---Process makes 4 lanterns.
-Cons:
---Expensive and difficult to acquire. But not nearly as much as a lightstone/glowstone block.
Both lanterns however need to be able to be used as hand-held sources of light. Its do-able, Notch just seems unsure how to go about it.
As for caves I'd be using netherstone and lighting them. No need to waste mats I can use on something else and fire gives much more light than torches anyway.
Lol, similar here...I use glass lava strips or glass floors over lava. This update would be negligible to me as I only use torches in a few laddered areas(that I haven't lava stripped yet), outside, and when i first go into a cave. Other than that I dont use them.
It's not an issue of challenge, it's an issue of boring, bland, tedious ideas. I'd love some more challenge, but it has to be fun. Keeping a hunger meter from dropping to zero does not strike me as an interesting or fun addition to the gameplay dynamic. It strikes me as arbitrary and unimmersive.
I want lanterns to be like this
It'll be awesome, having to actually... you know.... Do work to survive?
Also the rage that this creates will be glorious.
All the creative people will cry that making their five story Gothic style house is hard now......
I can only speak for myself here, but I don't view temporary torches as adding to the challenge... I view it as adding to tedium. From the moment you start the game until you can craft a lantern, you have to go back and forth re-lighting your complex. I like to build large underground complexes and I've had horrible luck finding lava. So if lanterns require nether material, for example, I'm in for a lot of base maintenance.
That said, I don't begrudge anyone else the opportunity. I can see how it'd be thrilling to be spelunking deep under the ground, down to your last torch, flickering in the breeze :smile.gif:
Yes, it would suck if you wasted coal on torches. Because you definitely need all the coal you can get for smelting.
Given that you need to "use" two items (place netherstone, then switch to flint&steel and light the netherstone) every time you want to make a netherstone fire, I personally think it's much more convenient to just right click to place a torch. You can just drop torches while walking with no trouble-- unless you're REALLY good, you'll probably have to stop in order to drop the netherstone and light it.
I don't think it's so much that your torches go out, so much as the cave becomes dark again, meaning monsters can respawn there. In that sense, temporary torches increase the difficulty because you can encounter hostile mobs in areas that you've explored in the past but not maintained.
That said, I can understand why people would disagree with the idea of not having any kind of permanent lighting until they find lava. I would not object to a low-light permanent "coal" or "oil" lantern that, as an earlier poster suggested, use early resources like wood and coal to create a lamp that produces less light than a torch, but is permanent like a lantern.
with the abundance of wood we have even greater access to fuel. Perhaps i play to conservatively, most of my structures are maybe 10 by 10 and compartmentalized with doors.
From what ive seen, certain mods have been able to do it, so why cant notch?
But I said "Nah, forget it, yo homes, to Bel-Air!"
Can't be that much coding, Isn't there plenty of mods that do the same thing? infact, why do modders seem to be able to make tons more stuff, in the time it takes notch to make a few things?
That said, if lanterns do make it into the game, I won't ever bother with them unless they're incredibly easy to make. I'll just use Jack O' Lanterns. ;o) They're essentially glowstone in the regular world. Or did everyone forget about them?
(By the way, if you don't mind an orange floor, they make perfect lighting for a structure, and don't look half bad in certain designs, as you'll only see the tops. They can kinda be made to look like floral carpeting.) Not to mention that the faces of Jack O' Lanterns face you when you place them, so you can always hide them against other blocks if you don't want that.
Screw going into the Nether, for anything. Screw wasting a valuable resource like iron on lighting that already works just fine now with torches. I shall adapt by using said Jack O' Lanterns, if necessary. Or resort to using a mod to get my torches back to what they should be.
My humble LPs can be found here.
I agree here. I see deteriorating torches as very much a solution looking for a problem. Look at how many people here are stocking up on Torches for the change over. Nobody WANTS to be short of unlimited sources of light, so why would you take the time to break something that people want and already have?
I want it. Imagine wanting a challenge in the game to make your mega structures more impressive! So don't say people don't want them, the only people that don't are the people that should be playing creative.