Intro
Alright, so its basically a fact that Minecraft combat system is jokingly simple. Currently, its mostly the same as it has been since alpha (excluding bows, crits and sprint attacks). It is very poorly designed, is too simple to be anything of interest and can hardly be described as a perk of the game. In PvP it is often the case that the person who can click fastest, has better gear, or is the first one to land a hit wins. Combat systems that are well designed don’t have this. So, what I propose is a system that tries to stay simple but has enough complexity to encourage more skill in battle, whether it be PvP or PvE. The current system is fine for people who enjoy the creative aspects of the game, but players who play the game and are more enthralled by the survival aspect often find the current combat system very disappointing.
And calm down, I’m not suggesting some hardcore-skyrim like RPG combat system with tons of different weapons, attacks and strategies. Just something to spice up combat a bit.
Read on for more info, and make sure you read the whole thread so you don’t miss anything.
Animations
Attack animations needs to be better, simple. Each mob needs to have an animation where it clearly shows it is about to attack you and thus gives you time to react. The player also needs a better attack animation. Currently, it looks like Steve is bashing things with the hilt of the sword/tip of the blade instead of the full blade, which is ridiculous. I suggest that he adopts a simple top-right-slash-down-to-bottom-left attack for each click. This appears in first person as well as third person. When the slash passes the crosshair, that is when the attack falls (Probably after about 0.2s). Blocking would also receive a more detailed and better looking animation, instead of the sword simply appearing at a different angle.
Attacking
Each click will make Steve perform a slash, as described above. The slash takes about 0.4 seconds to complete fully, but there will be a ‘cooldown’ time of about 0.3 seconds before you may attack again. This basically eliminates the problem of autoclick hacks in PvP battles, as clicking while the slash is incomplete will result in no extra attacks. Already, this adds a little more complexity to the combat aspect of the game and highlights the importance of timing your attacks, but not to the extreme with games such as skyrim. This now means a maximum of 1.43 attacks can be completed per second, as oppose to the current 10 or so plus per second. I also propose a change to critical hits. The falling crit still exists, but now is only activated after you fall at least 3 blocks. The new way to critical hit from the ground is to ‘charge’ your shot like you would with a bow. It would take 3 seconds to fully charge and deal 50% more damage, as well as dealing slightly more knockback. Releasing the attack before one second would do the same damage as a regular swing, and releasing it between 1 and 3 seconds will do 25% more damage. This attack would reduce your hunger and saturation points, and there would be a slightly longer ‘cooldown’ time before you may attack again (0.4s). The current sprint-attack system would remain as it is (but would have a slightly longer cooldown), as would bow and arrow combat.
Blocking
I’m not going to propose anything major or complex here. Blocking would for the most part stay the same, but if you manage to time your block between 0.15 and 0.25 seconds after your opponent swings, it will block 80% of damage. When this 'perfect block' is achieved, both players in the fight will flash 'blue' as opposed to 'red', and a small amount of knockback will be applied to each player (maybe a new sound can be played?). Not hugely game-changing, but a nifty mechanic. Reason I've done it this way is so that it is NOT essential for combat, and cannot be fully mastered.
Throwables
A few changes to all throwables:
0.05 second delay when throwing.
0.3 second 'cooldown' after you throw to stop spamming.
Both slimeballs and fire charges will now stack to 16, same as snowballs.
Fire Charges
Range: Same as snowballs
Impact: Half-Heart Damage, standard knockback
Special: 50% chance to set player on fire for 3-8 seconds
Slimeballs
Range: Same as snowballs
Impact: Minor Knockback
Special: Inflicts slowness effect for 3-8 seconds
Understand that this suggestions does not alter combat that drastically, so encounters with single enemies would not become mission impossible and take several minutes to complete, it just takes a little more thinking. It is still entirely possible to take on groups of enemies and emerge without a scratch. It is difficult for any mobs to be added that take creative combat strategies to take down because the combat system is currently so simple. This is a simple step to rectify that. At its core, it is simply adding better animations as well as timed swings, with a few extra features.
Constructive feedback is valued. Please give reasons on why you like/dislike the idea and suggestions on how to improve it. Thanks in advance.
Here's a great quote by FallaciousFoxtrot, summing up the current system and his response to this proposed system:
I would like to start off by criticizing those that decline this idea with the argument that Minecraft is a game focused on PvE and singleplayer. You can't get much more wrong than that. Minecraft is a game for everything, hence the name, (Sandbox?) and thus I think it is unfair of people focused on building to deny players that prefer PvP an actually interesting PvP-engine. Instead of always favoring one aspect, more blocks and aesthetics, how about some more intricate game-mechanics? PvP haven't been expanded upon since beta, that is if you don't count the nerfing of blocking, which was the epitome of nerf even at implementation-day and haven't really served a purpose since while practically ALL other aspects of the game has been improved since with the exception of skin-management.
And as much as I would love to see things like throwable slimeballs and firecharges, not to mention a more varied arsenal, we must prioritize the basics, as there currently are none.
I think that out of all the PvP-enhancements we have seen around this sub-forum recently, this one is the cleanest as well as the clearest way to improve combat in Minecraft, be it PvE or PvP. I sincerely hope that this will be acknowledged by Mojang and incorporated into the game, as it practially screams for change at this point. I support this wholeheartedly.
This sounds very simple, and balanced. Definitely could get me more interested in pvp. The only thing I don't like is the spear idea, otherwise I fully support this.
I like it for PvP, but not PvE. PvE will be a bit unfair for the cool down effect, but PvP could potentially, if tweaked a tad bit, be much better with the use of this idea.
Spears are my favorite kind of melee weapon so im kinda already liking this.
Slashing makes much more sense
I have always wanted timed blocks to nullify attacks
3/3 Support
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Ever had something (or somebody) on your railroad that you did not want there?
Minecraft's combat system is simple, because there is no need for a combat system. Minecraft is mainly about singleplayer survival. Since most mobs don't have combat strategies, the player's system doesn't have to be enhanced. If you talk about multiplayer PvP, you can always enhance that using plugins. No need to change the system, so a small part of the community (not everyone is an active PvP-Minecraftian) can enjoy what already be changed. No support.
That is just like saying there is a mod for that.
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Before you judge a man,walk a mile in his shoes; after that who cares? He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
What? There is no "spam clicking". You can't just slash faster than your opponent; there already is a limit on how fast you can swing you sword. And bumping that limit to roughly one slash a second? That's way worse than the current system.
No. Just no. It's inferior to both swords and bows and does not have a function distinct from either; there are nine slots in the hotbar for a reason.
The current combat system needs a revamp badly, but this? NO SUPPORT.
Minecraft's combat system is simple, because there is no need for a combat system. Minecraft is mainly about singleplayer survival.
Ok, what? If there is no need for a combat system, why is there a combat system in the first place? You then go ahead and say that Minecraft is about singleplayer survival, so how is one to survive without a combat system to fight off enemies? Your statement makes no sense.
If you talk about multiplayer PvP, you can always enhance that using plugins. No need to change the system, so a small part of the community (not everyone is an active PvP-Minecraftian) can enjoy what already be changed. No support.
Redundant statement. I'm making a suggestions to add to vanilla. Im fully aware there are mods and plugins that are around the place that add to the combat system, but the plugins are ideal to create more innovative mechanics. I understand that not everyone is a minecraft PvP'er, but this system is not such a massive change that those who prefer building can still build in peace.
What? There is no "spam clicking". You can't just slash faster than your opponent; there already is a limit on how fast you can swing you sword. And bumping that limit to roughly one slash a second? That's way worse than the current system.
I have no idea how many fights you've been in, so I will let that slide. But let me tell you PvP is a massive spam-click-fest. Its quite silly really. There currently is no limit on how fast you can slash your sword. It takes time for a slash to be completed by in that time you can attack more than once. Why is it way worse than the current system?
No. Just no. It's inferior to both swords and bows and does not have a function distinct from either; there are nine slots in the hotbar for a reason.
The current combat system needs a revamp badly, but this? NO SUPPORT.
How can I improve it? Please let me know instead of claiming its outright terrible.
Thanks for those who supported. I will add a poll later so we can see the supporters/non supporters better.
If you don't like the spears as a few have said, tell me how to improve it. Thanks.
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"A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
- Lord Tywin Lannister
I think this idea adds a fair amount of depth to PvP, making it more balanced. I do think it might need some tweaking for PvE though since a zombie could just wall you and you wouldn't be able to hit him back as he attacks faster unless you scale all of the melee mobs too. Anyways, I like the idea a spears and such, really fits with the theme. Support.
I have no idea how many fights you've been in, so I will let that slide. But let me tell you PvP is a massive spam-click-fest. Its quite silly really. There currently is no limit on how fast you can slash your sword. It takes time for a slash to be completed by in that time you can attack more than once. Why is it way worse than the current system?
I went and played minecraft after reading this post to make sure. You can slash very, very quickly, but there is a limit.
Also, because of knockback, it is not a contest of who can slash faster; it's a contest over who can get past the other guy's hitbox.
How can I improve it? Please let me know instead of claiming its outright terrible.
The core engine is flawed; currently spears bring nothing new to the battleground. You can't tweak that away. I suggest you rebuild it from the ground up.
What? There is no "spam clicking". You can't just slash faster than your opponent; there already is a limit on how fast you can swing you sword.
No, there is no limit to attack speed. Every button press=1 sword slash. It's just that mercy invincibility exists so a good deal of your infinite slashes won't connect.
As for the idea, it's okay. It does nothing radical for the system (as in, it won't entirely get rid of the gear>skill problem). It does spice it up as you intended, but the system needs more than spice to work. Spears are pretty worthless though as Phans said because using both a bow and a sword in accord is vastly more effective than using a spear.
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Did something happen to you in your childhood to give you this unreasonable fear of rutabaga?
The core engine is flawed; currently spears bring nothing new to the battleground. You can't tweak that away. I suggest you rebuild it from the ground up.
Ok, I've removed the my spear suggestion concept due to complaints, but I may add a revised version.
Can you please explain how the core engine is flawed?
No, there is no limit to attack speed. Every button press=1 sword slash. It's just that mercy invincibility exists so a good deal of your infinite slashes won't connect.
As for the idea, it's okay. It does nothing radical for the system (as in, it won't entirely get rid of the gear>skill problem). It does spice it up as you intended, but the system needs more than spice to work. Spears are pretty worthless though as Phans said because using both a bow and a sword in accord is vastly more effective than using a spear.
Thanks for the feedback. I've removed spears.
My intentions wasn't to radical change the system, as you can already see people are upset over even these small changes, so any more change would probably be a bit too extreme. Swing speeds and such are up for debate as to how fast they should be complete.
I would however, like at least one new weapon that can spice combat up a bit and induce weapon choice for players.
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"A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
- Lord Tywin Lannister
Ok, I've removed the my spear suggestion concept due to complaints, but I may add a revised version.
Can you please explain how the core engine is flawed?
What you were trying to do by introducing spears (in my opinion, at least) was throw a wrench in the current system and heat things up, something the current engine desperately needs. Spears, however, did not do this. Their two main functions really wouldn't change the way combat looks.
Fair enough if you have that worry, but you need to block within one tenth of a second for the effect to work, quite a small window of time.
Good show! This would drastically change the way combat looks, and while I'm not sure everyone would enjoy this new sakura samurai-esque style of combat, I sure as cuss would.
My intentions wasn't to radical change the system, as you can already see people are upset over even these small changes, so any more change would probably be a bit too extreme. Swing speeds and such are up for debate as to how fast they should be complete.
People aren't mad because the spear changes too much, they're mad because it's a big addition that changes little.
I would however, like at least one new weapon that can spice combat up a bit and induce weapon choice for players.
This is my idea (borrowed from one of my earlier threads and modified):
To make the system work better, mercy invincibility is mostly removed. Mercy invincibility is still granted by things that deal damage on contact, for an example, lava, fire, and slimes. A couple of potion effects are also altered: Haste will decrease the time it takes to execute a non-punching attack by 200ms each level until the player automatically executes non-punching attacks (with the exception of spears which will leave 50ms of breather room), and Fatigue, the inverse of Haste, will increase the time by 200ms per level.
Equipment is also somewhat changed to act more like an inventory system in one of my previous suggestions (disregard the slots with a cape and a ring in them, those are a part of my previous suggestion and not this one):
(I think you can guess where the crafting thing goes. It's in that empty space, and it's vertically aligned instead of horizontal. I didn't want to draw it as it was unnecessary.)
Allright, for the armor, it's pretty much unchanged. No changes there.
The right side, however, is a little different. I'll walk you through it.
-The two swords are your two weapon slots. The top one is for your right hand, and the bottom one is for your left hand. You put your weapons and shields in there. When you put a weapon or a shield in a weapon slot, the transparent outline of a sword (as shown in the slots themselves) appears in your inventory unless it is full. You can still use weapons and shields outside of the weapon slot, but you cannot dual wield that way. If you are not wielding a weapon but you have something in your weapon slot, the weapons will appear somewhere on your character (swords are put in a sheath at your hip, everything else goes on your back)
While dual wielding, you attack with Mouse 1 (left hand) and Mouse 2 (right hand) and block by holding Mouse 3 and pressing M1 or M2. Pressing M3 will lock the item you hold, preventing it from changing so that if your hand slips and the mouse wheel rolls, you won't accidentally start attacking your foe with a carrot or something along those lines.
Within this system, there would be a bunch of new weapons and weapon-esque items:
-Swords. Primarily defensive, based around blocking. Capable of dealing lots of damage if slashes are timed well.
-Spears. Primarily defensive, based around keeping the enemy away. Has very long range compared to other weapons. Two-handed.
-Crossbows. Primarily defensive, based around getting one or a couple powerful shots in to weaken an enemy before combat or kill them before it happens. Modeled vaguely after a repeater crossbow.
-Shields. Defensive, intended to complement another weapon by helping them defend against ranged attacks.
-Battleaxes. A mixed bag, decent for most situations. Based around stacking negative buffs on an enemy.
-Mauls. Primarily offensive, based around hacking through armor and blocks. Two-handed and has higher range than most weapons.
-Daggers. Primarily offensive, based around getting in and dealing as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Shortest weapon range but fastest weapon and with quick blocking speed.
-Bows. Primarily offensive, based around skirmishing.
Blocking works similarly to most suggestions. Blocking an attack within a certain time frame of initiating the block will nullify extra damage. This is referred to as a "perfect block". The timeframe for a perfect block is within 300ms.
-A sword blocks 70% of incoming melee damage and 0% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 100% and 0%.
-A spear blocks 50% of incoming melee damage and 0% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 90% and 0%.
-A battleaxe blocks 40% of incoming melee damage and 30% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 80% and 50%.
-A maul cannot block.
-An individual dagger blocks 60% of incoming melee damage and 0% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 100% and 0%.
-Dual-wielded daggers cannot block.
-A shield blocks 50% of incoming melee damage and 50% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 90% and 100%. Dual-wielding shields and blocking with both simultaneously will cause every block to be a perfect block.
Attacks will need to be charged like a bow or a horse jump. Unlike a bow, more charge does not necessarily equate to a more powerful attack; for most weapons, this will activate a special attack. (Keep in mind that 1000milliseconds=1second.)
The following weapons do not follow a charge mechanic:
-The bow. Behaves as it does now, where more charge=more damage and distance.
-The shield. Charging a shield for over 500ms will always result in a shield bash and nothing else, and under 500ms is just a weaker shield bash. A strong shield bash stuns the enemy for 600ms. A weak shield bash stuns the enemy for 300ms.
-The crossbow. Does not charge at all, just reloads like a gun would in an FPS for up to 3 arrows. These arrows are fired in quick succession. It takes 5 seconds to reload one arrow, 500ms to begin firing, and shoots an arrow every 100ms.
The following weapons follow a charge mechanic:
-The sword. Base damage is identical to what it is now. Has a two-block range. If you are not dual wielding with a sword, base damage is increased by 1 half heart of damage and you will appear to be holding the sword with both hands. While wielding a sword, you move .2 bps slower.
From 0 to 500ms, the wielder will punch the enemy (or kick them if dual-wielding), having a range of 1 block and dealing the same damage as a normal punch.
From 500 to 750ms, the wielder will execute a quick jab, dealing 75% of the weapon's normal damage.
From 750ms to 1250ms, the wielder will execute a horizontal slash, dealing 100% of the weapon's normal damage. If you begin charging immediately after executing the attack, quick jabs will become horizontal slashes.
From 1250ms to 1450ms, the wielder will execute a vertical slash, dealing 200% of the weapon's normal damage. 25% of this damage will pierce armor and blocks (aka 50% pierces and the other 150% doesn't).
From 1450 to 1700ms, the wielder will execute a horizontal slash immediately followed by a quick jab, effectively dealing 175% of the normal damage at the cost of a bit of durability.
After 1700ms, the wielder will execute a shaky vertical slash, dealing 50% of the weapon's damage and costing extra durability.
-The spear. Deals half a heart less damage than the sword. Four block range. Two-handed, so you cannot dual-wield with it. While wielding a spear, you move .4 bps slower.
From 0 to 500ms, the wielder pushes the enemy back with the shaft of the spear. Same damage as a punch, but the knockback will behave as if the weapon was enchanted with one extra level of knockback than you already had.
From 500 to 750ms, the wielder executes a quick jab, dealing 75% of the weapon's damage.
From 750ms to 1250ms, the wielder executes a powerful jab, dealing 100% of the weapon's damage and extra knockback.
From 1250ms to 1450ms, the wielder executes two powerful jabs in a row. The first one briefly stuns the target, deals no knockback, and deals 100% damage and the second un-stuns the target, deals increased knockback, and deals 100% damage.
From 1450ms to 1700ms, the wielder executes a piercing jab. This deals 50% of the weapon's normal damage and damages all enemies within range of the spear rather than the first one in line. Durability is lost for each enemy hit.
After 1700ms, the wielder will attempt the piercing jab but fail and only deal 50% of the weapon's normal damage.
-The battleaxe. Deals half a heart more damage than the sword, or one heart more damage if the battleaxe is being wielded alone (you will appear to be wielding it with two hands. The attacks of a battleaxe have a larger delay than others (others have something closer to 200ms, the battleaxe has roughly 300ms except for the 750-1000ms attack). Potion effects caused by an axe will never force the time to exceed 10000ms; if the target already has a potion effect on them and the axe inflicts it on them again, it just refreshes the time to 10000ms.
From 0 to 500ms, you will punch/kick the enemy as with the sword, having one block reach and dealing the same damage as a normal punch.
From 500 to 800ms, you will shove the enemy away with the flat of the axe (?). This only deals 50% of the damage of a normal attack, but it stuns the enemy briefly (300ms) and takes less time to execute than the other axe attacks (roughly 200ms instead of 300ms).
From 800 to 1100ms, you will hack at the enemy. This deals 80% damage and inflicts Bleeding I on the target for 10000ms, which will deal 1 point of damage every 2000ms (I wanted to add bleeding instead of poison because it makes more sense, but Poison I for 6 seconds could work. I guess. Or maybe just give it a name like "critical wounds" or something.)
From 1100 to 1400ms, you will execute a similar attack to the above, but aimed lower at the legs (assuming you are fighting a human or humanoid). This deals 120% of the damage of the axe, but inflicts slowness and fatigue on the target for 10000ms.
From 1400 to 1550ms, you will execute the above two attacks in quick succession. Like with the spear, the first attack briefly stuns the player and the second un-stuns.
From 1550 to 1800ms, you will execute a strong diagonal slash, dealing 150% of the normal attack damage and inflict slowness and fatigue on the target for 10000ms.
After 1800ms, you'll execute a shaky diagonal slash, dealing 100% of the normal attack damage.
-The maul. Deals 3 half hearts of damage more damage than the sword. Two-handed, so you cannot dual-wield with it. While wielding a maul, you move .4 bps slower.
From 0 to 800ms, you will shove the enemy away with the shaft of the maul like with the spear. Deals knockback as if the weapon had one more level of knockback than it actually has.
From 800 to 1000ms, your character will execute an overhead swing, dealing 100% damage. This pierces 25% of armor and 25% of the damage reduction from blocking.
From 1000 to 1300ms, your character will execute a wide sweeping swing, dealing 100% damage and striking all enemies nearby. The attack ignores 30% of protection from armor and blocking.
From 1300 to 1500ms, your character executes a strong overhead swing, dealing 175% damage. This attack ignores 50% of protection from armor and blocking and treats perfect blocks as normal blocks.
From 1500 to 1800ms, your character will spin the maul around three times like a Zelda-style spin attack, dealing 80% base damage per swing, damage, all enemies around him, and ignore 40% of protection from armor and blocking. This lasts for 900ms. Executing the 800-1000ms attack while spinning will cause you to execute this spin attack again. You move at a speed of 2bps as you begin spinning which accelerates to 4bps after a two spins. Executing an extra spin will deal durability damage to the weapon. Being hit by an attack after the first execution of the spin will cause you to be stunned for 500ms.
After 1800ms, your character will attempt the spin but lose their balance after 1 spin and stun themselves for 200ms. It has the same damage.
-The dagger. Deals 1 heart less damage than the sword. Unlike default dual-wielding, attacking with daggers will cause you to swing them both in very quick succession. For all intents and purposes, unarmed combat is identical to wielding a crappy dagger in every way except for animations.
Unlike every other weapon, each successful hit will cause the initial 0-500ms attack to have the time frame reduced by 100ms. Any miss will bump it up by 100ms to a cap of 500ms. If you reduce the 500ms attack to 0 seconds you begin reducing the 500-800ms attack instead. They also have no knockback and cannot be enchanted with knockback.
From 0 to 500ms, you punch the enemy or kick the enemy as usual.
From 500 to 800ms, you quickly stab the enemy, dealing 75% damage.
From 800 to 1000ms, you slash the enemy twice in succession, dealing 50% damage. The dagger takes durability damage only for the first strike.
From 1000 to 5000ms, you do the same quick stab as in 500-800ms.
From 5000ms to 10000ms, you do a strong "backstab" attack. This deals 150% damage and pierces 75% of protection from armor. It also stuns the enemy for 900ms, allowing you to rack up a good combo.
Thus, the general idea is that every weapon has around two counters:
-Spears counter mauls and daggers. Daggers have much shorter range than spears and require their users to get in range of your knockback attack. Mauls have no way to counter your long-ranged stabs.
-Swords counter daggers and battleaxes. A sword block can easily disrupt a dagger user's combo, assuming the sword user doesn't die first, after which the sword user can keep the dagger user at bay fairly easily. Sword users can also easily block the battleaxe user's telegraphed attacks.
-Battleaxes counter spears and mauls. A battleaxe user can hinder a spear user's inability to block and move and can keep dealing damage thanks to it's DoT effects even outside the range of a spear. A battleaxe user can stay outside the range of a maul user and slow them down even more than their weapon already does.
-Mauls counter swords and all heavily-armored players to some degree. A maul is capable of ignoring perfect blocks and can ignore armor. Deals a lot of damage in it's own right, making it more of a general-use weapon.
-Daggers are not a hard counter to anything; in a one-on-one straight-up fight, their wielders will most likely lose due to their low damage and range. The idea is to sneak up on someone and kill them before they can react. Daggers may have some difficulty killing certain weapon users, but a skilled dagger user can take out anyone given the right situation.
Yeah, it's not balanced very well to Minecraft as it stands. It'd need to be made a lot more difficult as some attacks (i.e. the battleaxe sweetspot) can deal enough damage to OHK mobs. A lot of work would need to be done to make this work as it would make the game too easy and would not fit in well with PvE.
However, it wouldn't be terrible inconceivable to simplify this into just 3 weapons (probably sword, axe, and maul, though I could see sword, spear, and axe/maul working as well) and remove some of the craziness.
Alternatively, adding new weapon-wielding mobs or mobs designed with this system in mind to certain areas of the game, adding quarter hearts (due to all the percentages), and adding more difficult areas and (to some extent) regional difficulty could make this system work out just dandy.
I kind of wanted each weapon to have 2 counters and counter 2 others but I couldn't make it work out in a logical manner with daggers and mauls being involved (originally I was going to go for mauls countering swords and daggers, but daggers are already countered by spears by virtue of being the two extremes of range). I had to settle for making mauls rather general-purpose and daggers a stealth weapon that holds up poorly in standard combat. If you have a possible system that can make my original intentions work, go for it. I suppose daggers could counter swords (very fast attack speeds being hard to block) and mauls (since they make the wielder slow in comparison to the nearly unencumbered dagger-wielder) and make that work but honestly it feels like swords should counter daggers since they can break combos easily and it's somewhat difficult for a dagger user to get a combo running if it's been broken after their ambush (but then again the wielder will already be weak from the ambush... gah).
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Did something happen to you in your childhood to give you this unreasonable fear of rutabaga?
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Alright, so its basically a fact that Minecraft combat system is jokingly simple. Currently, its mostly the same as it has been since alpha (excluding bows, crits and sprint attacks). It is very poorly designed, is too simple to be anything of interest and can hardly be described as a perk of the game. In PvP it is often the case that the person who can click fastest, has better gear, or is the first one to land a hit wins. Combat systems that are well designed don’t have this. So, what I propose is a system that tries to stay simple but has enough complexity to encourage more skill in battle, whether it be PvP or PvE. The current system is fine for people who enjoy the creative aspects of the game, but players who play the game and are more enthralled by the survival aspect often find the current combat system very disappointing.
And calm down, I’m not suggesting some hardcore-skyrim like RPG combat system with tons of different weapons, attacks and strategies. Just something to spice up combat a bit.
Read on for more info, and make sure you read the whole thread so you don’t miss anything.
Animations
Attacking
Blocking
Throwables
0.05 second delay when throwing.
0.3 second 'cooldown' after you throw to stop spamming.
Both slimeballs and fire charges will now stack to 16, same as snowballs.
Fire Charges
Range: Same as snowballs
Impact: Half-Heart Damage, standard knockback
Special: 50% chance to set player on fire for 3-8 seconds
Slimeballs
Range: Same as snowballs
Impact: Minor Knockback
Special: Inflicts slowness effect for 3-8 seconds
Understand that this suggestions does not alter combat that drastically, so encounters with single enemies would not become mission impossible and take several minutes to complete, it just takes a little more thinking. It is still entirely possible to take on groups of enemies and emerge without a scratch. It is difficult for any mobs to be added that take creative combat strategies to take down because the combat system is currently so simple. This is a simple step to rectify that. At its core, it is simply adding better animations as well as timed swings, with a few extra features.
Constructive feedback is valued. Please give reasons on why you like/dislike the idea and suggestions on how to improve it. Thanks in advance.
Here's a great quote by FallaciousFoxtrot, summing up the current system and his response to this proposed system:
- Lord Tywin Lannister
Kill two stones with one bird whenever possible
This needs a poll btw.
Slashing makes much more sense
I have always wanted timed blocks to nullify attacks
3/3 Support
No. Just no. It's inferior to both swords and bows and does not have a function distinct from either; there are nine slots in the hotbar for a reason.
The current combat system needs a revamp badly, but this? NO SUPPORT.
Ok, what? If there is no need for a combat system, why is there a combat system in the first place? You then go ahead and say that Minecraft is about singleplayer survival, so how is one to survive without a combat system to fight off enemies? Your statement makes no sense.
Highly debatable. Adding even simple animations would add to the look of the game, and open up possibilities for simple combat strategies.
Redundant statement. I'm making a suggestions to add to vanilla. Im fully aware there are mods and plugins that are around the place that add to the combat system, but the plugins are ideal to create more innovative mechanics. I understand that not everyone is a minecraft PvP'er, but this system is not such a massive change that those who prefer building can still build in peace.
It is 1.1 slashes per second, not seconds per slash
I have no idea how many fights you've been in, so I will let that slide. But let me tell you PvP is a massive spam-click-fest. Its quite silly really. There currently is no limit on how fast you can slash your sword. It takes time for a slash to be completed by in that time you can attack more than once. Why is it way worse than the current system?
How can I improve it? Please let me know instead of claiming its outright terrible.
Thanks for those who supported. I will add a poll later so we can see the supporters/non supporters better.
If you don't like the spears as a few have said, tell me how to improve it. Thanks.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
Typographical error, sorry. Still, the point stands.
I went and played minecraft after reading this post to make sure. You can slash very, very quickly, but there is a limit.
Also, because of knockback, it is not a contest of who can slash faster; it's a contest over who can get past the other guy's hitbox.
The core engine is flawed; currently spears bring nothing new to the battleground. You can't tweak that away. I suggest you rebuild it from the ground up.
No, there is no limit to attack speed. Every button press=1 sword slash. It's just that mercy invincibility exists so a good deal of your infinite slashes won't connect.
As for the idea, it's okay. It does nothing radical for the system (as in, it won't entirely get rid of the gear>skill problem). It does spice it up as you intended, but the system needs more than spice to work. Spears are pretty worthless though as Phans said because using both a bow and a sword in accord is vastly more effective than using a spear.
Ok, I've removed the my spear suggestion concept due to complaints, but I may add a revised version.
Can you please explain how the core engine is flawed?
Fair enough if you have that worry, but you need to block within one tenth of a second for the effect to work, quite a small window of time.
Thanks for the feedback. I've removed spears.
My intentions wasn't to radical change the system, as you can already see people are upset over even these small changes, so any more change would probably be a bit too extreme. Swing speeds and such are up for debate as to how fast they should be complete.
I would however, like at least one new weapon that can spice combat up a bit and induce weapon choice for players.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
What you were trying to do by introducing spears (in my opinion, at least) was throw a wrench in the current system and heat things up, something the current engine desperately needs. Spears, however, did not do this. Their two main functions really wouldn't change the way combat looks.
Good show! This would drastically change the way combat looks, and while I'm not sure everyone would enjoy this new sakura samurai-esque style of combat, I sure as cuss would.
People aren't mad because the spear changes too much, they're mad because it's a big addition that changes little.
Try my cannon suggestion==> http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/2107665-cannons/ This would maybe make things a little too spicy...nah.
This is my idea (borrowed from one of my earlier threads and modified):
To make the system work better, mercy invincibility is mostly removed. Mercy invincibility is still granted by things that deal damage on contact, for an example, lava, fire, and slimes. A couple of potion effects are also altered: Haste will decrease the time it takes to execute a non-punching attack by 200ms each level until the player automatically executes non-punching attacks (with the exception of spears which will leave 50ms of breather room), and Fatigue, the inverse of Haste, will increase the time by 200ms per level.
Equipment is also somewhat changed to act more like an inventory system in one of my previous suggestions (disregard the slots with a cape and a ring in them, those are a part of my previous suggestion and not this one):
While dual wielding, you attack with Mouse 1 (left hand) and Mouse 2 (right hand) and block by holding Mouse 3 and pressing M1 or M2. Pressing M3 will lock the item you hold, preventing it from changing so that if your hand slips and the mouse wheel rolls, you won't accidentally start attacking your foe with a carrot or something along those lines.
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Within this system, there would be a bunch of new weapons and weapon-esque items:
-Swords. Primarily defensive, based around blocking. Capable of dealing lots of damage if slashes are timed well.
-Spears. Primarily defensive, based around keeping the enemy away. Has very long range compared to other weapons. Two-handed.
-Crossbows. Primarily defensive, based around getting one or a couple powerful shots in to weaken an enemy before combat or kill them before it happens. Modeled vaguely after a repeater crossbow.
-Shields. Defensive, intended to complement another weapon by helping them defend against ranged attacks.
-Battleaxes. A mixed bag, decent for most situations. Based around stacking negative buffs on an enemy.
-Mauls. Primarily offensive, based around hacking through armor and blocks. Two-handed and has higher range than most weapons.
-Daggers. Primarily offensive, based around getting in and dealing as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. Shortest weapon range but fastest weapon and with quick blocking speed.
-Bows. Primarily offensive, based around skirmishing.
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Blocking works similarly to most suggestions. Blocking an attack within a certain time frame of initiating the block will nullify extra damage. This is referred to as a "perfect block". The timeframe for a perfect block is within 300ms.
-A sword blocks 70% of incoming melee damage and 0% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 100% and 0%.
-A spear blocks 50% of incoming melee damage and 0% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 90% and 0%.
-A battleaxe blocks 40% of incoming melee damage and 30% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 80% and 50%.
-A maul cannot block.
-An individual dagger blocks 60% of incoming melee damage and 0% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 100% and 0%.
-Dual-wielded daggers cannot block.
-A shield blocks 50% of incoming melee damage and 50% of incoming ranged damage. Perfect blocks increase this to 90% and 100%. Dual-wielding shields and blocking with both simultaneously will cause every block to be a perfect block.
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Attacks will need to be charged like a bow or a horse jump. Unlike a bow, more charge does not necessarily equate to a more powerful attack; for most weapons, this will activate a special attack. (Keep in mind that 1000milliseconds=1second.)
The following weapons do not follow a charge mechanic:
-The bow. Behaves as it does now, where more charge=more damage and distance.
-The shield. Charging a shield for over 500ms will always result in a shield bash and nothing else, and under 500ms is just a weaker shield bash. A strong shield bash stuns the enemy for 600ms. A weak shield bash stuns the enemy for 300ms.
-The crossbow. Does not charge at all, just reloads like a gun would in an FPS for up to 3 arrows. These arrows are fired in quick succession. It takes 5 seconds to reload one arrow, 500ms to begin firing, and shoots an arrow every 100ms.
The following weapons follow a charge mechanic:
-The sword. Base damage is identical to what it is now. Has a two-block range. If you are not dual wielding with a sword, base damage is increased by 1 half heart of damage and you will appear to be holding the sword with both hands. While wielding a sword, you move .2 bps slower.
From 0 to 500ms, the wielder will punch the enemy (or kick them if dual-wielding), having a range of 1 block and dealing the same damage as a normal punch.
From 500 to 750ms, the wielder will execute a quick jab, dealing 75% of the weapon's normal damage.
From 750ms to 1250ms, the wielder will execute a horizontal slash, dealing 100% of the weapon's normal damage. If you begin charging immediately after executing the attack, quick jabs will become horizontal slashes.
From 1250ms to 1450ms, the wielder will execute a vertical slash, dealing 200% of the weapon's normal damage. 25% of this damage will pierce armor and blocks (aka 50% pierces and the other 150% doesn't).
From 1450 to 1700ms, the wielder will execute a horizontal slash immediately followed by a quick jab, effectively dealing 175% of the normal damage at the cost of a bit of durability.
After 1700ms, the wielder will execute a shaky vertical slash, dealing 50% of the weapon's damage and costing extra durability.
-The spear. Deals half a heart less damage than the sword. Four block range. Two-handed, so you cannot dual-wield with it. While wielding a spear, you move .4 bps slower.
From 0 to 500ms, the wielder pushes the enemy back with the shaft of the spear. Same damage as a punch, but the knockback will behave as if the weapon was enchanted with one extra level of knockback than you already had.
From 500 to 750ms, the wielder executes a quick jab, dealing 75% of the weapon's damage.
From 750ms to 1250ms, the wielder executes a powerful jab, dealing 100% of the weapon's damage and extra knockback.
From 1250ms to 1450ms, the wielder executes two powerful jabs in a row. The first one briefly stuns the target, deals no knockback, and deals 100% damage and the second un-stuns the target, deals increased knockback, and deals 100% damage.
From 1450ms to 1700ms, the wielder executes a piercing jab. This deals 50% of the weapon's normal damage and damages all enemies within range of the spear rather than the first one in line. Durability is lost for each enemy hit.
After 1700ms, the wielder will attempt the piercing jab but fail and only deal 50% of the weapon's normal damage.
-The battleaxe. Deals half a heart more damage than the sword, or one heart more damage if the battleaxe is being wielded alone (you will appear to be wielding it with two hands. The attacks of a battleaxe have a larger delay than others (others have something closer to 200ms, the battleaxe has roughly 300ms except for the 750-1000ms attack). Potion effects caused by an axe will never force the time to exceed 10000ms; if the target already has a potion effect on them and the axe inflicts it on them again, it just refreshes the time to 10000ms.
From 0 to 500ms, you will punch/kick the enemy as with the sword, having one block reach and dealing the same damage as a normal punch.
From 500 to 800ms, you will shove the enemy away with the flat of the axe (?). This only deals 50% of the damage of a normal attack, but it stuns the enemy briefly (300ms) and takes less time to execute than the other axe attacks (roughly 200ms instead of 300ms).
From 800 to 1100ms, you will hack at the enemy. This deals 80% damage and inflicts Bleeding I on the target for 10000ms, which will deal 1 point of damage every 2000ms (I wanted to add bleeding instead of poison because it makes more sense, but Poison I for 6 seconds could work. I guess. Or maybe just give it a name like "critical wounds" or something.)
From 1100 to 1400ms, you will execute a similar attack to the above, but aimed lower at the legs (assuming you are fighting a human or humanoid). This deals 120% of the damage of the axe, but inflicts slowness and fatigue on the target for 10000ms.
From 1400 to 1550ms, you will execute the above two attacks in quick succession. Like with the spear, the first attack briefly stuns the player and the second un-stuns.
From 1550 to 1800ms, you will execute a strong diagonal slash, dealing 150% of the normal attack damage and inflict slowness and fatigue on the target for 10000ms.
After 1800ms, you'll execute a shaky diagonal slash, dealing 100% of the normal attack damage.
-The maul. Deals 3 half hearts of damage more damage than the sword. Two-handed, so you cannot dual-wield with it. While wielding a maul, you move .4 bps slower.
From 0 to 800ms, you will shove the enemy away with the shaft of the maul like with the spear. Deals knockback as if the weapon had one more level of knockback than it actually has.
From 800 to 1000ms, your character will execute an overhead swing, dealing 100% damage. This pierces 25% of armor and 25% of the damage reduction from blocking.
From 1000 to 1300ms, your character will execute a wide sweeping swing, dealing 100% damage and striking all enemies nearby. The attack ignores 30% of protection from armor and blocking.
From 1300 to 1500ms, your character executes a strong overhead swing, dealing 175% damage. This attack ignores 50% of protection from armor and blocking and treats perfect blocks as normal blocks.
From 1500 to 1800ms, your character will spin the maul around three times like a Zelda-style spin attack, dealing 80% base damage per swing, damage, all enemies around him, and ignore 40% of protection from armor and blocking. This lasts for 900ms. Executing the 800-1000ms attack while spinning will cause you to execute this spin attack again. You move at a speed of 2bps as you begin spinning which accelerates to 4bps after a two spins. Executing an extra spin will deal durability damage to the weapon. Being hit by an attack after the first execution of the spin will cause you to be stunned for 500ms.
After 1800ms, your character will attempt the spin but lose their balance after 1 spin and stun themselves for 200ms. It has the same damage.
-The dagger. Deals 1 heart less damage than the sword. Unlike default dual-wielding, attacking with daggers will cause you to swing them both in very quick succession. For all intents and purposes, unarmed combat is identical to wielding a crappy dagger in every way except for animations.
Unlike every other weapon, each successful hit will cause the initial 0-500ms attack to have the time frame reduced by 100ms. Any miss will bump it up by 100ms to a cap of 500ms. If you reduce the 500ms attack to 0 seconds you begin reducing the 500-800ms attack instead. They also have no knockback and cannot be enchanted with knockback.
From 0 to 500ms, you punch the enemy or kick the enemy as usual.
From 500 to 800ms, you quickly stab the enemy, dealing 75% damage.
From 800 to 1000ms, you slash the enemy twice in succession, dealing 50% damage. The dagger takes durability damage only for the first strike.
From 1000 to 5000ms, you do the same quick stab as in 500-800ms.
From 5000ms to 10000ms, you do a strong "backstab" attack. This deals 150% damage and pierces 75% of protection from armor. It also stuns the enemy for 900ms, allowing you to rack up a good combo.
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Thus, the general idea is that every weapon has around two counters:
-Spears counter mauls and daggers. Daggers have much shorter range than spears and require their users to get in range of your knockback attack. Mauls have no way to counter your long-ranged stabs.
-Swords counter daggers and battleaxes. A sword block can easily disrupt a dagger user's combo, assuming the sword user doesn't die first, after which the sword user can keep the dagger user at bay fairly easily. Sword users can also easily block the battleaxe user's telegraphed attacks.
-Battleaxes counter spears and mauls. A battleaxe user can hinder a spear user's inability to block and move and can keep dealing damage thanks to it's DoT effects even outside the range of a spear. A battleaxe user can stay outside the range of a maul user and slow them down even more than their weapon already does.
-Mauls counter swords and all heavily-armored players to some degree. A maul is capable of ignoring perfect blocks and can ignore armor. Deals a lot of damage in it's own right, making it more of a general-use weapon.
-Daggers are not a hard counter to anything; in a one-on-one straight-up fight, their wielders will most likely lose due to their low damage and range. The idea is to sneak up on someone and kill them before they can react. Daggers may have some difficulty killing certain weapon users, but a skilled dagger user can take out anyone given the right situation.
Yeah, it's not balanced very well to Minecraft as it stands. It'd need to be made a lot more difficult as some attacks (i.e. the battleaxe sweetspot) can deal enough damage to OHK mobs. A lot of work would need to be done to make this work as it would make the game too easy and would not fit in well with PvE.
However, it wouldn't be terrible inconceivable to simplify this into just 3 weapons (probably sword, axe, and maul, though I could see sword, spear, and axe/maul working as well) and remove some of the craziness.
Alternatively, adding new weapon-wielding mobs or mobs designed with this system in mind to certain areas of the game, adding quarter hearts (due to all the percentages), and adding more difficult areas and (to some extent) regional difficulty could make this system work out just dandy.
I kind of wanted each weapon to have 2 counters and counter 2 others but I couldn't make it work out in a logical manner with daggers and mauls being involved (originally I was going to go for mauls countering swords and daggers, but daggers are already countered by spears by virtue of being the two extremes of range). I had to settle for making mauls rather general-purpose and daggers a stealth weapon that holds up poorly in standard combat. If you have a possible system that can make my original intentions work, go for it. I suppose daggers could counter swords (very fast attack speeds being hard to block) and mauls (since they make the wielder slow in comparison to the nearly unencumbered dagger-wielder) and make that work but honestly it feels like swords should counter daggers since they can break combos easily and it's somewhat difficult for a dagger user to get a combo running if it's been broken after their ambush (but then again the wielder will already be weak from the ambush... gah).