As you all know, iron is the second most powerful tier in Minecraft. Why is it, then, that whenever I go mining in a cave or a man-made mine, I emerge with stacks of iron, when I haven't even been mining for an hour? I can get access to the second-best tier in the game on my very first night. Not only is this ridiculous, it seriously cripples any kind of progression in survival mode. It's basically a given that iron is going to be there, you don't have to go andlook for it, because you know you'll get heaps of it. The commonness of iron makes leather armour completely redundant, and removes any kind of challenge when attempting to obtain iron items.
You may be asking yourself, so what are you suggesting?
Basically, to make iron less common. It currently generates from levels 1-63, with about 1.3% of blocks in layers 5-40 composed of iron. It is found in veins of 4-10, and there are roughly 77 ore blocks per chunk. This is quite a bit. What I suggest is that it generates from levels 1-50 less commonly than it currently does, and in smaller veins of 3-6.
Of course, you may be ranting, "But now I can't get any decent armour earlier in the game!"
Have no fear, my friends. It will now be possible to craft chainmail armour in the game. How so? You may ask. First, it would require you to craft 'chains,' using iron, like so:
Doing this will yield 6 chains, so the output is double the input. These chains will now be used to craft chainmail armour in the same way one crafts other armour. It is balanced because chainmail armour is not as strong as iron armour, and breaks faster. The implementation of chains also opens up many possibilites for future crafting recipes, such as more redstone devices or tools. This also makes leather armour more important, as it will become a viable armour option again due to iron being less common. I suggest you also check out this thread regarding leather armour and how useless it is: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1448912-cows-pigs-and-the-problems-with-leather-armor/
The stats of iron tools and armour would remain unchanged, so don't worry about that.
You may argue that this makes the game 'too hard.' I completely disagree. Mobs are already not very challenging to an adept player, and if you really have that much trouble, play on easy. You may also say this makes mining boring, but if you think about it, finding iron would be something to rejoice about now, instead of just, meh, I think I'll leave it (Which I know I often do, as I find myself with heaps). It is so common at the moment that it really takes away from the interest of mining, rather than making it more engaging.
Thoughts?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
- Lord Tywin Lannister
It's also got a use for beacons... Now re-think your idea.
Iron is renewable, and can be farmed. The beacon is an end-game item, with not many practical applications. To be honest I don't think this is much of an issue, there is plenty of gold around still.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
- Lord Tywin Lannister
I agree with this statement. However, iron is still far too common to be the second best item tier in the game. It eliminates any kind of challenge to collect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
- Lord Tywin Lannister
Iron being common makes mining more fun. Since most ores are somewhat rare, you'll only receive lots of coal when you make iron more rare.
I kinda hate people saying Minecraft is to easy at the beginning. If you want a challenge, make it yourself.
The only 'rare' ores in the game are diamond and emerald, if you spend any amount of time mining. Why do you assume this would make the game more hard? Making iron rarer has no relevance to the game being hard, it makes mining absolutely essential again, rather than derping around in a cave for half an hour. Also, what does this have to do with coal? I don't think the game is too easy at the beginning, I just think the progression is completely broken.
Besides, there is nothing wrong with increased difficulty, anyhow. It's a new challenge and makes you a better player.
Iron is extremely common on Earth, and this is a wishlist.
Yes mate. But on earth, there are no zombies, no endermen, no magic portals that take you to a hell world, and iron is not renewable.
Please explain how this is a wishlist.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of sheep."
- Lord Tywin Lannister
It's also got a use for beacons... Now re-think your idea.
Beacons are useless in their own right. A decent amount of the beacon items are worthless by the time you get them (Strength and Resistance), have a portable form (Swiftness and Regeneration), or are more useful when travelling (Jump Boost, Haste, and Swiftness). The only beacon effect that is actually useful is Haste since you can use it to hollow a large underground area out. After all the others are too useless if they're stuck in one place or made worthless by the fact that you already have god-tier gear.
Anyway, slightly different idea (in conjunction with reduced iron spawn rate): chain armor recipe uses the current iron armor recipe, but the current iron armor uses:
There are more problems with progression than just iron and leather, though. Nothing is stopping you from getting diamonds on the first day in complete safety (i've done it before back in beta when the game was more difficult). And personally, i'd rather get diamond armor before leather armor with your system because getting a sizeable amount of leather while still having enough cows is a royal pain. If you'd like, I can explain in more detail, but it's kind of off-topic and would probably derail the thread.
Beacons are useless in their own right. A decent amount of the beacon items are worthless by the time you get them (Strength and Resistance), have a portable form (Swiftness and Regeneration), or are more useful when travelling (Jump Boost, Haste, and Swiftness). The only beacon effect that is actually useful is Haste since you can use it to hollow a large underground area out. After all the others are too useless if they're stuck in one place or made worthless by the fact that you already have god-tier gear.
Anyway, slightly different idea: chain armor recipe uses the current iron armor recipe, but the current iron armor uses:
-snip-
There are more problems with progression than just iron and leather, though. Nothing is stopping you from getting diamonds on the first day in complete safety (i've done it before back in beta when the game was more difficult). And personally, i'd rather get diamond armor before leather armor with your system because getting a sizeable amount of leather while still having enough cows is a royal pain. If you'd like, I can explain in more detail, but it's kind of off-topic and would probably derail the thread.
Thanks for your input. Its good to see people post feedback with reasons rather than opinion. I actually quite like your suggestions regarding chain and iron armour, I will probably update main post with your idea. (Unless, of course, you'd like to make your own thread).
I've noticed you around the forum and I agree with lots of what you have to say in regards to updates and the game's current features. If you made a thread/s compiling your ideas, I'm sure I'd support it. (We both know progression in Minecraft is botched).
Why can't we just take back the old iron rarity? The one we had in Alpha? Everything was alot harder to get back then and leather was actually something useful.
To make mining more fun as someone pointed out. We could add another ore that's replacing the current iron. An example being copper. We make it so that iron has it's old rarity and replace the current iron stats with the new ore copper.
The power of copper shouldn't be better then iron but perhaps you could still make almost the same things as iron with it? If you made copper railway it would only take you half the length iron railway would etc. And perhaps you would still need a iron or gold pickaxe to break diamonds and obsidian? I still like your idea with chains though and perhaps you could implement them both? But it's a nice idea and i support it!
Thanks for your support. I agree Minecraft probably does needs more tiers, but Mojang have said they won't be adding any more. Plus, you can't suggest any new ones on this forum without being completely shot down and crushed into the dirt by people commenting about what Mojang came out and said.
Iron is renewable, and can be farmed. The beacon is an end-game item, with not many practical applications. To be honest I don't think this is much of an issue, there is plenty of gold around still.
Yeah, at a REALLY SLOW RATE.
Iron dosen't need to be found harder. I find that after you get huge stacks of iron, there is this period of time where you don't really do anything. No support.
Iron is certainly a touch too common- I have over 3,000 ingots on one server!
However, I'm not sure if making it rarer would actually help. Iron has a myriad of uses in rails, security, and so forth, so making it uncommon would be quite annoying for people working on megaprojects.
A good compromise, I think, would be to simply make it less common at shallow depths and more slightly common at deep depths. This would keep new players from instantly getting two stacks of ingots without making the stuff as rare as gold.
I have mixed opinions about this. While iron is used for so many things: Redstone, Mining, Building, etc. I still feel like i have an unfair advantage over the game but i use iron a lot so it would kind of suck to have less.
what about that iron is more common 5000 blocks away from spawn? this would still balance it and encourages travelling, iron should be easy to get 5000 blocks from spawn, because it would make it so that it isn`t a pain to get for end-game players and it would leave beacons uneffected, because by the time you defeat the wither, you already have diamond armor and a nether hub.
No please no i travel for a long time but to go that long? Thats such a hassle players like myself would just simply enable cheats and teleport there it would also cause lag on servers. Just no.
They apparently made iron MORE common in 1.7, since I analyzed a world in MCEdit and found almost 100 iron ore per chunk, much higher than the 77 the Wiki gives and outside any expected variation (e.g. the same seed in 1.6 has around 75-80 ore per chunk in a 400 chunk area). My first thought when I found this out (coal also appears to be more common) was they they did it to compensate for fewer caves (the ratio of iron to other ores is also higher, so it isn't just due to less caves making more room for ores; caves don't occupy as much space as popularly believed).
Although I agree that it is ridiculous when you can find this much iron, much less other stuff:
That's about 3,100 iron ore mined (less ingots from chests); I got that in 3-4 days from a single cave system, and my second return trip (admittedly, the cave system I'm exploring is the largest cave system in Minecraft history because I modified cave generation, but it is just bigger, not with more ores per chunk; if anything, less, but more exposed); I also use a backpack mod so I don't need to constantly return (some even say that diamond is too common, although 25 diamond blocks is only about 100 ore with Fortune III). I also have filled over 3 double chests with iron blocks so far...
Iron needs to be common. It's used in more recipes than just about anything but wood...not counting redstone, which is only useful to players who want to do things with redstone. Further, mining iron gives you something to do. It is pretty much always useful, and you can always find it. Since there really aren't all that many ores in Minecraft to begin with, iron is one of the only things that you'll always be able to find a use for, but isn't overpowering to see frequently.
Why can't we just take back the old iron rarity? The one we had in Alpha? Everything was alot harder to get back then and leather was actually something useful.
To make mining more fun as someone pointed out. We could add another ore that's replacing the current iron. An example being copper. We make it so that iron has it's old rarity and replace the current iron stats with the new ore copper.
IIRC the iron rarity hasn't changed from alpha to beta and beyond (except apparently for r1.7 as Caver mentioned). It's merely that after ß1.8, cave density shot up and it was thus trivial to get iron since all the caves exposed a good portion of it.
I'm also a fan of replacing the current iron with copper, though it'd become useless after obtaining iron unless it has some decent non-tool uses.
Coming back here with a new opinion: the iron spawn rate is balanced for those who end up creating a lot of hoppers and pistons and rails and whatnot. However, it's ridiculously common for someone who doesn't use such things. You may end up with several stacks of the stuff after a caving trip, yet you only need 35 (if i'm correct) for a full set of iron tools, including the hoe.
Therefore, the problem isn't really so much with rarity. It's that iron equipment is too powerful for it's rarity.
This could be solved in a few ways:
-Nerfing iron tools. Pretty mediocre solution as it'd make stone a more viable choice than it already is and would make the gap between iron and diamond even larger. You'd probably need to implement a new tier above iron for this to work. The only iron equipment that needs nerfing anyway is the armor.
-Making iron tools uncraftable with standard iron, and requiring the player to smelt it into steel (somehow) to actually be able to make it into tools. Or combine this with the above. This solution is cheesy since there'd be no logical reason for the player's inability to make tools from iron.
-Adding a tool tier above iron. Meh idea, but it'd work somewhat as long as you nerf iron armor.
Basically, pretty much every idea of mine that doesn't nerf iron spawn rate nerfs iron tools. So... yeah.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Did something happen to you in your childhood to give you this unreasonable fear of rutabaga?
A solution: keep iron the way it is, and change two things.
1. Fix cave generation so that there are less caves. Get rid of the mess we have at the moment and return to the Beta days where finding a cave was fun, and not simply routine.
2. Remove natural iron golem spawning. I have never, ever, seen a natural iron golem spawn in a natural village. Never. Just get rid of that little feature altogether, thus removing iron farms. You want to see excess iron? Get an easy to make Iron-Trench going.
Actually, with new 1.8 customization you can lower the spawn rate of iron without changing anything else. I lowered it by at least half, and survival instantaneously became more fun because I was forced to conserve iron for just the important things. I could only afford stone-tier tools for the longest time.
I believe 1.8 customization makes the "this is too common" problems obsolete.
You may be asking yourself, so what are you suggesting?
Basically, to make iron less common. It currently generates from levels 1-63, with about 1.3% of blocks in layers 5-40 composed of iron. It is found in veins of 4-10, and there are roughly 77 ore blocks per chunk. This is quite a bit. What I suggest is that it generates from levels 1-50 less commonly than it currently does, and in smaller veins of 3-6.
Of course, you may be ranting, "But now I can't get any decent armour earlier in the game!"
Have no fear, my friends. It will now be possible to craft chainmail armour in the game. How so? You may ask. First, it would require you to craft 'chains,' using iron, like so:
Doing this will yield 6 chains, so the output is double the input. These chains will now be used to craft chainmail armour in the same way one crafts other armour. It is balanced because chainmail armour is not as strong as iron armour, and breaks faster. The implementation of chains also opens up many possibilites for future crafting recipes, such as more redstone devices or tools. This also makes leather armour more important, as it will become a viable armour option again due to iron being less common. I suggest you also check out this thread regarding leather armour and how useless it is: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1448912-cows-pigs-and-the-problems-with-leather-armor/
The stats of iron tools and armour would remain unchanged, so don't worry about that.
You may argue that this makes the game 'too hard.' I completely disagree. Mobs are already not very challenging to an adept player, and if you really have that much trouble, play on easy. You may also say this makes mining boring, but if you think about it, finding iron would be something to rejoice about now, instead of just, meh, I think I'll leave it (Which I know I often do, as I find myself with heaps). It is so common at the moment that it really takes away from the interest of mining, rather than making it more engaging.
Thoughts?
- Lord Tywin Lannister
Iron is renewable, and can be farmed. The beacon is an end-game item, with not many practical applications. To be honest I don't think this is much of an issue, there is plenty of gold around still.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
I agree with this statement. However, iron is still far too common to be the second best item tier in the game. It eliminates any kind of challenge to collect.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
The only 'rare' ores in the game are diamond and emerald, if you spend any amount of time mining. Why do you assume this would make the game more hard? Making iron rarer has no relevance to the game being hard, it makes mining absolutely essential again, rather than derping around in a cave for half an hour. Also, what does this have to do with coal? I don't think the game is too easy at the beginning, I just think the progression is completely broken.
Besides, there is nothing wrong with increased difficulty, anyhow. It's a new challenge and makes you a better player.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
No.
Why not make it rarer? It not like its hard to get. It was much rarer in alpha, and it worked absolutely fine then, why not now?
Yes mate. But on earth, there are no zombies, no endermen, no magic portals that take you to a hell world, and iron is not renewable.
Please explain how this is a wishlist.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
Beacons are useless in their own right. A decent amount of the beacon items are worthless by the time you get them (Strength and Resistance), have a portable form (Swiftness and Regeneration), or are more useful when travelling (Jump Boost, Haste, and Swiftness). The only beacon effect that is actually useful is Haste since you can use it to hollow a large underground area out. After all the others are too useless if they're stuck in one place or made worthless by the fact that you already have god-tier gear.
Anyway, slightly different idea (in conjunction with reduced iron spawn rate): chain armor recipe uses the current iron armor recipe, but the current iron armor uses:
There are more problems with progression than just iron and leather, though. Nothing is stopping you from getting diamonds on the first day in complete safety (i've done it before back in beta when the game was more difficult). And personally, i'd rather get diamond armor before leather armor with your system because getting a sizeable amount of leather while still having enough cows is a royal pain. If you'd like, I can explain in more detail, but it's kind of off-topic and would probably derail the thread.
Thanks for your input. Its good to see people post feedback with reasons rather than opinion. I actually quite like your suggestions regarding chain and iron armour, I will probably update main post with your idea. (Unless, of course, you'd like to make your own thread).
I've noticed you around the forum and I agree with lots of what you have to say in regards to updates and the game's current features. If you made a thread/s compiling your ideas, I'm sure I'd support it. (We both know progression in Minecraft is botched).
Thanks for your support. I agree Minecraft probably does needs more tiers, but Mojang have said they won't be adding any more. Plus, you can't suggest any new ones on this forum without being completely shot down and crushed into the dirt by people commenting about what Mojang came out and said.
- Lord Tywin Lannister
my new server, primaldragonoftheend, is the best! join http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/servers/pc-servers/survival-servers/2446660-minecraft-1-8-survival-vanilla-bukkit-server
Yeah, at a REALLY SLOW RATE.
Iron dosen't need to be found harder. I find that after you get huge stacks of iron, there is this period of time where you don't really do anything.
No support.
However, I'm not sure if making it rarer would actually help. Iron has a myriad of uses in rails, security, and so forth, so making it uncommon would be quite annoying for people working on megaprojects.
A good compromise, I think, would be to simply make it less common at shallow depths and more slightly common at deep depths. This would keep new players from instantly getting two stacks of ingots without making the stuff as rare as gold.
I dunno, sort of support?
Although I agree that it is ridiculous when you can find this much iron, much less other stuff:
That's about 3,100 iron ore mined (less ingots from chests); I got that in 3-4 days from a single cave system, and my second return trip (admittedly, the cave system I'm exploring is the largest cave system in Minecraft history because I modified cave generation, but it is just bigger, not with more ores per chunk; if anything, less, but more exposed); I also use a backpack mod so I don't need to constantly return (some even say that diamond is too common, although 25 diamond blocks is only about 100 ore with Fortune III). I also have filled over 3 double chests with iron blocks so far...
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
IIRC the iron rarity hasn't changed from alpha to beta and beyond (except apparently for r1.7 as Caver mentioned). It's merely that after ß1.8, cave density shot up and it was thus trivial to get iron since all the caves exposed a good portion of it.
I'm also a fan of replacing the current iron with copper, though it'd become useless after obtaining iron unless it has some decent non-tool uses.
Coming back here with a new opinion: the iron spawn rate is balanced for those who end up creating a lot of hoppers and pistons and rails and whatnot. However, it's ridiculously common for someone who doesn't use such things. You may end up with several stacks of the stuff after a caving trip, yet you only need 35 (if i'm correct) for a full set of iron tools, including the hoe.
Therefore, the problem isn't really so much with rarity. It's that iron equipment is too powerful for it's rarity.
This could be solved in a few ways:
-Nerfing iron tools. Pretty mediocre solution as it'd make stone a more viable choice than it already is and would make the gap between iron and diamond even larger. You'd probably need to implement a new tier above iron for this to work. The only iron equipment that needs nerfing anyway is the armor.
-Making iron tools uncraftable with standard iron, and requiring the player to smelt it into steel (somehow) to actually be able to make it into tools. Or combine this with the above. This solution is cheesy since there'd be no logical reason for the player's inability to make tools from iron.
-Adding a tool tier above iron. Meh idea, but it'd work somewhat as long as you nerf iron armor.
Basically, pretty much every idea of mine that doesn't nerf iron spawn rate nerfs iron tools. So... yeah.
No support
And I find my self running low on iron often because all my magical hoppers
1. Fix cave generation so that there are less caves. Get rid of the mess we have at the moment and return to the Beta days where finding a cave was fun, and not simply routine.
2. Remove natural iron golem spawning. I have never, ever, seen a natural iron golem spawn in a natural village. Never. Just get rid of that little feature altogether, thus removing iron farms. You want to see excess iron? Get an easy to make Iron-Trench going.
I believe 1.8 customization makes the "this is too common" problems obsolete.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.