Gameplay
Cubic Chunks: Reduced lag, infinite height, and more [The #1 Suggestion Thread of all time!][Updated! 6/14]
Poll: Which parts of this system do you like?
Ended May 15, 2014
Poll: Which parts of this system do you NOT like?
Ended May 15, 2014
Poll: Do you support this system's implementation overall? (If yes, if
Ended May 15, 2014
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Curse PremiumSorry; I think I was mis-understood.
Making the world deeper does not, by itself, change the nature of mining from "just branching at diamond level".
The person I was replying to wanted mining to be more interesting. I was saying that COG will give you more interesting mining, and trying to say that deeper-but-similar will not.
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
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(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
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Curse PremiumThe thing is, there is no logic in the current terrain generation. Its just random (seed-generated) patches of noises crumble together to give the terrain height map.
You can't use pure logic on a game design. Minecraft doesn't need a real light source above the world to light things. (though it does calculate things that way currently) Minecraft doesn't need to apply light refraction properties to lakes and snow (i am sure it doesn't, actually)...
So no, I don't mean to introduce pure logic into terrain generation either. They would look all the same, boring flat terrains.
The way I see it, light can be generated with "light paths", that light will go through, and that the terrain generation can't block. All the space where light doesn't go, may be built with terrain blocks.
You could also put lava, glowstone to give off "unusual" light areas, and water to tamper it.
There has to be rules to go from light to terrain generation, of course.
They will simply be the same as those for light updates, to stay consistent.
But they won't be much complex. Need I remind you that Minecraft isn't supposed to be realistic ?
If you don't frown upon some floating blocks, I don't see why you would react to "unlikely" light situations.
Starting from your example:
Let's say your "light rule" is: a block is unlit if a block within 5 blocks up is opaque, and no blocks giving light is in the way. (this rule i made up from your terrain->lighting example)
So light generator says to terrain generator: "you are going to make one of those blocks opaque, rest is up to you, as long as you put no light emitter below".
Terrain generator pulls the world seed and decide to fill y=2 to y=4 with stone. If it had taken a configuration with no block from y=0 to y=5, it would just take another random try.
No extreme calculations here.
Of course, this is a simplistic example.
The light generation should put more values than a single unlit block for a chunk column. Which is why I suggest the "light path" system, to introduce diffuse lighting, reflection and such.
Don't worry, I won't bring it up again.
Also, what a marvelous 800th post for me.
also you should check out Tall Worlds
Congratulations.
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
-The Gods Of The Copybook Headings, by Rudyard Kipling.
Whoops comepletely missed that post.
I'm no expert here on procedural generation (so I could be wildly off base with my speculation here), but I think in order to use the seed in this way, you would effectively end up doing terrain generation twice (or chunk loading?). The terrain simply does not exist until it is generated and neither does any info about what that terrain will look like until it's generated. To get the same pseudorandom results based on the seed (I think anyway), the same number of random number calculations would need to happen and to happen in the same order.
So maybe you could skip some of the follow through code by calculating just the "procedural skeleton" (a.k.a. that random number set) of the terrain without bothering to do any further calculations except for the lighting info? I'm not sure how much calculation that would actually save though.
Man, you're taking things ENTIRELY too personal.
Calm down and you'll enjoy it better.
And yes, I am still the Master of Disaster.
This won't have any effect on vanilla terrain generation, only open up the possibility of much deeper worlds/higher mountains; presumably, it would be mods and custom maps that would take advantage of the effectively infinite height with perhaps an increase in vanilla terrain down the line, but not to anything extreme, and instead of just making mountains taller, much larger scale changes in average ground level can be used (e.g. look at this elevation map of the U.S.; the Rockies aren't just mountains in a near-sea level plain, the whole region is higher, unlike current world generation; plateaus are a step in that direction, but most regions are still close to sea level).
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
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Curse PremiumThe following post is meant to educate. I think you're a great person and I appreciate you posting, so don't take this personally.
A Seed is nothing more than a fancy number. But it's very easily confused and misrepresented. Why? Because if I give you a seed, you can turn it into a Minecraft world. It's really cool actually, but these little numbers, actually somehow represent a unique Minecraft world. That doesn't mean that those numbers ARE a Minecraft world. It's just a regular number. (Now, you can put letters into the box labeled "seed", but Minecraft will convert that number BACK into a number.) So to start, think of a "seed" as just being any old number. Say, 4 or 72. Just a plain number, and nothing more!
If you look at how Minecraft works, a seed is NOT a tiny compressed world. You can't just "look at a seed" and "detect if there's naturally generated terrain above you" because its just a number. When Minecraft creates a world, it uses your seed to generate new terrain, but it doesn't go "Oh, if I look at the number 42 close enough, I see mountains here." So, we can't look at a seed, and go "Oh... there are supposed to be cliffs here" It just doesn't work that way.
What is a seed then? I mean, I've already said that it's just a "number" but how is that important? This goes back to how computers work. Computers are a little funky when we generate random data. To create a random number, your computer does a little bit of math on an old number, which gives you a new one. The math is kinda complex to describe, but that's because we don't care about it. For example, think of a number. Multiply it by two... add half the original number, divide by 4... (this goes on for a bit)
Do you have any idea what your new number is going to be when you're done? No? GOOD!
Now, that's your new pseudo-random number!
Want another random number? Start the process again, except use your new number!
The seed, is the first number!
Once you get the process started, then you can continue getting random numbers. But, because it's a set of rules, if I give you a seed, you will generate the same numbers in the same order that I do! That's how this system works! (A couple of minor details were omitted from this summary, pm me if you'd like more details to how Minecraft uses this)
So, sharing a seed simply means that the "randomness" I get will look like the "randomness" on your end as well! That finally brings us back to why we can't "detect if there's naturally generated terrain above you" In order for that to occur, you need to regenerate the terrain completely! That's the problem. If we use cubic chunks, we'd have to generate every single chunk above the player, in order to make sure that there aren't any floating islands above the player. So looking at the seed, really means you're generating terrain.
Hopefully that explains a lot, but if you need more details explained, pm me, or respond if it feels appropriate in the thread. This is good discussion!
And sorry if it looked like I was taking it too personally, I was just feeling really unsure of myself after someone else made a particular post to me (I won't point out what post that was).
also you should check out Tall Worlds
-Tenth Doctor
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Curse PremiumNo problem at all!
That's... kinda the prevailing idea. Basically, assume that the area is lit up, and then if there happens to be a island floating above it, then dim the lights!
This is the same idea as maintaining a constantly updating height map! I for one, believe the height map should be rendered if it's out of render distance, but we'll see what happens.
also you should check out Tall Worlds
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Curse PremiumYou know the thing about theory and practice? Yea, about that.
Real-life worldgen shows that you can, and will, get different terrains from the same seed.
Now, vanilla _landscape_ has very little of this. Ocean/non-ocean boundary changes very little. For any given generator version, it's nicely constant. Even the location of the biomes does not change.
But the _decorations_ can, and will, change. In vanilla? Not much, but you can't call it zero anymore. Older version? Sure, they were nicely constant. So it can be made constant.
Now, how about Forge / modded minecraft?
Decorations are completely changed from generation to generation. Villages are in the same place, but have completely random layouts. Trees are different. Sand/gravel/dirt in the water is different. Etc.
Caves/ravines? Constant, every time.
There are some aspects of worldgen that are only dependent on chunk X/Z and world seed.
There are other aspects that vary based on ... who knows what.
Many people will disagree with that :-).
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
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Curse PremiumWhat if we generate the height map while world gen is running? Just run them concurrently. Make a mountain, height map goes with it. Generate a floating island later, then update the height map.
Start at spawn, and it's all lit up. Explore upwards and learn that you're in a cave. Everything will darken. That sounds a little "hacky" or even inconsistent, but at least it would work. In addition, we still have to deal with the fact that a player will go back to spawn and look up, only to see the sky again if they look up, and not the cave they're in.
Thoughts?
Light issues have long been solved by bartesx2x by range trees. Meanwhile, Mojang will not accept anything short of better than how it us currently. The way you describe this is exactly what they dont want.
No hard feelings, just saying
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Curse PremiumThis sounds like a binary search algorithm... is this the case? More details on the situation would be fantastic!