It's not necessary to make everything in Minecraft an exact parallel of reality. Pigs can provide more meat in the name of balancing the game.
However, if we were to implement a similar change, I would instead suggest using the corrected item drop rates I suggested, and then changing the porkchop's hunger restoration to a lower level. The steak would then be the rarer 'higher-end' food item, and porkchops would be 'lower-end,' to compensate for their greater abundance. If you need a logical reason to justify it (an impulse I well understand ), then consider the steak obtained from cows as being a limited 'choice cut' part of the cow, and the porkchops to be of a standard-quality. That could be why cows provide less meat than pigs. After all, in reality, porkchops are generally smaller than steak, less expensive, and considered to be less of a luxury.
Well, I often forget this is a game where you can have dirt cubes in the middle of air and exploding 4-legged penises blowing your stuff, so... nevermind my RL explanation
Well, back in the part of game mechanics, your solution would already work if, overall, all the meat the pigs dropped had bigger value than that one steak from the cow. Then, pork would be far more useful (due to being abundant) around your base, while you would still want to harvest cows for the steak, for long travels (less inventory space and whatever).
It wouldn't hurt also if pigs dropped something besides food, also - their fat could be used for torches (less charcoal grinding, this is plain annoying) or something like that. What do you think?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Magnum homo potest esse solummodo rem nunquam prae uiderit creat.
Orrr, a cow hide that can be crafted into 2 leathers. No point in a cow hide that turns into leathers, just make the cow drop leather in the first place.
Unless, of course, you made a use for cow hide, which would be a little difficult.
Simple solution
Cows: drop more leather.
Pigs: They will have chance to spawn two at each mating.
Cows and pigs becomes too powerful now compared to chicken? Then let their growth speed increase accordingly.
______
Look at cost.
Each pig, chicken and cow all requires 2 wheats to spawn.
Thus pigs are disadvantaged as they drop only meat.
We want to balance them while keeping already existing values as intact as possible.
Pork chop and steak being having same nutrition value is fine for simplicity sake.
If gathering hide and adding new item is to be avoided, lets just make cows drop more
leathers (more in steady manner) and make armors little less durable if mojang thinks its OP.
Come back to pig.
Lets them attribute their own speciality to give point in raising them in significant number.
(It looks like we will get to be able to ride pigs. I suppose from what I've crossed in forum)
Let them have chance to spawn 2 for each mating if wheats are used. (~1.2~1.4 times faster than cow)
By doing so they will increse in number faster than cows. If you already established enough
iron in your chest you would want to have more meats quickly.
However now leather can be dyed, meaning any argument of "Leather armors is not useful enough" is thrown out the window faster than the LHC can spin particles. Books also provide uses to leather.
Now the pig vs cow argument is a common one. I reviewed the stats of porkchops and beef (both cooked and raw) and this is what I've found:
Although raw beef restores the same amount of hunger as a raw porkchop, raw porkchops offer more saturation.
Both cooked version restore the same hunger and saturation
Pigs will now drop 1-3 porkchops on death. In other words, you are always going to get pork from a pig. A cow is the same way.
Pigs can be ridden (both adult and the adorabable baby piggies)
Cows can be milked an infinite number of times
Now, yes, cows offer more than pigs. However, I'd have to agree with Stravagante, although only with pigs. If pigs dropped leather, which is logical along with a reasonable buff, it would solve both the dilemma of rare leather and "usefulness" of both animals. Drop rates don't need to be adjusted; leather is meant to be somewhat difficult to get, and food isn't, much against some people's rather incorrect opinions.
Blah, blah, blah, ye cities boys and yer fancy talk. If ye don't like the suggestion, simply say it, dont beat it to death. And dying armor does nothing besides making leather armor look cooler. Leather is still just used fer books, frames and armor.
Let's not completely forget NPC trade in all of this. The argument that beef gives more drumsticks than pork doesn't fully render pork irrelevant. NPC villagers who want to buy pork will not accept beef as a substitute, so it's not a total waste of time to raise pigs, if you're going to rely at all on NPC trade.
I realize many players disdain trade, since the villagers pay such low prices for things, and charge so much, but as I experiment with it I find that there are uses for it (such as turning renewable cash crops into non-renewable goods manufactured goods).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
For philosophy, law, science, religion and other topics: A Blog of Tom
The argument that beef gives more drumsticks than pork doesn't fully render pork irrelevant.
That is not the argument, though. Beef does not restore more hunger than pork, it restores the same amount. Steak and porkchops are identical in all but name. This makes pigs irrelevant to breed because cows produce the same number of an identical food, plus they produce other items that pigs don't. Unless you take into account villager trading as you suggested, but that's fairly minor compensation and certainly not enough to tip the scales toward a proper balance, because both foods can be traded at equal value, making them once again identical and redundant except for the random chance element of what villager you get.
I'm here now in this thread. Supporting the suggestion.
I played Minecraft when cows didn't drop steak. I remember people arguing that the reason Notch left out steak was precisely because it would make pigs obsolete. But he apparently wasn't able to communicate that design idea to Jens. Jens interpreted this as damage, and "fixed" it. The same thing is happening now with carrots and potatos. Minecraft doesn't need carrots or potatos, but the team interprets their lack as damage, and fixes it.
What Minecraft needs is a few more robust systems that stake claims in design space, so new team members don't trample all over existing balance. Instead of both carrots and potatos, for example, Minecraft should just have "tubers".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I think you are going to love my Survival Let's Play series on YouTube! It's called Spaceboot1's Garden. I make pretty things.
Maybe make cows need 2 wheat per cow to breed, since they`re the biggest animals. Also make iron a little bit harder to get to make it harder to get iron armor. Maybe also implement chain links made of 1 iron ingot per 2 chain links, that make chainmail armor.
What do you think?
As I said earlier, I really don't think the solution is to make iron armor harder to obtain, but rather to make the leather resource much easier to obtain. Making cows take more wheat to breed would only compound the existing problem.
My suggestion allows us to put leather back in it's rightful place as the weakest but most commonplace armor type without having to drastically rework the entire armor system, which is what would have to happen if we attempted to change all the other armor types around leather. There's just no reason to do that though. There is no reason for leather to be anything less than commonplace and abundant. This simple tweak would correctly rebalance the armors and the farm animals at the same time with extremely minimal effort on the part of the development staff.
Since leather armor can be dyed, it can be used more for cosmetic purposes as well as simply being armor, similar to how gold has a high enchantability to offset its lack of physical protection.
Pigs could reproduce multiple piglets at a time, but this could be randonly determined.
I like this though it's a bit extreme. I think it should be 2-3 Leather and 0-2 Beef
My proposed alterations are certainly not extreme by any means. In fact, I actually lowered my original suggestions for the drop rates. My original (and preferred) suggested rate was 3-5 leather upon death. The current one is my conservative estimate.
Think about it; even if you get extremely lucky and every cow you kill gives you the full 4 proposed leather, you'll still have to kill 6 cows to get enough for a full set of armor. And the likelihood of getting a full drop every time is fairly low, so the odds are you'll need to kill closer to 7-9 cows, and possibly as many as 12. Frankly, that still doesn't strike me as easy enough to obtain leather. It would still probably be more worthwhile to focus on iron.
The player should be able to have a set of leather armor by the end of the first in-game day, because it really doesn't take very long to obtain iron, and experienced players can probably have enough iron for a suit of armor by the end of the third in-game day at most, possibly the second if you get lucky in your search for iron ore. The window in which leather armor is most relevant to the player is a relatively small one at the very beginning of the game, so the easier it is to obtain leather, the more relevant that armor option is.
As for the beef, pigs currently fulfill the exact same food option as cows, and I have not proposed any changes to their drop at this time (though as others in this thread have argued, there may be grounds to do so). Truthfully, I only kept the steak drop for logical reasons, because people in reality do eat cows so it seems logical to do so in Minecraft as well. But unless changes are made that alter steak and/or porkchops so that they are no longer identical and thus redundant, it would probably be best to simply eliminate steak altogether.
As you can see, leather has the second highest enchantability. Not to mention that it is a renewable resource (unlike the other armors). I agree that cows should drop more leather and less beef, as usually the little leather you gain is too little to do anything other than make a book (or item frames in latest snapshot). I support this and hope it's added to the game in some form.
I'd actually suggest that cows drop between 4 and 8 leather. 4 leather being the minimum so that you're guaranteed to be able to craft a pair of boots with every slain cow. 8 leather being the maximum, so if you're lucky, a single cow can net you a leather jacket.
Googling for five seconds tells me that a leather jacket for an average-sized human takes a single cow.
But think about it, you kill an entire cow, and don't even have enough leather for a pair of boots? That's simply the universe being unfair.
I'd like to be able to reenact the Douglas Adams quote: "if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I'll have it off him”."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I think you are going to love my Survival Let's Play series on YouTube! It's called Spaceboot1's Garden. I make pretty things.
Put one leather in crafting table, get leather straps, change the crafting recipe some, like 16 leather straps and 8 leather to make a full set of leather armor. Which means 12 leather to make a full set! Its not hard to gather 12 leather.
Btw, i dont know how you guys start your journey but i always gather food before i dwell into dungeons deep and caverns old!
Or Mojang could increase the spawn rate of cows and decrease for pigs. Also an option.
I dont think they should make it easier to obtain leather, cause its easy later in the game! But it should be easy to obtain leather armor early in the game!
So, if they would make a cow drop more leather or make more animals drop leather, it would be alot easier to get a lvl 30 enchanting room! I mean they decreased the bookshelf to 15 and added leather to books. So if they would make it easier to get leather they would need to make books recipes more leather needy!
So, if they would make a cow drop more leather or make more animals drop leather, it would be alot easier to get a lvl 30 enchanting room! I mean they decreased the bookshelf to 15 and added leather to books. So if they would make it easier to get leather they would need to make books recipes more leather needy!
Making leather a more common material would barely effect the difficulty of acquiring enchanting capability. At least 90% of that difficulty is in obtaining the diamond and obsidian. There's no need for the bookshelves to be difficult to assemble, as they're primarily a decorative block outside of that single practical purpose. No, enchanting would hardly be effected by this change.
Making leather a more common material would barely effect the difficulty of acquiring enchanting capability. At least 90% of that difficulty is in obtaining the diamond and obsidian. There's no need for the bookshelves to be difficult to assemble, as they're primarily a decorative block outside of that single practical purpose. No, enchanting would hardly be effected by this change.
You need 5 diamonds to be able to build an enchanting table, 3 is for the pickaxe 2 is for the enchanting table, with the pickaxe u get obsidian, which fyi can be obtained at ground lvl... How is those two things hard to get?
You need 5 diamonds to be able to build an enchanting table, 3 is for the pickaxe 2 is for the enchanting table, with the pickaxe u get obsidian, which fyi can be obtained at ground lvl... How is those two things hard to get?
Your argument seemed to be that leather shouldn't be more common because it would make obtaining bookshelves for enchanting too easy, yet now you're telling me you don't think obtaining diamond and obsidian is difficult? You have a strange sense of what is easy and what isn't.
I was merely attempting to show you that changing the commonality of leather would not have a significant affect on enchanting.
I really don't think the solution is to make iron armor harder to obtain, but rather to make the leather resource much easier to obtain.
I would say that iron should be a bit rarer, but it's unrelated to the leather issue. Iron ore got way easier to obtain with the increase in caves, while the armor got even stronger with the armor update. I think there needs to be a tweak in both leather drops and iron generation to even things out.
Your argument seemed to be that leather shouldn't be more common because it would make obtaining bookshelves for enchanting too easy, yet now you're telling me you don't think obtaining diamond and obsidian is difficult? You have a strange sense of what is easy and what isn't.
Yeah, seriously. Don't punish leather and bookshelves for a perceived lack of difficulty in obtaining diamonds.
Well, back in the part of game mechanics, your solution would already work if, overall, all the meat the pigs dropped had bigger value than that one steak from the cow. Then, pork would be far more useful (due to being abundant) around your base, while you would still want to harvest cows for the steak, for long travels (less inventory space and whatever).
It wouldn't hurt also if pigs dropped something besides food, also - their fat could be used for torches (less charcoal grinding, this is plain annoying) or something like that. What do you think?
no, wait, that's stupid
Orrr, a cow hide that can be crafted into 2 leathers.No point in a cow hide that turns into leathers, just make the cow drop leather in the first place.Unless, of course, you made a use for cow hide, which would be a little difficult.
Cows: drop more leather.
Pigs: They will have chance to spawn two at each mating.
Cows and pigs becomes too powerful now compared to chicken? Then let their growth speed increase accordingly.
______
Look at cost.
Each pig, chicken and cow all requires 2 wheats to spawn.
Thus pigs are disadvantaged as they drop only meat.
We want to balance them while keeping already existing values as intact as possible.
Pork chop and steak being having same nutrition value is fine for simplicity sake.
If gathering hide and adding new item is to be avoided, lets just make cows drop more
leathers (more in steady manner) and make armors little less durable if mojang thinks its OP.
Come back to pig.
Lets them attribute their own speciality to give point in raising them in significant number.
(It looks like we will get to be able to ride pigs. I suppose from what I've crossed in forum)
Let them have chance to spawn 2 for each mating if wheats are used. (~1.2~1.4 times faster than cow)
By doing so they will increse in number faster than cows. If you already established enough
iron in your chest you would want to have more meats quickly.
Blah, blah, blah, ye cities boys and yer fancy talk. If ye don't like the suggestion, simply say it, dont beat it to death. And dying armor does nothing besides making leather armor look cooler. Leather is still just used fer books, frames and armor.
I realize many players disdain trade, since the villagers pay such low prices for things, and charge so much, but as I experiment with it I find that there are uses for it (such as turning renewable cash crops into non-renewable goods manufactured goods).
That is not the argument, though. Beef does not restore more hunger than pork, it restores the same amount. Steak and porkchops are identical in all but name. This makes pigs irrelevant to breed because cows produce the same number of an identical food, plus they produce other items that pigs don't. Unless you take into account villager trading as you suggested, but that's fairly minor compensation and certainly not enough to tip the scales toward a proper balance, because both foods can be traded at equal value, making them once again identical and redundant except for the random chance element of what villager you get.
I played Minecraft when cows didn't drop steak. I remember people arguing that the reason Notch left out steak was precisely because it would make pigs obsolete. But he apparently wasn't able to communicate that design idea to Jens. Jens interpreted this as damage, and "fixed" it. The same thing is happening now with carrots and potatos. Minecraft doesn't need carrots or potatos, but the team interprets their lack as damage, and fixes it.
What Minecraft needs is a few more robust systems that stake claims in design space, so new team members don't trample all over existing balance. Instead of both carrots and potatos, for example, Minecraft should just have "tubers".
Want to play Minecraft SSP like Spaceboot1? Try my modpack, all mods made by me, Spaceboot1!
As I said earlier, I really don't think the solution is to make iron armor harder to obtain, but rather to make the leather resource much easier to obtain. Making cows take more wheat to breed would only compound the existing problem.
My suggestion allows us to put leather back in it's rightful place as the weakest but most commonplace armor type without having to drastically rework the entire armor system, which is what would have to happen if we attempted to change all the other armor types around leather. There's just no reason to do that though. There is no reason for leather to be anything less than commonplace and abundant. This simple tweak would correctly rebalance the armors and the farm animals at the same time with extremely minimal effort on the part of the development staff.
Pigs could reproduce multiple piglets at a time, but this could be randonly determined.
My proposed alterations are certainly not extreme by any means. In fact, I actually lowered my original suggestions for the drop rates. My original (and preferred) suggested rate was 3-5 leather upon death. The current one is my conservative estimate.
Think about it; even if you get extremely lucky and every cow you kill gives you the full 4 proposed leather, you'll still have to kill 6 cows to get enough for a full set of armor. And the likelihood of getting a full drop every time is fairly low, so the odds are you'll need to kill closer to 7-9 cows, and possibly as many as 12. Frankly, that still doesn't strike me as easy enough to obtain leather. It would still probably be more worthwhile to focus on iron.
The player should be able to have a set of leather armor by the end of the first in-game day, because it really doesn't take very long to obtain iron, and experienced players can probably have enough iron for a suit of armor by the end of the third in-game day at most, possibly the second if you get lucky in your search for iron ore. The window in which leather armor is most relevant to the player is a relatively small one at the very beginning of the game, so the easier it is to obtain leather, the more relevant that armor option is.
As for the beef, pigs currently fulfill the exact same food option as cows, and I have not proposed any changes to their drop at this time (though as others in this thread have argued, there may be grounds to do so). Truthfully, I only kept the steak drop for logical reasons, because people in reality do eat cows so it seems logical to do so in Minecraft as well. But unless changes are made that alter steak and/or porkchops so that they are no longer identical and thus redundant, it would probably be best to simply eliminate steak altogether.
From MC Wiki:
(Forum has no tables so I have to do it like this)
(Material)
(Armor enchantability)
(Sword/Tool enchantability)
Wood
N/A
15
Leather
15
N/A
Stone
N/A
5
Iron
9
14
Chain
12
N/A
Diamond
10
10
Gold
25
22
As you can see, leather has the second highest enchantability. Not to mention that it is a renewable resource (unlike the other armors). I agree that cows should drop more leather and less beef, as usually the little leather you gain is too little to do anything other than make a book (or item frames in latest snapshot). I support this and hope it's added to the game in some form.
Googling for five seconds tells me that a leather jacket for an average-sized human takes a single cow.
But think about it, you kill an entire cow, and don't even have enough leather for a pair of boots? That's simply the universe being unfair.
I'd like to be able to reenact the Douglas Adams quote: "if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I'll have it off him”."
Want to play Minecraft SSP like Spaceboot1? Try my modpack, all mods made by me, Spaceboot1!
Btw, i dont know how you guys start your journey but i always gather food before i dwell into dungeons deep and caverns old!
Or Mojang could increase the spawn rate of cows and decrease for pigs. Also an option.
I dont think they should make it easier to obtain leather, cause its easy later in the game! But it should be easy to obtain leather armor early in the game!
So, if they would make a cow drop more leather or make more animals drop leather, it would be alot easier to get a lvl 30 enchanting room! I mean they decreased the bookshelf to 15 and added leather to books. So if they would make it easier to get leather they would need to make books recipes more leather needy!
Making leather a more common material would barely effect the difficulty of acquiring enchanting capability. At least 90% of that difficulty is in obtaining the diamond and obsidian. There's no need for the bookshelves to be difficult to assemble, as they're primarily a decorative block outside of that single practical purpose. No, enchanting would hardly be effected by this change.
You need 5 diamonds to be able to build an enchanting table, 3 is for the pickaxe 2 is for the enchanting table, with the pickaxe u get obsidian, which fyi can be obtained at ground lvl... How is those two things hard to get?
Your argument seemed to be that leather shouldn't be more common because it would make obtaining bookshelves for enchanting too easy, yet now you're telling me you don't think obtaining diamond and obsidian is difficult? You have a strange sense of what is easy and what isn't.
I was merely attempting to show you that changing the commonality of leather would not have a significant affect on enchanting.
Yeah, seriously. Don't punish leather and bookshelves for a perceived lack of difficulty in obtaining diamonds.
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.