Whoa whoa who. Wow, false dichotomy much? You just claimed that a person is either A)Capable of pointing out a potential flaw or negative aspect of their own suggestion and that if A isn't true, then B must be, and that B is B)That person is stubborn and isn't open to criticism
There are other options here. Perhaps the person genuinely can't see any flaw, not because of being stubborn, but because they have discussed and refined the idea for so long that the obvious flaws have been removed? Or perhaps there simply are no flaws?
Regardless of my ability to be categorized into one of those two groups, it is still a massive logical fallacy.
Anyway, there are a few small issues. Obviously for players who are already knowledgeable of the blueprints, they might just be an annoyance. Also, we might want to make sure that if we use the "bound in blocks" idea, that the presence of blueprints doesn't lower the likelihood that ores might spawn from ore blocks.
methinks Nazzer needs to make a minecraft library on Logic and arguments when Notch makes these books & bookshelves and lets users write their own books.
No. Nothing is flawless. This is also a strange, stupid tangent.
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
methinks Nazzer needs to make a minecraft library on Logic and arguments when Notch makes these books & bookshelves and lets users write their own books.
No. Nothing is flawless. This is also a strange, stupid tangent.
That, and the Library thing was my idea. >:sad.gif:
methinks Nazzer needs to make a minecraft library on Logic and arguments when Notch makes these books & bookshelves and lets users write their own books.
No. Nothing is flawless. This is also a strange, stupid tangent.
That, and the Library thing was my idea. >:sad.gif:
I... Have no idea what that quote from me had to do with what you just posted. Were you responding to one of the other quotes, and just forgot to remove what I said?
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
Nothing is flawless? You should try thinking your silly cliche axioms out before psoting them.
Person A has a key. This key unlocks a lock. He must unlock a locked chest to which the key belogns. The key is in perfect condition. The lock is in perfect condidtion. However, there is an unlocked door between him and the lock. I propose a solution: Person A opens the door and puts the key in the lock, then turns the key.
How is this not a flawless solution? Where is the flaw? If you can't identify a flaw, how is it possible for there to be a flaw? I already defined the problem as having no obstacles other than the unlocked door.
@Duane: Wait, how is your idea anything like mine? Better yet, why the hell would you post an image detailing your idea? Why not post a link to the thread where you suggested it or whatever? Assuming you DID suggest it in a thread at some point. Are you trying to claim that my bookshelf idea was stolen from you?
Do I REALLY have to say that I ALREADY EXPLAINED THAT THAT IS IRRELEVANT?
I don't care if you think it's irrelevant, we're not talking empirical facts here..
You can't draw parallels to oblivion and compare crafting recipes with quests..
A quest is something connected to the storyline which you undertake for the sake of the experience itself and the rewards for completing it.
While a crafting recipe in Minecraft is something you use to deepen the gaming experience by allowing you to make various items, giving you more freedom. See the difference here?
One thing you unlock, the other one you experience.
No matter what you say the wiki will always be a relevant factor to consider when balancing this.
The thing that makes in-game information superior is that it's in-game and you can control when and how players get the information..
But if you give them too little they'll go to the wiki, if you give them to much they'll be overwhelmed.
Remember the only reward that a blueprint gives is knowledge, if it's too hard to get then people will search for the knowledge else where..
Did you miss the part where I explained that the reason the wiki is irrelevant is because "Some people will be fine just using the wiki. We need to consider the players that aren't."
If blueprints are only there for information and don't serve any other function, then even if they are all given at the same time, it will still be easier to have the wiki open in another tab than to go into your inventory and look at them. You are talking about making it easier for players to use the in-game blueprints than the wiki, but that is impossible, because the wiki is always going to be quicker to bring up than the blueprints.
Well lots of people are arguing so i stopped reading at a certain point to say this:
The point is, new players should EXPEREMENT with new recipes.
They were installed to add fun and diversity to the game, not make people look it up on a wiki.
And considering most craftable objects are made the way they look they should be, you shouldnt have to wiki-search it.
BUT i do like this idea.
[ill edit later i have to go now sorry]
Books are an interesting thing to add. If you've played Ultima online you'll know that players can write books for various reasons. While I personally loved the idea and even wrote a few short story's of my own I could never find any story's made by other players. The only books I found were basically spam for guild recruits, marketing, and I even found a wedding invitation :laugh.gif:
Mine craft is a bit different so while I go look through some of the shorter posts How would player writen books be dispersed or even seen in the non bookshelf world if at all.
Also nazz I'm certain there will be a crafting menu because the current crafting system is crap. Blueprints are a nice idea but only if they are worth getting and not necessary for game play .
I tried experimenting, it got me nowhere... I was unable to discover any new craftable objects through guessing, until I found the wiki.
I agree with Nazzer here. Let people use the wiki if they like, it doesn't matter. there are many who won't because it's no fun, who won't want to 'cheat', who don't know about the wiki, and for them, a fun, in-game discovery system will be required.
The game should not be designed with a cheat-sheet in mind, just because there is one.
And I'll repeat my suggestion from earlier in this thread; the game could simply not allow items to be crafted that the user Shouldn't know about yet. Then, if they look things up on the wiki, it doesn't help them anyway because they need blueprints before they can use that information.
And I'll repeat my suggestion from earlier in this thread; the game could simply not allow items to be crafted that the user Shouldn't know about yet. Then, if they look things up on the wiki, it doesn't help them anyway because they need blueprints before they can use that information.
That's... What's the word I'm looking for.
Really damn frustrating. Like, Tear-out-what-hair-I-have-left frustrating.There's a difference between a diving board and a cliff, referring to what would happen to the learning curve.
"Hey, I'm doing pretty good. What else can I craf-"
You don't have the blueprint for that!
"...Crap.."
I'd imagine that finding the blueprint for a Wooden Pick and then another for Stone would just be silly after a while. Let's just give a universal one for "Pick".
I already talked about making sure that theres a balance between getting too many blueprints at the start and making sure the blueprints are available, and, if you read the thread i posted in this thread's OP, youll see i already agreed with a system to dole out blueprints based on a tiering/relevancy system.
The most important thing to consider is if people will use the in-game system or the wiki, because it's useless to design something no one will use.
there will always be people who will use the in-game system, because they haven't found the wiki. I don't think 'no one' using the in-game system is going to be a problem.
It should remain fun, yes, and waiting around for templates is probably not fun. I suppose they ought to be available pretty quickly after you're theoretically able to use them... I do agree that making everything available at the start is inelegant, although an in-game list that the players can check once they get the materials wouldn't be so bad, I just think there could be a more exciting way
the findable blueprints idea is one such way. Lets say you start the game with nothing but your fist, and you break some dirt, after a few blocks of dirt are collected, you get a blueprint saying "Log -> wood, 2 wood -> stick" so you turn your attention to the trees, in order to start making wood, and sticks.
eventually a blueprint falls out of a log. It says "4 woods -> workbench. Set it on the ground and right-click to use." and "2 stick, 3 wood -> wooden pickaxe" says the next blueprint. and so you build a workbench, and build your first pickaxe.
and on like that. This could just be how the Tutorial mode works, or it could be how the rest of the game works, or players could just use a list and make things as soon as they have the materials.
And somehow this has to do with books and bookshelves but I've forgotten why already.
"Some people will be fine just using the wiki. We need to consider the players that aren't."
My blueprint idea solves this.
Don't compare this to doing a quest in Oblivion and figuring out a recipe. With recipes, you have no clue about the shape of the object, or even what material you need to use, where as a quest is direct and you have a quest marker to take you there. A wiki is way more tempting to use in Minecraft.
Quote from Nazzer »
If blueprints are only there for information and don't serve any other function, then even if they are all given at the same time, it will still be easier to have the wiki open in another tab than to go into your inventory and look at them. You are talking about making it easier for players to use the in-game blueprints than the wiki, but that is impossible, because the wiki is always going to be quicker to bring up than the blueprints.
Yeah, it will probably always be quicker, but we're trying to not make it as tempting.
You're classifying everyone into catagories, when infact, there are no catagories. There are only degrees.
For example,
1. To find the location of the final relic, you have to fight a horde of zombies and solve 5 puzzles through a dungeon.
The player decides that would take way too long, presses the windows key, and uses a wiki.
2. To find the location of the final relic, you have to go up to the temple and ask the monk.
The player decides that would be simple enough, because he doesn't want to break the flow of the game, goes up, quickly talks to the monk, and has the location.
The player is the same person in both scenarios. Does this apply to everyone? No. Some people are at different degrees of the scale, some have different breaking points before they decide that enough is enough before they use a wiki.
But a tutorial "Breaks the immersion too much." ?
No. Just make that "Tutorial" button lead somewhere and call it a day. I wish I weren't the only one excited about books.
Right. As far as actual books go, whether or not they contain are used with a blueprint system, it could be fun. Players creating a book could add custom text, which could be readable to others who find it, or a custom/dungeon style map could have books as an in-game element for back-stories or hints
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No. Nothing is flawless. This is also a strange, stupid tangent.
That, and the Library thing was my idea. >:sad.gif:
I... Have no idea what that quote from me had to do with what you just posted. Were you responding to one of the other quotes, and just forgot to remove what I said?
Person A has a key. This key unlocks a lock. He must unlock a locked chest to which the key belogns. The key is in perfect condition. The lock is in perfect condidtion. However, there is an unlocked door between him and the lock. I propose a solution: Person A opens the door and puts the key in the lock, then turns the key.
How is this not a flawless solution? Where is the flaw? If you can't identify a flaw, how is it possible for there to be a flaw? I already defined the problem as having no obstacles other than the unlocked door.
@Duane: Wait, how is your idea anything like mine? Better yet, why the hell would you post an image detailing your idea? Why not post a link to the thread where you suggested it or whatever? Assuming you DID suggest it in a thread at some point. Are you trying to claim that my bookshelf idea was stolen from you?
^^My blog^^
Did you miss the part where I explained that the reason the wiki is irrelevant is because "Some people will be fine just using the wiki. We need to consider the players that aren't."
^^My blog^^
^^My blog^^
^^My blog^^
The point is, new players should EXPEREMENT with new recipes.
They were installed to add fun and diversity to the game, not make people look it up on a wiki.
And considering most craftable objects are made the way they look they should be, you shouldnt have to wiki-search it.
BUT i do like this idea.
[ill edit later i have to go now sorry]
Yes, so I can make use of my Library/live out my idea.
facepalm of the month- dra6o0n
Books are an interesting thing to add. If you've played Ultima online you'll know that players can write books for various reasons. While I personally loved the idea and even wrote a few short story's of my own I could never find any story's made by other players. The only books I found were basically spam for guild recruits, marketing, and I even found a wedding invitation :laugh.gif:
Mine craft is a bit different so while I go look through some of the shorter posts How would player writen books be dispersed or even seen in the non bookshelf world if at all.
Also nazz I'm certain there will be a crafting menu because the current crafting system is crap. Blueprints are a nice idea but only if they are worth getting and not necessary for game play .
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Retired StaffI agree with Nazzer here. Let people use the wiki if they like, it doesn't matter. there are many who won't because it's no fun, who won't want to 'cheat', who don't know about the wiki, and for them, a fun, in-game discovery system will be required.
The game should not be designed with a cheat-sheet in mind, just because there is one.
And I'll repeat my suggestion from earlier in this thread; the game could simply not allow items to be crafted that the user Shouldn't know about yet. Then, if they look things up on the wiki, it doesn't help them anyway because they need blueprints before they can use that information.
That's... What's the word I'm looking for.
Really damn frustrating. Like, Tear-out-what-hair-I-have-left frustrating.There's a difference between a diving board and a cliff, referring to what would happen to the learning curve.
"Hey, I'm doing pretty good. What else can I craf-"
You don't have the blueprint for that!
"...Crap.."
^^My blog^^
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Retired Staffthere will always be people who will use the in-game system, because they haven't found the wiki. I don't think 'no one' using the in-game system is going to be a problem.
It should remain fun, yes, and waiting around for templates is probably not fun. I suppose they ought to be available pretty quickly after you're theoretically able to use them... I do agree that making everything available at the start is inelegant, although an in-game list that the players can check once they get the materials wouldn't be so bad, I just think there could be a more exciting way
the findable blueprints idea is one such way. Lets say you start the game with nothing but your fist, and you break some dirt, after a few blocks of dirt are collected, you get a blueprint saying "Log -> wood, 2 wood -> stick" so you turn your attention to the trees, in order to start making wood, and sticks.
eventually a blueprint falls out of a log. It says "4 woods -> workbench. Set it on the ground and right-click to use." and "2 stick, 3 wood -> wooden pickaxe" says the next blueprint. and so you build a workbench, and build your first pickaxe.
and on like that. This could just be how the Tutorial mode works, or it could be how the rest of the game works, or players could just use a list and make things as soon as they have the materials.
And somehow this has to do with books and bookshelves but I've forgotten why already.
^^My blog^^
My blueprint idea solves this.
Don't compare this to doing a quest in Oblivion and figuring out a recipe. With recipes, you have no clue about the shape of the object, or even what material you need to use, where as a quest is direct and you have a quest marker to take you there. A wiki is way more tempting to use in Minecraft.
Yeah, it will probably always be quicker, but we're trying to not make it as tempting.
You're classifying everyone into catagories, when infact, there are no catagories. There are only degrees.
For example,
1. To find the location of the final relic, you have to fight a horde of zombies and solve 5 puzzles through a dungeon.
The player decides that would take way too long, presses the windows key, and uses a wiki.
2. To find the location of the final relic, you have to go up to the temple and ask the monk.
The player decides that would be simple enough, because he doesn't want to break the flow of the game, goes up, quickly talks to the monk, and has the location.
The player is the same person in both scenarios. Does this apply to everyone? No. Some people are at different degrees of the scale, some have different breaking points before they decide that enough is enough before they use a wiki.
No. Just make that "Tutorial" button lead somewhere and call it a day. I wish I weren't the only one excited about books.
That sounds nerdier when I say it out loud.
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