Nazzer, I think the point is that it would be weird if blueprints were found exclusively in ruins..
What would a player do until they've found a blueprint if they don't know how to craft anything, they'd have to find a ruin and somehow manage to kill a mob and hope it would drop a blueprint, this whole process makes it redundant because he could just check the wiki and start playing the game right away, which is how it should be, or else 90% of all players would feel lost in the game, most wouldn't even make it to a ruin before they just quit..
Imagine if in oblivion, that something that is the very basic of the game, like keybinds for the controls could only be found in ruins, I think most players would prefer to just wiki it so they could play the game without having to find a ruin to explore when not even knowing the keybinds...
What I want is just something like 90% of all blueprints available from scratch somehow, but some of the more rare stuff being dropped by mobs, which is a cool way to discover things before it makes it into the wikipedia.
Perhaps all new stuff could be hidden like that, would make exploration more fun..
They won't have no idea about crafting from the beginning of the game. The tutorial would take care of that. And there have already been multiple suggestions about different ways to handle finding blueprints, all of which could be implemented together, and yet you seem to think that I'm only in support of whatever the last suggestion I defended was. When you can find blueprints bound up in blocks, laying around ruins, and being dropped by mobs, and when you are told during the tutorial that they can be found in places like these, new players won't have any problem finding them. There won't be any need for users being required to rely on a third-party source of information, which would be a major design flaw.
And I also disagree with your analogy. This is more like if Oblivion required players to look for notes lying around the world to find alchemy recipes. Or having to find books that told them good class types to make.
Difference is that alchemy is far from required to play oblivion..
While crafting in Minecraft is essential to know from the start..
The thing is that you were defending this idea as an exclusive way of acquiring blueprints, at least that was what other people argued against..
For blueprints to be effective this way it means they will have to drop before the player can make the actual item, because otherwise the wiki is superior.
Perhaps, to keep some of the mystery for new players the blueprints could be unlocked as soon as you have enough materials for them.
Just read that thread. Do it, man, for the sake of the world. I'm tired of talking past you, of you bringing up that stupid wiki argument as if I never addressed it, and of you failing to bring any new suggestion other than repeating your "give them all the blueprints at once, thus overloading them with information and making it impossible for them to be willing to stick with the game" drivel.
I'm being hostile because you are ignoring my points completely. I already explained why your wiki argument is invalid: making the game reliant on an outside source is a design flaw. A game must be self-contained unless breaking the fourth wall is part of it's aesthetic (e.g. MGS). A player who has never even heard of a wiki should be able to play the game without being forced to open a new tab or window and consult a third party source to use an essential feature. This is like forcing players to go to a wiki to look up the functions of all the items in Oblivion. But no, you seem to think that this game should be closed off to only be played by a select group of people, and that outsiders should be barred from playing it due to inaccessible features.
Until you address this point, I'm not addressing any other point you make. Except the one about blueprints being accessible from the begining:
What I want is just something like 90% of all blueprints available from scratch somehow,
And before you say "Ha, the jokes on you, I said 90%, not all, wow, you're so stupid"**** you, because that is a completely irrelevant matter since in both cases, the player is being given too much information all at once and some players will get frustrated and quit before giving minecraft a proper chance. It's an important rule of sandbox game design that you have to introduce players to new things a little bit at a time.
I already explained why your wiki argument is invalid: making the game reliant on an outside source is a design flaw. A game must be self-contained unless breaking the fourth wall is part of it's aesthetic (e.g. MGS).
You must be confusing me with someone else or you're seeing everything in black and white!
I never said there shouldn't be an in-game way of learning how to craft.
I'm merely pointing out that it must be design in such a way so that using the wiki instead doesn't give you a huge advantage which would make this in-game information redundant.
But that's STILL an invalid argument! Why? Because it will ALWAYS be very easy to go to the wiki! But how easy it is to go to the wiki is IRRELEVANT because we aren't trying to figure out how to make sure that the average wiki-goer isn't tempted to use the wiki, we're trying to make the game self contained! Again, STOP USING THAT FALLACIOUS ARGUMENT.
Quote from Nazzer »
Until you address this point, I'm not addressing any other point you make. Except the one about blueprints being accessible from the begining:
So first you're saying I'm against in-game info and only want the wiki and now you're pointing to this saying I do want 90% of the blueprints available from in-game scratch..
It's not my fault you aren't being clear. You keep bringing the wiki up as being superior even though I've pointed out both the irrelevancy and fallacy of that argument.
Yes I do agree that it will be confusing for new players if all blueprints are introduced at the same time.
So the best idea would be to have these blueprints not available from scratch but unlocked through some kind of logical progression like as soon as you have the necessary materials, or in tiers.
LIKE I SAID IN THAT OTHER THREAD THAT WAS LINKED AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS GODDAMMED THREAD?!?!?!
Quote from Nazzer »
And before you say "Ha, the jokes on you, I said 90%, not all, wow, you're so stupid"**** you
Now you're just being a douche...
How can you insult me for something I haven't even said, that's a whole new level of hostility.
This clearly shows you're just posting to insult anyone who points out any flaws in your ideas.
Stop posting using emotions and start posting using logic.
Obviously you don't understand how an "if" statement works. Were you about to say that you said 90% not all? No? Then the rest of the statement doesn't apply.
Quote from Nazzer »
the player is being given too much information all at once and some players will get frustrated and quit before giving minecraft a proper chance. It's an important rule of sandbox game design that you have to introduce players to new things a little bit at a time.
I fully agree.
One last thing though, if you would have to point out any potential flaw or negative thing with your suggestion then what would that be?
If you can't even do that then you're just being stubborn and further discussion will not be constructive in any way..
Whoa whoa who. Wow, false dichotomy much? You just claimed that a person is either A)Capable of pointing out a potential flaw or negative aspect of their own suggestion and that if A isn't true, then B must be, and that B is B)That person is stubborn and isn't open to criticism
There are other options here. Perhaps the person genuinely can't see any flaw, not because of being stubborn, but because they have discussed and refined the idea for so long that the obvious flaws have been removed? Or perhaps there simply are no flaws?
Regardless of my ability to be categorized into one of those two groups, it is still a massive logical fallacy.
Anyway, there are a few small issues. Obviously for players who are already knowledgeable of the blueprints, they might just be an annoyance. Also, we might want to make sure that if we use the "bound in blocks" idea, that the presence of blueprints doesn't lower the likelihood that ores might spawn from ore blocks.
How is claiming that a flawless solution to a problem can exist a logical fallacy? If you are given a game of super mario brothers and are told "show me the final screen of this game", what flaw is there in going on google and showing them the final screen if they will accept that as a solution?
one problem I see in having no pre-made building or books, would be that it would be insanely boring to explore on a new server, also it would be nice to find an ancient library full of stories, maybe somehow from other servers?
how would the tutorial books/blueprints become available to the new players?
one problem I see in having no pre-made building or books, would be that it would be insanely boring to explore on a new server, also it would be nice to find an ancient library full of stories, maybe somehow from other servers?
how would the tutorial books/blueprints become available to the new players?
I like the idea of doing something like spore, where player-made structures that are deemed "replicatable" are assumed into other servers, perhaps in a ruined form if the admin wishes, and randomly placed in the map.
And the books and blueprints in the tutorial woudl be given during the tutorial, obviously. The player will be walked through the features of minecraft, and when it comes time for the tutorial to explain crafting, it would give the player his first blueprint, probably a stick or workbench.
I disagree with all of the premade stuff. Well, maybe not ALL of it, but a great deal of it. Perhaps, if there are NPCs, we can buy crafting instruction books from them?
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This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
There's two things in a game that every game should have. Immersion and Rewarding you FOR that immersion. Meaning that if you're in a cave, your reward is ore, if you're on the surface, your reward could be anything from plants and trees to safety during the day. Neither of those areas contain the word "Blueprint".
I'm completely fine with blueprints, but giving them all at the start is stupid, and placing them randomly, given infinite maps' size, or even a small map's size, is equally stupid. Why not just add a tutorial and call that a done deal? Books, however, are an excellent idea. Hell, I'd personally place books around the starting spawn for new players to read.
after reading through yet another pointless off-topic argument, I've thought of a few things. For one, Nazzer and Seisky seem to be agreeing, but arguing still about the manner of agreement. Yes, Requiring using the wiki punishes new players who don't know about it, and takes away from game immersion. Obviously this shall be changed. And yes, giving all the information to the player right at the start is overwhelming and not fun... especially if knowing it all is required to progress. if anyone's played the text game Achaea, they know this first hand, I'm sure.
in response to Duane, you could have blueprints be randomly found As If they were hidden around the map-- but rather than have their location pre-planned, and hoping that the player stumbles across it, have the next blueprint in a tech-tree have, say, a 5 percent chance of being dug up whenever a player breaks a block of dirt.
In response to the concern that the wiki will remain a superior reference to anything in-game if it's too hard to get blueprints, one solution to this, although a potentially frustrating one, is having things be impossible to craft until the blueprints have been found. Sure, you know what shape a pickaxe needs, but until you find blueprints proving that that shape is a pickaxe, the game tells you "You don't know how to make that."
I know I've seen this dynamic work well before.... I just can't remember where yet.
There's two things in a game that every game should have. Immersion and Rewarding you FOR that immersion. Meaning that if you're in a cave, your reward is ore, if you're on the surface, your reward could be anything from plants and trees to safety during the day. Neither of those areas contain the word "Blueprint".
I'm completely fine with blueprints, but giving them all at the start is stupid, and placing them randomly, given infinite maps' size, or even a small map's size, is equally stupid. Why not just add a tutorial and call that a done deal? Books, however, are an excellent idea. Hell, I'd personally place books around the starting spawn for new players to read.
Why not have a tutorial that takes the player step by step through every possible crafting option? Because not only would that make crafting boring, it would take the wonder and excitement out of crafting something new for the first time.I remember the first time I crafted TNT and how awesome it felt. Imagine if you did that in a tutorial, which would give you all the required materials before teaching you, no doubt. Now you didn't work to craft anything, you were just given the materials and told exactly what to do, only to have them taken from you when you start the actual game.
Tutorials that require you to perform a specific action again and again will just turn players off. "go here. mine iron ore. go here. make furnace. smelt iron. make pickaxe. go here. mine iron ore. go to furnace. smelt iron. make shovel. go here. rinse. repeat."
Players will be bored of the game too soon. Theyll think "Is this all you do? Mine and make tools? This is boring!"
If it were all in close proximity, I'd imagine it wouldn't be too bad. It could teach you a basic wooden toolset and then tell you that there are others, but that's for you to find out. Just knowing how to make a wooden pick was a big leap just for me. I kept trying it with nothing but sticks, :wink.gif:
Well, that's what you do in the game..
What you could do is present it in a way so the player gets more freedom..
For example:
1. Find some wood and craft 8 planks and 12 sticks.
(click here for more specific information about planks, sticks or where to find wood)
2. Craft a tool using wood.
[Insert list of basic tools]
(click on a tool to see how to craft it)
3. [Depending on what tool the player crafts, the next task is related to the tool crafted.]
What is most important is that the player can choose and skip steps of the tutorial, it needs to be flexible to suit the sandbox experience..
Remember that all of us here used the wiki and it turned out rather well because you could look up something you wanted to craft and then just craft it.
So I don't think a tutorials or blueprints should limit a players freedom too much when he starts playing.
I've been thinking about the blueprint idea though..
If notch added 25 new craftable items tomorrow through blueprints, would you wait for them to drop for you or go to the forums/wiki to find out what other players had found?
That's exactly why they need to be easy to get. Hardly anyone is going to attempt to find them through monster drops.
Do I REALLY have to say that I ALREADY EXPLAINED THAT THAT IS IRRELEVANT?
It's like saying that because using the UESP is easier than finding the solutions to quests on Oblivion, it should be easier to discover the solutions to quests in-game.
Saying "Well using the wiki will be easier" doesn't mean that the game should be easier just to beat the ease of using the wiki. Users that use wikis will use wikis. Users not already familiar with wikis might have a harder time than you. They might just throw their hands up and say "Well, if the developer isn't trying, then why should I?" (or, as is more likely, they'll just be confused and give up.)
You need to learn a little bit about game design. Go do ourself some learning. Make a few games yourself, get some feedback, watch people play. Some people will be fine just using the wiki. We need to consider the players that aren't.
Well perhaps there would be other ways to acquire these things? For example, i already proposed ancient ruins being placed int he game,and Notch confirmed the possibility of randomly generated Goblin villages. Perhaps those would allow you to get blueprints and books?
You're missing the point.
Blue prints are meant to help new players.
How would a new player aquire blueprints if they're in the middle of a monster filled town.
Think about that before your next response.
Or instead of arguing over who's rebutting what and why (i read the posts below this original one), we can just wait for notch to put that "Play tutorial game" button into use so all the newbies can get a good explanation of how to play Minecraft. I have to agree with what Rub10 says here though. Here are some more of my ideas... OR
Until the Play Tutorial game button level thing works, Notch should add this book idea and put at least 2-3 bookshelves (in the default house you start out with) of 2 books each bookshelf on game explanation so the user can open the bookshelf like a crafting bench and then select 1 of the two books to read which would then be overlayed onto the screen with a Next page and Previous page button on the right and left sides of the book. amirite?
these books could include a few tips on basic crafting layouts for basic tools and such, how to gather/mine things, overview of all the controls available, basic tips on killing zombies, what to watch out for (dont jump off cliffs, lava will burn you so does fire, but not torch fire, and water from the ocean can flood what's left open)
This makes it easier for the "computer illiterate" poor noob, so they don't have to go to the wikis and look it up because chances are some people dont even know what a wiki is (7 year olds have been known to use the internet).
There need to be underground and above ground ruins made by Notch and then kinda randomized, but also have a chance of them containing treasures inside of them, like in the building part not buried.
Whoa whoa who. Wow, false dichotomy much? You just claimed that a person is either A)Capable of pointing out a potential flaw or negative aspect of their own suggestion and that if A isn't true, then B must be, and that B is B)That person is stubborn and isn't open to criticism
There are other options here. Perhaps the person genuinely can't see any flaw, not because of being stubborn, but because they have discussed and refined the idea for so long that the obvious flaws have been removed? Or perhaps there simply are no flaws?
Regardless of my ability to be categorized into one of those two groups, it is still a massive logical fallacy.
Anyway, there are a few small issues. Obviously for players who are already knowledgeable of the blueprints, they might just be an annoyance. Also, we might want to make sure that if we use the "bound in blocks" idea, that the presence of blueprints doesn't lower the likelihood that ores might spawn from ore blocks.
methinks Nazzer needs to make a minecraft library on Logic and arguments when Notch makes these books & bookshelves and lets users write their own books.
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They won't have no idea about crafting from the beginning of the game. The tutorial would take care of that. And there have already been multiple suggestions about different ways to handle finding blueprints, all of which could be implemented together, and yet you seem to think that I'm only in support of whatever the last suggestion I defended was. When you can find blueprints bound up in blocks, laying around ruins, and being dropped by mobs, and when you are told during the tutorial that they can be found in places like these, new players won't have any problem finding them. There won't be any need for users being required to rely on a third-party source of information, which would be a major design flaw.
And I also disagree with your analogy. This is more like if Oblivion required players to look for notes lying around the world to find alchemy recipes. Or having to find books that told them good class types to make.
^^My blog^^
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10296
Just read that thread. Do it, man, for the sake of the world. I'm tired of talking past you, of you bringing up that stupid wiki argument as if I never addressed it, and of you failing to bring any new suggestion other than repeating your "give them all the blueprints at once, thus overloading them with information and making it impossible for them to be willing to stick with the game" drivel.
^^My blog^^
Until you address this point, I'm not addressing any other point you make. Except the one about blueprints being accessible from the begining:
And before you say "Ha, the jokes on you, I said 90%, not all, wow, you're so stupid"**** you, because that is a completely irrelevant matter since in both cases, the player is being given too much information all at once and some players will get frustrated and quit before giving minecraft a proper chance. It's an important rule of sandbox game design that you have to introduce players to new things a little bit at a time.
^^My blog^^
Obviously you don't understand how an "if" statement works. Were you about to say that you said 90% not all? No? Then the rest of the statement doesn't apply.
Whoa whoa who. Wow, false dichotomy much? You just claimed that a person is either A)Capable of pointing out a potential flaw or negative aspect of their own suggestion and that if A isn't true, then B must be, and that B is B)That person is stubborn and isn't open to criticism
There are other options here. Perhaps the person genuinely can't see any flaw, not because of being stubborn, but because they have discussed and refined the idea for so long that the obvious flaws have been removed? Or perhaps there simply are no flaws?
Regardless of my ability to be categorized into one of those two groups, it is still a massive logical fallacy.
Anyway, there are a few small issues. Obviously for players who are already knowledgeable of the blueprints, they might just be an annoyance. Also, we might want to make sure that if we use the "bound in blocks" idea, that the presence of blueprints doesn't lower the likelihood that ores might spawn from ore blocks.
^^My blog^^
Speaking of fallacies...
^^My blog^^
how would the tutorial books/blueprints become available to the new players?
I like the idea of doing something like spore, where player-made structures that are deemed "replicatable" are assumed into other servers, perhaps in a ruined form if the admin wishes, and randomly placed in the map.
And the books and blueprints in the tutorial woudl be given during the tutorial, obviously. The player will be walked through the features of minecraft, and when it comes time for the tutorial to explain crafting, it would give the player his first blueprint, probably a stick or workbench.
^^My blog^^
I'm completely fine with blueprints, but giving them all at the start is stupid, and placing them randomly, given infinite maps' size, or even a small map's size, is equally stupid. Why not just add a tutorial and call that a done deal? Books, however, are an excellent idea. Hell, I'd personally place books around the starting spawn for new players to read.
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Retired Staffin response to Duane, you could have blueprints be randomly found As If they were hidden around the map-- but rather than have their location pre-planned, and hoping that the player stumbles across it, have the next blueprint in a tech-tree have, say, a 5 percent chance of being dug up whenever a player breaks a block of dirt.
In response to the concern that the wiki will remain a superior reference to anything in-game if it's too hard to get blueprints, one solution to this, although a potentially frustrating one, is having things be impossible to craft until the blueprints have been found. Sure, you know what shape a pickaxe needs, but until you find blueprints proving that that shape is a pickaxe, the game tells you "You don't know how to make that."
I know I've seen this dynamic work well before.... I just can't remember where yet.
I ate yours...
Why not have a tutorial that takes the player step by step through every possible crafting option? Because not only would that make crafting boring, it would take the wonder and excitement out of crafting something new for the first time.I remember the first time I crafted TNT and how awesome it felt. Imagine if you did that in a tutorial, which would give you all the required materials before teaching you, no doubt. Now you didn't work to craft anything, you were just given the materials and told exactly what to do, only to have them taken from you when you start the actual game.
No. Just no.
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Players will be bored of the game too soon. Theyll think "Is this all you do? Mine and make tools? This is boring!"
^^My blog^^
That's exactly why they need to be easy to get. Hardly anyone is going to attempt to find them through monster drops.
It's like saying that because using the UESP is easier than finding the solutions to quests on Oblivion, it should be easier to discover the solutions to quests in-game.
Saying "Well using the wiki will be easier" doesn't mean that the game should be easier just to beat the ease of using the wiki. Users that use wikis will use wikis. Users not already familiar with wikis might have a harder time than you. They might just throw their hands up and say "Well, if the developer isn't trying, then why should I?" (or, as is more likely, they'll just be confused and give up.)
You need to learn a little bit about game design. Go do ourself some learning. Make a few games yourself, get some feedback, watch people play. Some people will be fine just using the wiki. We need to consider the players that aren't.
^^My blog^^
Or instead of arguing over who's rebutting what and why (i read the posts below this original one), we can just wait for notch to put that "Play tutorial game" button into use so all the newbies can get a good explanation of how to play Minecraft. I have to agree with what Rub10 says here though. Here are some more of my ideas...
OR
Until the Play Tutorial game button level thing works, Notch should add this book idea and put at least 2-3 bookshelves (in the default house you start out with) of 2 books each bookshelf on game explanation so the user can open the bookshelf like a crafting bench and then select 1 of the two books to read which would then be overlayed onto the screen with a Next page and Previous page button on the right and left sides of the book. amirite?
these books could include a few tips on basic crafting layouts for basic tools and such, how to gather/mine things, overview of all the controls available, basic tips on killing zombies, what to watch out for (dont jump off cliffs, lava will burn you so does fire, but not torch fire, and water from the ocean can flood what's left open)
This makes it easier for the "computer illiterate" poor noob, so they don't have to go to the wikis and look it up because chances are some people dont even know what a wiki is (7 year olds have been known to use the internet).
There need to be underground and above ground ruins made by Notch and then kinda randomized, but also have a chance of them containing treasures inside of them, like in the building part not buried.
methinks Nazzer needs to make a minecraft library on Logic and arguments when Notch makes these books & bookshelves and lets users write their own books.