Nothing is flawless? You should try thinking your silly cliche axioms out before psoting them.
Person A has a key. This key unlocks a lock. He must unlock a locked chest to which the key belogns. The key is in perfect condition. The lock is in perfect condidtion. However, there is an unlocked door between him and the lock. I propose a solution: Person A opens the door and puts the key in the lock, then turns the key.
How is this not a flawless solution? Where is the flaw? If you can't identify a flaw, how is it possible for there to be a flaw? I already defined the problem as having no obstacles other than the unlocked door.
@Duane: Wait, how is your idea anything like mine? Better yet, why the hell would you post an image detailing your idea? Why not post a link to the thread where you suggested it or whatever? Assuming you DID suggest it in a thread at some point. Are you trying to claim that my bookshelf idea was stolen from you?
So like, I'm taking philosophy of religions this semester, so do I have to take Logic next semester just to keep up with you guys?
Nothing is flawless? You should try thinking your silly cliche axioms out before psoting them.
Person A has a key. This key unlocks a lock. He must unlock a locked chest to which the key belogns. The key is in perfect condition. The lock is in perfect condidtion. However, there is an unlocked door between him and the lock. I propose a solution: Person A opens the door and puts the key in the lock, then turns the key.
How is this not a flawless solution? Where is the flaw? If you can't identify a flaw, how is it possible for there to be a flaw? I already defined the problem as having no obstacles other than the unlocked door.
Flaw: He has absolutely no reason to open the chest, other than you said so.
Flaw: Why isn't the door locked? I mean, that just sounds like an arbitrary extra step.
Also, what the hell do you mean by "perfect condition"? From the point of an object's assembly, it is a consistent process of corrosion and degradation. Any tiny nick in the surface of the key, for example, would be a flaw. Any errors in the production process of the lock, would be a flaw. Flaws can also be defined by a given person's perspective. Any weaknesses in the wood of the chest, for example, could be considered a flaw, as anyone without the key could smash the box.
Certainly opening the box with the key is the simplest and most logical solution, but it isn't the only one. He could smash the box, for example. And anyone who would prefer to smash the box would consider his method flawed.
Nothing is perfect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
This may be a fad, but I love dragons, so why the heck not?
Flaw: He has absolutely no reason to open the chest, other than you said so.
That's not a flaw in the solution to his problem, numbskull.
Flaw: Why isn't the door locked? I mean, that just sounds like an arbitrary extra step.
That is irrelevant. It isn't a part of the problem. Saying "Why isnt the door locked" is just the same as saying "why didn't you define a more difficult problem", which is irrelevant to the issue of whether a flawless solution to a problem exists. Nice try on attempting to move the goalposts.
Also, what the hell do you mean by "perfect condition"? From the point of an object's assembly, it is a consistent process of corrosion and degradation. Any tiny nick in the surface of the key, for example, would be a flaw. Any errors in the production process of the lock, would be a flaw. Flaws can also be defined by a given person's perspective. Any weaknesses in the wood of the chest, for example, could be considered a flaw, as anyone without the key could smash the box.
I mean perfect in a practical sense, meaning that there aren't any imperfections that will affect the ability of the lock to be successfully operated. I didn't mean perfect in a philisophical sense. I'll address your pitiful "break the box" argument later in the post.
Certainly opening the box with the key is the simplest and most logical solution, but it isn't the only one. He could smash the box, for example. And anyone who would prefer to smash the box would consider his method flawed.
That a Solution "B" is possible does not mean that a Solution "A" is flawed. Furthermore, you are attempting to move the goalposts, adjusting the scenario to outside the parameters I gave. I did not define the box as having weak wood, or the person as being particularly violent or destructive. Also, the problem was defined not as "the person must get the contents of the chest", it was "the person must UNLOCK THE CHEST". So on top of moving the goalposts, you are constructing a straw man. You fail at logic.
Nothing is perfect.
A=B.
B=C.
A=C.
The last statement of that series of logical connections is perfect. Drop the stupid axioms. You obviously don't think them through.
Okay, okay, guys, let's be civil. This whole logic debate is getting pretty ridiculous (albeit very entertaining.)
I have a sort-of novel idea, though I'm sure it's been said before; what if there were two types of plans for crafting, so-called "recipes" and so-called "blueprints" (obviously these wouldn't be permanent.) Recipes are the plans that the player can get just by being in the game. Every time the player breaks a block, or crafts an item in the crafting menu, and kills a monster, they get some "points" (invisible, only the game engine can see them.)
Then, after a certain amount of points, the player has a choice to unlock a new recipe or not. If they choose to, they are given the order of the blocks in the crafting menu needed to make the item, just like in the wiki. However, blueprints would be a different story.
Blueprints would only be attainable by chance, be it through killings monsters, exploring ancient ruins, following treasure maps, being hidden in 1/10,000 blocks, etc. These blueprints would expedite the process of making certain items, because in the crafting menu, every item you have a blueprint for would be listed on the side of the menu. If you click on the icon for your blueprinted item, the materials are automatically subtracted from your inventory and crafting begins, making it much simpler to mass-produce items.
If you aren't dealing with items that need to be mass-produced, however, the blueprints also increase the integrity of the object, giving it more time before it breaks. This would make it beneficial to spend more time in game, and wouldn't be possible through the wiki.
This distinction between recipes and blueprints would make it easy for new players to discover how to make things while still valuing experimentation (even if you don't have the recipe, you can still make it), but also rewards players for spending time in the game.
On a more on-topic note, I think books are a great idea. This would allow for interaction between players, even when one of the players is offline, and could lead to a whole new era of in-Minecraft games. Two thumbs up for that plan!
I think I'll refine this thread in a digestible format and submit it to Notch in the form of a design document. You know, remove the needless squabbling and just put the ideas proposed.
I think there's a deceptively simple answer to a lot of this.
Have the player start with a book: Beginner's Guide to Minecraft.
If you put simple drawing in books (like a 9x9 grid, or some other size, with a basic palette so you can put down some colors, and different block types, sorta like we have here on the forum) you won't need you can add the extra descriptions in the text above and below the picture. Under a picture showing how to make a wood sword, add "By the way, you can use stone, iron, diamond, or even gold. But don't sue gold, as it sucks. Just replace. the planks there, with stone." Put the essentials in a book that the player starts with. Add in how to hunt and so on.
So on books:
The tricky part is how to make them. Making a page should be it's own menu. Maybe have a top, middle, and bottom, each with a toggle button for a picture, or text. Consumes 1 ink item and a sheet of paper to make. Then there is binding. There's talk of different craft stations, maybe one just for books? Maybe one for LONGER books, but shorter books can be made in a normal craft station. Say you need some binding material (Leather? metal or stone too I suppose, or just cloth, minor detail) and some string, so where = binding material, [iron] = string, and = each page, you'd make:
[iron]
(Page 1,2,3)
(Page 4,5,6)
Then the better station would allow for more pages, or just use multiple volumes.
On sources of books:
A lot of various debate here I see. I think random drops of blueprints out of the dirt is a little silly. From the above you can guess that I don't even think there's a need for a dedicated blueprint object if we have books we can both write and draw in. That way, you don't find just a blueprint, you find a whole explanation, possibly flavored to the game? Elder scrolls got a lot of mention on the previous posts, and it's true that books gave a lot of depth. Having players write a compendium on alchemy, having hunted down all the random drops of alchemy books, maybe just pages, sounds fun for the person doing it, and interesting to players who read it. Actually, finding a torn out page from an older tome that contains a short blurb for how to make a single item makes a lot of sense to me.
The only problem I see with ruins is that they'd either be so dense as to clutter the landscape, or so sparse as to not have enough for even a moderate sized group, and that they would additionally be fully stripped of their various resources. But it's true that sparse ruins, which do in fact have some books or pages in them would be one way to work them in, so: If there ARE ruins, then let them have pages out of books, but don't make ruins appear just to find pages out of books.
Monster drops work well enough, but it's important to look beyond "monsters drops books." What sort of books should they drop? If you clutter up the game with a lot of redundant pages, blueprints, or books, they'll just be used in the furnace. Sure, that's just luck, and I know if I could burn string, I would. At the same time, having a random zombie drop "Here's how to make a diamond sword" isn't an insignificant detail to consider. It could actually be a great boon to the random new player who finds such a page. But will this make it likely that the blueprint is too common? Well if someone really wants to know, it's true that they can just look it up. I guess I don't have any specific recommendations on how to balance that though.
The alternative of course is that players who have read the wiki write the books and those get passed around. But I do think some basic books should exist that collectively contain almost all possible recipes, and that they should be in the world when it starts. It's important to note that the more available methods to distribute them, the less any one will stand out.
On requiring blueprints:
I am definitely against this. Adding an arbitrary requirement to make something would replace having to arrange things on the craft table. You may as well put the blueprint on the table (Just a 1x1 slot) and have it pull the items from your inventory automatically. It's just the opposite direction things appear to be heading in. Someone should be able to just tell you "Use three mercury, and three diamond on a gold sword to get a diamond sword" and that work. Otherwise the blueprints will be more valuable than, well, anything. It also means they things ONLY come from monsters, etc. especially if they're CONSUMED. The current system is only a development model, but that's so far away from the current system it's not likely, and certainly not desired by me. The "blueprint" is the order you arrange your materials in. Either you know about it, or you don't.
An interesting idea:
If a person makes some large number of copies of a book, it could enter the random drop list. While this has the potential to saturate the drops with garbage, by that point hopefully ACTUAL books will be available beyond the random drops to provide that information. Also, having an admin way to cleanup this list would be important.
I hate the forced blueprint idea. The player should be able to build whatever they want from the beginning. Why does the game itself need to tell people how to build things? What's so bad about a manual?
Player-written books, on the other hand, sound awesome. I would love to keep a journal of my adventures, speaking heroically of my deeds across the Minecraftian caves and mountaintops, and then drop it when I die for someone else to find.
"I heard the telltale hiss of the creeping monstrosity and leapt to action! My steel severed its head in naught but three swings, and it fell dead at my feet. I shuddered as the spoils of powder emptied onto the ground. As I collected them, I wondered to myself: What manner of creature has no blood in its veins? Surely it is a demon. I pressed onward, not knowing what I would find below..."
Yes please. This idea wins too hard to be ignored. I'd also like to see players uploading books to some sort of online repository where Notch could look through them once in a while and add them to the game. Fantastic idea.
Quote from Seiseki »
I'm talking about a certain pain-threshold here..
What kind of limitations would we as players be able to accept?
If the answer is none, then the best thing to do would be to just add all recipes in-game the same way they're presented in the wiki.
But that might be bad for new players.
An in-game feature would have the advantage of controlling when and how a player learns a recipe, it could be done by relevance (when you have the materials) or progressive (tier after tier).
The way I've envisioned recipes is that they would all be available to view by pressing esc -> crafting, and you would get a long list with images, including those you haven't found a blueprint for which would just have their name in gray with a lock next to them.
Reminds me of a thread I made about encyclopedias that filled out as you killed things and crafted items.
I'm really glad people are enjoying my book idea. Some of you may remember my Minecraft version of The Raven. Someone suggested that that be one of the pre-made random drops in the game.
I think that the book drops could take the place of loading-screen tips and hints. I'd love to find that a new player found a book drop that told the story of a man whose house kept filling with smoke every time he tried to use a torch or the furnace, only to realize the need for a chimney whenever a creeper destroyed his roof, allowing the smoke to escape. The user, who was having the same issue, would then get the idea to do exactly that. This would be a more engaging and less fourth-wall-shattering way to give players such hints.
(Obviously most users wouldn't be so dumb that they couldn't figure out that they need a chimney, but this is just an example of such a problem.)
I'm really glad people are enjoying my book idea. Some of you may remember my Minecraft version of The Raven. Someone suggested that that be one of the pre-made random drops in the game.
I think that the book drops could take the place of loading-screen tips and hints. I'd love to find that a new player found a book drop that told the story of a man whose house kept filling with smoke every time he tried to use a torch or the furnace, only to realize the need for a chimney whenever a creeper destroyed his roof, allowing the smoke to escape. The user, who was having the same issue, would then get the idea to do exactly that. This would be a more engaging and less fourth-wall-shattering way to give players such hints.
(Obviously most users wouldn't be so dumb that they couldn't figure out that they need a chimney, but this is just an example of such a problem.)
I like it!
Perhaps a roundabout way of providing recipes without providing the exact layout you need to make the item.
That is a curious idea. Just to be sure I understand what you mean, under your proposed system a player might come across a book describing a man's struggle to effectively kill spiders, since it is too difficult to do from up close. He explains that he found that making a wooden crescent connected by a tight string would allow him to launch the tiny spears that skeletons dropped back at the skeletons. Later, you might find another book, which would be another journal entry from the same person, explaining the process of creating arrows from feathers, wood, and stone, since skeleton slaying is so dangerous.
I believe we should be able to make blue prints via Cloth and possibly Dye.
We could make them and store them on walls or in bookshelves and people could come to your house and take a copy of the Blue prints. (once made anyone could take one but the original would stay)
The blue prints could show people the view of your house, how to make a trap, weapon or what ever you want
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All you purple hippies bang your heads on the wall!
Seeing as Notch is going to keep stats, i'd like to see the books turn these stats into an 'auto diary' of sorts, with the option of writing in them to add details to the auto-filled data. Eg. A day might say chopped down x logs, made y planks, placed y planks. The player might write, "Built my first house." giving meaning to the data.
It might be an idea to change the recipe for the bookshelves somewhat, so that the player would craft an empty book-shelf and then proceed to fill it as they make and fill-in more books.
The books should work as one page per MC day, and any data recorded while the player does not have a book made would be added to new books as they are made, so that players don't lose the 'story' of their MC life just because they didn't have the chance to make a book. Maybe 20-30 MC days per book and 10-20 books per shelf?? It can't be too few pages or books because then you'd find yourself needing a massive library way too fast.
So like, I'm taking philosophy of religions this semester, so do I have to take Logic next semester just to keep up with you guys?
Flaw: He has absolutely no reason to open the chest, other than you said so.
Flaw: Why isn't the door locked? I mean, that just sounds like an arbitrary extra step.
Also, what the hell do you mean by "perfect condition"? From the point of an object's assembly, it is a consistent process of corrosion and degradation. Any tiny nick in the surface of the key, for example, would be a flaw. Any errors in the production process of the lock, would be a flaw. Flaws can also be defined by a given person's perspective. Any weaknesses in the wood of the chest, for example, could be considered a flaw, as anyone without the key could smash the box.
Certainly opening the box with the key is the simplest and most logical solution, but it isn't the only one. He could smash the box, for example. And anyone who would prefer to smash the box would consider his method flawed.
Nothing is perfect.
That's not a flaw in the solution to his problem, numbskull.
That is irrelevant. It isn't a part of the problem. Saying "Why isnt the door locked" is just the same as saying "why didn't you define a more difficult problem", which is irrelevant to the issue of whether a flawless solution to a problem exists. Nice try on attempting to move the goalposts.
I mean perfect in a practical sense, meaning that there aren't any imperfections that will affect the ability of the lock to be successfully operated. I didn't mean perfect in a philisophical sense. I'll address your pitiful "break the box" argument later in the post.
That a Solution "B" is possible does not mean that a Solution "A" is flawed. Furthermore, you are attempting to move the goalposts, adjusting the scenario to outside the parameters I gave. I did not define the box as having weak wood, or the person as being particularly violent or destructive. Also, the problem was defined not as "the person must get the contents of the chest", it was "the person must UNLOCK THE CHEST". So on top of moving the goalposts, you are constructing a straw man. You fail at logic.
A=B.
B=C.
A=C.
The last statement of that series of logical connections is perfect. Drop the stupid axioms. You obviously don't think them through.
^^My blog^^
I have a sort-of novel idea, though I'm sure it's been said before; what if there were two types of plans for crafting, so-called "recipes" and so-called "blueprints" (obviously these wouldn't be permanent.) Recipes are the plans that the player can get just by being in the game. Every time the player breaks a block, or crafts an item in the crafting menu, and kills a monster, they get some "points" (invisible, only the game engine can see them.)
Then, after a certain amount of points, the player has a choice to unlock a new recipe or not. If they choose to, they are given the order of the blocks in the crafting menu needed to make the item, just like in the wiki. However, blueprints would be a different story.
Blueprints would only be attainable by chance, be it through killings monsters, exploring ancient ruins, following treasure maps, being hidden in 1/10,000 blocks, etc. These blueprints would expedite the process of making certain items, because in the crafting menu, every item you have a blueprint for would be listed on the side of the menu. If you click on the icon for your blueprinted item, the materials are automatically subtracted from your inventory and crafting begins, making it much simpler to mass-produce items.
If you aren't dealing with items that need to be mass-produced, however, the blueprints also increase the integrity of the object, giving it more time before it breaks. This would make it beneficial to spend more time in game, and wouldn't be possible through the wiki.
This distinction between recipes and blueprints would make it easy for new players to discover how to make things while still valuing experimentation (even if you don't have the recipe, you can still make it), but also rewards players for spending time in the game.
On a more on-topic note, I think books are a great idea. This would allow for interaction between players, even when one of the players is offline, and could lead to a whole new era of in-Minecraft games. Two thumbs up for that plan!
^^My blog^^
^^My blog^^
Have the player start with a book: Beginner's Guide to Minecraft.
If you put simple drawing in books (like a 9x9 grid, or some other size, with a basic palette so you can put down some colors, and different block types, sorta like we have here on the forum) you won't need you can add the extra descriptions in the text above and below the picture. Under a picture showing how to make a wood sword, add "By the way, you can use stone, iron, diamond, or even gold. But don't sue gold, as it sucks. Just replace. the planks there, with stone." Put the essentials in a book that the player starts with. Add in how to hunt and so on.
So on books:
The tricky part is how to make them. Making a page should be it's own menu. Maybe have a top, middle, and bottom, each with a toggle button for a picture, or text. Consumes 1 ink item and a sheet of paper to make. Then there is binding. There's talk of different craft stations, maybe one just for books? Maybe one for LONGER books, but shorter books can be made in a normal craft station. Say you need some binding material (Leather? metal or stone too I suppose, or just cloth, minor detail) and some string, so where = binding material, [iron] = string, and = each page, you'd make:
[iron]
(Page 1,2,3)
(Page 4,5,6)
Then the better station would allow for more pages, or just use multiple volumes.
On sources of books:
A lot of various debate here I see. I think random drops of blueprints out of the dirt is a little silly. From the above you can guess that I don't even think there's a need for a dedicated blueprint object if we have books we can both write and draw in. That way, you don't find just a blueprint, you find a whole explanation, possibly flavored to the game? Elder scrolls got a lot of mention on the previous posts, and it's true that books gave a lot of depth. Having players write a compendium on alchemy, having hunted down all the random drops of alchemy books, maybe just pages, sounds fun for the person doing it, and interesting to players who read it. Actually, finding a torn out page from an older tome that contains a short blurb for how to make a single item makes a lot of sense to me.
The only problem I see with ruins is that they'd either be so dense as to clutter the landscape, or so sparse as to not have enough for even a moderate sized group, and that they would additionally be fully stripped of their various resources. But it's true that sparse ruins, which do in fact have some books or pages in them would be one way to work them in, so: If there ARE ruins, then let them have pages out of books, but don't make ruins appear just to find pages out of books.
Monster drops work well enough, but it's important to look beyond "monsters drops books." What sort of books should they drop? If you clutter up the game with a lot of redundant pages, blueprints, or books, they'll just be used in the furnace. Sure, that's just luck, and I know if I could burn string, I would. At the same time, having a random zombie drop "Here's how to make a diamond sword" isn't an insignificant detail to consider. It could actually be a great boon to the random new player who finds such a page. But will this make it likely that the blueprint is too common? Well if someone really wants to know, it's true that they can just look it up. I guess I don't have any specific recommendations on how to balance that though.
The alternative of course is that players who have read the wiki write the books and those get passed around. But I do think some basic books should exist that collectively contain almost all possible recipes, and that they should be in the world when it starts. It's important to note that the more available methods to distribute them, the less any one will stand out.
On requiring blueprints:
I am definitely against this. Adding an arbitrary requirement to make something would replace having to arrange things on the craft table. You may as well put the blueprint on the table (Just a 1x1 slot) and have it pull the items from your inventory automatically. It's just the opposite direction things appear to be heading in. Someone should be able to just tell you "Use three mercury, and three diamond on a gold sword to get a diamond sword" and that work. Otherwise the blueprints will be more valuable than, well, anything. It also means they things ONLY come from monsters, etc. especially if they're CONSUMED. The current system is only a development model, but that's so far away from the current system it's not likely, and certainly not desired by me. The "blueprint" is the order you arrange your materials in. Either you know about it, or you don't.
An interesting idea:
If a person makes some large number of copies of a book, it could enter the random drop list. While this has the potential to saturate the drops with garbage, by that point hopefully ACTUAL books will be available beyond the random drops to provide that information. Also, having an admin way to cleanup this list would be important.
Player-written books, on the other hand, sound awesome. I would love to keep a journal of my adventures, speaking heroically of my deeds across the Minecraftian caves and mountaintops, and then drop it when I die for someone else to find.
"I heard the telltale hiss of the creeping monstrosity and leapt to action! My steel severed its head in naught but three swings, and it fell dead at my feet. I shuddered as the spoils of powder emptied onto the ground. As I collected them, I wondered to myself: What manner of creature has no blood in its veins? Surely it is a demon. I pressed onward, not knowing what I would find below..."
Reminds me of a thread I made about encyclopedias that filled out as you killed things and crafted items.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11782
I think that the book drops could take the place of loading-screen tips and hints. I'd love to find that a new player found a book drop that told the story of a man whose house kept filling with smoke every time he tried to use a torch or the furnace, only to realize the need for a chimney whenever a creeper destroyed his roof, allowing the smoke to escape. The user, who was having the same issue, would then get the idea to do exactly that. This would be a more engaging and less fourth-wall-shattering way to give players such hints.
(Obviously most users wouldn't be so dumb that they couldn't figure out that they need a chimney, but this is just an example of such a problem.)
^^My blog^^
I like it!
Perhaps a roundabout way of providing recipes without providing the exact layout you need to make the item.
^^My blog^^
We could make them and store them on walls or in bookshelves and people could come to your house and take a copy of the Blue prints. (once made anyone could take one but the original would stay)
The blue prints could show people the view of your house, how to make a trap, weapon or what ever you want
It might be an idea to change the recipe for the bookshelves somewhat, so that the player would craft an empty book-shelf and then proceed to fill it as they make and fill-in more books.
The books should work as one page per MC day, and any data recorded while the player does not have a book made would be added to new books as they are made, so that players don't lose the 'story' of their MC life just because they didn't have the chance to make a book. Maybe 20-30 MC days per book and 10-20 books per shelf?? It can't be too few pages or books because then you'd find yourself needing a massive library way too fast.