this idea, when originally thought of, seemed to be a compromise idea, more than an effective alternative to the bow. if you sort through this thread you might find upgraded ideas to this, right now I'm trying to convince others to support the firearms involved in the idea in my signature.
I feel that there are a few ways that guns can be balanced that should be discussed. In fact, it is possible to make the gun well balanced by making it more realistic. People tend to think of modern weapons when thinking of guns, but in fact the earliest firearms were, in many ways, actually less effective than bows. Their main advantage was not in power, accuracy, or speed, but in ease of use. However, by combining modern impressions with antique functions, we can get something that can fit into Minecraft quite well.
The first thing to pin down is the role of a firearm's role in Minecraft. I think that it's pretty well agreed that it would be a later-game weapon, requiring the player to be a bit established before making it. On top of that, though, I would say that it shouldn't simply be a "better bow", but fill a specialized role. Here are a few possibilities:
Armour Piercing - There are several mobs in the game that have an armour rating. As such, even if the actual damage of a firearm were less than a bow (and as most firearms have smaller projectiles than arrows they actually do cause less damage) it would be more effective on those enemies, but not on others.
Midrange Combat - A bow is fairly good at range, but it loses damage when not fully charged, making it less effective at intermediate distance, especially if the target is closing in. By contrast, older firearms, lacking the rifled barrels of later designs, were notably ineffectual at range. Indeed, this is why colonial-era armies used rows of soldiers firing in volleys, rather than snipers. So, a firearm might take less time to reload than a bow, but do slightly more damage than a bow that isn't fully drawn back, exchanging being wildly inaccurate past a certain distance for this.
Crowd Control - All existing weapons are single-target. A low-damage but high knockback weapon with a spread could be used to effectively "juggle" groups of mobs, trading the cost of ammunition and inefficiency at dispatching targets for the ability to deal with groups of enemies. This would be useful, as it is currently very easy to deal with single mobs, but groups can quickly become overwhelming.
Versatility - Normally one has the choice of a fast up-close weapon or a slow ranged weapon. A firearm could potentially offer a trade between the two. For this, we look to an old invention that has somewhat fallen out of favour...the bayonet. This would allow a hypothetical firearm to serve two roles, though being less effective at either. In this case, the advantage is in having one tool for many situations, rather than having to switch back and forth, as well as offering the ability for the weapon to remain useful when ammo runs out.
Of course, people have concerns about the balance of firearms as well. Would a gun simply be overpowered? Well...no. In fact, that's kind of silly to think. Yes, an overpowered gun could be made. Mojang could also make it so that a Diamond sword instantly kills on a critical hit and chops their head off, because it's just that sharp. We take it on faith that they wouldn't do that. However, while it's perfectly reasonable to do so, why take it on faith that Mojang would be able to balance firearms if they were introduced. Here are some examples of real-world properties that old-fashioned guns have, that could be used for balance (some of them are also mentioned above):
Inaccuracy at Range - As mentioned above, early smoothbore weapons had a great deal of deviation. Unlike the predictable arc of a bow, firearms might shoot anywhere in a randomized cone, so that past a certain range they never hit what they are pointed at.
Multi-Item Loading - With a bow, you have one piece of ammunition, the arrow. The earliest firearms, however, didn't have the single contained bullet that we know today. Instead, both the actual "bullet" and the powder to fire it were separate. What this means for gameplay is that in addition to bullets for the gun, the gunpowder would be needed as its own item, meaning that where a gun uses two inventory slots, firearms would use three. Or, if it were a matchlock weapon string and/or torches might be needed as well.
Delayed Firing - One common complaint I hear about the inclusion of guns is that they would be "point and click". Actually, though, this is inconsistent with firearms prior to the invention of percussion caps. Early firearms had to ignite loosely packed powder through direct application of flame or a fuse of some sort. As a result, they actually had a delay between pulling the trigger and being fired. In game, this could mean that a gun would look similar to a Creeper, flashing briefly before shooting. This would lead to two changes for gameplay. First, players would have to learn to lead their shot to compensate, and secondly, it would telegraph the attack, making it harder to catch someone by surprise in PVP.
Momentary Vulnerability - Many people fear that guns would lead to sniping. In actuality, a bow or crossbow was much better for this than early firearms were. There are a number of things which contribute to this. However, the overall effect is the same. After firing a gun, one was much more open to attack than someone firing a bolt or arrow would have been. This one is actually a group of a few related issues.
Reload Time - Unlike a bow (though like a crossbow), a gun cannot simply be fired with a shorter pull. It must be fully reloaded. While this would likely still be shorter than the full pull on a bow, for gameplay purposes, it would definitely be more time than the minimum pull, or swinging a sword. If further combined with delayed fire, this could put a player on the defensive when using a gun, forcing them to pick targets carefully.
Visual Indicator - Smokeless powder is a fairly recent invention. Comparatively, old-style firearms using simple black powder gave off a big white cloud every time that they went off. So, in Minecraft, a gun could reasonably be expected to produce explosion particles, like TNT or the Enderdragon. This would make it hard to hide when one uses a gun.
Significant Recoil - Even modern firearms have a fair amount of kick to them. Early ones had to fire far less aerodynamic projectiles. Basically, assume that when one fires, their camera angle is skewed upward and to one side, forcing them to correct their aim. Not only would this briefly keep them from seeing what state the target is in, it would also make it that much harder to take multiple quick shots in succession.
This also ties in with the smoke cloud, which could obscure vision as well.
Audible Firing - Guns are loud. Those earmuffs on the firing range aren't there to keep you warm. It's an explosion, however contained it may be. So, when you use a gun, everyone around is going to know about it. No stealth there. You shoot, and people know someone's shooting, and will look for you. This could even be extended to mobs, by having some of them seek out or flee the source of noise, as appropriate.
Cost to Create - I'm not going to say that cost is a huge balancing factor. Obviously, if something is basically overpowered to begin with, then all the cost in the world won't make up for the effects of someone actually getting it. However, as long as an item is basically fair to begin with, then a bit of extra cost will put off its acquisition to an appropriate point in gameplay. So, let's look at the two things that can go into costs.
The Weapon - Obviously, to use a gun, you'll have to make a gun. Now, at its most basic, a firearm is just a metal tube and a way to hold it. That said, there's a lot of flexibility here. If the weapon has a bayonet, that's an extra iron. If you want a more "realistic" barrel, it might use a bucket, adding two. Levers are easy to make, but what if the trigger uses a stone button or tripwire hook? Either can be justified, and take a bit more resources to craft. If we deem firearms a machine and include redstone, that delays things too. Does the striking mechanism mean using a Flint and Steel? Does complex internal workings mean it needs gold? All of these things change how much work, and how much time, it takes to start using firearms.
The Ammo - This is, actually, one of the biggest limiting factors for any potential firearm in the game. While arrows can be obtained easily from Skeletons, ammunition for guns would have to be crafted. Gunpowder is obviously going to be an element. It only comes from dangerous mobs, but one of them can be farmed, so let's look at the other components. If we use cartridges, then either paper or wool is needed. However, again, these can be farmed...though it is worth noting that wool is a bit harder to farm than paper, due to the need to either breed sheep and slaughter them (for low returns) or spend iron on shears. That leaves the load...the bullet itself. This is usually assumed would be iron, a plentiful material, and farmable. However, as bullets are typically made from soft, dense lead, I propose that soft, dense gold could be used. In the overworld, gold is less common, and farming it requires dealing with Zombie Pigmen in the Nether. Thus it is another thing which would make firearms more difficult to maintain.
A final note, regarding multi-item loading - In addition to taking up more inventory space, a gun that used several items at a time might be more expensive to craft. For example, suppose you had to melt down individual gold nuggets to make bullets, plus have gunpowder, plus have string or torches for an ignition. Each shot becomes a greater investment. Though it might be worth it, if the gun is balanced correctly, the player would still be encouraged not to waste ammunition.
Now, I'm not saying a gun needs all of these to be balanced. Far from it. The point of this list (and it is by no means exhaustive) is simply to illustrate some of the possibilities available when designing a balanced gun, both to make it useful without overshadowing the bow, and to make it strong, with clear limits that keep it from being overpowering. A good gun would use some elements from each list, picked and chosen over, and possibly along with novel elements not even brought up here, to make something that is fun to play with, but doesn't detract from existing gameplay...instead enhancing it.
I have nothing against guns and firearms in Minecraft, but I feel like adding more content isn't what Mojang should be focusing on. They should work on fixing broken or useless game mechanics such as hunger and smooth out the difficulty curve.
I know you are trying to make firearms a balanced alternative that is better for other aspects of combat, but why not copy the logic of melee weapons, higher build and maintenance cost equals better weapon (but not grossly better, just more practical overall for combat). I will admit I saw it was needed In my idea to make an attempt to nerf how much better they are than bows though.
I know you are trying to make firearms a balanced alternative that is better for other aspects of combat, but why not copy the logic of melee weapons, higher build and maintenance cost equals better weapon (but not grossly better, just more practical overall for combat). I will admit I saw it was needed In my idea to make an attempt to nerf how much better they are than bows though.
Even if one were to take the approach of making guns a direct improvement over bows (which I personally think is not the correct approach) a lot of what I said still holds water. By the simple fact of what they are, firearms wouldn't behave in the same manner as a bow, nor be crafted the same way. So, where with swords it's a simple matter of "Replace Material X with Material Y, increase damage and durability", any kind of gun would require a few trade-offs to get an equivalent cost to power ratio.
Although, for another view of guns, check out this thread, and see my proposal for weapons that are all equivalent, but each do more damage than the others against specific enemies.
Even if one were to take the approach of making guns a direct improvement over bows (which I personally think is not the correct approach) a lot of what I said still holds water. By the simple fact of what they are, firearms wouldn't behave in the same manner as a bow, nor be crafted the same way. So, where with swords it's a simple matter of "Replace Material X with Material Y, increase damage and durability", any kind of gun would require a few trade-offs to get an equivalent cost to power ratio.
Although, for another view of guns, check out this thread, and see my proposal for weapons that are all equivalent, but each do more damage than the others against specific enemies.
you've got a point, but although they don't require the same crafting pattern, I think it would be a nice addition/hard work award if firearms were added. But nobody wants to spend all those resources to get something that just does what the bow does, better. So I think the new ranged weapon tier system could be 3 alternatives (atlatl or sling, bow, and "arquebus", they would be close range high rate of fire, mid ranged, and long ranged low rate of fire), but the arquebus could be a sniper specific weapon, BUT keep in mind that you can hit targets with a bow from 90 blocks away (tested and confirmed) and still do a fair amount of damage. then as a tier up add the breecher and improved muskets.
-with the last part in mind, you could make the arquebus do 9 hearts of damage and have straight range of 100 blocks (meaning if you fire parallel with the ground it will travel for 100 blocks before hitting ground), it would travel at 150 m/s (bow fires at 52m/s) and have a charging period of 2.8 seconds, but the projectile would leave a longer trail than the normal bow and it would be more visible trail.
-then as a weapon that is better overall than all, but not better than role specific weapons(meaning they aren't as good as sniping or close range specific weapons), you could have the muskets I added or something like that.
I'll take Mid Range/Crowd Control, with gravel for ammo and crafting to reload.
I'm against crafting to reload, as a rule, because while it does create a slowdown and vulnerability during reloading, it also has a simple workaround. Just craft a lot of loaded guns - at least enough to take out one or two targets - and you can chain-fire them in succession. Once the enemy is dead, you're safe to reload the lot of them, and repeat. While there are other factors that can be used to prevent that, I feel that having to load via right click, with the loaded state lost if you switch to another weapon, as a bow would be, is a far more elegant and simple solution.
I couldn't agree more. Guns do need some sort of limiting reloading between fire, but as I have said before, crafting to reload feels far too clunky and awkward compared to simply holding the right mouse button to reload.
I propose that people must answer this short quiz before anyone takes them seriously, regardless of whether they are pro or anti-gun.
When were guns invented?
How do guns function?
Are all firearms self-loading?
What are muzzleloaders?
Is modern machinery required to build a functional gun?
That should clear up some issues around here and get rid of the endless spamming of "all guns are sniper machine guns with suppressors that make them completely silent!"
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i give support. i made a similar post like this but my gun was the flintlock pistol but this works too. but these guns did not have superior accuracy so thats the only flaw
i give support. i made a similar post like this but my gun was the flintlock pistol but this works too. but these guns did not have superior accuracy so thats the only flaw
What do you support? This is more of a discussion than a suggestion, so please be more specific.
When were guns invented? China,12th century or so.
How do guns function? Gunpowder burns, forming gas that forces a projectile out of a barrel.
Are all firearms self-loading? No.
What are muzzleloaders? Loaded from the front.
Is modern machinery required to build a functional gun? Sten guns were DESIGNED to be built in a smithy. It can also be done with AKs.
Crossbows would be a good addition, but other guns would just ruin the feel of the game.
Please be more specific about what the "feel" is, and how it would be ruined.
Also, before I hear someone say bows are inherently low tech and guns are inherently high tech, let me present this:
It still proves my point that bows are not inherently simple and that gunpowder weaponry is not inherently complex.
Right, but to perform its basic function in an easy to use manner, a Bow doesn't need all those extra mechanics.
You put some string on a bendy stick, pull back and things in front of you die.
Whereas the ancient gun (The one you showed) was incredibly unwieldy and inaccurate.. A lot of hassle to go through just to get one shot off on a mob.
Which is why I support slightly more advanced things like pirate style Cannons, Grenades, and portable Grenade Launchers.
http://www.minecraft...ranged-weapons/
The first thing to pin down is the role of a firearm's role in Minecraft. I think that it's pretty well agreed that it would be a later-game weapon, requiring the player to be a bit established before making it. On top of that, though, I would say that it shouldn't simply be a "better bow", but fill a specialized role. Here are a few possibilities:
- Armour Piercing - There are several mobs in the game that have an armour rating. As such, even if the actual damage of a firearm were less than a bow (and as most firearms have smaller projectiles than arrows they actually do cause less damage) it would be more effective on those enemies, but not on others.
- Midrange Combat - A bow is fairly good at range, but it loses damage when not fully charged, making it less effective at intermediate distance, especially if the target is closing in. By contrast, older firearms, lacking the rifled barrels of later designs, were notably ineffectual at range. Indeed, this is why colonial-era armies used rows of soldiers firing in volleys, rather than snipers. So, a firearm might take less time to reload than a bow, but do slightly more damage than a bow that isn't fully drawn back, exchanging being wildly inaccurate past a certain distance for this.
- Crowd Control - All existing weapons are single-target. A low-damage but high knockback weapon with a spread could be used to effectively "juggle" groups of mobs, trading the cost of ammunition and inefficiency at dispatching targets for the ability to deal with groups of enemies. This would be useful, as it is currently very easy to deal with single mobs, but groups can quickly become overwhelming.
- Versatility - Normally one has the choice of a fast up-close weapon or a slow ranged weapon. A firearm could potentially offer a trade between the two. For this, we look to an old invention that has somewhat fallen out of favour...the bayonet. This would allow a hypothetical firearm to serve two roles, though being less effective at either. In this case, the advantage is in having one tool for many situations, rather than having to switch back and forth, as well as offering the ability for the weapon to remain useful when ammo runs out.
Of course, people have concerns about the balance of firearms as well. Would a gun simply be overpowered? Well...no. In fact, that's kind of silly to think. Yes, an overpowered gun could be made. Mojang could also make it so that a Diamond sword instantly kills on a critical hit and chops their head off, because it's just that sharp. We take it on faith that they wouldn't do that. However, while it's perfectly reasonable to do so, why take it on faith that Mojang would be able to balance firearms if they were introduced. Here are some examples of real-world properties that old-fashioned guns have, that could be used for balance (some of them are also mentioned above):- Inaccuracy at Range - As mentioned above, early smoothbore weapons had a great deal of deviation. Unlike the predictable arc of a bow, firearms might shoot anywhere in a randomized cone, so that past a certain range they never hit what they are pointed at.
- Multi-Item Loading - With a bow, you have one piece of ammunition, the arrow. The earliest firearms, however, didn't have the single contained bullet that we know today. Instead, both the actual "bullet" and the powder to fire it were separate. What this means for gameplay is that in addition to bullets for the gun, the gunpowder would be needed as its own item, meaning that where a gun uses two inventory slots, firearms would use three. Or, if it were a matchlock weapon string and/or torches might be needed as well.
- Delayed Firing - One common complaint I hear about the inclusion of guns is that they would be "point and click". Actually, though, this is inconsistent with firearms prior to the invention of percussion caps. Early firearms had to ignite loosely packed powder through direct application of flame or a fuse of some sort. As a result, they actually had a delay between pulling the trigger and being fired. In game, this could mean that a gun would look similar to a Creeper, flashing briefly before shooting. This would lead to two changes for gameplay. First, players would have to learn to lead their shot to compensate, and secondly, it would telegraph the attack, making it harder to catch someone by surprise in PVP.
- Momentary Vulnerability - Many people fear that guns would lead to sniping. In actuality, a bow or crossbow was much better for this than early firearms were. There are a number of things which contribute to this. However, the overall effect is the same. After firing a gun, one was much more open to attack than someone firing a bolt or arrow would have been. This one is actually a group of a few related issues.
- Reload Time - Unlike a bow (though like a crossbow), a gun cannot simply be fired with a shorter pull. It must be fully reloaded. While this would likely still be shorter than the full pull on a bow, for gameplay purposes, it would definitely be more time than the minimum pull, or swinging a sword. If further combined with delayed fire, this could put a player on the defensive when using a gun, forcing them to pick targets carefully.
- Visual Indicator - Smokeless powder is a fairly recent invention. Comparatively, old-style firearms using simple black powder gave off a big white cloud every time that they went off. So, in Minecraft, a gun could reasonably be expected to produce explosion particles, like TNT or the Enderdragon. This would make it hard to hide when one uses a gun.
- Significant Recoil - Even modern firearms have a fair amount of kick to them. Early ones had to fire far less aerodynamic projectiles. Basically, assume that when one fires, their camera angle is skewed upward and to one side, forcing them to correct their aim. Not only would this briefly keep them from seeing what state the target is in, it would also make it that much harder to take multiple quick shots in succession.
- This also ties in with the smoke cloud, which could obscure vision as well.
- Audible Firing - Guns are loud. Those earmuffs on the firing range aren't there to keep you warm. It's an explosion, however contained it may be. So, when you use a gun, everyone around is going to know about it. No stealth there. You shoot, and people know someone's shooting, and will look for you. This could even be extended to mobs, by having some of them seek out or flee the source of noise, as appropriate.
- Cost to Create - I'm not going to say that cost is a huge balancing factor. Obviously, if something is basically overpowered to begin with, then all the cost in the world won't make up for the effects of someone actually getting it. However, as long as an item is basically fair to begin with, then a bit of extra cost will put off its acquisition to an appropriate point in gameplay. So, let's look at the two things that can go into costs.
- The Weapon - Obviously, to use a gun, you'll have to make a gun. Now, at its most basic, a firearm is just a metal tube and a way to hold it. That said, there's a lot of flexibility here. If the weapon has a bayonet, that's an extra iron. If you want a more "realistic" barrel, it might use a bucket, adding two. Levers are easy to make, but what if the trigger uses a stone button or tripwire hook? Either can be justified, and take a bit more resources to craft. If we deem firearms a machine and include redstone, that delays things too. Does the striking mechanism mean using a Flint and Steel? Does complex internal workings mean it needs gold? All of these things change how much work, and how much time, it takes to start using firearms.
- The Ammo - This is, actually, one of the biggest limiting factors for any potential firearm in the game. While arrows can be obtained easily from Skeletons, ammunition for guns would have to be crafted. Gunpowder is obviously going to be an element. It only comes from dangerous mobs, but one of them can be farmed, so let's look at the other components. If we use cartridges, then either paper or wool is needed. However, again, these can be farmed...though it is worth noting that wool is a bit harder to farm than paper, due to the need to either breed sheep and slaughter them (for low returns) or spend iron on shears. That leaves the load...the bullet itself. This is usually assumed would be iron, a plentiful material, and farmable. However, as bullets are typically made from soft, dense lead, I propose that soft, dense gold could be used. In the overworld, gold is less common, and farming it requires dealing with Zombie Pigmen in the Nether. Thus it is another thing which would make firearms more difficult to maintain.
- A final note, regarding multi-item loading - In addition to taking up more inventory space, a gun that used several items at a time might be more expensive to craft. For example, suppose you had to melt down individual gold nuggets to make bullets, plus have gunpowder, plus have string or torches for an ignition. Each shot becomes a greater investment. Though it might be worth it, if the gun is balanced correctly, the player would still be encouraged not to waste ammunition.
Now, I'm not saying a gun needs all of these to be balanced. Far from it. The point of this list (and it is by no means exhaustive) is simply to illustrate some of the possibilities available when designing a balanced gun, both to make it useful without overshadowing the bow, and to make it strong, with clear limits that keep it from being overpowering. A good gun would use some elements from each list, picked and chosen over, and possibly along with novel elements not even brought up here, to make something that is fun to play with, but doesn't detract from existing gameplay...instead enhancing it.http://www.minecraft...ranged-weapons/
Even if one were to take the approach of making guns a direct improvement over bows (which I personally think is not the correct approach) a lot of what I said still holds water. By the simple fact of what they are, firearms wouldn't behave in the same manner as a bow, nor be crafted the same way. So, where with swords it's a simple matter of "Replace Material X with Material Y, increase damage and durability", any kind of gun would require a few trade-offs to get an equivalent cost to power ratio.
Although, for another view of guns, check out this thread, and see my proposal for weapons that are all equivalent, but each do more damage than the others against specific enemies.
-with the last part in mind, you could make the arquebus do 9 hearts of damage and have straight range of 100 blocks (meaning if you fire parallel with the ground it will travel for 100 blocks before hitting ground), it would travel at 150 m/s (bow fires at 52m/s) and have a charging period of 2.8 seconds, but the projectile would leave a longer trail than the normal bow and it would be more visible trail.
-then as a weapon that is better overall than all, but not better than role specific weapons(meaning they aren't as good as sniping or close range specific weapons), you could have the muskets I added or something like that.
http://www.minecraft...ranged-weapons/
I'm against crafting to reload, as a rule, because while it does create a slowdown and vulnerability during reloading, it also has a simple workaround. Just craft a lot of loaded guns - at least enough to take out one or two targets - and you can chain-fire them in succession. Once the enemy is dead, you're safe to reload the lot of them, and repeat. While there are other factors that can be used to prevent that, I feel that having to load via right click, with the loaded state lost if you switch to another weapon, as a bow would be, is a far more elegant and simple solution.
I couldn't agree more. Guns do need some sort of limiting reloading between fire, but as I have said before, crafting to reload feels far too clunky and awkward compared to simply holding the right mouse button to reload.
When were guns invented?
How do guns function?
Are all firearms self-loading?
What are muzzleloaders?
Is modern machinery required to build a functional gun?
That should clear up some issues around here and get rid of the endless spamming of "all guns are sniper machine guns with suppressors that make them completely silent!"
What do you support? This is more of a discussion than a suggestion, so please be more specific.
http://www.minecraft...ranged-weapons/
http://www.minecraft...ranged-weapons/
Please be more specific about what the "feel" is, and how it would be ruined.
Also, before I hear someone say bows are inherently low tech and guns are inherently high tech, let me present this:
And the bows in Minecraft aren't the extremely modern bows that you're showing, so I don't really know how that's relevant.
It still proves my point that bows are not inherently simple and that gunpowder weaponry is not inherently complex.
Right, but to perform its basic function in an easy to use manner, a Bow doesn't need all those extra mechanics.
You put some string on a bendy stick, pull back and things in front of you die.
Whereas the ancient gun (The one you showed) was incredibly unwieldy and inaccurate.. A lot of hassle to go through just to get one shot off on a mob.
Which is why I support slightly more advanced things like pirate style Cannons, Grenades, and portable Grenade Launchers.