To be honest, this sounds like a lot of effort and resources when the end result is mostly just creating an alternate way to make the same stuff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Survival" is a film/literature/video game genre about survival and self-sufficiency in the wild.
"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase used to paraphrase natural selection.
This is a great idea. It will be difficult to ascend the technological ladder with this in place, presenting a real reason to not die. It would also promote cooperation, because a big town would be able to ascend the tech ladder faster than a rouge player. I also like the idea of alchemy in general. I do somewhat disagree with your metals chain, but that's not a big issue at all. I don't think that enchanting should be with an alchemy table, but possibly with another crafting table. Magic, if included, would have to be balanced. It would be difficult to get spells, and they would be very limited use. They would only really be useful if you could afford to pay high prices to get single use spells, or if you were a hired assassin. Enchanting would be the best form of magic if I was in charge, like enchanting a bow so it fires magic blasts instead of arrows. I would make it so that the bow is like a tool- the more you use it, the more damage it gets. This would be entirely because I hate making arrows. Anyway, great idea. Making far advanced things difficult to get will strengthen teams, and make the people who want to spend the whole game killing people work hard to do so.
I almost agree with you on the metals chain. I personally would put bronze below iron, but the chain is realistic to what real alchemists worked with.
As for a seperate magic table, I would agree IF magic is increased beyond enchanting. I think that enchanting would be possible enough to do through Alchemy, but any sort of spell crafting would not.
If Magic doesn't get farther than enchanting, it could be bundled it with Alchemy, but I don't really want people confusing Alchemy with Magic any more than they do now.
Quote from LightWarriorK »
From what Notch has said, it seems like he's thinking about enchanted items degrading faster, so your idea has a lot of merit. I'm not a fan of the idea of bows shooting magic, since that's a little too "pew-pew" for my liking, but if you could enchant arrows to freeze or enflame enemies they'd strike, that's more how I'm seeing it. But that doesn't help you with not having to make arrows, sorry.
I think what said was that using the enchantments on tools would damage them much like using them normally, so you might want to be sparing using it.
I only like the idea of a magic bow because iron is too hard to come by to waste it on arrows that you never get back after using. Magic arrows would be cool but the game wouldn't really know which arrows to use.
Quote from LightWarriorK »
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Notch HAS to read this.
If he hasn't seen it already, I plan to email him the link once discussion has died down and I've made any corrections. Thankfully as long as he's occupied with /infdev/ there's not much urgency.
I asked him if he had read these suggestions on the chat, and he said that he hadn't and would once infdev is done. I just want him to read these awesome ideas.
Quote from LightWarriorK »
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Ooh! I have a cool idea for this! Making fake gold. Sulfur + Mercury + Lead = Fake gold. It's as strong as gold, but wouldn't work for alchemical recipes. That way you can get gold armor without actually finding gold.
Quote from gilbbbr »
Fools gold= Pyrite
I like that idea.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Not fools gold. Pyrite is stronger than iron. I am referring to what alchemists in old England did; they would melt lead and stir in mercury with a want, then release sulfur into the mercury and lead mixture, turning it gold colored.
Pyrite would be a good metal in game though- Sulfur and Iron mixed to make what looks like gold, but is much more useful. Plus, I would get a laugh about how fools gold is better than real gold.
Fools gold would be great for conning opponents who steal your gold in multiplayer. They think they're burning real gold for points when they end up with iron slag that smells like rotten eggs. :laugh.gif:
It's a good illustration, though, of the kind of complexity that can be brought to the table. I don't know how many crafting recipies Notch wants to add, but from the talk this weekend it seems like he has no difficulty making it as complex as we'd want to see it.
Yeah, fake gold would be a good way to stop people from stealing your real gold if you burned it to sacrifice it. Pyrite would have to look different if used, but fake gold should look almost identical to real gold.
Complex recipes would be nice IMO, but nothing too hard to remember. As long as it makes sense and is intuitive, it is a good basic recipe. Secret recipes would be fun trying to figure out, though.
Thanks for the comments, everyone! 87% "Yes!" Wow, I'd consider that a good endorsement, thanks! Hopefully it'll get the idea some consideration.
Quote from Iguana »
The diagrams make me happy, and it's a lot easier to understand like that. ;P
Thanks, yeah, it's confusing enough of a topic, I knew I needed some visuals. I'm glad they help.
Quote from Lmaoboat »
To be honest, this sounds like a lot of effort and resources when the end result is mostly just creating an alternate way to make the same stuff.
Once again, it's a balancing thing. The effort and resouces will be balanced by the benefit recieved in the end. Notch hasn't done the balancing yet. And if this happens, it wouldn't be an "alternate"; you wouldn't be able to make diamond weapons and armor any other way. Yes, it's an alternative for gunpowder as opposed to fighting creepers, but I'd actually welcome more than one way to get hard-to-find items, as long as those ways aren't duplicates.
Quote from Blackwind »
Just have it as it is, plus Runescape has the same thing happening, so why do you want to have relations between the two.
Quote from Kelbin »
There are skeletons, giant spiders and zombies in World of Warcraft... *GASP* We have to remove them right away!
Correct. Just because something is similar to another game doesn't make it inappropriate. Someone mentioned in my Crafting Tech Tree thread that my list of metals were dangerously close to Runescape.
I fired back that they my list of metals were dangerously close to metals. :biggrin.gif:
Metals, refining, alloys....they're real life applications, not unique to any one videogame. We're mimicking natural processes, not someone else's game idea. I've never even played Runescape, and have no idea how it works or what's in it.
Quote from Duane »
Solution: Two slots on the forge?
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. We don't even have a Forge yet, unless you mean the Furnace.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
If Magic doesn't get farther than enchanting, it could be bundled it with Alchemy, but I don't really want people confusing Alchemy with Magic any more than they do now.
The problem is the nebulous definition of magic. You can pretty much use it to define anything unnatural. People used to think gunpowder was magic.
My point is that it doesn't matter what you call it or what it actually is. It's all perception. It doesn't really matter if people confuse Alchemy with Magic, because to those who don't understand it, it is. That was the whole idea behind my "Perception of Alchemy" section.
Now, I agree there are different levels of what could be considered "Magic." And yeah, those shouldn't be at the same station, IF they're both going to happen. I still hope Notch doesn't to both. Magic beyond enchanting really defeats the purpose of Alchemy: if you can fling fireballs and lightning bolts around, making physicaly items would feel kinda "blah." At least to me.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
I think what said was that using the enchantments on tools would damage them much like using them normally, so you might want to be sparing using it.
I only like the idea of a magic bow because iron is too hard to come by to waste it on arrows that you never get back after using. Magic arrows would be cool but the game wouldn't really know which arrows to use.
They'd have to separate themselves in the inventory, and maybe have to equip the arrows instead of the bow. Minor changes to how it works now.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
I asked him if he had read these suggestions on the chat, and he said that he hadn't and would once infdev is done. I just want him to read these awesome ideas.
Thanks. Yeah, as long as he's doing infdev I'm sure posts won't get a lot of notice. I'll make sure to email him the link once he's done with that.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Yeah, fake gold would be a good way to stop people from stealing your real gold if you burned it to sacrifice it. Pyrite would have to look different if used, but fake gold should look almost identical to real gold.
Complex recipes would be nice IMO, but nothing too hard to remember. As long as it makes sense and is intuitive, it is a good basic recipe. Secret recipes would be fun trying to figure out, though.
No, nothing too complex. That's what I like about the 7-slot circle combined with specific uses for the catalyst primes. You'll always use the same primes in three slots for each process. You'll always fill the other three slots with the supplementary materials. You'll always place the base object in the center.
The problem with secret recipies is that this is such a smart community. The moment somebody finds a recipie it'll get posted in the wiki, which would end up serving as an Alchemy "cookbook." Much like it does for crafting.
But however simple or complex, I'm all in favor of multitudes of recipies. Hundreds. But yes, only if they make sense.
I've never even played Minecraft, and have no idea how it works or what's in it.
I assume you mean Runescape, not Minecraft.
About magic, I am 100% against fireballs and lightning. I think that magic should work like this: You can give an item one enchantment at a costly rate: increased speed, increased damage, longer stun, more pushback, or decreased damage gained. Most of the enchantments are weapons only. You would place the ingredients for the magic on a 3x3 grid, place the item to be enchanted in it's own slot, and take out the enchanted item. You can also use magic to upgrade the material in a tool, so you can make some higher level tools with only a magic station. If you put paper in the slot to be enchanted, you can give it a spell. Spells could temporarily make you faster, do slightly more damage, jump higher, breathe longer underwater, see better int eh dark, etc. They would only have a few uses, and wouldn't be offensive, so no one gets fireballs or lightning.
As long as I am talking about Magic, why not have a summoning circle block that would spawn a specific type of monster randomly? I am not talking about you summoning, but a block you can place in your opponent's base to spawn mobs.
The "two slots on the forge" comment meant that there would be multiple outputs for something so that you could have more than one item use the same recipe.
As for enchanted arrows, I guess a quiver slot in the items screen would work, especially if Notch also added a left hand slot to hold secondary items in.
Secret recipes would still be fun trying to figure out, and even if they aren't secret, if Notch just added a lot at once, it would be fun trying to figure them out for yourself.
I've never even played Minecraft, and have no idea how it works or what's in it.
I assume you mean Runescape, not Minecraft.
Crap, yeah, thanks.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
About magic, I am 100% against fireballs and lightning. I think that magic should work like this: You can give an item one enchantment at a costly rate: increased speed, increased damage, longer stun, more pushback, or decreased damage gained. Most of the enchantments are weapons only. You would place the ingredients for the magic on a 3x3 grid, place the item to be enchanted in it's own slot, and take out the enchanted item. You can also use magic to upgrade the material in a tool, so you can make some higher level tools with only a magic station. If you put paper in the slot to be enchanted, you can give it a spell. Spells could temporarily make you faster, do slightly more damage, jump higher, breathe longer underwater, see better int eh dark, etc. They would only have a few uses, and wouldn't be offensive, so no one gets fireballs or lightning.
As long as I am talking about Magic, why not have a summoning circle block that would spawn a specific type of monster randomly? I am not talking about you summoning, but a block you can place in your opponent's base to spawn mobs.
The "two slots on the forge" comment meant that there would be multiple outputs for something so that you could have more than one item use the same recipe.
As for enchanted arrows, I guess a quiver slot in the items screen would work, especially if Notch also added a left hand slot to hold secondary items in.
Secret recipes would still be fun trying to figure out, and even if they aren't secret, if Notch just added a lot at once, it would be fun trying to figure them out for yourself.
Yeah, I can understand all that, and I see your point. I'm not really sure if I agree with it all, since I'm afraid that too much enchanting would render the physical crafted items less worthy. I just think that if someone goes through all the trials to get a diamond sword, it shouldn't be negated simply because someone made a simple enchantment or spell. But that's all game balancing. It's hard for me to picture enchanting until there's a little more guidance from Notch as to what his thoughts are on it.
Yeah, I can understand all that, and I see your point. I'm not really sure if I agree with it all, since I'm afraid that too much enchanting would render the physical crafted items less worthy. I just think that if someone goes through all the trials to get a diamond sword, it shouldn't be negated simply because someone made a simple enchantment or spell. But that's all game balancing. It's hard for me to picture enchanting until there's a little more guidance from Notch as to what his thoughts are on it.
If there was going to be a magic station, it would have to be almost as hard to make as an alchemy station, because of how good it would be. With enchantments, they would reduce the durability of the item with the exception of the durability enchantment, which would reduce the speed of it slightly. An item would only be able to have one enchantment, and enchantments would cost diamond, gold, gems if added, and other valuable things to make.
If there was going to be a magic station, it would have to be almost as hard to make as an alchemy station, because of how good it would be. With enchantments, they would reduce the durability of the item with the exception of the durability enchantment, which would reduce the speed of it slightly. An item would only be able to have one enchantment, and enchantments would cost diamond, gold, gems if added, and other valuable things to make.
Makes sense. I certainly can't argue there. Mages should be just as difficult to accomplish as Alchemists. A lot of people in favor of magic would balk at making it so advanced, but that's exactly how it should be.
It's a good idea, and one certainly worthy of Alchemy if you look to the extremes of what they wanted to accomplish. The Elixir of Life could have done that. But being scientific, something like using Alchemy would be so extremely limited or so extremely powerful....I don't know if it'd be worth it. Good idea, though!
Let's see....it's certainly an enchantment, so you'd need 3 Sulfur for the catalyst. You'd also need a binder: an object to which the enchantment would be bound that would then serve as a core for the Golem. I'd say for artificial life, nothing less than a diamond block would suffice. As for the materials, maybe some other compounds that embue life, perhaps cooked up at an Apothecary station. Which wouldn't be cheap themselves. Certainly doable.
How about that you need to use Alchemy to make the body, and magic to bring it to life? Then you need two high level crafting tables and a large amount of gold and diamond to make a golem.
I say that if there would be natural golems, they should drop golem heads that need to be reactivated with magic to be used, and be necessary to build a golem. That way something as powerful as a golem needs you to first kill a golem, have alchemy, have magic, and have enough gold / diamond.
I must say, the idea is presented so well it is hard to raise argument against it.
Not that I have any argument against it. I like the idea where magic is really just a confusion of chemistry and technology rather than anything emanating from an æther of any variety.
It would also bring in a nice mechanic for moderating the time it would take for players to begin crafting anything more complex than the standard set of tools, while also serving as a reasonable medium for branching further in the "craft-tree"
All in all a nice idea.
Work bench for simple devices, like bows.
Alchemy laboratory for more menacing contraptions. :tongue.gif:
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Professional Underwater Lava-miner.
Also a massive mushroom mongler.
A small technical problem, to make the diamond sword you are using more diamonds nessicary to make one, therefore it is ineffecient. I know it is just an example, but still showing the effectiveness that alchemy is should have some importance.
Secondly to mine the resources nessicary for your alchemy are poisonous such as lead, sulfur, and mercury. They will probably have to be handled by the minecrafter otherwise they will impede serious health problems that will kill them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Starcraft 2 is the Brawl to Brood War's Melee
Quote from Doug Hug »
Let's kick ass and eat granola and lucky for you I brought lots of granola
"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase used to paraphrase natural selection.
Just have it as it is, plus Runescape has the same thing happening, so why do you want to have relations between the two.
http://www.minerwars.com/?aid=640
I think what said was that using the enchantments on tools would damage them much like using them normally, so you might want to be sparing using it.
I only like the idea of a magic bow because iron is too hard to come by to waste it on arrows that you never get back after using. Magic arrows would be cool but the game wouldn't really know which arrows to use.
I asked him if he had read these suggestions on the chat, and he said that he hadn't and would once infdev is done. I just want him to read these awesome ideas.
Yeah, fake gold would be a good way to stop people from stealing your real gold if you burned it to sacrifice it. Pyrite would have to look different if used, but fake gold should look almost identical to real gold.
Complex recipes would be nice IMO, but nothing too hard to remember. As long as it makes sense and is intuitive, it is a good basic recipe. Secret recipes would be fun trying to figure out, though.
Don't let them dies, please D'=
They wouldn't let you die if you were in need of hatching!
There are skeletons, giant spiders and zombies in World of Warcraft... *GASP* We have to remove them right away!
:roll:
Thanks, yeah, it's confusing enough of a topic, I knew I needed some visuals. I'm glad they help.
Once again, it's a balancing thing. The effort and resouces will be balanced by the benefit recieved in the end. Notch hasn't done the balancing yet. And if this happens, it wouldn't be an "alternate"; you wouldn't be able to make diamond weapons and armor any other way. Yes, it's an alternative for gunpowder as opposed to fighting creepers, but I'd actually welcome more than one way to get hard-to-find items, as long as those ways aren't duplicates.
Correct. Just because something is similar to another game doesn't make it inappropriate. Someone mentioned in my Crafting Tech Tree thread that my list of metals were dangerously close to Runescape.
I fired back that they my list of metals were dangerously close to metals. :biggrin.gif:
Metals, refining, alloys....they're real life applications, not unique to any one videogame. We're mimicking natural processes, not someone else's game idea. I've never even played Runescape, and have no idea how it works or what's in it.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. We don't even have a Forge yet, unless you mean the Furnace.
The problem is the nebulous definition of magic. You can pretty much use it to define anything unnatural. People used to think gunpowder was magic.
My point is that it doesn't matter what you call it or what it actually is. It's all perception. It doesn't really matter if people confuse Alchemy with Magic, because to those who don't understand it, it is. That was the whole idea behind my "Perception of Alchemy" section.
Now, I agree there are different levels of what could be considered "Magic." And yeah, those shouldn't be at the same station, IF they're both going to happen. I still hope Notch doesn't to both. Magic beyond enchanting really defeats the purpose of Alchemy: if you can fling fireballs and lightning bolts around, making physicaly items would feel kinda "blah." At least to me.
They'd have to separate themselves in the inventory, and maybe have to equip the arrows instead of the bow. Minor changes to how it works now.
Thanks. Yeah, as long as he's doing infdev I'm sure posts won't get a lot of notice. I'll make sure to email him the link once he's done with that.
No, nothing too complex. That's what I like about the 7-slot circle combined with specific uses for the catalyst primes. You'll always use the same primes in three slots for each process. You'll always fill the other three slots with the supplementary materials. You'll always place the base object in the center.
The problem with secret recipies is that this is such a smart community. The moment somebody finds a recipie it'll get posted in the wiki, which would end up serving as an Alchemy "cookbook." Much like it does for crafting.
But however simple or complex, I'm all in favor of multitudes of recipies. Hundreds. But yes, only if they make sense.
Hardly. :roll: But thanks. :biggrin.gif:
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree
I assume you mean Runescape, not Minecraft.
About magic, I am 100% against fireballs and lightning. I think that magic should work like this: You can give an item one enchantment at a costly rate: increased speed, increased damage, longer stun, more pushback, or decreased damage gained. Most of the enchantments are weapons only. You would place the ingredients for the magic on a 3x3 grid, place the item to be enchanted in it's own slot, and take out the enchanted item. You can also use magic to upgrade the material in a tool, so you can make some higher level tools with only a magic station. If you put paper in the slot to be enchanted, you can give it a spell. Spells could temporarily make you faster, do slightly more damage, jump higher, breathe longer underwater, see better int eh dark, etc. They would only have a few uses, and wouldn't be offensive, so no one gets fireballs or lightning.
As long as I am talking about Magic, why not have a summoning circle block that would spawn a specific type of monster randomly? I am not talking about you summoning, but a block you can place in your opponent's base to spawn mobs.
The "two slots on the forge" comment meant that there would be multiple outputs for something so that you could have more than one item use the same recipe.
As for enchanted arrows, I guess a quiver slot in the items screen would work, especially if Notch also added a left hand slot to hold secondary items in.
Secret recipes would still be fun trying to figure out, and even if they aren't secret, if Notch just added a lot at once, it would be fun trying to figure them out for yourself.
Crap, yeah, thanks.
Yeah, I can understand all that, and I see your point. I'm not really sure if I agree with it all, since I'm afraid that too much enchanting would render the physical crafted items less worthy. I just think that if someone goes through all the trials to get a diamond sword, it shouldn't be negated simply because someone made a simple enchantment or spell. But that's all game balancing. It's hard for me to picture enchanting until there's a little more guidance from Notch as to what his thoughts are on it.
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree
If there was going to be a magic station, it would have to be almost as hard to make as an alchemy station, because of how good it would be. With enchantments, they would reduce the durability of the item with the exception of the durability enchantment, which would reduce the speed of it slightly. An item would only be able to have one enchantment, and enchantments would cost diamond, gold, gems if added, and other valuable things to make.
Consider using alchemy to bring life to inanimate objects.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
Makes sense. I certainly can't argue there. Mages should be just as difficult to accomplish as Alchemists. A lot of people in favor of magic would balk at making it so advanced, but that's exactly how it should be.
It's a good idea, and one certainly worthy of Alchemy if you look to the extremes of what they wanted to accomplish. The Elixir of Life could have done that. But being scientific, something like using Alchemy would be so extremely limited or so extremely powerful....I don't know if it'd be worth it. Good idea, though!
Let's see....it's certainly an enchantment, so you'd need 3 Sulfur for the catalyst. You'd also need a binder: an object to which the enchantment would be bound that would then serve as a core for the Golem. I'd say for artificial life, nothing less than a diamond block would suffice. As for the materials, maybe some other compounds that embue life, perhaps cooked up at an Apothecary station. Which wouldn't be cheap themselves. Certainly doable.
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree
I say that if there would be natural golems, they should drop golem heads that need to be reactivated with magic to be used, and be necessary to build a golem. That way something as powerful as a golem needs you to first kill a golem, have alchemy, have magic, and have enough gold / diamond.
And to add my two cents to this idea, would it be feasable to have different sized circles that would take larger recipies?
Possibly, but I think there will probably be enough combinations as it is. A two layered circle could work well, if we needed more complex recipes.
^^My blog^^
Not that I have any argument against it. I like the idea where magic is really just a confusion of chemistry and technology rather than anything emanating from an æther of any variety.
It would also bring in a nice mechanic for moderating the time it would take for players to begin crafting anything more complex than the standard set of tools, while also serving as a reasonable medium for branching further in the "craft-tree"
All in all a nice idea.
Work bench for simple devices, like bows.
Alchemy laboratory for more menacing contraptions. :tongue.gif:
Also a massive mushroom mongler.
Secondly to mine the resources nessicary for your alchemy are poisonous such as lead, sulfur, and mercury. They will probably have to be handled by the minecrafter otherwise they will impede serious health problems that will kill them.