LightWarriorK's Big Book of Alchemy ....or, how to do Alchemy well in Minecraft
[Note]
Why it’s being suggested
- I mention alchemy whenever it seems appropriate around here, typically whenever the subject of crafting comes up. I consider it to be an ideal method of crafting highly advanced, complex, impossible, and arcane items.
- I wrote about it briefly in my Crafting Tech Tree thread, really only to emphasize the need for an Alchemy station as part of a Tech Tree. A number of people have expressed interest in exactly how I see it being used in Minecraft, so I’m writing it all up.
- I do not agree with having “traditional RPG magic” in Minecraft, although I would agree that given the “fantasy medieval” theme of the game that some form of magic may be appropriate. I consider alchemy to be a practical compromise: one that allows for enchanting and impossible items while not letting players hurl fireballs everywhere.
What it is
- What I am suggesting is a crafting-based approach to alchemy, either to make final products or intermediate materials for further crafting. Everything made using alchemy is a physical object.
- Alchemy is done at its own crafting station, just like Smelting and the Workbench. Notch has mentioned that we may be seeing additional crafting stations, as they make sense, and it makes sense to me to break something like Alchemy out from standard crafting.
- It’s advanced crafting. Alchemy, in its hey-day, was the realm of educated and curious “scientists,” and the processes where neither easy nor cheap. The station (equipment) should be costly to build and ideally not constructible from the start of the game (maybe require some gold blocks), and the materials as well should vary. While some alchemical processes may be simple and cheap, others should be extremely expensive and possible only for advanced players who have earned the right.
- Alchemy is by its nature arcane and mystical. While the real-world practical alchemy was nothing magical, the fanciful nature of Minecraft lends well to that perception. My suggestion stresses the arcane.
What it is NOT
- Apothecary (potion-making) –The Elder Scrolls games have used alchemy, although they dilute it down to potion making. I believe that potions and poisons would be better served at their own practical station, Apothecary, so that we’re not making “magical potions” that would enchant the player. While I can make peace with enchanted items, I do not believe that should extend to the player. Keep potion making separate, and leave Alchemy to its namesake which is “the art of transmuting metals.”
- Pew-pew magic missile – Alchemy should not be “spell crafting.” There is a big difference between an alchemist and a wizard, although in the real-world maybe not so much but that would be more practical not more magical. Alchemy is based on physical materials, combining them, altering them, and imbibing them, NOT filling them with energy from nowhere.
- Overpowered - Think about the anime Fullmetal Alchemist: Everything made by alchemy is practical, although it may be impossible, and had its roots in science. Equivalent Exchange: you don’t get something from nothing, and what you get is equal to the effort (time and materials) you put into it. Magic in videogames has long been void of equivalency: A simple 50 coin potion refills your magic points and lets freeze/fry/electrocute/crush/etc. your enemy to death? Enchantments need to be costly, limited, and worth only the life of the weapon, and should not be overpowered. Adding flint and steel to a sword should NOT allow it to throw fireballs. Nothing you can create lets you deserve that sort of unbalanced power.
Alchemy Perception
- Alchemy, though arcane, mystical, and usually very obtuse, was in fact based on early scientific principles. However, at that point in history, the common man was largely uneducated and would have been unable to comprehend many of the alchemical processes. As Arthur C Clark states,
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
- My suggestion is not to apply Alchemy as it was, but rather alchemy as it was perceived to be: magical….but still practical.
- With the perception of Alchemy being magical, the methods and uses expand greatly. I don’t think we should worry about the “traditional” uses of Alchemy, though that doesn’t discount them being included.
Alchemy in Minecraft
- Expanded materials
- First things first, more materials will need to be brought into the game, in particular more basic elements in the form of metals and primes.
- From my list in the Crafting Tech Tree thread:
Lesser Metals
Lead
Tin
Copper
Regular Metals
Bronze (not actually mined, but refined from Copper)
Iron
Steel (not actually mined, but refined from Iron)
Greater Metals
Silver
Gold
Mithril
Adamantium (not actually mined, but refined from Mithril)
Gems
Topaz
Sapphire
Ruby
Emerald
Diamond
Primes (for Alchemy, Apothecary, Cooking, etc.)
Sulfur
Mercury
Salt
Coal
Water
Lava/Magma
Oil
- Station
- My thoughts are that Alchemy would work best as its own station. Afterall, due to the nature of Alchemy it wouldn’t be appropriate to do it on a Workbench. And given the advanced nature of Alchemy and the products you get from it, it should be a later-game station, and NOT something you can make at the beginning of play.
- My proposal for an Alchemy station in the Crafting Tech Tree thread was based on it being craftable from a more advanced workstation called the Advanced Forge and is done with a 5x5 grid. That may or (more likely) not happen.
- In order to make the station advanced and unbuildable from the start, my suggestion was to build it out of a base of logs and steel, with a cap of the most pure alchemical substance, gold. This is possible even with a 3x3 grid, like so:
[gold] [gold] [gold]
[iron] [iron] [iron]
- The resulting station could look something like this (I'm not an artist):
- The Alchemy station, like the Furnace, should have a unique crafting grid. My thoughts are for something like a Fullmetal Alchemist Transmutation Circle.
- The grid would be 6 slots surrounding a 7th in the center. The object to be Transmuted, Calcified, Projected, or Enchanted would be placed in the center, and additional materials plus catalysts would be placed around it. Here’s a simple mockup of how the crafting screen could look:
- Some Uses (not exclusive or exhaustive) Transmutation
- The creation of gem and obsidian weapons and armor. Gems and obsidian are NOT possible to craft in the real world, and right now Diamond represents the best material in the game. It makes sense that it should be difficult to craft. Place gold weapons and armor (since gold is the most pure alchemical substance) into the center slot, and whatever gems or obsidian you want transmuted to it around it, plus the catalyst.
- The catalysts for Transmutation should be all three primes. One of each. Here’s a mockup of how to make a diamond sword:
Calcification
- The process of creating difficult or dangerous substances. A precursor to chemistry.
- Gunpowder without having to kill Creepers
- Base oil refining into a more explosive liquid
- The arcane creation of materials that can be then processed into advanced potions or poisons through further crafting
- The catalysts for Calcification should naturally be Salt (the base matter). Three of them. Here’s a mockup of how to make Gunpowder out of Sulfur with Coal:
Projection
- Tired of running out of raw metals? Use Projection to create a higher-order metal. Lead<Tin<Iron<Copper<Silver<Gold.
- Requires a Mercury (the fluid connection between the High and the Low) as a catalyst, and a large amount of raw materials for a little output ( a 4:1 ratio). Here’s a mockup of a Projection from Iron to Copper:
Enchantments
- I’m not sure as to what extent Notch wants to add Enchanting, so I haven’t thought that much on what sort of Enchantments could be applied, especially to weapons and armor.
- Enchanting would be best used for creating Water and Lava Source Blocks by Enchanting a Gold block.
- Creating an artificial light block that would shine like fire but not burn anything down or ever go out.
- Enchanted building materials (that would have a very slightly different texture) that are extremely difficult to break or blow up, even with the best tools.
- The item being Enchanted would be placed in the center, with the enchanting items (gems?) placed on the outside with the catalysts
- Sulfur (the omnipresent spirit of life) would be the catalyst here. I didn’t make a mockup of Enchanting, since I’m not sure how to do it best.
- Possibilities
- Yes, I know this makes crafting more complex. I’m sure you’d all get used to it.
- Yes, I’m aware that this makes getting Diamond Swords much more difficult, since now you’d need a Gold Sword, PLUS an Alchemy station, PLUS Diamonds, PLUS one of each catalyst. My response is two-fold: 1) Who the heck are you to deserve the best sword in the game? Deal with it and earn the right. And 2) the game has yet to be balanced. Difficulty reaps rewards. If you do manage to get the best sword in the game through such difficult means, then you deserve to get one-hit kills and a sword that pretty much never breaks.
Conclusion
- That’s about as best I can put it without getting too obtuse. I’m willing to discuss and debate any point here, and those that fit I’ll gladly add.
I love this! I too want Minecraft to avoid the tired and overused fireball and frostbolt type fare. Alchemy is far subtler (which I consider a good thing) and leaves room for much intricacy. This suggestion really seems to fit in perfectly with the spirit of Minecraft.
I think that being an alchemist should be a difficult path to pursue. The materials needed for powerful recipes (enchantments, advanced transmutation) should be rare enough and/or dangerous enough to acquire that many players only ever dabble with the simplest of recipes (creating gunpowder and such). I would further suggest that in keeping with the idea of alchemy being an arcane art requiring esoteric knowledge, that an alchemy station be bound to and usable only by its creator.
I wouldn't worry about it being too complex. Notch once said on IRC that while he wants to keep the basic systems of the game simple and intuitive, he was all for having more complex advanced mechanics.
I agree with Meren on paragraph one and two, but I'll just say, alchemy is Greatest Crafting!
Least crafting is with hand, lesser is work bench, and furnace, and greater is forge, and the above, and around.
You shouldn't expect to be able to ejaculate diamond swords within one hour's time, you have to go through the bases, and build the alchemist's lab in a 5x5!
It always warms my frostbitten heart to see someone with a coherent suggestion that clearly took them time. This is by far the best version of alchemy (and anything somewhat magical) I've seen thus far. Plus one.
Can we be expecting some odd materials and horribly horribly terrifying results when throwing any goddamn thing we can think of into the circle randomly? I noticed you referenced Full Metal Alchemist heavily for this, and that easily tempted me into thoughts of creating homunculus-esque things. Bring that pig you loved back to life? Creeper.
Thanks for the replies, everyone! :biggrin.gif: I'm glad most of you like it so far. I wish whomever voted no had stated his reasoning here so I could know why, but I'm guessing he either wants Minecraft to be an unchallenging kiddie game, or he's in favor of "pew-pew" magic.
Quote from gilbbbr »
I like the idea of the primes, then the materials. The transmutation circle is also a very realistic crafting idea.I'm behind this all the way. I must say, 10x better than my alchemy thread. I will post more, I need to get something done.
-Is that painting depicting the moment when fosforus was discovered? From urine, tee hee.
Certainly not 10x. Your thread was great! I've just been thinking about this for a LONG time, since even before I made the Tech Tree thread. Makes for a lot to say. I'm not sure what they're making in the globe in the painting....probably the "Elixir of Life" or something.
Quote from TheYeIIowDucK »
Bronze is refined from Copper and Tin, and Steel is refined from Iron, Coal, and some salts (maybe that strange powder drops from creepers?)
Yeah, I was only listing the primary material. Refined metals like Bronze and Steel, if ever implemented, may be kept simple to just the basic metal or expanded to all the sub materials, but that'd be up to Notch.
Quote from gilbbbr »
The only slight thing that may be a problem,
I have a feeling that, if he were to add alchemy, notch would include potions into it. But that's just what I think, I may be proved wrong. He may want to make potions a bit easier to craft.
Quote from Yourromance »
Request: I know i made a apothecary thread once, but i was fastly forgotten. So why not make a apothecary suggestion :biggrin.gif: :biggrin.gif: :biggrin.gif: :biggrin.gif: :biggrin.gif:
I would really love that.
Quote from Yourromance »
@ramen this is more like apothecary.
If you didnt read the apocraft suggestion, try it.
This goes in the direction you just said.
I DO have some ideas for an Apothecary station; something simple but unique. I think it could be different enough to have as its own station. I've got to think about it more, though. I did NOT see your apocraft thread, Yourromance, sorry about that. I'll check it out.
The problem with Apothecary is that it'd require a number of "status effects" to be added to the game to really be useful, and I don't know how practical that'd be. Assuming Notch would go in that direction, though, there are a number of potions, poisons, antidotes, and effectuaries I can think of that would be nice to have.
Quote from Meren »
I think that being an alchemist should be a difficult path to pursue. The materials needed for powerful recipes (enchantments, advanced transmutation) should be rare enough and/or dangerous enough to acquire that many players only ever dabble with the simplest of recipes (creating gunpowder and such). I would further suggest that in keeping with the idea of alchemy being an arcane art requiring esoteric knowledge, that an alchemy station be bound to and usable only by its creator.
I wouldn't worry about it being too complex. Notch once said on IRC that while he wants to keep the basic systems of the game simple and intuitive, he was all for having more complex advanced mechanics.
I completely agree! And the idea of binding the station to the creator is absolutely essential to that point. When I update the OP, I'll be sure to mention that. Thanks!
I'm not worried about Notch thinking it's too complex. From his "mission statement" I figured he doesn't have a problem with anything like that. I really only mentioned that at the end to try and head off some of the whiners who have that strange "entitlement mentality" who think that it's perfectly fine for them to be running around with the best weapons and armor in the game without having to earn them.
The best example I can think of is Spore. Will Wright's original plan for Spore was sublime in its complexity and would have been one of the most amazing works he's ever done. But along comes EA and waters it down, removing the science in favor of a "matching game" and generic part levels. It removed the functional implications of the near-infinite creativity in favor of aesthetics glossing over a weak and "accessible" gameplay system that was ultimately BORING. I was anticipating Spore more than most people, and was a very active moderator on a Spore fan site, but alas: within two weeks I was completely bored with Spore. And I had such high hopes for it. :cry:
Keeping gameplay dumb and simple to placate those "gamers" who want to have the best of everything two minutes into play because "they're paying for the game" is IMHO the downfall of the videogame industry. I get furious whenever I see a post (on any forum) that says something like,
Look, I paid for this game so the developer owes me an enjoyable experience. I want X weapon and I want it before everyone else has it, or I'm not being entertained. I will never buy your games again because you make it too hard for me to be better than everyone else and it's not fair. I AM good, I shouldn't have to prove it by doing all this work in-game to get to the good stuff that justifies it. It's too hard!
Of course, the biggest logical falicy there is that the player doesn't pay for their ideal game; they pay for whatever game the developer chooses to make. It's the gamer's choice and risk as to whether to buy it or not.
Personally, I would say "see-ya" and be glad to see those players leave. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want their money anyways. They wouldn't deserve the product of my labors. It's publishers like EA and Activision that are so paranoid about sales that they cater to these losers. Listening to them is fine, and I'm glad Notch does it, but when a game is tailored to "instant gratification," it's ruined every time.
[/rant]
In any case, yes, I agree. 8-)
Quote from Foe »
I agree with Meren on paragraph one and two, but I'll just say, alchemy is Greatest Crafting!
Least crafting is with hand, lesser is work bench, and furnace, and greater is forge, and the above, and around.
You shouldn't expect to be able to ejaculate diamond swords within one hour's time, you have to go through the bases, and build the alchemist's lab in a 5x5!
That's my hope too! It whole purpose of a "Tech Tree," which I hope Alchemy can be a big part of.
Quote from Ramen »
Can we be expecting some odd materials and horribly horribly terrifying results when throwing any goddamn thing we can think of into the circle randomly? I noticed you referenced Full Metal Alchemist heavily for this, and that easily tempted me into thoughts of creating homunculus-esque things. Bring that pig you loved back to life? Creeper.
I don't see why not. It'd all depend on the formulas available. Notch could put hundreds of formulas into the game, some successful and some disasterous, and I'd be all the happier for it.
You are aware that what you're suggesting is essentially magic, right? I could rewrite your OP and swap around some terms and it would be magic. Your perception of "alchemy" is based off some anime, which I find a bit odd as minecraft is certainly not an anime game.
Goes hand in hand with my other post though, more options don't hurt and I don't think this would damage the feel of the game. I just take issue with what you're referring to as "alchemy".
Some ideas are taken from an anima (A very good one by the way) but it fits in well with the game. It doesn't mean that the game must include cartoon people with large eyes and be translated to Japanese. And yes this is a sort of magic, but when people say magic at the moment, there thinking more on the lines of (As LightWarriorK puts it) pew pew missile magic. Alchemy is more of a crafting magic, that is a very appealing compromise to the RP magic we see in nearly all games, that allows some fantasy in without making the game a clique. Call it what you like, but that isn't exactly the point.
But may I ask, what is alchemy then?
I have had such fun!
And to add on, this is the science of the arcane, which is like the astronomy of astrology.
And besides, this dude is trading in copious crafting, and labor to make things better.
Besides, this could be the way you repair things, and notch doesn't repairing, so the next best thing is make it hard.
^ I agree with everything gilbbbr and Foe are saying. :smile.gif:
Quote from Waffles »
You are aware that what you're suggesting is essentially magic, right? I could rewrite your OP and swap around some terms and it would be magic. Your perception of "alchemy" is based off some anime, which I find a bit odd as minecraft is certainly not an anime game.
Goes hand in hand with my other post though, more options don't hurt and I don't think this would damage the feel of the game. I just take issue with what you're referring to as "alchemy".
I've never even found diamond, for ****'s sakes.
You could turn it around and say that the anime was based off of alchemy, which it was. Really the only concept I think is pulled from Fullmetal Alchemist is the concept of Transmutation and the circle, but those aren't exclusive to the anime.
If anything, I pulled from the Codex of Alchemical Engineering the most, which as a game (and one made by the same guy who made Infiniminer, Minecraft's predecessor, I might add) makes it a pretty good fit. But again, none of those concepts are exclusive to it. The alchemical proceedures, the materials, the primes, etc., those are ALL well documented in the online literature I linked to.
Really, the only concept here that is completely foreign to alchemy is Enchanting. I added it for two reasons:
1) Notch already said it's probably going to happen.
2) It fits well with alchemy, especially in the Medieval perception of it.
As for diamond, it's supposed to be near impossible to find. I'm sure the quantities and locations will be balanced out in the beta, especially if new mineable materials are added. Hang in there!
Quote from Foe »
Besides, this could be the way you repair things, and notch doesn't repairing, so the next best thing is make it hard.
Yes, repairing could be done this way, but I'd say only for those items only createable through Transmutation, like a Diamond Sword. If you put a nearly-busted Diamond Sword in the place of the Gold Sword, you could fully repair it. Repairing is cheaper than making a new one, therefore, since you don't need the Gold Sword, just the primes and additional Diamonds. Perhaps you could also do it piecemeal, where each materials slot repairs 1/3 of the item. So if your Sword was only 1/2 damaged, you'd only need two Diamonds to fully repair it.
But I would keep regular repairing at a "Forge" or "Anvil" or whatever it is that Notch mentioned. I think it was "Anvil": a station specifically for crafting weapons and armor.
But it doesn't make sense that you are using 3 diamonds to make 1 diamond sword, when you only need 2 to craft it.
Alchemy should also include a form of Recycling and Synthesis. Synthesis uses already made things (Like Armors, Weapons, blocks, etc.) and uses them to make new things.
Recycling only works on things like Torches or Weapons. You use Alchemy to get the materials back with a certain success rate.
a Wood Sword would have a much higher success rate than a Diamond Sword
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Quote from Kilgallon »
Quote from MomizerRox »
Quote from ZarroTsu »
Creepa stole ma bike. [SSSS]
Sooo... when's the next seecret Friday update topic going up? =[
I always thought transmutation circles were really stupid in that show. No matter how much you try and be sci-fi, transforming stuff by drawing a circle on the ground is magic on a fire-ball casting wizard level.
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"Survival" is a film/literature/video game genre about survival and self-sufficiency in the wild.
"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase used to paraphrase natural selection.
This is a great idea. It will be difficult to ascend the technological ladder with this in place, presenting a real reason to not die. It would also promote cooperation, because a big town would be able to ascend the tech ladder faster than a rouge player. I also like the idea of alchemy in general. I do somewhat disagree with your metals chain, but that's not a big issue at all. I don't think that enchanting should be with an alchemy table, but possibly with another crafting table. Magic, if included, would have to be balanced. It would be difficult to get spells, and they would be very limited use. They would only really be useful if you could afford to pay high prices to get single use spells, or if you were a hired assassin. Enchanting would be the best form of magic if I was in charge, like enchanting a bow so it fires magic blasts instead of arrows. I would make it so that the bow is like a tool- the more you use it, the more damage it gets. This would be entirely because I hate making arrows. Anyway, great idea. Making far advanced things difficult to get will strengthen teams, and make the people who want to spend the whole game killing people work hard to do so.
Ooh! I have a cool idea for this! Making fake gold. Sulfur + Mercury + Lead = Fake gold. It's as strong as gold, but wouldn't work for alchemical recipes. That way you can get gold armor without actually finding gold.
Not fools gold. Pyrite is stronger than iron. I am referring to what alchemists in old England did; they would melt lead and stir in mercury with a want, then release sulfur into the mercury and lead mixture, turning it gold colored.
Pyrite would be a good metal in game though- Sulfur and Iron mixed to make what looks like gold, but is much more useful. Plus, I would get a laugh about how fools gold is better than real gold.
Brilliant idea, I love the implementation you suggest, and truly hope Notch uses something akin.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
I don't think that enchanting should be with an alchemy table, but possibly with another crafting table. Magic, if included, would have to be balanced. It would be difficult to get spells, and they would be very limited use. They would only really be useful if you could afford to pay high prices to get single use spells, or if you were a hired assassin. Enchanting would be the best form of magic if I was in charge, like enchanting a bow so it fires magic blasts instead of arrows.
Notch HAS to read this.
I tend to disagree with the entire advocation for magic, however. The alchemy system alone is much cooler. Adding magic just seems over-the-top. Alchemy, more metallurgy and the crafting of mechanical systems will make MineCraft classier and more enjoyable than magic ever could.
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Choose your words wisely.
Defend your words flexibly.
Change your words fittingly.
Let prejudice, popular opinion, and preconception be free from your judgments.
Sorry that I haven't responded more frequently guys. I try not to spam up my own threads, and prefer to address points in larger chunks. But I appreciate all the input!
Quote from Foe »
It is a forge, and your reply, actually makes valid sense.
Anyways it is for metal crafting, and diamonds would have to come from alchemy...
It really only makes sense, and to me is right now the most non-sensical part of Minecraft. Diamonds are a non-malleable substance. You can encrust them onto other materials, but you can't form them into a shape like you can with metals. An arcane, even magical, process makes sense.
Quote from gilbbbr »
I've just realised that the station is made up of the gold blocks, three iron blocks and three wood. I really like this, it makes it harder to make the station until you have a good mine going.
Yes. :biggrin.gif: It serves a dual purpose. Gold personifies the alchemical ideals, while preventing "Joe n00b" from jumping in and spitting out enchanted and transmuted items within a few minutes of play.
It also fits in well with what Notch said this weekend: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9211, where there will be a scored Multiplayer Match mode where gold can be burnt off for points. In a game where every bit of gold can count, having access to Projection to transform lesser metals into higher ones and up to gold would make an Alchemical station all that more valuable.
Quote from Menen »
I say Yes.
But it doesn't make sense that you are using 3 diamonds to make 1 diamond sword, when you only need 2 to craft it.
Alchemy should also include a form of Recycling and Synthesis. Synthesis uses already made things (Like Armors, Weapons, blocks, etc.) and uses them to make new things.
Recycling only works on things like Torches or Weapons. You use Alchemy to get the materials back with a certain success rate.
a Wood Sword would have a much higher success rate than a Diamond Sword
Just because that's how you make an item now doesn't mean that's always how it will be. A lot of things can still change. I'm in favor of the best sword in the game being prohibitively hard to get. IF this Alchemy idea went through, you wouldn't be able to craft a Diamond Sword at the Workstation, because you're right, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Recycling may not need Alchemy. I could break an arrow appart with my bare hands just as easilly. But Synthesis, though, is a great idea. The Codex of Alchemical Engineering game has another Alchemical proceedure that I didn't mention, called Binding, which is essentially synthesis. There may very well be ways to use this that would be seperate from all other crafting. I'll have to think about that, thanks! :biggrin.gif:
Quote from Ten_Tacles »
+1 for the good idea.
-34235 because YOU suggested it.
Notch should add alchemic AND magic into the game.
Only -34235? Wow. I feel honored. Given that your entire reason for disliking me stems from the disaggrement over magic, I would have figured it would have been well over a million negatives. Or why not a billion? The number is irrelevant. Your dislike for me as a person based solely on a difference of opinion regarding this one item has been duely noted and summarily disregarded. :tongue.gif:
And again, Alchemy can BE the Minecraft magic, if that's what Notch decides. That's what I'm suggesting: implementation of the magical perception of alchemy as fuctional fact. That's all.
Quote from Lmaoboat »
I always thought transmutation circles were really stupid in that show. No matter how much you try and be sci-fi, transforming stuff by drawing a circle on the ground is magic on a fire-ball casting wizard level.
Quote from Dial »
What can I say? It's a must have, though I'd probably recommend against using anime magic circles.
Very true. It IS stupid. But it's simple in operation, which is how crafting is done so far in Minecraft. The circle keeps in theme to the Insta-craft Workbench and the Holy Furnace (which never burns but always smelts/cooks perfectly). And while the circles were very prominent and exploited in the anime, they're not exclusive to it.
But I don't think of it as bad as "pew-pew" magic. The materials you put in are real. The materials you get out are real, too, although they may be arcane, impossible, or enchanted. It's a compromise, and yeah, it's in a grey area. It may be that, yes, an enchanted sword may spew a fireball. If so, that's Notch's call. I hope not, but we'll see. We can really only go off of what's he's said so far. He has mentioned alchemy in that thread I just linked to, and he's mentioned enchanting, but I haven't seen him talk about wizards and spell-casting like many of us don't want to see, so that's hopeful.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
This is a great idea. It will be difficult to ascend the technological ladder with this in place, presenting a real reason to not die. It would also promote cooperation, because a big town would be able to ascend the tech ladder faster than a rouge player. I also like the idea of alchemy in general. I do somewhat disagree with your metals chain, but that's not a big issue at all. I don't think that enchanting should be with an alchemy table, but possibly with another crafting table. Magic, if included, would have to be balanced. It would be difficult to get spells, and they would be very limited use. They would only really be useful if you could afford to pay high prices to get single use spells, or if you were a hired assassin. Enchanting would be the best form of magic if I was in charge, like enchanting a bow so it fires magic blasts instead of arrows. I would make it so that the bow is like a tool- the more you use it, the more damage it gets. This would be entirely because I hate making arrows. Anyway, great idea. Making far advanced things difficult to get will strengthen teams, and make the people who want to spend the whole game killing people work hard to do so.
I almost agree with you on the metals chain. I personally would put bronze below iron, but the chain is realistic to what real alchemists worked with.
As for a seperate magic table, I would agree IF magic is increased beyond enchanting. I think that enchanting would be possible enough to do through Alchemy, but any sort of spell crafting would not.
From what Notch has said, it seems like he's thinking about enchanted items degrading faster, so your idea has a lot of merit. I'm not a fan of the idea of bows shooting magic, since that's a little too "pew-pew" for my liking, but if you could enchant arrows to freeze or enflame enemies they'd strike, that's more how I'm seeing it. But that doesn't help you with not having to make arrows, sorry.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Notch HAS to read this.
If he hasn't seen it already, I plan to email him the link once discussion has died down and I've made any corrections. Thankfully as long as he's occupied with /infdev/ there's not much urgency.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Ooh! I have a cool idea for this! Making fake gold. Sulfur + Mercury + Lead = Fake gold. It's as strong as gold, but wouldn't work for alchemical recipes. That way you can get gold armor without actually finding gold.
Quote from gilbbbr »
Fools gold= Pyrite
I like that idea.
Quote from Cheeseyx »
Not fools gold. Pyrite is stronger than iron. I am referring to what alchemists in old England did; they would melt lead and stir in mercury with a want, then release sulfur into the mercury and lead mixture, turning it gold colored.
Pyrite would be a good metal in game though- Sulfur and Iron mixed to make what looks like gold, but is much more useful. Plus, I would get a laugh about how fools gold is better than real gold.
Fools gold would be great for conning opponents who steal your gold in multiplayer. They think they're burning real gold for points when they end up with iron slag that smells like rotten eggs. :laugh.gif:
It's a good illustration, though, of the kind of complexity that can be brought to the table. I don't know how many crafting recipies Notch wants to add, but from the talk this weekend it seems like he has no difficulty making it as complex as we'd want to see it.
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Retired Staff....or, how to do Alchemy well in Minecraft
[Note]
Why it’s being suggested
- I mention alchemy whenever it seems appropriate around here, typically whenever the subject of crafting comes up. I consider it to be an ideal method of crafting highly advanced, complex, impossible, and arcane items.
- I wrote about it briefly in my Crafting Tech Tree thread, really only to emphasize the need for an Alchemy station as part of a Tech Tree. A number of people have expressed interest in exactly how I see it being used in Minecraft, so I’m writing it all up.
- I do not agree with having “traditional RPG magic” in Minecraft, although I would agree that given the “fantasy medieval” theme of the game that some form of magic may be appropriate. I consider alchemy to be a practical compromise: one that allows for enchanting and impossible items while not letting players hurl fireballs everywhere.
What it is
- What I am suggesting is a crafting-based approach to alchemy, either to make final products or intermediate materials for further crafting. Everything made using alchemy is a physical object.
- Alchemy is done at its own crafting station, just like Smelting and the Workbench. Notch has mentioned that we may be seeing additional crafting stations, as they make sense, and it makes sense to me to break something like Alchemy out from standard crafting.
- It’s advanced crafting. Alchemy, in its hey-day, was the realm of educated and curious “scientists,” and the processes where neither easy nor cheap. The station (equipment) should be costly to build and ideally not constructible from the start of the game (maybe require some gold blocks), and the materials as well should vary. While some alchemical processes may be simple and cheap, others should be extremely expensive and possible only for advanced players who have earned the right.
- Alchemy is by its nature arcane and mystical. While the real-world practical alchemy was nothing magical, the fanciful nature of Minecraft lends well to that perception. My suggestion stresses the arcane.
What it is NOT
- Apothecary (potion-making) –The Elder Scrolls games have used alchemy, although they dilute it down to potion making. I believe that potions and poisons would be better served at their own practical station, Apothecary, so that we’re not making “magical potions” that would enchant the player. While I can make peace with enchanted items, I do not believe that should extend to the player. Keep potion making separate, and leave Alchemy to its namesake which is “the art of transmuting metals.”
- Pew-pew magic missile – Alchemy should not be “spell crafting.” There is a big difference between an alchemist and a wizard, although in the real-world maybe not so much but that would be more practical not more magical. Alchemy is based on physical materials, combining them, altering them, and imbibing them, NOT filling them with energy from nowhere.
- Overpowered - Think about the anime Fullmetal Alchemist: Everything made by alchemy is practical, although it may be impossible, and had its roots in science. Equivalent Exchange: you don’t get something from nothing, and what you get is equal to the effort (time and materials) you put into it. Magic in videogames has long been void of equivalency: A simple 50 coin potion refills your magic points and lets freeze/fry/electrocute/crush/etc. your enemy to death? Enchantments need to be costly, limited, and worth only the life of the weapon, and should not be overpowered. Adding flint and steel to a sword should NOT allow it to throw fireballs. Nothing you can create lets you deserve that sort of unbalanced power.
Alchemy Primer
- Some “light” reading:
Wikipedia's Alchemy Page
Everything Alchemy
Practical Alchemy
Wikipedia Page on Alchemy Symbology
The Codex of Alchemical Engineering
------- The concepts of Transmutation, Calcification, and Projection
------- The materials used in Alchemy, particularly the Primes of Sulfur, Salt, and Mercury as alchemical catalysts and binders
Alchemy Perception
- Alchemy, though arcane, mystical, and usually very obtuse, was in fact based on early scientific principles. However, at that point in history, the common man was largely uneducated and would have been unable to comprehend many of the alchemical processes. As Arthur C Clark states,
- My suggestion is not to apply Alchemy as it was, but rather alchemy as it was perceived to be: magical….but still practical.
- With the perception of Alchemy being magical, the methods and uses expand greatly. I don’t think we should worry about the “traditional” uses of Alchemy, though that doesn’t discount them being included.
Alchemy in Minecraft
- Expanded materials
- First things first, more materials will need to be brought into the game, in particular more basic elements in the form of metals and primes.
- From my list in the Crafting Tech Tree thread:
- Station
- My thoughts are that Alchemy would work best as its own station. Afterall, due to the nature of Alchemy it wouldn’t be appropriate to do it on a Workbench. And given the advanced nature of Alchemy and the products you get from it, it should be a later-game station, and NOT something you can make at the beginning of play.
- My proposal for an Alchemy station in the Crafting Tech Tree thread was based on it being craftable from a more advanced workstation called the Advanced Forge and is done with a 5x5 grid. That may or (more likely) not happen.
- In order to make the station advanced and unbuildable from the start, my suggestion was to build it out of a base of logs and steel, with a cap of the most pure alchemical substance, gold. This is possible even with a 3x3 grid, like so:
[gold] [gold] [gold]
[iron] [iron] [iron]
- The resulting station could look something like this (I'm not an artist):
- The Alchemy station, like the Furnace, should have a unique crafting grid. My thoughts are for something like a Fullmetal Alchemist Transmutation Circle.
- The grid would be 6 slots surrounding a 7th in the center. The object to be Transmuted, Calcified, Projected, or Enchanted would be placed in the center, and additional materials plus catalysts would be placed around it. Here’s a simple mockup of how the crafting screen could look:
- Some Uses (not exclusive or exhaustive)
Transmutation
- The creation of gem and obsidian weapons and armor. Gems and obsidian are NOT possible to craft in the real world, and right now Diamond represents the best material in the game. It makes sense that it should be difficult to craft. Place gold weapons and armor (since gold is the most pure alchemical substance) into the center slot, and whatever gems or obsidian you want transmuted to it around it, plus the catalyst.
- The catalysts for Transmutation should be all three primes. One of each. Here’s a mockup of how to make a diamond sword:
Calcification
- The process of creating difficult or dangerous substances. A precursor to chemistry.
- Gunpowder without having to kill Creepers
- Base oil refining into a more explosive liquid
- The arcane creation of materials that can be then processed into advanced potions or poisons through further crafting
- The catalysts for Calcification should naturally be Salt (the base matter). Three of them. Here’s a mockup of how to make Gunpowder out of Sulfur with Coal:
Projection
- Tired of running out of raw metals? Use Projection to create a higher-order metal. Lead<Tin<Iron<Copper<Silver<Gold.
- Requires a Mercury (the fluid connection between the High and the Low) as a catalyst, and a large amount of raw materials for a little output ( a 4:1 ratio). Here’s a mockup of a Projection from Iron to Copper:
Enchantments
- I’m not sure as to what extent Notch wants to add Enchanting, so I haven’t thought that much on what sort of Enchantments could be applied, especially to weapons and armor.
- Enchanting would be best used for creating Water and Lava Source Blocks by Enchanting a Gold block.
- Creating an artificial light block that would shine like fire but not burn anything down or ever go out.
- Enchanted building materials (that would have a very slightly different texture) that are extremely difficult to break or blow up, even with the best tools.
- The item being Enchanted would be placed in the center, with the enchanting items (gems?) placed on the outside with the catalysts
- Sulfur (the omnipresent spirit of life) would be the catalyst here. I didn’t make a mockup of Enchanting, since I’m not sure how to do it best.
- Possibilities
- Yes, I know this makes crafting more complex. I’m sure you’d all get used to it.
- Yes, I’m aware that this makes getting Diamond Swords much more difficult, since now you’d need a Gold Sword, PLUS an Alchemy station, PLUS Diamonds, PLUS one of each catalyst. My response is two-fold: 1) Who the heck are you to deserve the best sword in the game? Deal with it and earn the right. And 2) the game has yet to be balanced. Difficulty reaps rewards. If you do manage to get the best sword in the game through such difficult means, then you deserve to get one-hit kills and a sword that pretty much never breaks.
Conclusion
- That’s about as best I can put it without getting too obtuse. I’m willing to discuss and debate any point here, and those that fit I’ll gladly add.
Thanks for reading!
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree
Great idea! Will add alot to the game!
oh, and BTW:
Bronze is refined from Copper and Tin, and Steel is refined from Iron, Coal, and some salts (maybe that strange powder drops from creepers?)
I think that being an alchemist should be a difficult path to pursue. The materials needed for powerful recipes (enchantments, advanced transmutation) should be rare enough and/or dangerous enough to acquire that many players only ever dabble with the simplest of recipes (creating gunpowder and such). I would further suggest that in keeping with the idea of alchemy being an arcane art requiring esoteric knowledge, that an alchemy station be bound to and usable only by its creator.
I wouldn't worry about it being too complex. Notch once said on IRC that while he wants to keep the basic systems of the game simple and intuitive, he was all for having more complex advanced mechanics.
Least crafting is with hand, lesser is work bench, and furnace, and greater is forge, and the above, and around.
You shouldn't expect to be able to ejaculate diamond swords within one hour's time, you have to go through the bases, and build the alchemist's lab in a 5x5!
Can we be expecting some odd materials and horribly horribly terrifying results when throwing any goddamn thing we can think of into the circle randomly? I noticed you referenced Full Metal Alchemist heavily for this, and that easily tempted me into thoughts of creating homunculus-esque things. Bring that pig you loved back to life? Creeper.
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Retired StaffCertainly not 10x. Your thread was great! I've just been thinking about this for a LONG time, since even before I made the Tech Tree thread. Makes for a lot to say. I'm not sure what they're making in the globe in the painting....probably the "Elixir of Life" or something.
Yeah, I was only listing the primary material. Refined metals like Bronze and Steel, if ever implemented, may be kept simple to just the basic metal or expanded to all the sub materials, but that'd be up to Notch.
I DO have some ideas for an Apothecary station; something simple but unique. I think it could be different enough to have as its own station. I've got to think about it more, though. I did NOT see your apocraft thread, Yourromance, sorry about that. I'll check it out.
The problem with Apothecary is that it'd require a number of "status effects" to be added to the game to really be useful, and I don't know how practical that'd be. Assuming Notch would go in that direction, though, there are a number of potions, poisons, antidotes, and effectuaries I can think of that would be nice to have.
I completely agree! And the idea of binding the station to the creator is absolutely essential to that point. When I update the OP, I'll be sure to mention that. Thanks!
I'm not worried about Notch thinking it's too complex. From his "mission statement" I figured he doesn't have a problem with anything like that. I really only mentioned that at the end to try and head off some of the whiners who have that strange "entitlement mentality" who think that it's perfectly fine for them to be running around with the best weapons and armor in the game without having to earn them.
The best example I can think of is Spore. Will Wright's original plan for Spore was sublime in its complexity and would have been one of the most amazing works he's ever done. But along comes EA and waters it down, removing the science in favor of a "matching game" and generic part levels. It removed the functional implications of the near-infinite creativity in favor of aesthetics glossing over a weak and "accessible" gameplay system that was ultimately BORING. I was anticipating Spore more than most people, and was a very active moderator on a Spore fan site, but alas: within two weeks I was completely bored with Spore. And I had such high hopes for it. :cry:
Keeping gameplay dumb and simple to placate those "gamers" who want to have the best of everything two minutes into play because "they're paying for the game" is IMHO the downfall of the videogame industry. I get furious whenever I see a post (on any forum) that says something like,
Of course, the biggest logical falicy there is that the player doesn't pay for their ideal game; they pay for whatever game the developer chooses to make. It's the gamer's choice and risk as to whether to buy it or not.
Personally, I would say "see-ya" and be glad to see those players leave. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want their money anyways. They wouldn't deserve the product of my labors. It's publishers like EA and Activision that are so paranoid about sales that they cater to these losers. Listening to them is fine, and I'm glad Notch does it, but when a game is tailored to "instant gratification," it's ruined every time.
[/rant]
In any case, yes, I agree. 8-)
That's my hope too! It whole purpose of a "Tech Tree," which I hope Alchemy can be a big part of.
I don't see why not. It'd all depend on the formulas available. Notch could put hundreds of formulas into the game, some successful and some disasterous, and I'd be all the happier for it.
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree
Goes hand in hand with my other post though, more options don't hurt and I don't think this would damage the feel of the game. I just take issue with what you're referring to as "alchemy".
I've never even found diamond, for ****'s sakes.
And to add on, this is the science of the arcane, which is like the astronomy of astrology.
And besides, this dude is trading in copious crafting, and labor to make things better.
Besides, this could be the way you repair things, and notch doesn't repairing, so the next best thing is make it hard.
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Retired StaffYou could turn it around and say that the anime was based off of alchemy, which it was. Really the only concept I think is pulled from Fullmetal Alchemist is the concept of Transmutation and the circle, but those aren't exclusive to the anime.
If anything, I pulled from the Codex of Alchemical Engineering the most, which as a game (and one made by the same guy who made Infiniminer, Minecraft's predecessor, I might add) makes it a pretty good fit. But again, none of those concepts are exclusive to it. The alchemical proceedures, the materials, the primes, etc., those are ALL well documented in the online literature I linked to.
Really, the only concept here that is completely foreign to alchemy is Enchanting. I added it for two reasons:
1) Notch already said it's probably going to happen.
2) It fits well with alchemy, especially in the Medieval perception of it.
As for diamond, it's supposed to be near impossible to find. I'm sure the quantities and locations will be balanced out in the beta, especially if new mineable materials are added. Hang in there!
Yes, repairing could be done this way, but I'd say only for those items only createable through Transmutation, like a Diamond Sword. If you put a nearly-busted Diamond Sword in the place of the Gold Sword, you could fully repair it. Repairing is cheaper than making a new one, therefore, since you don't need the Gold Sword, just the primes and additional Diamonds. Perhaps you could also do it piecemeal, where each materials slot repairs 1/3 of the item. So if your Sword was only 1/2 damaged, you'd only need two Diamonds to fully repair it.
But I would keep regular repairing at a "Forge" or "Anvil" or whatever it is that Notch mentioned. I think it was "Anvil": a station specifically for crafting weapons and armor.
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree
Anyways it is for metal crafting, and diamonds would have to come from alchemy...
But it doesn't make sense that you are using 3 diamonds to make 1 diamond sword, when you only need 2 to craft it.
Alchemy should also include a form of Recycling and Synthesis. Synthesis uses already made things (Like Armors, Weapons, blocks, etc.) and uses them to make new things.
Recycling only works on things like Torches or Weapons. You use Alchemy to get the materials back with a certain success rate.
a Wood Sword would have a much higher success rate than a Diamond Sword
"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase used to paraphrase natural selection.
Notch HAS to read this.
Captain Picard approves.
Not fools gold. Pyrite is stronger than iron. I am referring to what alchemists in old England did; they would melt lead and stir in mercury with a want, then release sulfur into the mercury and lead mixture, turning it gold colored.
Pyrite would be a good metal in game though- Sulfur and Iron mixed to make what looks like gold, but is much more useful. Plus, I would get a laugh about how fools gold is better than real gold.
I tend to disagree with the entire advocation for magic, however. The alchemy system alone is much cooler. Adding magic just seems over-the-top. Alchemy, more metallurgy and the crafting of mechanical systems will make MineCraft classier and more enjoyable than magic ever could.
Defend your words flexibly.
Change your words fittingly.
Let prejudice, popular opinion, and preconception be free from your judgments.
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Retired StaffIt really only makes sense, and to me is right now the most non-sensical part of Minecraft. Diamonds are a non-malleable substance. You can encrust them onto other materials, but you can't form them into a shape like you can with metals. An arcane, even magical, process makes sense.
Yes. :biggrin.gif: It serves a dual purpose. Gold personifies the alchemical ideals, while preventing "Joe n00b" from jumping in and spitting out enchanted and transmuted items within a few minutes of play.
It also fits in well with what Notch said this weekend: http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9211, where there will be a scored Multiplayer Match mode where gold can be burnt off for points. In a game where every bit of gold can count, having access to Projection to transform lesser metals into higher ones and up to gold would make an Alchemical station all that more valuable.
Just because that's how you make an item now doesn't mean that's always how it will be. A lot of things can still change. I'm in favor of the best sword in the game being prohibitively hard to get. IF this Alchemy idea went through, you wouldn't be able to craft a Diamond Sword at the Workstation, because you're right, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Recycling may not need Alchemy. I could break an arrow appart with my bare hands just as easilly. But Synthesis, though, is a great idea. The Codex of Alchemical Engineering game has another Alchemical proceedure that I didn't mention, called Binding, which is essentially synthesis. There may very well be ways to use this that would be seperate from all other crafting. I'll have to think about that, thanks! :biggrin.gif:
Only -34235? Wow. I feel honored. Given that your entire reason for disliking me stems from the disaggrement over magic, I would have figured it would have been well over a million negatives. Or why not a billion? The number is irrelevant. Your dislike for me as a person based solely on a difference of opinion regarding this one item has been duely noted and summarily disregarded. :tongue.gif:
And again, Alchemy can BE the Minecraft magic, if that's what Notch decides. That's what I'm suggesting: implementation of the magical perception of alchemy as fuctional fact. That's all.
Very true. It IS stupid. But it's simple in operation, which is how crafting is done so far in Minecraft. The circle keeps in theme to the Insta-craft Workbench and the Holy Furnace (which never burns but always smelts/cooks perfectly). And while the circles were very prominent and exploited in the anime, they're not exclusive to it.
But I don't think of it as bad as "pew-pew" magic. The materials you put in are real. The materials you get out are real, too, although they may be arcane, impossible, or enchanted. It's a compromise, and yeah, it's in a grey area. It may be that, yes, an enchanted sword may spew a fireball. If so, that's Notch's call. I hope not, but we'll see. We can really only go off of what's he's said so far. He has mentioned alchemy in that thread I just linked to, and he's mentioned enchanting, but I haven't seen him talk about wizards and spell-casting like many of us don't want to see, so that's hopeful.
I almost agree with you on the metals chain. I personally would put bronze below iron, but the chain is realistic to what real alchemists worked with.
As for a seperate magic table, I would agree IF magic is increased beyond enchanting. I think that enchanting would be possible enough to do through Alchemy, but any sort of spell crafting would not.
From what Notch has said, it seems like he's thinking about enchanted items degrading faster, so your idea has a lot of merit. I'm not a fan of the idea of bows shooting magic, since that's a little too "pew-pew" for my liking, but if you could enchant arrows to freeze or enflame enemies they'd strike, that's more how I'm seeing it. But that doesn't help you with not having to make arrows, sorry.
If he hasn't seen it already, I plan to email him the link once discussion has died down and I've made any corrections. Thankfully as long as he's occupied with /infdev/ there's not much urgency.
Fools gold would be great for conning opponents who steal your gold in multiplayer. They think they're burning real gold for points when they end up with iron slag that smells like rotten eggs. :laugh.gif:
It's a good illustration, though, of the kind of complexity that can be brought to the table. I don't know how many crafting recipies Notch wants to add, but from the talk this weekend it seems like he has no difficulty making it as complex as we'd want to see it.
Voyager of the Seas WIP ~~~~~ Big Book of Alchemy ~ Crafting Tech Tree