According to the wiki, and sample images there, large biomes are just a 4x horizontal magnification of the functions currently used to generate land -- effectively making all structures 4 times wider.
That has some side effects:
1. It makes islands bigger. Vastly bigger (16 times as much land area).
2. It flattens some of the hillyness (may be good or bad.)
3. It changes landscape generation in a way incompatible with prior generation (biggie!).
What I'd like to be able to do is to take an existing world, and make new biomes generated large, while keeping the land/sea boarder consistent between the old and new chunks.
Up til now, changes in the biomes have kept the land/sea boundary the same, and only changed the contents of the land. "Large biomes" could fit that by just making the biomes regions that overlay the land larger.
Instead, the current implementation acts as a zoom, altering where the land/sea boundary is, meaning you can not put large biomes into the new areas of old worlds.
(And 4: Already large oceans will take 4 times as long to cross by boat)
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
I'm not sure you understood me, and I'm sure I didn't understand you. So I'll try once more:
Currently, some fractal functions are used to generate a land/water boundary line. Inside the land area, other functions place biomes, and then given a biome, heights, dips, overhangs, etc, are placed. (Simplified to a slight bit of error, but close.)
In the current weekly snapshots, the same functions are used, but all horizontal scaling is multiplied by 4 -- so that if a boundary went north from 0,0 to 0,-30, and then up-right to 15, -45, it will now go north to 0,-120, and then up-right to 60,-180, and the sizes of all biomes inside that will scale the same.
This means that chunks generated in the new code will have different water boundaries, and *will not mesh*.
From 1.1 to 1.2, new biomes were added, and new transition rules were added, so that old 1.1 maps can get the new biomes, *and they mesh*. There is one world generation rule, and new chunks use that rule to match up.
With the new 1.3 system, large biome worlds and normal biome worlds are completely incompatible.
What I'm calling for is to only magnify the biome overlay, not the landscape generation. This means that the sample land will still go north to 0,-30, and then over to 15,-45, but instead of several biomes in that range there will likely only be one.
The result: Existing worlds can be switched to large biomes, and *new biomes will generate large, and the water boundary will match*.
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
This idea won't work. You can't just scale the biome size without modding the land size as well. You need to scale up the size of the land so that the biome will fit exactly, or there can be weird side effects.
This idea won't work. You can't just scale the biome size without modding the land size as well. You need to scale up the size of the land so that the biome will fit exactly, or there can be weird side effects.
Ok, code path time.
Last time I managed to MCP decompile was 1.1. Looking around, and looking at how different versions of the map generator worked on different seeds, what I noticed was that since beta 1.9 release candidates the game kept the ocean/land boundary constant, and all the new biomes resulted in a different assignment of biome to location.
In particular, there was no issue of "Does the biome exactly fit this land" -- it was "Assign this land the biome type X", or "type Y", without any regard to anything else.
Repeat: First the land/ocean boundary, then the biome contents of the land, then the land height/overhang density factors, then the surface decoration (note that I'm leaving out ore placement).
Changing the function that assigns biomes to land locations has been done multiple times.
Since 1.2 (?), the biome assignment to the land locations is now saved in the file, and no longer regenerated each time -- so now when the biome generation changes you don't have a mess of your land. This lets new jungles generate in old lands.
So we've got proof by example of "Lets change how biomes are assigned, and it still works".
All I'm saying is, change that biome assignment to lands once more, this time with a function that, instead of giving you new biomes, gives you different sized ones.
Old lands that have biomes assigned to them keep them.
New lands get new assignments, that are different.
That's all.
You can't just scale the biome size without modding the land size as well. You need to scale up the size of the land so that the biome will fit exactly, or there can be weird side effects.
Tell me where in the code you see a potential problem here. MCP for 125 or the snapshot (Was it 17a?)
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
The world generation is 100% dependent on biomes. Don't believe me? Add a biome to the game and start a new world with the seed 1234. Take note of the terrain, then make a world with a vanilla client on the same seed. Now compare the terrain of the two worlds, and then try tell me I'm wrong.
And lastly, oceans are a biome, therefore they will be larger in large biomes... The blown up land actually helps make ocean spawn points less of a pain in the ass.
The world generation is 100% dependent on biomes. Don't believe me? Add a biome to the game and start a new world with the seed 1234. Take note of the terrain, then make a world with a vanilla client on the same seed. Now compare the terrain of the two worlds, and then try tell me I'm wrong.
And lastly, oceans are a biome, therefore they will be larger in large biomes... The blown up land actually helps make ocean spawn points less of a pain in the ass.
I have, multiple times, made lands with different biomes in the list of valid biomes.
Every time, while the assignment of "which biome is in which section of land" is changed, the assignment of "This is land, and this is ocean" remains unchanged.
I've seen sections change from mushroom to taiga.
Or Extreme hills vs ... what was that other one?
I've never seen the ocean border change. (But I have seen rivers inserted as a border).
And, having 4 times as much ocean to swim before you reach land does not make them less of a pain. It makes them 4 times as much of a pain. Ever see a map spawn you in the ocean, not at an island at all?
While oceans are a biome, as near as I can tell, the generation code is approximately:
a. Use one function to find the land/ocean border.
b. Use a second function to lay out land biomes in the land area.
c. Use a third function to lay out border biomes (beaches, rivers, edges, etc)
d. Use a fourth function to insert "technical" biomes (such as forests inside plains, or the various hill variants)
e. Use a fifth function to define land/air locations based on height and density functions in the various areas (this is where the sea floor gets placed, the hill overhangs, etc.)
f. And then decorate the tops of the biomes.
g. And then place ores.
h. And then place caves, ravines, mineshafts, strongholds, villages.
Changing the list of land biomes does not affect step a. The border step guarantees aligned compatible future growth. And it becomes ruined with this 4x scaling function.
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
Im not sure of what you trying to do, but if your suggesting that it would be better to have more easier passage to biomes, then no, The ocean biome is a pain but it only make's crossing it more of a challenge and way more useful as enemy's would take a while and alot of time to reach your base, but if your suggesting having bigger biomes is bad in all ways and making less ocean, that is a bad idea on my opinion due to it needs to be a challenge, it doesn't need to a easy track so you can find a biome you like, also the ocean hides the mushroom biome so it's more of a adventure. :/
Having the biomes alot more larger around 25000 more big would be good as it would make the voyage alot more difficult and make you gain more experience besides building in a biome you would like.
I disagree with this because the large biomes generation is an interesting option to explore and survive in. The landmasses more closely resemble their real life counterparts when magnified, and provide a few interesting challenges. Deserts become vast oceans of sand that would take over a full day to pass by, requiring you to scrape together resources to survive there, rather than taking a small walk to the local grocery store forest or jungle for food and wood. Jungles become immense tropical rain forests that can immerse you in the feeling of living in a jungle, especially if you build a house in one of the many huge trees to look over the other trees for chunks on end. Every ocean can become a self-imposed survival island adventure map in which you find an island and do your best to live on it for a while before looking for land. Basically, what I'm saying here is that magnified land masses have their own niche in Minecraft, especially when the new extreme hills and beaches resemble their more lively pre-1.8 counterparts.
Of course, could just rename "Large Biomes" to "Magnified" and then implement your idea as the new "Large Biomes". Though, like some of the others in this thread, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for when oceans are their own biome. As well, I didn't know that large biomes generation was supposed to be "compatible" with the old generation, when you have to create a new map to even use the large biomes generator. The only time I can see compatibility being an issue is if for whatever reason someone hacks/a server changes their generator type.
Im not sure of what you trying to do, but if your suggesting that it would be better to have more easier passage to biomes, then no, The ocean biome is a pain but it only make's crossing it more of a challenge and way more useful as enemy's would take a while and alot of time to reach your base, but if your suggesting having bigger biomes is bad in all ways and making less ocean, that is a bad idea on my opinion due to it needs to be a challenge, it doesn't need to a easy track so you can find a biome you like, also the ocean hides the mushroom biome so it's more of a adventure. :/
Having the biomes alot more larger around 25000 more big would be good as it would make the voyage alot more difficult and make you gain more experience besides building in a biome you would like.
I'm sorry, I did not understand you.
Would you please try reposting what you said, and spending 10 minutes to make it easier to read? Thank you.
I disagree with this because the large biomes generation is an interesting option to explore and survive in. The landmasses more closely resemble their real life counterparts when magnified, and provide a few interesting challenges. Deserts become vast oceans of sand that would take over a full day to pass by, requiring you to scrape together resources to survive there, rather than taking a small walk to the local grocery store forest or jungle for food and wood. Jungles become immense tropical rain forests that can immerse you in the feeling of living in a jungle, especially if you build a house in one of the many huge trees to look over the other trees for chunks on end. Every ocean can become a self-imposed survival island adventure map in which you find an island and do your best to live on it for a while before looking for land. Basically, what I'm saying here is that magnified land masses have their own niche in Minecraft, especially when the new extreme hills and beaches resemble their more lively pre-1.8 counterparts.
Here, I can understand what you are saying, but I cannot understand what you are saying. (I hate English :-).
If the biome size overlay over the landmass is 4 times as large, then deserts are vast oceans of sand that take over a full day to pass by. Jungles are immense tropical rain forests, etc.
In other words, the approximate size of the biomes is the same -- in each case, it will be four times longer in each direction, or 16 times as large as before.
The big difference between "4x biome overlay scaling" and "4x landmass scaling" is the ocean. 4x landmass scaling -- what we have now -- makes the overall distribution of water and non-water the same. 4x biome overlay -- what I'm calling for -- makes each land biome larger, and results in fewer of them between water boundaries.
Of course, could just rename "Large Biomes" to "Magnified" and then implement your idea as the new "Large Biomes". Though, like some of the others in this thread, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for when oceans are their own biome. As well, I didn't know that large biomes generation was supposed to be "compatible" with the old generation, when you have to create a new map to even use the large biomes generator. The only time I can see compatibility being an issue is if for whatever reason someone hacks/a server changes their generator type.
"Have to create a new world" is exactly the issue.
Imagine if you were told "Ohh, Now we have NPC villages, you have to make a new world to see them". Imagine if you were told "You just made a new world for villages? We now have jungles, but your old worlds will never see them.". Made a new world? "Ohh, now we have larger biomes -- you have to toss your world again".
See the point?
Saying "I want to create a new world with larger land masses", some people might want that.
Saying "I want to have larger biomes in the new areas of my existing world", some people might want that.
Right now, the only people who can see this new stuff are those that will throw away everything that has been built up.
Though, like some of the others in this thread, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for when oceans are their own biome
** Oceans are not generated the same as other biomes **
Making the biome overlay 4x bigger will give you land masses that are the same size, and ocean masses that are the same size, but will make the biome content of the land 4 times bigger. (ok, 16 times -- 4x in each direction).
Alright, here is the TL;DR summary:
1. The new large biomes, as implemented, require restarting on a new map.
2. The reason for this is that the land mass layout is scaled by 4x.
3. This means that all lands, islands, oceans, etc., are 4x bigger in each direction (16 times larger area).
4. I'm calling for a change that keeps the land and ocean layout the same, but still makes the biome content of the land to be 4 times bigger.
5. This means that you have the option to tell the world generator to start making larger biomes in new areas.
6. This means you get large biomes in unexplored areas without having to throw your world away.
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
Ah, I can see your point now. Unfortunately, it's a world generator option, and not something that's actually been added to the default generation. When, say, things like birch trees (way back in beta) and jungles were added, they were naturally put in the default generator and if you wander out far enough with an old world you'll see them in the newly generated chunks. However, say you're making a world, you go to the generator options and turn the generate structures option off. If new structures are added in any new Minecraft update, you would likely never seem them no matter how far you walk because the generator option for them is turned off. Similarly, different world generator options are not supposed to be compatible with each other because of their inherent difference, which is why, say, when the superflat generator option was added that old worlds don't get to see it no matter how far they walk. Although the current large biomes generator very much resembles the default generator, it is still an incompatible world generator with older worlds and is not supposed to mesh with them.
To get what you're proposing, you would either have to add it as a different generator and hack your world to now use it and hope it is as compatible as you think, or propose that biomes in the default generator are changed to be the way that you want them.
(I hope that we understand each other now. )
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Curse PremiumThat has some side effects:
1. It makes islands bigger. Vastly bigger (16 times as much land area).
2. It flattens some of the hillyness (may be good or bad.)
3. It changes landscape generation in a way incompatible with prior generation (biggie!).
What I'd like to be able to do is to take an existing world, and make new biomes generated large, while keeping the land/sea boarder consistent between the old and new chunks.
Up til now, changes in the biomes have kept the land/sea boundary the same, and only changed the contents of the land. "Large biomes" could fit that by just making the biomes regions that overlay the land larger.
Instead, the current implementation acts as a zoom, altering where the land/sea boundary is, meaning you can not put large biomes into the new areas of old worlds.
(And 4: Already large oceans will take 4 times as long to cross by boat)
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
Also, this wouldn't change how oceans generate, because oceans are a biome.
Most people want everything to be bigger. This includes continents, islands, oceans, etc.
I think that there should be sliders for all of the variables in world generation instead of dozens of world types.
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Curse PremiumCurrently, some fractal functions are used to generate a land/water boundary line. Inside the land area, other functions place biomes, and then given a biome, heights, dips, overhangs, etc, are placed. (Simplified to a slight bit of error, but close.)
In the current weekly snapshots, the same functions are used, but all horizontal scaling is multiplied by 4 -- so that if a boundary went north from 0,0 to 0,-30, and then up-right to 15, -45, it will now go north to 0,-120, and then up-right to 60,-180, and the sizes of all biomes inside that will scale the same.
This means that chunks generated in the new code will have different water boundaries, and *will not mesh*.
From 1.1 to 1.2, new biomes were added, and new transition rules were added, so that old 1.1 maps can get the new biomes, *and they mesh*. There is one world generation rule, and new chunks use that rule to match up.
With the new 1.3 system, large biome worlds and normal biome worlds are completely incompatible.
What I'm calling for is to only magnify the biome overlay, not the landscape generation. This means that the sample land will still go north to 0,-30, and then over to 15,-45, but instead of several biomes in that range there will likely only be one.
The result: Existing worlds can be switched to large biomes, and *new biomes will generate large, and the water boundary will match*.
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
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Curse PremiumOk, code path time.
Last time I managed to MCP decompile was 1.1. Looking around, and looking at how different versions of the map generator worked on different seeds, what I noticed was that since beta 1.9 release candidates the game kept the ocean/land boundary constant, and all the new biomes resulted in a different assignment of biome to location.
In particular, there was no issue of "Does the biome exactly fit this land" -- it was "Assign this land the biome type X", or "type Y", without any regard to anything else.
Repeat: First the land/ocean boundary, then the biome contents of the land, then the land height/overhang density factors, then the surface decoration (note that I'm leaving out ore placement).
Changing the function that assigns biomes to land locations has been done multiple times.
Since 1.2 (?), the biome assignment to the land locations is now saved in the file, and no longer regenerated each time -- so now when the biome generation changes you don't have a mess of your land. This lets new jungles generate in old lands.
So we've got proof by example of "Lets change how biomes are assigned, and it still works".
All I'm saying is, change that biome assignment to lands once more, this time with a function that, instead of giving you new biomes, gives you different sized ones.
Old lands that have biomes assigned to them keep them.
New lands get new assignments, that are different.
That's all.
Tell me where in the code you see a potential problem here. MCP for 125 or the snapshot (Was it 17a?)
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
The world generation is 100% dependent on biomes. Don't believe me? Add a biome to the game and start a new world with the seed 1234. Take note of the terrain, then make a world with a vanilla client on the same seed. Now compare the terrain of the two worlds, and then try tell me I'm wrong.
And lastly, oceans are a biome, therefore they will be larger in large biomes... The blown up land actually helps make ocean spawn points less of a pain in the ass.
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Curse PremiumI have, multiple times, made lands with different biomes in the list of valid biomes.
Every time, while the assignment of "which biome is in which section of land" is changed, the assignment of "This is land, and this is ocean" remains unchanged.
I've seen sections change from mushroom to taiga.
Or Extreme hills vs ... what was that other one?
I've never seen the ocean border change. (But I have seen rivers inserted as a border).
And, having 4 times as much ocean to swim before you reach land does not make them less of a pain. It makes them 4 times as much of a pain. Ever see a map spawn you in the ocean, not at an island at all?
While oceans are a biome, as near as I can tell, the generation code is approximately:
a. Use one function to find the land/ocean border.
b. Use a second function to lay out land biomes in the land area.
c. Use a third function to lay out border biomes (beaches, rivers, edges, etc)
d. Use a fourth function to insert "technical" biomes (such as forests inside plains, or the various hill variants)
e. Use a fifth function to define land/air locations based on height and density functions in the various areas (this is where the sea floor gets placed, the hill overhangs, etc.)
f. And then decorate the tops of the biomes.
g. And then place ores.
h. And then place caves, ravines, mineshafts, strongholds, villages.
Changing the list of land biomes does not affect step a. The border step guarantees aligned compatible future growth. And it becomes ruined with this 4x scaling function.
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
Having the biomes alot more larger around 25000 more big would be good as it would make the voyage alot more difficult and make you gain more experience besides building in a biome you would like.
grocery storeforest or jungle for food and wood. Jungles become immense tropical rain forests that can immerse you in the feeling of living in a jungle, especially if you build a house in one of the many huge trees to look over the other trees for chunks on end. Every ocean can become a self-imposed survival island adventure map in which you find an island and do your best to live on it for a while before looking for land. Basically, what I'm saying here is that magnified land masses have their own niche in Minecraft, especially when the new extreme hills and beaches resemble their more lively pre-1.8 counterparts.Of course, could just rename "Large Biomes" to "Magnified" and then implement your idea as the new "Large Biomes". Though, like some of the others in this thread, I'm not entirely sure what you're going for when oceans are their own biome. As well, I didn't know that large biomes generation was supposed to be "compatible" with the old generation, when you have to create a new map to even use the large biomes generator. The only time I can see compatibility being an issue is if for whatever reason someone hacks/a server changes their generator type.
YouTube: youtube.com/pepperpillow
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Curse PremiumI'm sorry, I did not understand you.
Would you please try reposting what you said, and spending 10 minutes to make it easier to read? Thank you.
Here, I can understand what you are saying, but I cannot understand what you are saying. (I hate English :-).
If the biome size overlay over the landmass is 4 times as large, then deserts are vast oceans of sand that take over a full day to pass by. Jungles are immense tropical rain forests, etc.
In other words, the approximate size of the biomes is the same -- in each case, it will be four times longer in each direction, or 16 times as large as before.
The big difference between "4x biome overlay scaling" and "4x landmass scaling" is the ocean. 4x landmass scaling -- what we have now -- makes the overall distribution of water and non-water the same. 4x biome overlay -- what I'm calling for -- makes each land biome larger, and results in fewer of them between water boundaries.
"Have to create a new world" is exactly the issue.
Imagine if you were told "Ohh, Now we have NPC villages, you have to make a new world to see them". Imagine if you were told "You just made a new world for villages? We now have jungles, but your old worlds will never see them.". Made a new world? "Ohh, now we have larger biomes -- you have to toss your world again".
See the point?
Saying "I want to create a new world with larger land masses", some people might want that.
Saying "I want to have larger biomes in the new areas of my existing world", some people might want that.
Right now, the only people who can see this new stuff are those that will throw away everything that has been built up.
** Oceans are not generated the same as other biomes **
Making the biome overlay 4x bigger will give you land masses that are the same size, and ocean masses that are the same size, but will make the biome content of the land 4 times bigger. (ok, 16 times -- 4x in each direction).
Alright, here is the TL;DR summary:
1. The new large biomes, as implemented, require restarting on a new map.
2. The reason for this is that the land mass layout is scaled by 4x.
3. This means that all lands, islands, oceans, etc., are 4x bigger in each direction (16 times larger area).
4. I'm calling for a change that keeps the land and ocean layout the same, but still makes the biome content of the land to be 4 times bigger.
5. This means that you have the option to tell the world generator to start making larger biomes in new areas.
6. This means you get large biomes in unexplored areas without having to throw your world away.
Is that clear enough?
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
* My channel with Mystcraft, and general Minecraft Let's Plays: http://www.youtube.com/user/Keybounce.
* See all my video series: http://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/minecraft-editions/minecraft-editions-show-your/2865421-keybounces-list-of-creation-threads
(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
To get what you're proposing, you would either have to add it as a different generator and hack your world to now use it and hope it is as compatible as you think, or propose that biomes in the default generator are changed to be the way that you want them.
(I hope that we understand each other now.