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Proposal: Eliminate mob grinders
Poll: Should XP, and enchanting levels, be easy to obtain once you hav
Ended May 15, 2014
Poll: Should the base, default, rules for the game restrict what you c
Ended May 15, 2014
Poll: Given NPC trading for things in 1.3, is a free supply of resourc
Ended May 15, 2014
As far as xp is concerned, I can turn cobblestone to smooth stone and get lots of xp with the new snapshot, and honestly for someone who likes to build in survival modes, this is an easy easy easy way to gain xp.
I watch let's play videos sometimes. Some of the designs I've seen, the way people have used the way mobs behave to their advantage well, they're almost like works of art. It is in no way cheating to figure out how the game works and then use that in such a way that you gain the biggest advantage you can from it. In fact, that's what I would consider smart playing.
And guess what? If changes are implemented, people are gonna work ways around it. They are gonna still break mob behavior down in such a way that it will still work to their advantage. There is simply no way to completely end mob farming, and it would be silly to even try. It's not a bug, it's not a glitch, and it doesn't need fixing, end of story.
I agree no matter what it is not cheating and it is not glitch abuse in any way if you think that badly of mob grinders think about this two things 1. it is just a game deal with it 2. the only way you could get rid of grinders is to get rid of mobs all mobs.
on pvp mutiplayer is the only time that mob grinders are say unfair but on my single player world what gives you the right to say i can't have a mob grinder answer that You can make, and I have made, an XP grinder in one night. It isn't hard at all. As to "highly effective", that's just pretty talk for "waste a bunch of time making it bigger". Sure, I could, but I like to play the game, not build elaborate cheat devices for the sole purpose of pretending that I'm not cheating if it takes longer before I start collecting my infinite supply of free stuff.
Oh...from another thread:
Technically you can already get xp without mobs, by trading with villager priests for Bottles o' Enchanting.
A few high yield farms can make you rich in emeralds and keep the bottled xp flowing.
So, there's your "highly effective" setup. Build a grinder near a village, trade for bottles.. but this is where your wrong the villagers in 1.3 can only do one trade so many times
You can make, and I have made, an XP grinder in one night. It isn't hard at all. As to "highly effective", that's just pretty talk for "waste a bunch of time making it bigger". Sure, I could, but I like to play the game, not build elaborate cheat devices for the sole purpose of pretending that I'm not cheating if it takes longer before I start collecting my infinite supply of free stuff.
by making the grinder bigger dose not mean it is more effective, and why are you trying to say people can't have a grinder give me a good reason not that you think it is cheating or it corrupts the exp system give a real reason why they should get rid of exp grinders and i will look at it with an open mind.
there is a deference between glitch abuse and building a grinder to gain and i hate the idea of treading with the villagers and the villagers them self.
Because clearly easy access to high-tier equipment and enchantments on a server effects only the player that chooses to use the exploit?
By this logic, block duplicators should not be patched. Why? Because if you don't like them, just don't build them.
And yes, it is the same thing. You can build a grinder that churns out stacks of items. Items you then trade for emeralds. Emeralds you then trade for any given piece of diamond equipment, and the means to enchant it. That is an exploit, and one of the worst kind.
The system is specifically designed to prevent experience from dropping when mobs die from environmental damage. The clear intent is that the player is to kill the mobs if they want the experience. Explain to me how exactly gathering a group of mobs in a box, unable to fight back, weakened by enviromental damage (the thing that is supposed to prevent you getting credit for the kill) so that you can tap them with your fist and they die...explain how that is not exploiting a loophole in the way the system is intended to work.
A nice try to justify your cheat, but it fails. Both I and the OP have already offered two different approaches by which mob grinders can be, if not completely eliminated, at least prevented from becoming game-breaking. As for the second...I fully expect that to get patched just as soon as Jeb realizes what an absurdly easy way to get experience it is.
If experience were meant to be easy to get, things would give more of it. If it were not meant to take time to get experience, enchanting would not be so hard to do in the first place.
This takes all the challenge out of Monster Dungeons. Basically turning them off by killing one mob allows you to get the loot too easily. Sorry but I disagree with this thread.
This sums up my opinion very well.
The system is designed for mobs to not give experience based on environmental damage because that would not make any sense. Mobs accidentally fall off of stuff or land in lava all the time, even with their improved AIs that are supposed to protect them. Would it make any sense for these mobs to drop XP? Not one bit.
So if the player kills the mob, then you get the experience, because no matter how weak the mob is by the time you find it, you still killed it. Wouldn't you feel a bit ripped off if mobs just sometimes didn't give you experience because something happened to them before you found them to weaken them? Does it make any sort of sense for the game to work like that?
So, some people use mob grinders, and I will explain at least two reasons mob grinders make a whole lot of sense given the current setup of the game:
1. Mob spawning is infinite. Given enough time, you can run around, this means you can ultimately gain an infinite amount of items and XP. By building a mob grinder, you gain nothing extra that you would have gained by doing the same method I just described, other than time. That's a big part of the deal, is that mob grinders let you do the enchanty part of the game without you having to spend all your valuable time trying to kill mobs that you could be using instead on mining/building/exploring/whatever else.
2. Enchanting, in its current state, is still broken as hell. You have to level up all the way to pretty much the highest levels to get any sort of decent enchantment on your equipment, and even then, it's not guaranteed that you're going to get the enchantment you want. Even under the new system where you only have to get to level 30, you're still going to waste a lot of time trying to get what you want, and this is with USING the grinder. By running around killing mobs, there is practically no chance you're going to get specifically what enchantment you want.
Another thing I wonder, is how does it hurt you in any way that people are playing the game in this way? They aren't cheating, they are using the game in a clever way that works to their advantage, and as multiple people have pointed out a countless number of times, it's a completely optional thing! It's part of the game, but if you don't like it, there should be no reason for you to do it. If it feels too easy for you, then you can play the game in a different way. Stop saying, however, that people trying to save a little time by using the way the game works to their advantage makes the game "too easy", is "cheating" in some way, or affects you at all because it really doesn't.
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Curse PremiumReally? From my understanding, you have to obtain the ore/ingots -- that means the coal drops, or the smelted iron. You cannot get free XP from placing and mining the same block over and over. Did that change?
When did I say anything like that? If you are fighting and killing the monsters in fair combat, it does not turn off. If you have many of the mobs from the spawner die to the environment or otherwise unable to reach you, THEN the spawner turns off.
Not "kill one mob and it turns off". Please read the proposal better.
Taking advantage of the stuff in the game? Sure.
Not using glitches? That I disagree with.
But the real question is, once you've killed a few, should more continue to spawn? That's what I'm getting at -- as mobs die from the environment, that section stops spawning. Eventually your mob grinder dries up and stops generating.
Work of art? Sure, I agree that some are that way. Etho worked on a mob sorter system at one point to send each mob it's own way -- as I recall, he could not figure out how to separate the 1x2x1 mobs (skelly, zombie, creeper).
Figure out how the game works and take advantage of that? Not cheating to find the game's design flaws? Do you believe in the block ID/secondary value changer? The dup bugs? Should the game not react to you and change how it generates mobs?
Did you even read my proposal? My proposal has nothing to do with mob behavior, and everything to do with changing how/where they are spawned.
Does it make sense to say that you get the full XP value?
Non-hostile mobs give you some XP. They are not as much XP. They are not a threat, so they give you less.
So does this mean that a mob that isn't a threat should give you less XP?
That's a serious observation -- your point here is probably one of the best to come out of the thread -- near-dead mobs should give you less XP than ones you had to fully fight. So the more environmental damage they take before encountering you, the less XP they are worth.
Exactly.
EXACTLY
A few pages ago, I asked: If you have a map like skyblock, and have a cobble generator, is it cheating to just magic up a chest of cobblestone? Everyone said yes, it was cheating. Yet all it saves is time. Ditto for a tree farm for a map like that -- chests of wood just saves time, and saving time is cheating.
What does Etho do with his Ender Ender? He tosses 4 enchantments of level 45+ at 4 different picks, gets 4 efficiency 4's, and complains about it being junk.
Since when is efficiency 4 a junk?
STOP RIGHT THERE
I agree that the enchantment system is broken. You have no way to influence the type and nature of the enchantment in any way. That is broken, and it does need to be fixed.
But: "any sort of decent enchantment"?
Efficiency 1 is decent.
The only reason you can say "That's not decent" is that it's not the best possible enchantment. Well guess what: What makes you think you are supposed to get lots of powerful enchantments? Why don't you make a number of smaller, weaker enchantments?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, the reason for lowering the maximum level is to eliminate the whole "I'm supposed to get this uuber-powerful enchantment" mentality?
Good or bad, right or wrong, that is how Jeb designed the enchantment system. I think it's wrong.
PLEASE, look at those poll questions on this thread. Yes, right now you may have to enchant 15 times to get what you want, especially if you want respiration and aqua affinity on the same helmet. Etc.
Yes, you are not likely to get any specific enchantment. Does that mean that XP should be free? If so, why not automatically make all enchantments max level?
Odd. Using creative mode to save time is considered cheating. And if you really want something ultra powerful, why not switch to creative, do a level 50 enchant for free, and then switch back?
And all I'm saying is to stop one abuse by changing how the game works in response to that abuse.
And as has been pointed out, by that logic none of the duplication / item changing bugs should be removed, they should be made easier and easier.
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Prior to tonight, I actually thought that some people had a decent point. The idea that grinding mobs in one part of a 16x16x16 mini chunk would disable mobs in the rest of it, at first, didn't sound overpowered, until someone mentioned caves. And yes, I've got a section where there are 6 natural floors of caves from lava lake to sea floor -- from 12 to 45, 6 naturally occurring floors of caves. Yes, that means it's too large of a section to turn off so easily. So the specifics of this particular proposal are not good.
That doesn't mean the idea is bad.
And, after tonight, guess what? I don't think any of you have actually read and thought about what I said. Too many of you have pointless rebuttals to me.
- It's not "kill one and it's off".
- It's not "Kill the mob, don't get XP".
- It's not "It just saves time, it's not cheating" -- the rest of you have said that artificial time saving is cheating.
- It's not "Bugs in the game should be used" -- bugs are consistently fixed.
Think of it this way: Item duplication bugs are fixed.
Mob farms are the ultimate item duplication.
Mob grinders are XP duplications.
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The idea that a near-dead mob should give less XP because it isn't a risk is a good one. Off to suggestions for that.
* Promoting this week: Captive Minecraft 4, Winter Realm. Aka: Vertical Vanilla Viewing. Clicky!
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(In regard to a mod that gives realistic animal genetics):
Would you really rather have bees that make diamonds and oil with magical genetic blocks?
... did I really ask that?
My stance is in the parentheses. Mob traps are akin to diamonds as in they make the game easier as you go on. Long live mob traps!
Did you even read? First of all, if you kill it, then the spawn rate doesn't change. Secondly, it would take a hell of a lot more than one mob to trigger the chance of mobs not spawning. Just clearing out a dungeon by hand would be far more efficient.
In fact, yes. I would be perfectly happy if mobs sometimes did not drop any experience. Do you know why? Because if they weren't dropping experience then it would mean (under the system I proposed and you are responding to) that I did almost none of the work. Should I get experience if a creeper blows up? Clearly he died because I was there, or else he would not have exploded. That means that I did the work of killing him, right?...No, of course not. That would be silly. I may have been involved, but it was something else that killed him. So, if you just happen to come along and bump something with half a heart left, how is that any different than hitting a creeper which then blows up? In both cases, what you did would not have killed it, except that it was going to die anyway.
How would you feel if Jeb made the Creative inventory available in Survival mode? After all, you would have gotten all those blocks and items eventually, right? The only thing that Creative Inventory does is save you time. Except, for one thing. There's supposed to be an element of risk and challenge in getting those items. That's why it's Survival mode, and not Creative mode. So, why should it take work and risk to get most things in Survival, but somehow the most powerful element in the game deserves to be easy and free?
I beg to differ. I beg to differ very much. I'm sorry, but you are not automatically entitled to the very best super-awesome-uber-tastic gear. Would you like to start the game with a full set of unbreakable diamond armour and tools, too?
Enchantments are not something you need. They are a nice extra. They are meant to be a cool freebie that you earn for doing well at the game. Now, I realize that you may think you're the greatest thing ever, and that copying someone's design for a mob tower makes you some kind of god...but that is perhaps the single most arrogant stance I have ever seen anyone take. It's borderline offensive. You aren't supposed to get exactly the enchantment you want. That's why the system is random in the first place! Enchanting is an extra, a luxury. Even the lowest level enchantment gives you something you normally couldn't have or do, and the highest levels are meant to be super-special rewards, not something that you are guaranteed to get.
Tell that to all the many, many people complaining about how enchanting has unbalanced PVP. No matter how good a player you are, if your opponent has a grinder and you don't, expect to lose to their massive numbers of potions, full diamond Protection armour, and Sharpness + Fire Aspect diamond sword.
But once you have built one, the exp levels will be meaningless, cause you can level up easily so you can enchant all your items, and then in a few minecraft days you get to the end, beat the dragon, the end. Boring, whats the point of survival then?
The end isn't the end, it was much more. It was designed to make players reflect on them selves, make them think they could do better, and then suprise them by spawning them right back in their home.
EDIT:
Also, you're forgetting the resource management portion of the deal, in Minecraft 1.3, you have to collect diamonds for hours and then you still don't have a decent chance of getting a decent enchant. Another important procsess in minecraft involves going from a player who is afraid of monsters to a player who is using them as an advantagous resource. Mob grinders also help the creative process, encouraging players to think: "How can I make this more efficient, how do I make this better at what it does?"
SUB-EDIT: I really need to make up my mind, but here is another view: Poll is biased, I don't feel anything should be changed in terms of difficulty and enchantment. We have a balanced system as it is, we don't need to change it a bit. A recipe book for discovered enchants, and the ability to set circomstances around the table to increase some enchantment likelyness over other enchantments. With minecraft, there isn't much room for improvement without annoying somebody, so I think that's why Mojang is focusing on the modding and mapping community, so we can all be happy.
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOIt isn't a bug, it isn't item duplication, it's using spawn mechanics to you're advantage. Simmilar to exploiting a bug, but this time it was meant to be used in that way. The only reason Mojang hasn't removed this throughout alpha, beta and now, is because thay feel it's okay and balanced. They decided that Minecraft was a creative game, and this was a key factor.
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOMob grinders are part of the game, and if you dont like it, dont use it. Most people like this, so if they remove it because the whiners say so, the majority will be mad. That is why emerald ore was put back in, because more people said yes than the few who whined. Honestly, I have never seen a good reason to remove something,. Mostly the stuff is a long page about why it should be removed, but comes down to it is abusive, and should be removed. Huh? The few whiners who say so, maybe yes for them, but for the majority (75% or more) do not think so, and tell the whiners to just not use it.
Also, people who say whoever has a mob grinder will beat them in pvp, your a pvp whiner. You dont think they just built that in a few seconds, and the diamond armor they mined in a few seconds? No it took them time, and thats why you should try to stay out of pvp until you have good things.
EDIT:Also, infinite exp? Thats like saying since you replant food, and replant trees you have infinite things. A lot of things in minecraft are infinite, and whatever isnt there is a ton of since the map size is 360,000,000 blocks.
Minecraft basically has infinite everything.
Quite frankly, with this new system, the most efficient mob system would be one that spawns mobs and then drops them into an arena. It would be no different from fighting the mobs yourself, but the number of mobs produces would be higher.
This system gives a balance of risk versus reward, whereas the current system is any amount of risk gives you the same reward.
I don't think mob grinders should be eliminated, but I think they should be limited.
What give you the right to tell me what i can and can't build in my single player world?
How is a mob grinder use a glitch in minecraft if a player hits a mob and the mob dies within 5 sec. the player get exp. points, that is the current exp. system and, i do agree is broken and needs to be redo, but i think you should only get exp. if the player is the one to finish it off.
By the way with your idea if i do not, 1 hit kill a mob then i get less exp. if i am wrong give me feedback.
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@AnonTheMouse
you try to say a mob grinder is a glitch.A mob grinder is not a glitch but yet you try to say it is, and for the record i hate the villagers and, the idea of trading with them. (sry for bad format i am lazy)
It is irrelevant that the drops are infinite. Firstly that they're infinite anyway and it'd just be slower to collect them, secondly that the drops are rather worthless. Ok, you have a crapton of bones, now what? OMIGOSH you can grow things faster. Whoopity-flipping-doo.
It is irrelevant that the XP is infinite. It is infinite and easy to get regardless of whether you have a grinder or not. I can smelt the cobble in my chests and get the same if not more XP faster than a person who built a grinder. Enchantments are not a big deal as they are random anyway to prevent people from being overpowered killing machines with a sword.
And above all else, everything is irrelevant because you don't have to build them in the first place. Saying "remove them" because you and a group of people want to play a certain way is like saying that there's a piston elevator on the front page, but I like to use stairs, so pistons should be removed. It's ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous to think like that. I don't care if it's overpowered in you opinion, I couldn't care less about how much XP people get, I don't give a crap about how many YouTube views someone with a grinder gets more than you, someone built this for fun. I don't care in the slightest how creative it is, if they had fun building it, which is one of the largest points of playing this game in the first place, they can build whatever the hell they want. Simply because you play one way, thinking people should fight for their XP, and that's the only reason people should get XP, does not mean everyone else has to play the same way.
Large rant aside, that's about it. You don't have to build them, stop complaining that others do so. We aren't slaves to your way of thinking. Building mob grinders is fun for some people, that may not include you or me, but that doesn't mean that they should be removed.
[quote=Badgerz]You have to keep in mind that people are stupid.
[quote=Catelite]Just because you don't understand how something works, doesn't make it broken or pointless. >_<
Before attempting to give a strong arguement, correct grammar and spelling and try not to make the point you're defending seem even more lost. Also, don't use any of the 11 cop out techniques mentioned here. Even after that, your post is still weak, I didn't compare anything, I was responding to another post, which stated that gathering xp was a bug and shouldn't be exploited, and then followed the statement with a completely off-topic scentence about the uppcoming update. You agreed in the end with my statement even though you quoted it to argue it.
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOSurvival mode is supposed to be a challenge.
Of course, I've heard the arguments. There are three main ones, and I have no less than three counterarguments for each.