Terrain Seeds Are Useless! And Here's Why (Poll Added)
Poll: Do you agree that Mojang should improve the current MC Terrain G
Do you agree that Mojang should improve the current MC Terrain G - Single Choice
- Not sure (I'm on the fence) 11.3%
- Disagree (No Support) 12.5%
- Agree (I Support) 76.2%
Ended May 15, 2014
... actually, this:
2) Isn’t that terrain shape pretty awesome?
In the very earliest version of Minecraft, I used a 2D Perlin noise heightmap to set the shape of the world. Or, rather, I used quite a few of them. One for overall elevation, one for terrain roughness, and one for local detail. For each column of blocks, the height was (elevation + (roughness*detail))*64+64. Both elevation and roughness were smooth, large scale noises, and detail was a more intricate one. This method had the great advantage of being very fast as there’s just 16*16*(noiseNum) samples per chunk to generate, but the disadvantage of being rather dull. Specifically, there’s no way for this method to generate any overhangs.
So I switched the system over into a similar system based off 3D Perlin noise. Instead of sampling the “ground height”, I treated the noise value as the “density”, where anything lower than 0 would be air, and anything higher than or equal to 0 would be ground. To make sure the bottom layer is solid and the top isn’t, I just add the height (offset by the water level) to the sampled result.
Unfortunately, I immediately ran into both performance issues and playability issues. Performance issues because of the huge amount of sampling needed to be done, and playability issues because there were no flat areas or smooth hills. The solution to both problems turned out to be just sampling at a lower resolution (scaled 8x along the horizontals, 4x along the vertical) and doing a linear interpolation. Suddenly, the game had flat areas, smooth hills, and also most single floating blocks were gone.
The exact formula I use is a bit involved (and secret!), but it evolved slowly over time as I worked on the game. It still uses the 2D elevation and noisyness maps, though
- Word of Notch.
I read it and it makes perfect sense, haha! I'm very tired now, though!
I don't know what TL:DR is, so I'd have no idea how it would offend anyone. So you're saying since he's asking YOU to fix it, and the fact he said TL:DR or whatever makes it offensive because he shouldn't be saying that if he understood the full post, but he is saying that and claiming he does understand it entirely? I'm not quite sure if I'm right about how that is, but if I am I understand you there. BTW, on an unrelated note, went to your server, was pretty cool, found the edge of the map, wondered what it would be like if I jumped off the edge.... Then a zombie pushed me off. Yeah, I was just sitting at the bottom in total darkness and about to teleport out when it kicked me off and can't reach the server again.
I am so going to the far lands. I'm going. I'm really gonna go.
Yes, which is why I'm using NBXLite mod to downgrade without actually having to downgrade. What was the last version they were in? Anyone reply please! I just need an answer, though I'll look myself.
I believe we have a misunderstanding. I read the entire topic and I understood what you said. The reason I said that is because I didn't think you title fit what you were trying to say. This entire post you are saying that terrain generation needs to be better and that when it is it will fix the seed issues. I thought it would be a post completely about seeds just by reading the title and I was disappointed to find another person complaining about the ever changing terrain generation. Although I thought this was very well written and you brought up some good points so I support you.
I'm not the OP. Shreaders is the OP. I just feel like the threads I post on I should contribute more to, so I post here and there, and if I can answer any questions (assuming they're asked) I try to do so, if I know HOW to answer them.
I apologize then, this was my mistake. I'm glad you're supporting this.
If I can make a suggestion I think the title should be changed. When I saw the title I thought it meant wheat seeds. When I read the post I saw it was a bout terrain generation. I think
Quite a few people have said the same thing.
Revision pitch: Map Seeds Are Useless! And Here's Why: or Terrain Seeds Are Useless! And Here's Why:
Those both sound great to me.
Either way, Minecraft using a random object to generate it's maps.. Because computers can't generate random numbers by themselves they use a seed to generate it, by using the clock and a special algorithm they generate a random number.
Why is this all thread is wrong? Because of your tiny knowledge.
Minecraft can't use any other thing to generate their maps, The option to give a "seed" is just controlling the generation of the map, One of the greatest tools that minecrat can have.
In conclusion, Learn how computer and game programming works, Then suggest such stupid ideas!.
I've read some comments here.. And you are completely wrong.
I've been playing since alpha and bough the game in its alpha stage.
Beta brought a lot of changes, But the generator in 1.2 minecraft is the best terrain generator that minecraft has even had.
We have rivers, villagers, mountains, Huge caves.. etc...
As a game developer, Developing such things isn't easy.. And you as whiny gamers... stop whining about options because it's hard to code them.
Just one word changes. Either that or make the topic title like the signature I have, which is the one from this thread.
What the heck kind of angle are you coming from? Do YOU know how to program this? Really? Take a look back at the previous generation. Why isn't it like that now? It isn't cause minecraft just went "oh, I'm gonna generate different terrain now". No, it's because the development team changed it! They changed the algorithms, and now it's like the dull, lifeless terrain you see now. Dull, lifeless... kinda reminds me of your brain judging from your knowledge of this thread. I'm sorry I'm being nasty, but coming in with your big giant math talk and claiming something like that... really... really ticks me off. So go back and look at the old terrain, and explain why it isn't like that now, and why they would not be able to recreate anything like that ever again because it's so impossibly complicated. Go do it.
Oh, I know how you can do it too! Go back to Alpha or just before 1.8, type in a popular seed like gargamel, take a pic, then go to 1.2.5, use the same seed. Yep, they'll be pretty much the same judging by what you're saying. The computer needs a seed to generate it, so obviously if you use the same good one before it should still be amazing, right?
New biome code is better technically, but it generates biomes randomly and not based on temperature/humidity, resulting in same giant biomes without transitions.
New generator is better technically too, as biome features are not hardcoded into it, and it gives biomes better control, but it takes out variety.
Before biome only defined terrain block (sand for deserts), weather, tree amount multiplier, tree type and spawn list.
Now biomes also define min and max height (Either no mountains or mountains everywhere), colors, terrain features, amount of reeds etc.
For example, hills in 1.1 and 1.2 are implemented as biomes, as it's impossible to add true hills without making them generating everywhere in that biome.
Amount of trees per chunk is fixed value now, and depends on biome.
Amount of trees per chunk in 1.7.3 is number generated by Perlin noise generator, multiplied for some biomes. Of course, trees are more random in it.
However, it's impossible to have things like rivers and shroom biomes with old biome system.
If you see some biome once, you know that all terrain in this biome will be same.
Even Infdev and Alpha terrain was more varied.
No, that won't change anything. You see beauty now in only the naked bareness of the extreme hills that everyone boasts about. Ever notice, that when you go to a seed video it's either A. for some extreme hills formation B. for structures C. for structures or D. for structures? What we need is to take that extreme hills biome and 1. Seperate the hills so they are not spammed together 2. add the height variation for extreme hills to most or all biomes 3. Add biome and temperature detection. This is my new idea, and what it would do is, when creating a world, when a biome is created, the biomes around it are made based on what that biome is. That means that if a desert would spawn, the biomes around it would be very dry, and not a tiaga biome like normal. Tiagas would most likely spawn near mountains, and hopefully they dev team will make them spawn higher up so that the snow makes sense. It would make world gen increase significantly, but make some awesome terrain (hopefully). 4. Make caves come to an end very often, and spawn them very far from eachother, spawning in the sides of high land masses, to even it out (because the large landmasses would be spread across the landscape). With this and with a few other agents I MIGHT have forgotten to mention, you could create a clean and good way to make nice and wild terrain.
Dear god! the infdev terrain! Saw it in NBXLite, and could barely trek it! Was ravaged and oblong, obtuse and strange. Maybe I've just been pampered by joining in 1.8. Anyway, some of the reason the land is so boring is BECAUSE everything is controlled. We need some strange lands and rare things to occur. I'd say if you and I put our two worlds side by side for about 2048 chunks l x w x h, they'd be very alike and have almost nothing that was rare, except maybe a floating cactus. Sometimes you just got to let things fly. Anyway, about your comment on the 1.7 generator, that really doesn't matter because no one here is (or should be) asking for it back. The dev team should be able to tweak the generator so that what we're wishing for happens, still with the capability for rivers, and ect that you mentioned. We don't want them to backtrack. We want them to DEVELOP, so that the new terrain is as wild and as fun as the old terrain without BEING the old terrain, which includes rivers and the like that has already been implemented, and especially structures.