Well, whether or not the title is true, the debate over XP/leveling has got everyone thinking. Which means a lot of threads. So here's another one.
BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT: Respawning a character should be a burden on the player community. Dead players drop a skull item, which must be carried to an altar block. Resources and time (of living players) must be used in order to respawn a character. Respawned characters start with minimum health and no equipment.
MY REASONING:
MUSINGS ON DEATH: Here's what we know is generally understood for the significance of Minecraft survival death:
1> It's supposed to be really bad. Death should carry a horrendous penalty.
2> A generally novel concept of respawning in the theme of Minecraft should be upheld.
ON THE PENALTY OF DEATH: So, what does the player lose? Traditionally, it would be levels or XP, but that's been given the shove (good riddance!). Of course, all items are dropped or destroyed as well (this penalty can be mitigated by prudent players, who would carry very little).
ON THE THEME OF MINECRAFT: The big things that Minecraft has going for it, in my opinion, is: One, game-mechanic novelty (not many other games like this one, eh?), and two, creativity is encouraged through gameplay. This is seen in how the player builds and creates tools, fortresses, and secures resources. As of right now, there are no stats for the players aside from their health (and air), and honestly I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT THIS WAY (It upholds the two big things going for Minecraft, see above). A player's advantage in Minecraft relies on: 1) His FPS skills, 2) His creativity in building, exploring, and martial encounters, and 3) The resources he has collected.
THE PROPOSED SOLUTION: Survival MP would seem to focus on how well everyone can do something as a team. I therefore propose that not only should the individual suffer consequences of death, but the community as well. Let me explain further by explaining game flow using imaginary rules that may reinforce the penalty of death:
Game Start: Only a small number of players should be allowed to initially spawn on a map. Perhaps four? Alternatively, new players may only join directly into the game (instead of spectator mode) until the first sunset. All players spawn from the same house. Players could construct an item (beds, lockers, what have you) that allows a newcomer (not-previously dead in this session) to spawn.
Player Death: When a player dies, everything they were carrying is destroyed. They are summarily dismissed to spectator mode, and leave behind a skull item. For them to respawn, a living player must retrieve the skull, and use a crafting recipe (which involves said skull) on a crafting block (operating table, altar, whatever) to revive the character. Perhaps this crafting ritual involves not only resources but time, requiring the reviver to remain in the vicinity of the altar for 60 seconds or so.
This alternative adheres to both the severity of death and the theme of Minecraft (through the procurement and crafting of resources to revive/introduce players). A living player must risk his own death in retrieving a fellow player's skull, and must decide when to spend precious resources on reviving characters, or letting less-helpful players be trapped in limbo to spectate the match forever.
I like the losing items thing and player start. But the skull revive system requires too much...teamwork... which is really bad on the internet from my experience. What if theres only two people or the player dies in the middle of a pit of lava?
If you need a player's skull to revive them, then its going to be hell when a murderer buries your remains in his cellar.
There should be a secondary revival, just in case your skull is in lava or hidden or unreachable by conventional means.
A summoning ritual seems to work here.
Also, Too Much Teamwork required.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is always nice to have a sense of improbability in Littlebigplanet. FROGMORTON. Heh, you didn't expect that now did you?"
-Stephen Fry
I like the losing items thing and player start. But the skull revive system requires too much...teamwork... which is really bad on the internet from my experience. What if theres only two people or the player dies in the middle of a pit of lava?
On two players: Well, if you don't revive him, then you are completely alone. Good luck with that survival thing! (The session terminates when all players are dead, like the present indev version.)
On pool of lava: Bounce the skull around like an ignot. Skulls should only be destroyed when the player leaves the game.
On teamwork: Well, here's my counterpoint. Left4Dead, for example, works pretty darn well as a co-op game because the players absolutely require the others to survive. When you know in your survival game that the only players you have are the ones you save (or the ones you've wasted resources to bring into the game), it should (in theory) reinforce the need to work together. Of course, there will always be detractors. Simple solution. Drop them in lava or leave them outside of the tower at night, and throw his skull beneath the waves or down the deepest pit you can find!
Definately a good idea, I fully support it.
I also read something about a secondary ritual about bringing players back. This technique is prevalent in World of Warcraft. I don't think this game should mimic WoW at all, but they do have some good ideas.
Maybe some sort of ghost mode where they have to do some sort of ghost things? That way, dead players don't have to just wander around in spec mode and spam chat to get other people to bring them back.
Maybe some sort of ghost mode where they have to do some sort of ghost things? That way, dead players don't have to just wander around in spec mode and spam chat to get other people to bring them back.
Solution: Don't let dead players chat.
That said, I like the idea. I think a slightly better way to go about doing this, though, would be to leave behind corpses which need to be dragged back to an altar. Otherwise, one player could pick up every single enemy skull and just never drop them out of his inventory. A corpse to be lugged around results in a bit of time used transporting the bodies, and it makes their transport more obvious and I guess a bit more interesting? Perhaps an altar must be built beforehand, and the soul "bound" to said altar, to be revived there. (This would prevent the need for a boring "sit around for 60 seconds-fest" like you suggest.)
Since I'm already criticizing, I don't think dying should destroy everything you were carrying. Drop it and let it scatter all over, sure. Allow enemies to loot your downed body. But the inventory is a big thing, and that would be a huge amount of lost material. Even if you just drop a chest where you fall, full of your inventory.
Finally: How long do you envision games of MP Survival lasting?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
There should be a secondary revival, just in case your skull is in lava or hidden or unreachable by conventional means.
Not a bad idea, especially if the skull was handled like ignots are right now. But this alternate method should not be without cost. Since there is less risk in searching for the dead player, perhaps the materials required should be tripled (maybe trebled)?
Quote from Droqen »
That said, I like the idea. I think a slightly better way to go about doing this, though, would be to leave behind corpses which need to be dragged back to an altar. Otherwise, one player could pick up every single enemy skull and just never drop them out of his inventory. A corpse to be lugged around results in a bit of time used transporting the bodies, and it makes their transport more obvious and I guess a bit more interesting? Perhaps an altar must be built beforehand, and the soul "bound" to said altar, to be revived there
Good point. If someone dies whilst carrying a skull, someone's lifeline just got vaporized. Perhaps a different way of handling the skull is in order. Maybe these don't vaporize with the rest of the inventory? Maybe a skull block? Or perhaps the dead player can 'associate' his spirit with a player in the immediate vicinity, and that player must return and perform the ritual.
Quote from Droqen »
Since I'm already criticizing, I don't think dying should destroy everything you were carrying. Drop it and let it scatter all over, sure. Allow enemies to loot your downed body. But the inventory is a big thing, and that would be a huge amount of lost material. Even if you just drop a chest where you fall, full of your inventory.
The chest idea is not bad. I do still prefer losing your personal inventory as an appropriate punishment, especially for players with higher craft items (shame on them!).
Quote from Droqen »
Finally: How long do you envision games of MP Survival lasting?
You know, I didn't think about that... I guess to refine that question even more is to ask: What defines a survival "victory?"
THOUGHTS ON SURVIVAL VICTORY: To be honest, I'm not keen on having a single objective as the victory. But what I do think would be fantastic would be to earn victory achievements for certain feats. I know this is also a bit out there, but let me give an example:
A button is hot-keyed to a Victory Status menu. This shows perhaps three to six bosses and their alive/defeated status. These bosses should spawn differently, and only under certain conditions to give variety (one resides deep within the earth, one comes out only every three nights [lock the stinking door if you're not ready!], one is summoned after crafting and placing an extremely resource-expensive 'idol' block...and so on. When a boss is defeated, some form of the game should ramp up in difficulty to make the other goals more difficult to obtain (harder mobs, weaker tools, meaner bosses, less hearts). Only the most team-oriented, minecrafty badasses should be able to fully and completely win all survival goals.
So, how long should the game last? I dunno. I think three to four hours is plenty epic. Any longer, and there would be a lot of pissed-off-ne'er-play-that-again people who just so happened to be hugged by a creeper right before crafting the uber-idol. But then again, I'm not committed to a definite timeline yet. But I do like having different bosses who must be approached differently.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
MY REASONING:
MUSINGS ON DEATH: Here's what we know is generally understood for the significance of Minecraft survival death:
1> It's supposed to be really bad. Death should carry a horrendous penalty.
2> A generally novel concept of respawning in the theme of Minecraft should be upheld.
ON THE PENALTY OF DEATH: So, what does the player lose? Traditionally, it would be levels or XP, but that's been given the shove (good riddance!). Of course, all items are dropped or destroyed as well (this penalty can be mitigated by prudent players, who would carry very little).
ON THE THEME OF MINECRAFT: The big things that Minecraft has going for it, in my opinion, is: One, game-mechanic novelty (not many other games like this one, eh?), and two, creativity is encouraged through gameplay. This is seen in how the player builds and creates tools, fortresses, and secures resources. As of right now, there are no stats for the players aside from their health (and air), and honestly I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT THIS WAY (It upholds the two big things going for Minecraft, see above). A player's advantage in Minecraft relies on: 1) His FPS skills, 2) His creativity in building, exploring, and martial encounters, and 3) The resources he has collected.
THE PROPOSED SOLUTION: Survival MP would seem to focus on how well everyone can do something as a team. I therefore propose that not only should the individual suffer consequences of death, but the community as well. Let me explain further by explaining game flow using imaginary rules that may reinforce the penalty of death:
Game Start: Only a small number of players should be allowed to initially spawn on a map. Perhaps four? Alternatively, new players may only join directly into the game (instead of spectator mode) until the first sunset. All players spawn from the same house. Players could construct an item (beds, lockers, what have you) that allows a newcomer (not-previously dead in this session) to spawn.
Player Death: When a player dies, everything they were carrying is destroyed. They are summarily dismissed to spectator mode, and leave behind a skull item. For them to respawn, a living player must retrieve the skull, and use a crafting recipe (which involves said skull) on a crafting block (operating table, altar, whatever) to revive the character. Perhaps this crafting ritual involves not only resources but time, requiring the reviver to remain in the vicinity of the altar for 60 seconds or so.
This alternative adheres to both the severity of death and the theme of Minecraft (through the procurement and crafting of resources to revive/introduce players). A living player must risk his own death in retrieving a fellow player's skull, and must decide when to spend precious resources on reviving characters, or letting less-helpful players be trapped in limbo to spectate the match forever.
Discuss!
There should be a secondary revival, just in case your skull is in lava or hidden or unreachable by conventional means.
A summoning ritual seems to work here.
Also, Too Much Teamwork required.
-Stephen Fry
On two players: Well, if you don't revive him, then you are completely alone. Good luck with that survival thing! (The session terminates when all players are dead, like the present indev version.)
On pool of lava: Bounce the skull around like an ignot. Skulls should only be destroyed when the player leaves the game.
On teamwork: Well, here's my counterpoint. Left4Dead, for example, works pretty darn well as a co-op game because the players absolutely require the others to survive. When you know in your survival game that the only players you have are the ones you save (or the ones you've wasted resources to bring into the game), it should (in theory) reinforce the need to work together. Of course, there will always be detractors. Simple solution. Drop them in lava or leave them outside of the tower at night, and throw his skull beneath the waves or down the deepest pit you can find!
I also read something about a secondary ritual about bringing players back. This technique is prevalent in World of Warcraft. I don't think this game should mimic WoW at all, but they do have some good ideas.
Maybe some sort of ghost mode where they have to do some sort of ghost things? That way, dead players don't have to just wander around in spec mode and spam chat to get other people to bring them back.
Solution: Don't let dead players chat.
That said, I like the idea. I think a slightly better way to go about doing this, though, would be to leave behind corpses which need to be dragged back to an altar. Otherwise, one player could pick up every single enemy skull and just never drop them out of his inventory. A corpse to be lugged around results in a bit of time used transporting the bodies, and it makes their transport more obvious and I guess a bit more interesting? Perhaps an altar must be built beforehand, and the soul "bound" to said altar, to be revived there. (This would prevent the need for a boring "sit around for 60 seconds-fest" like you suggest.)
Since I'm already criticizing, I don't think dying should destroy everything you were carrying. Drop it and let it scatter all over, sure. Allow enemies to loot your downed body. But the inventory is a big thing, and that would be a huge amount of lost material. Even if you just drop a chest where you fall, full of your inventory.
Finally: How long do you envision games of MP Survival lasting?
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Good point. If someone dies whilst carrying a skull, someone's lifeline just got vaporized. Perhaps a different way of handling the skull is in order. Maybe these don't vaporize with the rest of the inventory? Maybe a skull block? Or perhaps the dead player can 'associate' his spirit with a player in the immediate vicinity, and that player must return and perform the ritual.
The chest idea is not bad. I do still prefer losing your personal inventory as an appropriate punishment, especially for players with higher craft items (shame on them!).
You know, I didn't think about that... I guess to refine that question even more is to ask: What defines a survival "victory?"
THOUGHTS ON SURVIVAL VICTORY: To be honest, I'm not keen on having a single objective as the victory. But what I do think would be fantastic would be to earn victory achievements for certain feats. I know this is also a bit out there, but let me give an example:
So, how long should the game last? I dunno. I think three to four hours is plenty epic. Any longer, and there would be a lot of pissed-off-ne'er-play-that-again people who just so happened to be hugged by a creeper right before crafting the uber-idol. But then again, I'm not committed to a definite timeline yet. But I do like having different bosses who must be approached differently.