NO Abbreviation,for who doesn't understand the above.
This is an Topic to disscuss the currect FLAWED combat system.
Ill tell you why:
it will never reach a fighting aspect of a quality reasonably comparable to any other game, including Terraria. The game wasn't designed with any aspect of combat in mind. It was designed as a building game, with a tacked on combat system forced on in order to expand on the fantasy genre niche Notch aimed to fill.
For the same reason online games generally have to be built from the ground up to be of a high quality, you can't make a game designed to be a building simulator and halfway through development try to attach a combat system to it, the combat aspect will end up half baked and uninteresting, as it did in Minecraft.
The reason Terraria succeeds in combat where Minecraft fails is because combat was designed, from the beginning of development, to be a major, important feature, and was treated as such. Weapons of reasonable variety, enemies with sufficiently intelligent AI, which were fun to fight, and well designed boss fights were design decisions which were pursued throughout the development process, and it payed off.
On the other hand, Minecraft put almost no effort into its combat system, and it shows. The fighting aspect is, laid bare, nothing more than repeatedly clicking to attack, and jumping around like a rabbit to get critical hits. Bows are much the same.
Enemies are uninteresting to fight and simply shamble towards you. There is no artificial intelligence programmed into them(For example,Team Fortress 2 bots are good at finding paths theirselfes and actually try to be challenging). Enemies have no pathfinding. A two block high wall will stop all non flying enemies (There are none in the overworld, so you can consider that effectively all enemies), and defeating the game's mascot, the creeper, memetically considered a harbringer of doom, is as easy as standing on your two block ledge, and hitting him with your sword and bow as he stands still. There are no attack animations, they either spawn their attack projectiles from hammerspace or touch you for damage. Effectively, combat is boring, lacks variety, and enemies are too stupid to be of any interest or difficulty. Now, could this be fixed? Yes. Will it be fixed? Most likely no,as nobody complains about it.
The main problem of why this will never really be fixed is lack of design focus. Minecraft has so many features clamoring for attention by players, many of them in direct contradiction to each other, that they try to balance focus on each mechanic, and it simply doesn't work. Pander to the engineers with their wiring system, wanting complexity to build insane contraptions, Pander to the casual players who want no complexity and only want a social media experience. Pander to the mob farmers who want monsters to die easily, Pander to the hardcore player, who wants to fight difficult, challenging, and long lived enemies. The list goes on and on. In this confusion, no one has an idea how important combat is supposed to be, and as far as I'm concerned, neither do the developers, because they seem to think throwing more monsters at the game like a village guard or boss fight is enough to fix anything.
I want to make this clear: Adding new enemies does not solve the problem. You cannot take a shoddily designed combat system, and simply throw more enemies at it to fix its problems. Without a complete overhaul of the entire combat system, enemy AI system, weapon system, and design focus, combat in minecraft will not improve, and I don't see this happening anytime soon.
Will this be hard?Yes.
But this will be big revamp to the entrie game.
First of all, bravo. I think you've summed up the failings of the combat system nicely. That said, however, this really isn't a suggestion in its own right, and would be more appropriate to the discussion boards. I do think that combat need overhauled in a large way, though. I myself have tried to address this in small ways. My topic pointing out that Creeper behaviour didn't live up to their "terrifying" reputation (In decent armour you can survive the blast without worry, for Jeb's sake!) wasn't well received, though. More recently, I've worked up a system to change how damage is handled, with the hope of gently encouraging more strategic play. I freely admit, though, that it won't do much without improvements to the AI as well...though signs are hopefully pointing to many more AI enhancements on the way.
Just sying this is just a list of faults what should be changed? fr example a new potion effect called stun which you would get by being hit by a spider. it stops the player doing anythin for a small amount of time
NO,this ins't for suggestions about new effects,that is something else.
We are disscussing how the Combat System clould be improved.For me potion system is good form now.Besides adding new potions is like adding new mobs.Doesn't.Help.
EDIT:Also,according to Anon,we need to move this. To Disscussion.
I don't know if mods can help me out,but oh well.
The "combat system" in Minecraft isn't intended to be fun in the same way that an action game's would be. It's there to serve a larger purpose in the context of the game.
Monsters are there to provide danger. The primary way to overcome the danger they pose isn't supposed to be by fighting them, but by building- lighting up areas to prevent them from spawning, fences to keep them away, food to keep your health up, and iron armor if you've done enough mining to be able to afford it. A single zombie isn't intended to be a threat to an established player. Monsters are supposed to be dangerous when you're out in the middle of the wilderness at night without proper supplies. They're supposed to be dangerous when you're in an unlit cave, and a creeper can appear at any moment to blow you up and knock you into lava.
The "combat system" in Minecraft isn't intended to be fun in the same way that an action game's would be. It's there to serve a larger purpose in the context of the game.
Monsters are there to provide danger. The primary way to overcome the danger they pose isn't supposed to be by fighting them, but by building- lighting up areas to prevent them from spawning, fences to keep them away, food to keep your health up, and iron armor if you've done enough mining to be able to afford it. A single zombie isn't intended to be a threat to an established player. Monsters are supposed to be dangerous when you're out in the middle of the wilderness at night without proper supplies. They're supposed to be dangerous when you're in an unlit cave, and a creeper can appear at any moment to blow you up and knock you into lava.
But still,you're denying one aspect important for any game. Fun.
While you may be right,but is it fun to make a fortress,then make it impossible for mobs to even reach you?
Nope.Fighting is fun.This is what the players want,but currect combat system makes it dull and boring.
Then why don't you do what he said to avoid fighting?
Because that also makes the game Boring.Yeah,you might even like mining,but are there some hardocre players here and there.
Im trying to make both opitions you said feastible so other players might also like this. thus greater profit.
The "combat system" in Minecraft isn't intended to be fun in the same way that an action game's would be. It's there to serve a larger purpose in the context of the game.
Monsters are there to provide danger. The primary way to overcome the danger they pose isn't supposed to be by fighting them, but by building- lighting up areas to prevent them from spawning, fences to keep them away, food to keep your health up, and iron armor if you've done enough mining to be able to afford it. A single zombie isn't intended to be a threat to an established player. Monsters are supposed to be dangerous when you're out in the middle of the wilderness at night without proper supplies. They're supposed to be dangerous when you're in an unlit cave, and a creeper can appear at any moment to blow you up and knock you into lava.
I think a Monty Python sketch put it best: "That's as may be, but it's still a frog."
In other words, the fact that it's not a core feature is no excuse for something being poorly implemented. That's particularly so when it's something that comes up often, and mobs appear every night. More to the point, though, is the fact that with additions like parrying, critical hits, and enchanting, that excuse no longer holds as true as it once did. More of the focus of the game has been drawn onto combat, and while improvements have been made, it is still a flawed mechanic at its heart.
Now, I will be the first to say that simplicity is itself one of the core aspects of Minecraft. It would not be unreasonable to summarize the whole game as "Complexity from minimalism". So, yes, maybe combat is not supposed to be so full of depth and complexity as, for example, Skyrim. However, it should at least offer some feeling of accomplishment. So, what we really need to define is what Minecraft combat should and shouldn't be.
First off, I think it should be avoidable. As you state, the game is intended to provide ways to keep mobs away. I agree that this is an essential part of Minecraft, and needs to be kept.
Secondly, however, combat is meant to make you want to build those defences. For that to happen, it must be challenging. You have to feel threatened enough to build barricades and set up lighting systems and all those things you talked about. So, mobs must take enough to beat that you don't feel like you're never in danger.
Following on that, combat needs to be engaging. If you make it challenging, but it isn't fun, then it weakens the entire experience. If you think about it, this is what makes or breaks any game. People are more forgiving of things if they had a good time doing them, but if something is taxing and unentertaining, then it ceases to be a game to them. Instead it becomes a chore, something begrudged whenever it comes up.
Of course, having fun doesn't mean much if you're left disappointed at the end. So, combat also needs to be satisfying. There are a few factors to this. Basically, though it boils down to a sense of accomplishment. For one thing, when you defeat a mob, it needs to feel like you defeated it. That means feeling like you actually did something meaningful, that your skills played a part in victory. Note that this isn't the same as being challenging, which is about making mobs actually threatening so that players will take them seriously. This is about giving a player a sense of having taken on a "worthy opponent"...and won. In essence, the player should feel like they won because of superior skill or preparation, as opposed to feeling that victory was simply a matter of luck or patience. Equally important, though, is instilling a feeling that winning the fight was rewarding. There are many ways to do this, and while mob drops are certainly a factor, let's be honest...no one is killing Zombies out of a burning desire for more rotten meat. To give an example of one of the more (relatively) subtle ways a game designer can add a sense of reward, look at the ways that enemies die. One of my favourites is in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, where enemies collapse, then explode in a flash of light with a little cloud of dark smoke. This is one of those little touches that you don't think too much about, but makes each victory feel just a little more satisfying.
One last thing. Following that reasoning, then, I think we can agree that by extension giving mobs countless ways to subvert or bypass your defences is something combat should not be. It deters from making defences, and generally makes combat feel more forced...and therefore less enjoyable. That's not to say that a few such behaviours can't be effective, particularly if situational, or when the behaviour itself has a counter. However, things like Zombies tearing down everything in their path and Creepers sacrificing themselves to make a path for other mobs are just counter-productive.
Also, yes, mods can move topics. My rules of game design topic was also moved to Discussion.
I am also unsatisfyed with current combat mechanics.One of the reason i play and like minecraft is freedom.But one of the biggest thing bothers me is this, when i play the game.As Anon said i dont feel the fighting atmosphere when i am fighting with a mob.But i really wonder if
they will add anything like this to minecraft.At first it was reasonable.Because minecraft wasnt that popular and out of budget to add things like this.But now its like the one of the most popular and most selling game.They really should improve the mechanics for the sake of us.Community accomplished this far to make budget for them.They should give us what we deserve in my opinion.
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NO Abbreviation,for who doesn't understand the above.
This is an Topic to disscuss the currect FLAWED combat system.
Ill tell you why:
it will never reach a fighting aspect of a quality reasonably comparable to any other game, including Terraria. The game wasn't designed with any aspect of combat in mind. It was designed as a building game, with a tacked on combat system forced on in order to expand on the fantasy genre niche Notch aimed to fill.
For the same reason online games generally have to be built from the ground up to be of a high quality, you can't make a game designed to be a building simulator and halfway through development try to attach a combat system to it, the combat aspect will end up half baked and uninteresting, as it did in Minecraft.
The reason Terraria succeeds in combat where Minecraft fails is because combat was designed, from the beginning of development, to be a major, important feature, and was treated as such. Weapons of reasonable variety, enemies with sufficiently intelligent AI, which were fun to fight, and well designed boss fights were design decisions which were pursued throughout the development process, and it payed off.
On the other hand, Minecraft put almost no effort into its combat system, and it shows. The fighting aspect is, laid bare, nothing more than repeatedly clicking to attack, and jumping around like a rabbit to get critical hits. Bows are much the same.
Enemies are uninteresting to fight and simply shamble towards you. There is no artificial intelligence programmed into them(For example,Team Fortress 2 bots are good at finding paths theirselfes and actually try to be challenging). Enemies have no pathfinding. A two block high wall will stop all non flying enemies (There are none in the overworld, so you can consider that effectively all enemies), and defeating the game's mascot, the creeper, memetically considered a harbringer of doom, is as easy as standing on your two block ledge, and hitting him with your sword and bow as he stands still. There are no attack animations, they either spawn their attack projectiles from hammerspace or touch you for damage. Effectively, combat is boring, lacks variety, and enemies are too stupid to be of any interest or difficulty. Now, could this be fixed? Yes. Will it be fixed? Most likely no,as nobody complains about it.
The main problem of why this will never really be fixed is lack of design focus. Minecraft has so many features clamoring for attention by players, many of them in direct contradiction to each other, that they try to balance focus on each mechanic, and it simply doesn't work. Pander to the engineers with their wiring system, wanting complexity to build insane contraptions, Pander to the casual players who want no complexity and only want a social media experience. Pander to the mob farmers who want monsters to die easily, Pander to the hardcore player, who wants to fight difficult, challenging, and long lived enemies. The list goes on and on. In this confusion, no one has an idea how important combat is supposed to be, and as far as I'm concerned, neither do the developers, because they seem to think throwing more monsters at the game like a village guard or boss fight is enough to fix anything.
I want to make this clear: Adding new enemies does not solve the problem. You cannot take a shoddily designed combat system, and simply throw more enemies at it to fix its problems. Without a complete overhaul of the entire combat system, enemy AI system, weapon system, and design focus, combat in minecraft will not improve, and I don't see this happening anytime soon.
Will this be hard?Yes.
But this will be big revamp to the entrie game.
NO,this ins't for suggestions about new effects,that is something else.
We are disscussing how the Combat System clould be improved.For me potion system is good form now.Besides adding new potions is like adding new mobs.Doesn't.Help.
EDIT:Also,according to Anon,we need to move this.
To Disscussion.
I don't know if mods can help me out,but oh well.
Monsters are there to provide danger. The primary way to overcome the danger they pose isn't supposed to be by fighting them, but by building- lighting up areas to prevent them from spawning, fences to keep them away, food to keep your health up, and iron armor if you've done enough mining to be able to afford it. A single zombie isn't intended to be a threat to an established player. Monsters are supposed to be dangerous when you're out in the middle of the wilderness at night without proper supplies. They're supposed to be dangerous when you're in an unlit cave, and a creeper can appear at any moment to blow you up and knock you into lava.
But still,you're denying one aspect important for any game.
Fun.
While you may be right,but is it fun to make a fortress,then make it impossible for mobs to even reach you?
Nope.Fighting is fun.This is what the players want,but currect combat system makes it dull and boring.
Then why don't you do what he said to avoid fighting?
Because that also makes the game Boring.Yeah,you might even like mining,but are there some hardocre players here and there.
Im trying to make both opitions you said feastible so other players might also like this.
thus greater profit.
I think a Monty Python sketch put it best: "That's as may be, but it's still a frog."
In other words, the fact that it's not a core feature is no excuse for something being poorly implemented. That's particularly so when it's something that comes up often, and mobs appear every night. More to the point, though, is the fact that with additions like parrying, critical hits, and enchanting, that excuse no longer holds as true as it once did. More of the focus of the game has been drawn onto combat, and while improvements have been made, it is still a flawed mechanic at its heart.
Now, I will be the first to say that simplicity is itself one of the core aspects of Minecraft. It would not be unreasonable to summarize the whole game as "Complexity from minimalism". So, yes, maybe combat is not supposed to be so full of depth and complexity as, for example, Skyrim. However, it should at least offer some feeling of accomplishment. So, what we really need to define is what Minecraft combat should and shouldn't be.
First off, I think it should be avoidable. As you state, the game is intended to provide ways to keep mobs away. I agree that this is an essential part of Minecraft, and needs to be kept.
Secondly, however, combat is meant to make you want to build those defences. For that to happen, it must be challenging. You have to feel threatened enough to build barricades and set up lighting systems and all those things you talked about. So, mobs must take enough to beat that you don't feel like you're never in danger.
Following on that, combat needs to be engaging. If you make it challenging, but it isn't fun, then it weakens the entire experience. If you think about it, this is what makes or breaks any game. People are more forgiving of things if they had a good time doing them, but if something is taxing and unentertaining, then it ceases to be a game to them. Instead it becomes a chore, something begrudged whenever it comes up.
Of course, having fun doesn't mean much if you're left disappointed at the end. So, combat also needs to be satisfying. There are a few factors to this. Basically, though it boils down to a sense of accomplishment. For one thing, when you defeat a mob, it needs to feel like you defeated it. That means feeling like you actually did something meaningful, that your skills played a part in victory. Note that this isn't the same as being challenging, which is about making mobs actually threatening so that players will take them seriously. This is about giving a player a sense of having taken on a "worthy opponent"...and won. In essence, the player should feel like they won because of superior skill or preparation, as opposed to feeling that victory was simply a matter of luck or patience. Equally important, though, is instilling a feeling that winning the fight was rewarding. There are many ways to do this, and while mob drops are certainly a factor, let's be honest...no one is killing Zombies out of a burning desire for more rotten meat. To give an example of one of the more (relatively) subtle ways a game designer can add a sense of reward, look at the ways that enemies die. One of my favourites is in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, where enemies collapse, then explode in a flash of light with a little cloud of dark smoke. This is one of those little touches that you don't think too much about, but makes each victory feel just a little more satisfying.
One last thing. Following that reasoning, then, I think we can agree that by extension giving mobs countless ways to subvert or bypass your defences is something combat should not be. It deters from making defences, and generally makes combat feel more forced...and therefore less enjoyable. That's not to say that a few such behaviours can't be effective, particularly if situational, or when the behaviour itself has a counter. However, things like Zombies tearing down everything in their path and Creepers sacrificing themselves to make a path for other mobs are just counter-productive.
Also, yes, mods can move topics. My rules of game design topic was also moved to Discussion.
they will add anything like this to minecraft.At first it was reasonable.Because minecraft wasnt that popular and out of budget to add things like this.But now its like the one of the most popular and most selling game.They really should improve the mechanics for the sake of us.Community accomplished this far to make budget for them.They should give us what we deserve in my opinion.