First of all, thank you for reading the post. I feel it is a reasonable, implementable idea. Simple explanation first, then those who disagree can feel free to read my rationale.
Simple explanation:
Add a sharpening stone that reduces the total uses of a tool by 2.5% of its possible uses (i.e.: 6 uses for iron, 40 uses for diamond) and increases its efficiency by 10% for 10% of the total life of the tool (i.e.: 1.1 x mining efficacy for 156 uses of a diamond tool)
Crafting: 2 smooth stone slabs = Whetstone
Whetstone + diamond = Diamond stone
Whetstones work on all tools except diamond but will essentially only be viable for iron (which is realistic).
Diamond stones work on all tools and must be used if you wish to sharpen diamond tools (which is also realistic).
Sharpening stones are not consumed in the process of sharpening. If they do have uses, those uses should last for a very long time (realistic).
Sharpening can be stacked to a maximum of 1.5 x mining speed. If a new sharpening is applied before the uses of a previous sharpening are used up, it will add reset the remaining sharpened status to maximum (156 "sharpened status" uses for diamond). If all uses are expended, sharpened status is completely lost.
The principle is sound, is consistent with the spirit of Minecraft (improve your world using basic resources) and adds a subtle and easily implemented dimension to the mining basics of the game.
It should not affect weapons because
1) that would be much more complicated
2) it could too easily upset the balance of the game
3) combat is less time dependent than mining
4) fighting would gain less from sharpening than tools would - if you are having difficulty with combat, I suggest making better armor (perhaps mining for some more diamond?)
Complicated rationale:
Why it should be added: This mechanic would allow an alternative method of increasing mining efficacy prior to establishing an enchanting table. It is not superfluous because you are not guaranteed efficacy with enchanting, and making diamond pickaxes until you get that enchantment is (I feel) wasteful and unbalanced. I also feel that adding different ways to reach a goal that have different risks and benefits makes for good game design (take Nethack or Deus Ex for example).
In essence it allows one to trade resources for time in a reasonable and balanced way, with minimal changes to the world and gameplay (vs adding 10 new ore types, tungsten tipped steel pickaxes, etc)
If this were added, you loose nothing by refusing to use the feature. You will be no worse off than you were before. If you choose to sharpen a tool, you must measure the risk of tool life loss with increased efficacy. The point of having a uses cap to the "sharpened" status is that in reality, sharpness does not last long when using a tool for a tough job. The duration of sharpness IRL is contingent upon the heat treatment of the steel, and I doubt anyone wants to add a quenching process to determine % austensitic or martensitic conversion of that tool you're crafting.
I suggested the modifiers that I did based upon my 10+ years of experience with blacksmithing, bladesmithing, woodworking and tool making/sharpening as hobbies. I have hand forged, ground, quenched, tempered, and polished scores of tools and knives (even a sword or two), and sharpened/modified many more than that.
I am more than open to suggestions about adjusting the modifiers, especially from people with a better understanding of game theory than I have (whether that was developed in school or just from playing a lot of games). I am starting to think that a 10% efficacy boost may be too overpowered, but it would take play testing to know for sure.
I am also open to unbiased discussion about potential problems of the idea. If you think it's stupid, explain your detailed rationale and what information you have used to arrive at said rationale. For my part, the idea is not my baby: it is just something I thought of that could add more depth to the game.
I'd place whetstone/ diamond stone. Hold down the right mouse button on it with the tool in hand -> New sharpening animation + sound. The tool loses durability and gains a level of the 'efficiency' enchantment with the amount of uses it's enchanted for in parenthesis (i.e 157 uses left). The enchantment is for the sake of not having to bother adding in a new "Sharpened" mechanic/effect.
Should breaking a block that the tool isn't meant for spend it's remaining uses faster, like regular durability?
I like the idea, but there should be a semi-random feature similar to Enchanting like the amount of uses lost on an iron pickaxe should, instead of losing six uses, lose a random number between four and eight (an example, not necessarily what to add).
Also, my thread on tungsten and steel is offended by your comments.
Lol. Thank you for the feedback. I like your idea about random durability loss. And please give my apologies to your thread. I don't disapprove of tungsten and steel being added - I think that would be a lovely addition. I just think it would be harder to implement and balance.
I'd place whetstone/ diamond stone. Hold down the right mouse button on it with the tool in hand -> New sharpening animation + sound. The tool loses durability and gains a level of the 'efficiency' enchantment with the amount of uses it's enchanted for in parenthesis (i.e 157 uses left). The enchantment is for the sake of not having to bother adding in a new "Sharpened" mechanic/effect.
Should breaking a block that the tool isn't meant for spend it's remaining uses faster, like regular durability?
I think making it enchanted could certainly save on coding time. I don't have any real problem with making a sharpening station. In fact, that might be a fabulous idea - you can sharpen it but it would take a little bit of time? Play testing could tell us.
I wonder if it should show sharpened uses remaining or not - does the mechanic need additional risk to balance it?
perhaps instead of it being an official enchantment it gains a buff which doesn't make the tool glow, but it does work the same way you imagined it. also for recipe I'd suggest four smooth stone in a square in the top rigt coner of the workbench the bottom left corner, left middle, and middle bottom would be wood planks. just think that would be a good recipe for a whestone. then to upgrade either replace the stone with diamond in the recipe or craft two diamonds with the whetstone.
I also feel you prove that not all new people are newbies. I salute you.
perhaps instead of it being an official enchantment it gains a buff which doesn't make the tool glow, but it does work the same way you imagined it. also for recipe I'd suggest four smooth stone in a square in the top rigt coner of the workbench the bottom left corner, left middle, and middle bottom would be wood planks. just think that would be a good recipe for a whestone. then to upgrade either replace the stone with diamond in the recipe or craft two diamonds with the whetstone.
I also feel you prove that not all new people are newbies. I salute you.
Jasonbot - Thanks, that is very kind of you. I seldom take anything up (especially games) without throwing myself into it, but I tend to shy away from gaming communities. I feel that I have made the right choice by engaging with this one.
My suggestion was just based on what I felt would most accurately represent the materials required to make sharpening stones in real life. Whetstones were traditionally harvested from a quarry of natural stone, sliced into pieces, and then shipped and sold. Nowadays you can still buy natural stones but I do not see any evidence that they are superior to bonded abrasives.
The fact that we have diamond tools means that we would need a diamond stone because diamond is the only practical way to sharpen diamond (to my knowledge). Typically they are sold as diamond dust bound to a steel plate in one of two flavors - monocrystaline or polycrystaline. So the idea was just to crush the diamond and sprinkle it on the stone, but maybe putting it on an iron ingot or two would be more realistic/balanced?
It's a reasonable idea, but in light of enchantments I don't think this has any place in Minecraft anymore. Also not all tools benefit from very sharp edges. That's more for weapons and yet it isn't going to be applied to weapons.
I can't support this because enchanting already fills the role.
It's a reasonable idea, but in light of enchantments I don't think this has any place in Minecraft anymore. Also not all tools benefit from very sharp edges. That's more for weapons and yet it isn't going to be applied to weapons.
I can't support this because enchanting already fills the role.
Thank you for your input. I value your opinion, but respectfully disagree with you about tools vs weapons (although you may be right about it being an unnecessary addition). Tools need as frequent sharpening as weapons or more frequent sharpening.
You are 100% right that not all tools benefit from a more acute angle on their edge, but that does not mean that they dont benefit from sharpening. By sharpening I am referring to eliminating the blunted portion of an edge or point to re-establish a relatively flat rather than narrowing the angle. You are also correct that not all tools benefit from sharpening - as an example, hammers work much much worse when they are sharpened (not trying to be sarcastic, thats the first example that came to mind).
Provided that the edge geometry is maintained, edged and pointed tools usually benefit from sharpening. From experience, I know that shovels, axes and hoes work much faster when they are sharp. I can test the pickaxe I have lying around somewhere and see if it works better sharp or not, but for now I found a tutorial on how to and the guy says they work better when they are sharp and when square edges are kept on the pointed end (idk about his credentials beyond being a professional sharpener).
Whether it adds enough to the game to warrant inclusion is a matter of debate. Personally, I feel it would. I also feel that apples added something to the game even though there were brown mushrooms. Nor am I against the addition of bread and other kinds of food that can be obtained in different ways.
Do you do much mining in SSP, and if so do you do it without mods that affect your mining speed? If so, what would make the idea viable in your eyes? If not, I understand why you are not behind this.
I do not use swords in combat on a regular basis, nor can I find historical documents indicating how frequently they were sharpened. Despite being poorly understood, even by many experts of various fields (the kind of folks who state that swords weighed 12 pounds... period swords that weigh more than 3 lbs are very rare) I think it is reasonable to feel that they were not sharpened as frequently as tools were for a few reasons. One of these reasons being that they were not used as often as tools were.
The biggest reason to sharpen a sword would be to repair damage or restore an edge, but to maintain edge geometry, the entire flat of the blade is worked down to restore that angle. Hence you can loose a significant amount of sword when you sharpen it.
Anyhow, I dont know why people seem to think sharpening should be for swords but not tools... I have done a lot of bladesmithing, and it just doesn't make sense to me that sword sharpening would happen more often than tool sharpening.
I also don't see too much being added to the game by making it for weapons. So enemies die faster? They die pretty quick already. They even get knocked back enough that you can kill things with empty hands and not take any damage.
I agree with ChadGarion25. Pickaxes and hatchets wouldn't benefit from a sharpening as much as a sword or arrows would. I do not, however, like the idea of the sharpening wheel giving the tool an enchantment.
-As a side note, I think it would be cool if the wheel was run off of redstone.
I agree with ChadGarion25. Pickaxes and hatchets wouldn't benefit from a sharpening as much as a sword or arrows would. I do not, however, like the idea of the sharpening wheel giving the tool an enchantment.
-As a side note, I think it would be cool if the wheel was run off of redstone.
Oh well. I guess it wouldn't add that much to the game.
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Simple explanation:
Add a sharpening stone that reduces the total uses of a tool by 2.5% of its possible uses (i.e.: 6 uses for iron, 40 uses for diamond) and increases its efficiency by 10% for 10% of the total life of the tool (i.e.: 1.1 x mining efficacy for 156 uses of a diamond tool)
Crafting: 2 smooth stone slabs = Whetstone
Whetstone + diamond = Diamond stone
Whetstones work on all tools except diamond but will essentially only be viable for iron (which is realistic).
Diamond stones work on all tools and must be used if you wish to sharpen diamond tools (which is also realistic).
Sharpening stones are not consumed in the process of sharpening. If they do have uses, those uses should last for a very long time (realistic).
Sharpening can be stacked to a maximum of 1.5 x mining speed. If a new sharpening is applied before the uses of a previous sharpening are used up, it will add reset the remaining sharpened status to maximum (156 "sharpened status" uses for diamond). If all uses are expended, sharpened status is completely lost.
The principle is sound, is consistent with the spirit of Minecraft (improve your world using basic resources) and adds a subtle and easily implemented dimension to the mining basics of the game.
It should not affect weapons because
1) that would be much more complicated
2) it could too easily upset the balance of the game
3) combat is less time dependent than mining
4) fighting would gain less from sharpening than tools would - if you are having difficulty with combat, I suggest making better armor (perhaps mining for some more diamond?)
Complicated rationale:
Why it should be added: This mechanic would allow an alternative method of increasing mining efficacy prior to establishing an enchanting table. It is not superfluous because you are not guaranteed efficacy with enchanting, and making diamond pickaxes until you get that enchantment is (I feel) wasteful and unbalanced. I also feel that adding different ways to reach a goal that have different risks and benefits makes for good game design (take Nethack or Deus Ex for example).
In essence it allows one to trade resources for time in a reasonable and balanced way, with minimal changes to the world and gameplay (vs adding 10 new ore types, tungsten tipped steel pickaxes, etc)
If this were added, you loose nothing by refusing to use the feature. You will be no worse off than you were before. If you choose to sharpen a tool, you must measure the risk of tool life loss with increased efficacy. The point of having a uses cap to the "sharpened" status is that in reality, sharpness does not last long when using a tool for a tough job. The duration of sharpness IRL is contingent upon the heat treatment of the steel, and I doubt anyone wants to add a quenching process to determine % austensitic or martensitic conversion of that tool you're crafting.
I suggested the modifiers that I did based upon my 10+ years of experience with blacksmithing, bladesmithing, woodworking and tool making/sharpening as hobbies. I have hand forged, ground, quenched, tempered, and polished scores of tools and knives (even a sword or two), and sharpened/modified many more than that.
I am more than open to suggestions about adjusting the modifiers, especially from people with a better understanding of game theory than I have (whether that was developed in school or just from playing a lot of games). I am starting to think that a 10% efficacy boost may be too overpowered, but it would take play testing to know for sure.
I am also open to unbiased discussion about potential problems of the idea. If you think it's stupid, explain your detailed rationale and what information you have used to arrive at said rationale. For my part, the idea is not my baby: it is just something I thought of that could add more depth to the game.
Lets discuss!
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Curse PremiumI'd place whetstone/ diamond stone. Hold down the right mouse button on it with the tool in hand -> New sharpening animation + sound. The tool loses durability and gains a level of the 'efficiency' enchantment with the amount of uses it's enchanted for in parenthesis (i.e 157 uses left). The enchantment is for the sake of not having to bother adding in a new "Sharpened" mechanic/effect.
Should breaking a block that the tool isn't meant for spend it's remaining uses faster, like regular durability?
Lol. Thank you for the feedback. I like your idea about random durability loss. And please give my apologies to your thread. I don't disapprove of tungsten and steel being added - I think that would be a lovely addition. I just think it would be harder to implement and balance.
I think making it enchanted could certainly save on coding time. I don't have any real problem with making a sharpening station. In fact, that might be a fabulous idea - you can sharpen it but it would take a little bit of time? Play testing could tell us.
I wonder if it should show sharpened uses remaining or not - does the mechanic need additional risk to balance it?
I also feel you prove that not all new people are newbies. I salute you.
Jasonbot - Thanks, that is very kind of you. I seldom take anything up (especially games) without throwing myself into it, but I tend to shy away from gaming communities. I feel that I have made the right choice by engaging with this one.
My suggestion was just based on what I felt would most accurately represent the materials required to make sharpening stones in real life. Whetstones were traditionally harvested from a quarry of natural stone, sliced into pieces, and then shipped and sold. Nowadays you can still buy natural stones but I do not see any evidence that they are superior to bonded abrasives.
The fact that we have diamond tools means that we would need a diamond stone because diamond is the only practical way to sharpen diamond (to my knowledge). Typically they are sold as diamond dust bound to a steel plate in one of two flavors - monocrystaline or polycrystaline. So the idea was just to crush the diamond and sprinkle it on the stone, but maybe putting it on an iron ingot or two would be more realistic/balanced?
I can't support this because enchanting already fills the role.
Thank you for your input. I value your opinion, but respectfully disagree with you about tools vs weapons (although you may be right about it being an unnecessary addition). Tools need as frequent sharpening as weapons or more frequent sharpening.
You are 100% right that not all tools benefit from a more acute angle on their edge, but that does not mean that they dont benefit from sharpening. By sharpening I am referring to eliminating the blunted portion of an edge or point to re-establish a relatively flat rather than narrowing the angle. You are also correct that not all tools benefit from sharpening - as an example, hammers work much much worse when they are sharpened (not trying to be sarcastic, thats the first example that came to mind).
Provided that the edge geometry is maintained, edged and pointed tools usually benefit from sharpening. From experience, I know that shovels, axes and hoes work much faster when they are sharp. I can test the pickaxe I have lying around somewhere and see if it works better sharp or not, but for now I found a tutorial on how to and the guy says they work better when they are sharp and when square edges are kept on the pointed end (idk about his credentials beyond being a professional sharpener).
Whether it adds enough to the game to warrant inclusion is a matter of debate. Personally, I feel it would. I also feel that apples added something to the game even though there were brown mushrooms. Nor am I against the addition of bread and other kinds of food that can be obtained in different ways.
Do you do much mining in SSP, and if so do you do it without mods that affect your mining speed? If so, what would make the idea viable in your eyes? If not, I understand why you are not behind this.
I do not use swords in combat on a regular basis, nor can I find historical documents indicating how frequently they were sharpened. Despite being poorly understood, even by many experts of various fields (the kind of folks who state that swords weighed 12 pounds... period swords that weigh more than 3 lbs are very rare) I think it is reasonable to feel that they were not sharpened as frequently as tools were for a few reasons. One of these reasons being that they were not used as often as tools were.
The biggest reason to sharpen a sword would be to repair damage or restore an edge, but to maintain edge geometry, the entire flat of the blade is worked down to restore that angle. Hence you can loose a significant amount of sword when you sharpen it.
Anyhow, I dont know why people seem to think sharpening should be for swords but not tools... I have done a lot of bladesmithing, and it just doesn't make sense to me that sword sharpening would happen more often than tool sharpening.
I also don't see too much being added to the game by making it for weapons. So enemies die faster? They die pretty quick already. They even get knocked back enough that you can kill things with empty hands and not take any damage.
-As a side note, I think it would be cool if the wheel was run off of redstone.
Oh well. I guess it wouldn't add that much to the game.