((Meta, or more commonly known as Metagaming, is using OOC information. Get it right next time.))
Well, I'm sorry for thee confusion, the way I always hear my friends and others refer to meta as what's most over powered, or what the best strategy or item in a game is. I get this term mostly from games like League Of Legends. IE; "Flash is meta when playing LoL, everyone uses It!"
Yeah, this is just overcomplicated for a sandbox. There actually is a surprising number of unique elements in Minecraft combat (name another game in which jumping up and down trying to hit enemies as you fall is the recommended strategy), so I just think that all this attempting to balance out combat even more like this is the muthacluckin Elder Scrolls is totally unnecessary.
However, perhaps it would be smart to have it that you are weighed down and slowed down when you are wearing more armor, not better armor. So that in full armor, you are at 80% of your unarmored speed, but that you are no slower in Diamond Armor than in Leather armor.
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Thoughts? Suggestions? Random acts of petty fanboyish hatred?
I, like others, am all for it for better combat. Minecraft does need to improve that significantly.
But I'm not sure about your idea, though it sounds great. What about progression? The point of having tiers is that you get a stronger weapon the longer you mine and fight mobs to get EXP for enchantments. This gives long-time players in SMP a feel that they are stronger than others because they have been playing longer. If all I really needed to beat someone at combat is a wooden sword and leather armor, then why would I need Iron and diamond for armor and weapons for?
I think that's too much complication for a game that isn't combat based. Minecraft is a building sandbox game, combat is just something to add action to that.
No support. Go play an RPG.
So you want them to just tunnel vision into one aspect of the game while a lot of others exist currently? Why strip a game of its extra features just because you say it *should* be based on something else.
I just had a thought considering the movement loss associated with equipping armor.
I know that a key point against it is because you can carry a lot of weight in your inventory. Well if this were to be implemented I don't think weight entirely would be the reason to slow the player down. Armor decreases the mobility of the person wearing it. It is bulky.
You couldn't sprint with armor on in real life unless it was light armor and you wouldn't be able to sprint very long before being out of breath. If anything sprinting should be reduced based on armor other than leather, because leather isn't armor as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think it should be any different among the tiers (except chainmail and leather). My reasoning is that gold is overly heavy and the tiers' weight has no relationship to the durability or strength of the armor. It's more the composition of the atoms that matters. The weight difference isn't going to noticably change from material to material except gold and gold armor is already nerfed enough.
This change would give lighter armor a benefit (more lenient sprint/faster sprint?) than heavier armor.
Also I should note that lighter tiered armor of the same type would always be preferred over the slower version. It would also be kind of pointless since there is so little change between absorption rates in the current armor system. Movement speed wouldn't be enough to balance the system, as a lightly armored person of any tier would automatically have the advantage over the slower higher tiers. So why even use the higher tiers?
It would just end up being light tiered players against light tiered players. The difference between light tier, middle tier, and heavy tier would be questionable as well. Diamond armor only buffs some of the damage currently, there is little wiggle room to add a lesser tiered version for each type of armorset and also add a higher tiered one. If they did add a higher tierer armor version, would it imbalance PvE interactions? It would mean that you're pretty much absorbing any amount of damage 90 percent of the mobs can give you on hard mode and that's before you enchant it. The only crux is that you move slower and that would make it more obnoxious to use. It wouldn't deter people from making themselves invincible. It would just promote them to just stand in one place and kill things that got near them with their broadsword.
The OP needs to explain how this idea could be balanced in both PvE and PvP interactions and come up with a reasonable way to craft each tier.
Edit: OP you need to change your numbers for broadsword damage. It can't do 14 hearts of damage period. It's way overpowered. It should be 8 hearts max, and even then this would destroy any unarmored player regardless of how slow you move. It's not like everyone is pro at sprinting.
I suggest that you work out this idea and show how damage would be applied in every tier.
This is a terrible idea. It doesn't make combat any more interesting, since armor is pretty useless. The biggest hitting things in the game ignore armor, and everything else is easily avoidable. To make combat interesting, there need to be threats other than monsters running into you or shooting simple projectiles.
Better idea for making concept, along the same lines: simply add a slot for a charm that has durability attached to it. The item is crafted by the player, and consumes durability based on the benefit provided. You could have one that adds 1 shield of armor (and degrades when you get hit), another that increases run speed (and degrades over time), another that absorbs creeper explosions (1 absorb per charm), ones that reduce fall damage (degrades when you fall), etc. This would give you a diverse breadth of different problem solving approaches without needing to make an overly complex ball and chain system to punish you for using armor that you don't need to begin with.
This is a terrible idea. It doesn't make combat any more interesting, since armor is pretty useless. The biggest hitting things in the game ignore armor, and everything else is easily avoidable. To make combat interesting, there need to be threats other than monsters running into you or shooting simple projectiles.
Better idea for making concept, along the same lines: simply add a slot for a charm that has durability attached to it. The item is crafted by the player, and consumes durability based on the benefit provided. You could have one that adds 1 shield of armor (and degrades when you get hit), another that increases run speed (and degrades over time), another that absorbs creeper explosions (1 absorb per charm), ones that reduce fall damage (degrades when you fall), etc. This would give you a diverse breadth of different problem solving approaches without needing to make an overly complex ball and chain system to punish you for using armor that you don't need to begin with.
... How does this idea make armor useless? It doesn't make armor useless at all. It just removes "god-tier" armor from the game.
Your idea is identical to enchantments as well, just a different method to get them.
... How does this idea make armor useless? It doesn't make armor useless at all. It just removes "god-tier" armor from the game.
Armor above light would be useless, because you'd get hit more often. You're choosing between being hit by a monster for a small amount or just dodging the hit and taking no damage. Why would you choose to mitigate a portion of completely avoidable damage? What's better, taking half damage from creepers or having 50% more time to get out of the explosion?
Not to mention the obnoxiousness of being slowed while exploring (unless you decide to just carry two sets of armor around). A set that slows movement speed would only make sense were there specific places loaded with monsters where your only goal was combat with monsters whose attacks you can't usually avoid.
Your idea is identical to enchantments as well, just a different method to get them.
In a very vague sense, maybe. These would be independent, defensive style enchantments that decay. Enchanting armor with an effect only disappears with that armor; that's why an armor enchant that makes you immune to creeper explosions would be massively overpowered. But a non-stackable charm that takes up a gear slot that can make you immune to one blast? I know I'd carry 2-3 of those around for when I'm mining or breaking into caverns with piles of dark ledges above me. In other situations (like wandering around on the surface), such a buff is worthless and I'd trade it out. You could get charms that provide the armor boost or a speed boost, providing the same operational difference between the heavy/light armor offered by the OP while offering more options without needing to gut the entire existing tiered armor system.
Armor above light would be useless, because you'd get hit more often. You're choosing between being hit by a monster for a small amount or just dodging the hit and taking no damage. Why would you choose to mitigate a portion of completely avoidable damage? What's better, taking half damage from creepers or having 50% more time to get out of the explosion?
Not to mention the obnoxiousness of being slowed while exploring (unless you decide to just carry two sets of armor around). A set that slows movement speed would only make sense were there specific places loaded with monsters where your only goal was combat with monsters whose attacks you can't usually avoid.
In a very vague sense, maybe. These would be independent, defensive style enchantments that decay. Enchanting armor with an effect only disappears with that armor; that's why an armor enchant that makes you immune to creeper explosions would be massively overpowered. But a non-stackable charm that takes up a gear slot that can make you immune to one blast? I know I'd carry 2-3 of those around for when I'm mining or breaking into caverns with piles of dark ledges above me. In other situations (like wandering around on the surface), such a buff is worthless and I'd trade it out. You could get charms that provide the armor boost or a speed boost, providing the same operational difference between the heavy/light armor offered by the OP while offering more options without needing to gut the entire existing tiered armor system.
This suggestion, from what I can see, is primarily about multiplayer. In single player, then heavier armors would be overall useless.
In multilplayer, however, heavy armor would be extremely useful when defending a base or needing to tank your way past enemy defenses, when light armor just will not suffice.
In multilplayer, however, heavy armor would be extremely useful when defending a base or needing to tank your way past enemy defenses, when light armor just will not suffice.
The problem, again, is that your window of vulnerability increases. OK, you take half damage from arrows. Cool. But you now get hit with twice as many arrows. And once you close, you can't do anything because they can run circles around you. The hilarious part is that this doesn't even change the initial problem trying to be addressed: people with full diamond on PvP servers being miles ahead of new players. They'll still have full diamond, and there's nothing you can do about it that you can't already do about it: simply outplaying a better geared person.
I think that's too much complication for a game that isn't combat based. Minecraft is a building sandbox game, combat is just something to add action to that.
No support. Go play an RPG.
In case you didn't notice, Minecraft has been increasingly updated with RPG elements.
And the combat either needs to be improved like this or REMOVED because it doesn't add action at all when there's barely a trace of strategy or challenge.
I will remain firmly against anything that reduces player movement speed in Minecraft.
Shorter sprinting? Disabling sprinting? Maybe. Would have to see a snapshot or a mod to test the environment's feel. (Or simply trust in Jens' judgement)
Personally? I feel the combat system is easy because its simple. An entire mechanical overhaul; or enemy overhaul designed around the current system are really the only two options. (That I can see)
We're slowly moving toward the latter; with the AI improvements going in, and I for one couldn't be happier.
Although admittedly I've always had an interest in the swords+, and shield mods. More options just seem fun to me.
Also, I'm going to share something that won't leave my mind since reading this thread's title:
So Minecraft shouldn't compete with Terraria? I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but at least make it competitive in all aspects with it's competitors.
Every time someone compares Minecraft and Terraria as though they are direct competitors, I want to cry.
Two different games, two different styles, two different purposes. Apples and oranges.
I think that's too much complication for a game that isn't combat based. Minecraft is a building sandbox game, combat is just something to add action to that.
No support. Go play an RPG.
This. This is Minecraft, not Skyrim. I'd suggest that people who feel the need to turn this game into something it's not, please go play a different game.
No, you ******** minecraft is not a "building sandbox game" it was in indev/infdev, but now look at it.. SURVIVAL.
Survival doesn't have to mean "focused on advanced combat-oriented mechanics". What this thread is proposing is to turn a "survival" game into a "battle" game. Not the same thing. This isn't Halo any more than it is Skyrim. It's Minecraft, and it's unique. Let's try to keep it that way.
And the combat either needs to be improved like this or REMOVED because it doesn't add action at all when there's barely a trace of strategy or challenge.
Doesn't add anything at all?? Really? So you notice NO difference AT ALL between playing on peaceful, and playing on Hard?
Please, just stop. The combat system in this game is perfect for the game's overall style of play. Sure, there are some minor tweaks that could be made, but adding the levels of complexity and annoyance that this thread proposes are totally unnecessary, and would greatly detract from what Minecraft currently is.
Peaceful is about as far as the sandbox elements in Minecraft survival go. If you consider Minecraft as a sandbog game, then might as well remove any combat from it, because the combat is an RPG element. Minecraft has all of the elements of an RPG, it is just loosely structured like a sandbox.
You obviously don't know what a simple non-turn based RPG is if you can confidently say that Minecraft isn't one. The one's you are comparing Minecraft to as full RPGs. Minecraft is the bare bones version of those games.
Besides there is always room for checks and balances. There should be a larger variety of weapons and each weapon should have a strength or a reason to use it over another weapon. It would enhance gameplay in general.
It also fits the sandbox part of the game. Minecraft should have a decent amount of options in order to fit different personal tastes and preferrences. It is not sandboxish to just have a bare minimum for weapon choices and the potential for combat with these weapons is limited. Minecraft needs to have a variety of ways to fight mobs and players. Minecraft needs to encourage people to think creatively when approaching an obstacle.
We should be able to choose how we want to fight. The current combat system does nothing but force us all to fight the same limited way and it is really lackluster and boring.
We should be able to choose how we want to fight. The current combat system does nothing but force us all to fight the same limited way and it is really lackluster and boring.
You can already choose how you want to fight. You can choose to play a different game.
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Weren't you the exact same person that replied to me when I made that thread?
Well, I'm sorry for thee confusion, the way I always hear my friends and others refer to meta as what's most over powered, or what the best strategy or item in a game is. I get this term mostly from games like League Of Legends. IE; "Flash is meta when playing LoL, everyone uses It!"
Hey.
However, perhaps it would be smart to have it that you are weighed down and slowed down when you are wearing more armor, not better armor. So that in full armor, you are at 80% of your unarmored speed, but that you are no slower in Diamond Armor than in Leather armor.
But I'm not sure about your idea, though it sounds great. What about progression? The point of having tiers is that you get a stronger weapon the longer you mine and fight mobs to get EXP for enchantments. This gives long-time players in SMP a feel that they are stronger than others because they have been playing longer. If all I really needed to beat someone at combat is a wooden sword and leather armor, then why would I need Iron and diamond for armor and weapons for?
So you want them to just tunnel vision into one aspect of the game while a lot of others exist currently? Why strip a game of its extra features just because you say it *should* be based on something else.
What thread? I don't remember it, or you, so I probably wasn't.
I know that a key point against it is because you can carry a lot of weight in your inventory. Well if this were to be implemented I don't think weight entirely would be the reason to slow the player down. Armor decreases the mobility of the person wearing it. It is bulky.
You couldn't sprint with armor on in real life unless it was light armor and you wouldn't be able to sprint very long before being out of breath. If anything sprinting should be reduced based on armor other than leather, because leather isn't armor as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think it should be any different among the tiers (except chainmail and leather). My reasoning is that gold is overly heavy and the tiers' weight has no relationship to the durability or strength of the armor. It's more the composition of the atoms that matters. The weight difference isn't going to noticably change from material to material except gold and gold armor is already nerfed enough.
This change would give lighter armor a benefit (more lenient sprint/faster sprint?) than heavier armor.
Also I should note that lighter tiered armor of the same type would always be preferred over the slower version. It would also be kind of pointless since there is so little change between absorption rates in the current armor system. Movement speed wouldn't be enough to balance the system, as a lightly armored person of any tier would automatically have the advantage over the slower higher tiers. So why even use the higher tiers?
It would just end up being light tiered players against light tiered players. The difference between light tier, middle tier, and heavy tier would be questionable as well. Diamond armor only buffs some of the damage currently, there is little wiggle room to add a lesser tiered version for each type of armorset and also add a higher tiered one. If they did add a higher tierer armor version, would it imbalance PvE interactions? It would mean that you're pretty much absorbing any amount of damage 90 percent of the mobs can give you on hard mode and that's before you enchant it. The only crux is that you move slower and that would make it more obnoxious to use. It wouldn't deter people from making themselves invincible. It would just promote them to just stand in one place and kill things that got near them with their broadsword.
The OP needs to explain how this idea could be balanced in both PvE and PvP interactions and come up with a reasonable way to craft each tier.
Edit: OP you need to change your numbers for broadsword damage. It can't do 14 hearts of damage period. It's way overpowered. It should be 8 hearts max, and even then this would destroy any unarmored player regardless of how slow you move. It's not like everyone is pro at sprinting.
I suggest that you work out this idea and show how damage would be applied in every tier.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155932
Crates
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239467
Item Scrolling
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174539
Better idea for making concept, along the same lines: simply add a slot for a charm that has durability attached to it. The item is crafted by the player, and consumes durability based on the benefit provided. You could have one that adds 1 shield of armor (and degrades when you get hit), another that increases run speed (and degrades over time), another that absorbs creeper explosions (1 absorb per charm), ones that reduce fall damage (degrades when you fall), etc. This would give you a diverse breadth of different problem solving approaches without needing to make an overly complex ball and chain system to punish you for using armor that you don't need to begin with.
... How does this idea make armor useless? It doesn't make armor useless at all. It just removes "god-tier" armor from the game.
Your idea is identical to enchantments as well, just a different method to get them.
Armor above light would be useless, because you'd get hit more often. You're choosing between being hit by a monster for a small amount or just dodging the hit and taking no damage. Why would you choose to mitigate a portion of completely avoidable damage? What's better, taking half damage from creepers or having 50% more time to get out of the explosion?
Not to mention the obnoxiousness of being slowed while exploring (unless you decide to just carry two sets of armor around). A set that slows movement speed would only make sense were there specific places loaded with monsters where your only goal was combat with monsters whose attacks you can't usually avoid.
In a very vague sense, maybe. These would be independent, defensive style enchantments that decay. Enchanting armor with an effect only disappears with that armor; that's why an armor enchant that makes you immune to creeper explosions would be massively overpowered. But a non-stackable charm that takes up a gear slot that can make you immune to one blast? I know I'd carry 2-3 of those around for when I'm mining or breaking into caverns with piles of dark ledges above me. In other situations (like wandering around on the surface), such a buff is worthless and I'd trade it out. You could get charms that provide the armor boost or a speed boost, providing the same operational difference between the heavy/light armor offered by the OP while offering more options without needing to gut the entire existing tiered armor system.
This suggestion, from what I can see, is primarily about multiplayer. In single player, then heavier armors would be overall useless.
In multilplayer, however, heavy armor would be extremely useful when defending a base or needing to tank your way past enemy defenses, when light armor just will not suffice.
GODDAMN IT
STUPID GENDERFLIP VIRUS
Since Minecraft is both a single player and a multiplayer game, any suggestions for one impact the other.
The problem, again, is that your window of vulnerability increases. OK, you take half damage from arrows. Cool. But you now get hit with twice as many arrows. And once you close, you can't do anything because they can run circles around you. The hilarious part is that this doesn't even change the initial problem trying to be addressed: people with full diamond on PvP servers being miles ahead of new players. They'll still have full diamond, and there's nothing you can do about it that you can't already do about it: simply outplaying a better geared person.
In case you didn't notice, Minecraft has been increasingly updated with RPG elements.
And the combat either needs to be improved like this or REMOVED because it doesn't add action at all when there's barely a trace of strategy or challenge.
It wouldn't be an improvement in any way, shape, or form.
Shorter sprinting? Disabling sprinting? Maybe. Would have to see a snapshot or a mod to test the environment's feel. (Or simply trust in Jens' judgement)
Personally? I feel the combat system is easy because its simple. An entire mechanical overhaul; or enemy overhaul designed around the current system are really the only two options. (That I can see)
We're slowly moving toward the latter; with the AI improvements going in, and I for one couldn't be happier.
Although admittedly I've always had an interest in the swords+, and shield mods. More options just seem fun to me.
Also, I'm going to share something that won't leave my mind since reading this thread's title:
Every time someone compares Minecraft and Terraria as though they are direct competitors, I want to cry.
Two different games, two different styles, two different purposes. Apples and oranges.
This. This is Minecraft, not Skyrim. I'd suggest that people who feel the need to turn this game into something it's not, please go play a different game.
Moderators, please move this to "Suggestions" so it can die a painful death there.
Survival doesn't have to mean "focused on advanced combat-oriented mechanics". What this thread is proposing is to turn a "survival" game into a "battle" game. Not the same thing. This isn't Halo any more than it is Skyrim. It's Minecraft, and it's unique. Let's try to keep it that way.
Doesn't add anything at all?? Really? So you notice NO difference AT ALL between playing on peaceful, and playing on Hard?
Please, just stop. The combat system in this game is perfect for the game's overall style of play. Sure, there are some minor tweaks that could be made, but adding the levels of complexity and annoyance that this thread proposes are totally unnecessary, and would greatly detract from what Minecraft currently is.
You obviously don't know what a simple non-turn based RPG is if you can confidently say that Minecraft isn't one. The one's you are comparing Minecraft to as full RPGs. Minecraft is the bare bones version of those games.
Besides there is always room for checks and balances. There should be a larger variety of weapons and each weapon should have a strength or a reason to use it over another weapon. It would enhance gameplay in general.
It also fits the sandbox part of the game. Minecraft should have a decent amount of options in order to fit different personal tastes and preferrences. It is not sandboxish to just have a bare minimum for weapon choices and the potential for combat with these weapons is limited. Minecraft needs to have a variety of ways to fight mobs and players. Minecraft needs to encourage people to think creatively when approaching an obstacle.
We should be able to choose how we want to fight. The current combat system does nothing but force us all to fight the same limited way and it is really lackluster and boring.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155932
Crates
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=239467
Item Scrolling
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=174539
You can already choose how you want to fight. You can choose to play a different game.