Minecraft Forums

Right now when you're underwater:

You can swim freely, you slowly run out of air bubbles (drowning if you do not escape quickly), and you move more slowly.

There are four states of the Minecrafter related to water:
1. Wading (Walking in 1-depth water)
2. Underwater Walking (Lose air)
3. Surface Swimming
4. Underwater Swimming (Lose air)

When Wading, you move slowly, and that's good enough.
When entirely underwater, however, anything you do with your upper body is also slowed considerably.
When not standing on solid ground, there is nothing against which you can brace yourself for the most part.

As a result, when in states 2, 3, and 4, a number of penalties should be accrued, and this is my suggestion.


No Digging
When you are underwater in a tunnel and drowning, no longer shall you be able to dig yourself an air hole (this may or may not be fixed with the addition of finite water). It's hard enough trying to break through anything solid with a pickaxe on land, in air -- can you imagine trying to do it whilst keeping yourself aloft, through viscous water, and holding your breath? My friend, it would be folly to attempt this task in real life, and so too should it be in Minecraft. Digging should probably be allowed, though, if you are not totally submerged -- it should be slow, however.

A water-filled moat would be most effective at repelling tunneling intruders.

Effects of NO DIGGING IN WATER:
Air Pockets cannot be dug by you, they must already exist.
Resultantly, Underwater Cave Systems are much more difficult to explore.
Water-Filled Moats (and other water-based defenses) are much more effective at repelling intruders.
Floods are a much more effective weapon against those underground, in caverns.
Water-Filled Traps can be made, and will be effective at trapping people (at least for some time, if you are able to dig but slowly).
Underground bases will be dangerous! They can be flooded to great danger, now -- a price to pay for the stealth you gain, and the minimalness of the material it demands.
Exploring a flooded base will be much more interesting -- currently it would be very easy.
Now, a flooded base would take a bit of planning if you wished to recover lost items.

-------

Slow, Weak Attacking
In the same vein, trying to make any attack through slow water does not work well. It resists all motions you may attempt to make -- attacks should be slow and weak, or even entirely ineffective underwater.

Ranged Attacks Dampened
Though arrows are much more hydrodynamic than you or your weapons, they should be slowed upon travelling too far into water.


This brings me to a second notion to consider.

If there are to be some form of personal specialization (in terms of stats, abilities, levels, classes, et cetera), one could (possibly) be able to acquire the ability to move and act more freely when in water.

If specialization is done only through equipment, there should not be some kind of armour/wetsuit thing you can wear to grant yourself freedom of movement (unless you're going to go into magical stuff). However, there might be a specialized type of tool that is less effective in general, but more effective than regular equipment underwater.


Finally, armour should be nasty stuff in terms of trying to swim.

Lighter armour would soak and weigh you down;
Heavier armour is heavy, you'd drown;
Unequip that armour or you will frown
and shall never again return to town.


Some quotes which held useful information, so you don't have to read through the whole thread.

Quote from Levinous »

Digging out an air pocket is far too easy to do, and it eliminates the intended danger of going underwater.

Quote from Arbiter »

While not being able to dig underwater would be more realistic and increase the danger of travelling underwater, it would also make exploring long underwater cave systems near impossible. The idea of slowing (but not removing) underwater digging and attacking is probably the best.

Quote from ShadowDusk »

just want to post this
when it goes multiplayer what if a greafer floods your base then you would be trapped and die
this is why we need to dig underwater

Quote from Levinous »

But that would only happen if everyone built their bases underwater/underground.

With the digging-out-an-air-pocket scenario, it came to me that, in reality, air wouldn't spawn in the place you dug out, and would just be more water. But that goes into water pressure and everything... Water physics shouldn't really get involved until after there's finite water!

no answers yet?

i think thats a good idea.

you really would have to watch out when diving through caves.

Just sounds like a hindrance that really isn't needed. The arrows one is the only one that makes sense.

love the poem.

I agree with the digging-air-pocket-underwater prevention part. Digging out an air pocket is far too easy to do, and it eliminates the intended danger of going underwater.

As it stands, going underwater means nothing unless you are trying to dive down in the middle of a very very large body of water.

What kind of sense does it make to swim down next to land, digging air pockets out along the way?

I'll tell you: nonsense. Haha.


For the most part, although simplified, Minecraft Survival seems to want to reflect reality. When you go diving underwater, there is an inherent danger of you running out of air. As much as any of us likes staying underwater in caves and digging out air pockets, it doesn't make any sense -- and if this tactic were to be removed, it would make floods and waterlogged areas all the more exciting.


Thanks for the feedback, all :smile.gif:

Quote from Zuriki »

Balance > Reality

What is being "balanced"?

Quote from Droqen »

and if this tactic were to be removed, it would make floods and waterlogged areas all the more exciting.

Right now underwater areas aren't that interesting, and are easy to explore. Water is not something you can really use to your advantage at all, and it isn't something you will be able to use to hinder other players once multiplayer rolls in.

Also, a fortress on an island would just be that much more impenetrable.

What is being "balanced"?

It is good rule of thumb. When deciding on content for a game, gameplay and balance are of greater importance than realism.

Quote from madk »

It is good rule of thumb. When deciding on content for a game, gameplay and balance are of greater importance than realism.

No, I mean, what are we balancing here?

It's the global workings of water.

Usually when you claim balance is important, there is actually some notion of balancing things. What details related to my suggestion would threaten balance? What balance would it threaten? Give me an example, or something.


[ Also, obviously gameplay and balance are of greater importance than realism, and I understand this very well. ]

For the most part, although simplified, Minecraft Survival seems to want to reflect reality. When you go diving underwater, there is an inherent danger of you running out of air. As much as any of us likes staying underwater in caves and digging out air pockets, it doesn't make any sense -- and if this tactic were to be removed, it would make floods and waterlogged areas all the more exciting.

While I do think that digging should be much more difficult (though not impossible) when submerged, realism is an ineffective argument when discussing a game like Minecraft.

Last edited by madk (Tomorrow 14:13:37)

Quote from Droqen »

Quote from madk »

It is good rule of thumb. When deciding on content for a game, gameplay and balance are of greater importance than realism.

No, I mean, what are we balancing here?

It's the global workings of water.

Balance of Difficulty to Enjoyment, balances of certain game mechanics making one way of playing easier, etc.

It doesn't mean it's worthless to bring up.

Realism, while not a core component in Minecraft, is a significant driving force for many factors that make it up, simply because they make sense. It is better to have a system that is intuitive and slightly flawed than one that makes no sense to the new player but is balanced to perfection.


Providing rational backing to a suggestion is important.

Would you like for me to provide additional gameplay backing then? (I thought I had, but it appears there wasn't very much - sorry!)

Digging in Water
Allows air pocket digging: This makes underwater exploration less interesting.
Digging underwater caverns: This is already limited by air, but it's not a really useful tactic. It allows you to make some secret passageways underwater, which would be lost functionality.

No Digging in Water
Water-Filled Moats/Other water-based defenses: Much more effective; where before you could simply dive into water and tunnel, that is no longer possible.
Floods: You can now very effectively kill people by means of flooding caves, basements.
Water traps: If you are dropped into a pool of water, you can be trapped there. (Perhaps digging time should only be lengthened, not having digging totally denied)


Uhh, I had more ideas, but I figure that's good for now.

edit It would turn water into a passive sort of "oh okay we're flooded this kind of sucks" material into a real resource that can be utilized for defensive and other purposes, while increasing the difficulty of exploring underwater.

I both agree and disagree. While not being able to dig underwater would be more realistic and increase the danger of travelling underwater, it would also make exploring long underwater cave systems near impossible. The idea of slowing (but not removing) underwater digging and attacking is probably the best.

Quote from ShadowDusk »

just want to post this
when it goes multiplayer what if a greafer floods your base then you would be trapped and die
this is why we need to dig underwater

But that would only happen if everyone built their bases underwater/underground.

With the digging-out-an-air-pocket scenario, it came to me that, in reality, air wouldn't spawn in the place you dug out, and would just be more water. But that goes into water pressure and everything... Water physics shouldn't really get involved until after there's finite water!

Quote from Levinous »

But that would only happen if everyone built their bases underwater/underground.

Yesss. Although an underground base is great because you can hide it much better, there is now the very real danger of flooding. While before an underground could be flooded, to your inconvenience, it can now be flooded to great loss.

Editing first post.

How about digging is just 50% slower in water. This will make it harder but not impossible to explore underwater caverns.

If there was a survival mode with people, or something of that type, you could simply make/find a deep valley, make a glass base, flood it. No one could get to it, and it would probably be too deep or too many glass layers to make it through.
If you got gold, then that would be even better.

I agree with all of the suggestions for all modes save creative. Digging, fighting, and shooting should all be severely inhibited whilst submerged. If you take the plunge wearing a hundred pounds of armor, you should sink to the bottom. The digging an air pocket thing definitely needs to be done away with. Talk of such a change disrupting "balance" or enjoyment is just foolish; water is dangerous and flooding is a disaster, and I think these properties should be accurately represented.

Perhaps some form of water breathing device should be implemented?