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[b]Currently I still strongly support this idea -- or a classless system. Most other things degenerate badly.[/b]
[b]Boring Introduction[/b][i] - Don't worry; it's short.[/i]
So I've been mulling over this and posting crap (well, just one post in one thread) or whatever. Then I figured I might as well post this as a counter to various suggestions. Actually, I think I've posted about this twice... well, that's fine. That's just fine.
[b]Summary[/b][i] - Ha! It doesn't exist. Just read the rest of the post! I'll love you forever![/i]
[b]Ministat System[/b][i] - My problems with it.[/i]
Let's say you have a system with a bunch of stats.
[Swimming]
[Speed]
[Acrobatics]
So those are some examples. I don't know about you -- but I find these kinds of things boring.
When you have stats you pop points into for minimal but adding-up benefits, everyone becomes SIMILAR.
Nobody wants to put ZERO points into something, if they have enough choice, so everyone puts, say, 5 points into everything and 5 more into a few stats.
Ew. [i]Please. If you disagree with me here, say so specifically. I'm sure some people like this kind of system; I'm just not convinced most people aren't just... used to it. Maybe everyone loves it! Perhaps you'll all hate my idea! Still, read on! Try, at least :3[/i]
I especially dislike this kind of system for Minecraft Survival should there ever be such a system at all. This system lends itself to adding small numbers to small things over a [b]long period of time[/b], not a possibly short Survival game, right? I don't want to be popped into a 'level up' menu every 5 minutes where I have to decide where to allocate my 5 points. If it is going to do this to me, I want it to be clear and simple, not trying to decide if I want to be a tiny bit faster, a tiny bit stronger, or a really really really tiny bit better at everything but so much so I won't even notice the difference.
That said, let's move on to...
[b]The Neat Idea[/b][i] - It's lacking a decent name at the moment. It'll come, I'm sure of it.[/i]
Instead of having some tiny little stat like
[Speed]
which does NOT differentiate between players very much at all, you will have
[Quick]
which is a serious up-front YES, YOU ARE FASTER THAN OTHER PEOPLE AND YOU'LL NOTICE IT A LOT.
Okay, you with me? ([i]'You following me, camera guy?' -Vince[/i] please forget I added that) This is what I want you to take a look at.
--- From here on I'll be making some random assumptions about the game system to make a point. Don't worry. These are examples. Nobody knows exactly what Survival will be like when it's 'done'!
INSTEAD of the above ministats (Swimming, Speed, Acrobatics), let's use the same name... but give different effects. Instead of giving each player 20 points to spend on 'stats', you have something like [b]FOUR[/b] points to spend on... [b]THESE THINGS[/b]:
[Swim]
[Gills!: Hold Breath 2x As Long]
[Quick]
[Jump]
Now take a look at those. And I mean really, really look. Compare them to the above stuff, in the Ministat section.
I don't know about you, but this appeals to me much more. That's why I'm making a post about it, right? Instead of number balancing and tossing around, you have these really clear-cut abilities. They have you thinking about WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.
(Even worse would be saying 'I want to swim', and therefore putting points into Strength for pushing yourself along, Endurance for holding your breath, Agility for moving through the water faster augh. If you want to swim with a system like this... you pick swimming stuff!)
[b]Even More Examples[/b][i] - if you like the idea, read these! If you hate it, feel free to skip on by and tell me WHY you hate it I'll appreciate it.[/i]
[Swim]
[Gills!: Hold Breath 2x As Long]
[Quick]
[Jump]
[Power Draw: +50% Damage with Bows]
[Marksman] (if they have some kind of built-in inaccuracy)
[Toughness]
[Strong]
[Fistfighter]Double![/b] Unarmed Melee Damage]
[Pack Mule: -50% Effect of Burden] (if carrying a lot of stuff is going to weigh you down... this will reduce that penalty)
[Backpack] (name sucks; and if this is even possible?)
[Farming]
[Smith]
[Constructor] (wood and stone could also be separate)
So as you can see, these things can range from enhanced stat bonuses (bonus to health, movement, or underwater breath) to fundamental ability-unlocking (which may or may not be included - it might be better to allow anyone to do these kinds of things?).
I'll stop here. So, at last...
[b]Feedback Please[/b][i] - and what I'd like to avoid.[/i]
Hey. Thanks for getting this far. Really! I mean it.
But... now it's your turn to post, right? Please? I'd like that a lot.
When you post, though...
Say something useful and helpful. 'This sucks, stats are better' is useless. I want to know why you're thinking this. I want to get INSIDE YOUR HEAD so I can RIP APART YOUR... nah. But I do want to get inside your head -
I want you to point out WEAKNESSES in this idea.
The DOWNSIDES to it.
And same goes if you like it! Not to say I don't like 'Oh hey, cool idea', as support is nice, but why? And do you have suggestions? Even if you like MOST of it but not a certain part of it, tell me so! And, again, constructively, not unhelpfully! Alright. That's about it.
[b]Buying This Stuff[/b][i] - Ha. Gotcha. There's more![/i]
I would imagine you to pick all of this right at the beginning of a... 'round' of Survival (or whatever).
Maybe you get more points if there are fewer people to balance stuff out?
Perhaps in single-player you can choose a 'difficulty' which decides how many points you get?
And YES - there can be leveling up too with this system. In fact, it's very easy: You get one point. Or depending, perhaps even two. Who knows? The real point is to get rid of the stats and things that you toss points into to see a tiny change.
[b]One More Thing[/b][i] - Hmm[/i]
Yes. There are games in which the ministat system works.
However from my impression of Minecraft, it is not the kind of game that would fare well with something like it. Thanks again, for reading.
And for posting, should you choose to post.
:smile.gif:
[b]Survival Test Inspired Examples[/b][i] - Probably easier to grasp than the other, above examples for a gamemode that doesn't exist yet![/i]
As you'll see, I have in here abilities that would fit in with the current Survival Test.
You [i]should[/i] be seeing abilities that range from
[b]Minor Effect, Always Useful[/b] - some nice 'staple' abilities
to
[b]Strong Effect, Occasionally Useful[/b] - some more specific abilities which some will prefer for their playing style
to
[b]Interesting and V. Strong Effect, Infrequently Useful[/b] - some interesting abilities that some will find very useful, and others will find absolutely worthless.
although currently I do not have too many from the last category. That is because there are not a ton of side-details to deal with in the current build. But I have at least one :smile.gif:
[Thick Skin: Any physical damage you sustain is reduced by 1/2 heart] [i](does not reduce effects of poison or drowning)[/i]
[Regeneration]
>> [I Am Wolverine: Every 20 seconds, you regain a 1/2 heart]
[Speedwalk]
[High Jump: Jumping height is increased] [i](Just enough to get up two blocks instead of up one?)[/i]
[Safe Fall: Falling damage is reduced] [i](I'm thinking reduced by 1 heart, then divided by two -- rounded down. Might be too powerful though.)[/i]
[Big Lungs: Each air bubble lasts three times as long]
[Swimmer]
[Long Grab: Resources can be collected from a longer distance away] [i](could be 3 times as far away or further)[/i]
[Miner]
>> [Fast Miner: Any material takes 50% of the time to dig through] [i](obviously, requires Miner and does NOT stack)[/i]
[Mycologist] [i](brown: 3 hearts instead of 2.5 // spotted: +1 heart instead of -1.5)[/i]
[Grand Slam: Your Melee attacks deal increased knockback]
[Power Draw: Your Arrows, when using a bow, deal 150% damage and fly faster] [i](and thus, fly further)[/i]
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Perhaps what would be better is that the total points ANY individual player can get will mean they can only ever acquire 50% of any of the abilities. (ie: 2 out of 4)
Yeah. Something like that! I was thinking that it could depend on the number of players, and... I don't know, perhaps the difficulty you've decided on.
Easy might give you enough to cover the total number of points 3 times over (amongst all the players)
Medium might only be enough to cover it twice...
I don't know; I think if that were the case people would hate huge games, because they wouldn't be able to choose much xD
Maybe something like... let's say there are 24 abilities total just as an example.
Easy: 12 points, +(3 - number of players) so on an empty server you'd get 15 points
Medium: 8 points, +#players bonus (so +1 if you have 2 other players, 1 other player means +2, and alone means +3)
Hard: 5 points +#players bonus
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Also perhaps the ability to restat when the next day/build phase rolls around just incase anyone has left/quit.
This way it still leaves in the "Class" element, but makes it VERY versatile and flexible to the playercount.
Maybe you can trade points around during various periods of time - or while you're sleeping, or something.
Might not want to make a player able to COMPLETELY restat or you could just spend one day running around and mining metal, then the next day switch over to crafting and fighting and then go hunting...
Perhaps...
4+ other players: Change 1 point overnight
2 or 3 other players: Change 2 points overnight
1 other players, or alone: Change 3 points overnight (... or 'overday' in the case of Zombies or whatever xD)
So if you have fewer players you also get that advantage because... well, frankly, you might need it? (depends on how the system works, of course. Might be fun if you were forced to get along without wood buildings or something because you decided other skills are more important)
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
and that's totally not cool
breakin' my rules (no feedback! sadface!)
and advertising your thread in my thread
>:0
Anyway, um, I had seen your thread. It's kind of what spurred me to action. _>
Anyway, I'm not actively attacking you. I'm just saying what I think's wrong with a system like that...
and showing a system like this which I think is better. (And more unique! Tongue sticks out here.)
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Key Difference:
Menen : stats
Drogen: abilities
Menens stats will in turn become abilities whose effectiveness depends on the quantity placed in the stat, but drogens cuts out the tedium and makes it 1pt = 1 ability. Theyre completely different takes on the same method, however it results in slightly different effects.
But you should change increased walking speed to running with the shift key, walking is good how it is.
And Gills seems kinda... weird. Just make it Oxygen.
Also, your only touching the surface of stats, My post went into weapons and such.
DroQen; it's a Q, not a G. It's okay, though. Everyone gets it wrong. It is... inevitable.
otherwise, you got it, Xzalander.
Menen, I said those were just examples, right? I'm not worried about the specifics of it just yet, although if I get enough support I could see making some kind of horrible, massive list of things carefully thought out. --- Anyway, I think I'd prefer a walk/run toggle to holding shift... maybe. What if you want to get somewhere far away?
'Gills!' is just a name. I am allowed to make fun names aren't I? D: Anyway, REAL gills means forever underwater! Blub blub blub.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
If an experience system were to be added and levels and stuff,
you wouldn't be able to get way above other people.
Probably... 4 or 5 more points if you play for a long time in that case? (maybe less on hard - or maybe that's... what makes it hard, I don't know ;p)
If you're alive for a long time though, you might have better equipment than other people.
People can still team up on you :biggrin.gif:
---> But you have the former right. Yep. That was the original intent anyway.
Finally: I don't imagine it's going to end up a deathmatch. Even if you're way more powerful, people will just be more likely to want to be your ally, right?
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Citricsquid vandalized this space. It has been sterilized ever since.
"Master Cheif! What did I tell you about humping posts?!"
My Steam ID Is: jjchrizzles
If I can't invest time in a character and have it get every bonus, I'd rather not have a system like this at all. It's why games like Morrowind and Oblivion appeal to me, they don't force you into a mold, and how awesome you are is only dependent on how much time you're willing to spend getting there.
Picking one perk per "level" or "point" is fine, I just want to be able to have them all, eventually.
"Don't be a smartass."
"More like smartgrass am I right?"
In Oblivion... you're by yourself. It's a single-player game, so -- sure, you can start a new game, but it's nice that you're allowed to build on your character... forever.
Minecraft survival's going to have multiplayer, and I can only imagine it will have it as a key aspect of the game. Additionally it's not the same as something like that - you don't have a character you simply build onto forever (at least as far as I'd imagine), since each game/round/whatever of survival/zombie survival/etc can only last so long.
You can give every perk a try, but not all in the same thing.
I think the interesting thing about this would be finding interesting combinations of perks. If you can eventually get every last one... well, for one thing, I don't think they should be balanced in that way.
I understand where you're coming from, jockmo, but again I think it's more appropriate... for a different kind of game entirely. Where Morrowind and Oblivion are meant for a truly vast single-player experience, Minecraft (looking mostly at the multiplayer aspect here) would be based upon survival and relying upon others to some extent. Teamwork and all that.
In Morrowind or Oblivion, there is no player-player dynamic. If you want to do something, you do it yourself. If you want to help someone out, you find a quest - but really you're not helping someone, you're just doing something yourself for a reward. Occasionally you get an ally or a summon but that's just a damage-dealing meatshield. Thus - of course you need to be able to do everything yourself, or you might feel cheated. Nobody wants a game saying 'NO, you CAN'T do this'. In Minecraft, though, the game will say, 'NO, get some friends to help'. Or in the case of free-for-all survival, 'NO, trade favours or supplies for what you need'. And I think that's a lot more interesting.
Final note ---> From what I've heard, I have pieced together a vague mental image of survival. There isn't really any 'investing time' in a character, nor is there any real 'eventually'. My focus isn't on my character, it's on what I do. Oh... um, wow. I just kind of realized that. But it's a good thing. Sandbox mode has you focusing on what you create and do -- I think Survival should be the same way. I would find no joy in playing over and over a character in Survival until I have everything and... honestly, am no longer special. I can just do everything. That's great and all until I realize there's less reason for me to do things with other people. This serves only to dampen the player-player mechanic.
---> When a player gets an ability it should have more of a 'hey, cool, WE can [farm/fight in pairs/get underwater] now' (introducing a new ability to the group), not 'I can do these things without needing to get help from someone else' (gaining an ability that can already be done by someone else).
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
It would also work for the large world portal thing. Because if you had say: 127 player mode (127 is the maximum amount of players protocol supports) it would be crowded for even a 1024x1024x64 map. So you could have 4 of them all side by side. (It also gave me a very neat idea about player houses in the cartoony-doctor-who-esque bigger on the inside than on the outside thing, set a port at a door and when you touch it, you load inside a 16x16 map of the house, and of course, you leave again and you spawn outside the door of the house. :biggrin.gif:).
We could have MORPG games in Minecraft :tongue.gif:
Well, what you suggest it does make more sense from a multiplayer aspect, and you've actually swayed me a bit to your view of things. You don't want everyone to be the same, and therefore must impose limits to just how good everyone can be. This will encourage more unique play styles.
Though your points make sense to me, I still believe there should be ways to retool your character if you're limited in what you can do. Not everyone will want to play in just rounds, and trust me on this, a lot of people will want a more persistent experience if your character progresses at all. There will be requests for longer, more substantial games. Not just "Oh we made this hut and ate this pig, then we met the end-game goal and won!".
Let me rethink my last statement, as what you've suggested does make more sense when you think about the actual mechanics of multiplayer gameplay.
If the players are given a choice out of many perks as they progress, but can not choose all of them, then there should be a way to "exchange" perks in favor of others. There should be a significant penalty for doing this, as to make sure the players don't exploit this system, switching out perks for others on the fly and whenever they wish. Perhaps they must be in a certain location, or have a number of expensive resources to give in exchange for a perk "redo". Perhaps they must give up experience in order to do this, granting them less perks than they had, and leaving them to gain the difference back.
This is all based on the assumption that ending survival will be optional, of course. I'm ninety-eight percent sure that some people will want to play longer than others, and I hope the gameplay mechanics can adjust to meet that need. It's not set in stone that survival will be short or long. Or that players will even have a system of roleplaying-style progression. But if it turns out that we have the option to play in a sort of "endless" mode, and there are RPG elements, I hope that players won't be completely stuck with their choices.
"Don't be a smartass."
"More like smartgrass am I right?"
I always got the impression that the endgoal is not something easy to achieve -- you don't just 'build a hut and eat a pig and meet the end-game goal', whatever it's going to be.
--> I couldn't find it again... oh well. I always thought of survival as a roguelike kind of challenge; you do have an endgoal that you're aiming towards, but it's not easy to get. MOST of the time you're playing and then you die. That's just my view on stuff, though ;p
-----> My view is well-founded, though! Notch was saying that ORIGINALLY his plan was to have no goal - just survive as long as you can while the game makes that difficult for you! So the end-goal should be something to aspire to, and fail many a time along the way... not something to simply decide 'hey, let's finish the game, guys'.
Something else...
So maybe we're all wasting our time :wink.gif:
Will never know until he comes and responds though!
Zuriki -> Restat potions are a possibility, yeah :0
A suggestion was made... somewhere up there...
Grant players the innate ability to restat while they sleep or something, although only one point at a time.
----> Just now I realized that might be overly complicated and not terribly clear to the players as to what's going on. A restat potion (maybe you make a '1 point restat' potion that is somewhat expensive but easy to make, and then from there you can make a '2 point restat', '4 point restat', and then 'full restat', which as you ramp up get more and more difficult to find materials for? or something.)
edit my sentence was interrupted by my huuuge brackets.
A restat potion is probably a good way to go. Pop players back into that menu, and it should be instantly clear!
Sticking players with their choices I can understand being not optimal for some people.
I could imagine every last ability being given two tiers...
Even though that's moving towards making everyone the same, the tiers could be made 'topheavy' to make it optimal NOT to spread your points out evenly.
For example;
[Fistfighter] [Awesome Brawler: +50% Unarmed Melee Damage]
The above two don't stack. However, you can see a clear benefit in getting to the second one instead of just getting the first tier of two different areas... jack-of-all-trades is allowed but not greatly benefited.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).