Water and flooding are things that have been buzzing around my mind for quite a while now. The water in this game fills up canyons in the most unrealistic way possible, and flooding currently is the about the best griefing method a single person can do. This suggestion is an attempt to solve both problems.
Simply put, water has too much freedom in how it duplicates. Not only can it create water on five sides, all of its offspring can immediately do the same. To remedy this, I suggest that a more restricted water block be added called a "falling" water block. Every water block spawned onto the map would always start off as this type of water. Falling blocks look exactly the same regular water blocks, except they can only spawn water underneath the bottom face, like if it were "falling". When a falling water block reaches the ground, it is then promoted into a regular water block. The normal water block then spawns falling blocks all around it, and the cycle repeats. (Note: Regular water blocks are considered to be "ground" so the blocks on top eventually become regular water blocks as well.)
--For those who favor a more methodical description, here's how I think it works in programming--
*Falling water is spawned
~Next tic
*Falling water checks for what's below it. It's air: create falling block below it.
~Next tic
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's falling water: do nothing.
*Second falling water checks for what's below it. It's ground: turn into first regular water.
~Next tic
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's falling water: do nothing.
*First regular water checks for what's below it. It's ground: do nothing.
*First regular water checks its sides. It's air: spawn new falling water.
~Next tic
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's regular water: turn into second regular water
*First regular water checks for what's around it. It's ground, it's falling water: do nothing.
*New falling water checks for what's below it. It's ground: turn into more regular water.
--Feel free to take a break if your head hurts. I've been told that I'm not the best at explaining things.--
In any case, this change would accomplish several goals:
1) Water 'realism' - Realism has always been an iffy word for video games. When I say realism, I mean that this change makes water fill a hole from the bottom up instead of from the top down. It's not that important of a change, but having water head horizontal first, then downwards was backwards to me, like if gravity was upwards and we jumped downwards. However, my attempt at making it 'real' breaks down if you try to fill an area with a stack of water instead of a trickle. For example, if you attempted to fill a pool with 5 blocks of water stacked on each other (don't know why you would), it would immediately create a new column of falling water to make you think it would gush out quickly, but then it decides to slow down. I guess silliness can never be completely taken out when using infinite water, but filling the hole from the bottom instead of covering it like a carpet is a step in the right direction.
2) Longer to fill/flood - Before, water could move vertically and horizontally simultaneously. Now that water is spending time changing between those two modes, it will inevitably travel slower than before. This allows players a better chance of stopping a flood when it occurs, and it lets players take the time to enjoy the sight of their oasis or pond to fill. However, Notch himself wanted water to flow quickly, and this suggestion is doing the exact opposite; in fact, water travelling horizontally would move only at half speed! (One tick to move, another to convert) To fix this, if a falling block spawned to the side of a regular block would be placed on top of non-water ground, then it spawns as a regular block instead. This would let small streams that players tend to make flow quickly, and it could also warn diggers of a larger flood incoming, but it might be overdoing it for programming.
3) Sponges more like water vacuums - Sponges are pretty handy when cleaning up a mess, but they're not very good at preventing it. If you place them out in the open, their tacky sponginess stands out in the stone and dirt making them easy to find and delete. Hiding the eyesores is preferred but loses you valuable coverage, meaning a single miscalculation in spongematics will give you the net result of a flooded network of interconnected caverns. By changing how water works, sponges become more effective, visible or hidden. In order for falling water to convert into regular water, it must be touching ground of some sort. So, if there are sponges preventing the floor from being touched by water, the water cannot advance at all, unlike before where water would simply weave and ebb above and around the sponge into the places you're trying to protect. It also lets diggers make larger entrances (who seriously likes 1x2?) without sacrificing safety.
3b) Tall waterfalls - With this change, you can have a narrow waterfall of any height by using only one sponge! Hurray! (If you understand how, you successfully understood my suggestion, are more than qualified to evaluate it, and get a cookie. If you don't, you're still qualified, but no cookie.)
This is a long suggestion, but unfortunately I don't have a pretty picture this time to make it clear or enjoyable. If there's any part I need to explain better, say so. I do really believe this idea can help, and I want to clearly show what I'm trying to say.
So ultimately what you're going for here is water that will fall into a void and fill it (which is the end result now) - but you want it to fill from the bottom up for a more realistic effect.
I like the idea of more realistic water, but the advent of finite water will make this a moot change. Of course, I have no idea how far away finite water is, so if we assume that it's a very long way off then this suggestion becomes much more desirable.
I'm on the fence. I both like and dislike this depending on the circumstance.
I second this. I think I'd rather this than finite water, anyway. And contrary to liq's claim, this should be immensely easier than finite water - notch just would need to alter the water calculations so that it spreads horizontal only if there's something other than air below it. That's a single if statement, liq. A single one.
I second this. I think I'd rather this than finite water, anyway. And contrary to liq's claim, this should be immensely easier than finite water - notch just would need to alter the water calculations so that it spreads horizontal only if there's something other than air below it. That's a single if statement, liq. A single one.
That would make a tile in the middle of a waterfall spread to the sides, as there is water below it. I'm not sure how finite water will work but I do like Kirbycode's idea.
I second this. I think I'd rather this than finite water, anyway. And contrary to liq's claim, this should be immensely easier than finite water - notch just would need to alter the water calculations so that it spreads horizontal only if there's something other than air below it. That's a single if statement, liq. A single one.
That would make a tile in the middle of a waterfall spread to the sides, as there is water below it. I'm not sure how finite water will work but I do like Kirbycode's idea.
Yea, missed that. Just have it be anything but air or water. Or not. It thinking about it, this would prevent a hole from filling up with water, it'd just have a single tile at its bottom. Perhaps it should just be air. Whichever would work, I guess.
i've done quite a bit of thinking on the water physics reciently, and i'm pretty sure your way will still look unrealistic, it will build up a weird expanding column of water to the beginning of the falling water before it fills up the void. the only way to fix that is to remove:
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's regular water: turn into second regular water
that way the falling water will only fill the void to 1 unit about where it hits ground and it would look perfect.
I 100% agree with this though,letting water drain over a sloping landscape would look amazing, and the best part is there would be signifigantly less lag in large floods because it would fill it slower rather than a huge wave of water blocks
The idea is pointless from a programming perspective. It'd take about the same amount of effort to implement finite water.
I have a hard time believing that. You see, I've been under the impression that the water blocks act independently from each other. In other words, each block has the same checklist it runs through regardless of the location of the other water blocks. Having a set of rules each finite block of water follows seems to be much harder: for example, if a griefer drills a small hole into a lake that ends into a player-made cavern 6 blocks high, how does the water disperse? What makes the water blocks move horizontally on ground, on or off other water, and down a cliff side? Does water trickle, stay as a uniform body, or both? Does having larger source horizontally or vertically make the water fill an area faster? Can you end up with lakes that have uneven water levels? You would need to address (or at least consider) these issues and possibilities with a single rule set that would not create strange results in most circumstances. In fact, while typing this, I just noticed another one of these strange results with my suggestion, and I only changed three aspects of how water works! Imagine how many rules you would need to keep track of with falling water.
Quote from Dave »
i've done quite a bit of thinking on the water physics reciently, and i'm pretty sure your way will still look unrealistic, it will build up a weird expanding column of water to the beginning of the falling water before it fills up the void. the only way to fix that is to remove:
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's regular water: turn into second regular water
that way the falling water will only fill the void to 1 unit about where it hits ground and it would look perfect.
You need that rule so that water can fill up the hole up to the level of its source. Otherwise, only the bottom floor fills while a 1 column waterfall suspends itself in midair.
As for unrealism, well, it's better than none at all. It expands a bit like a pyramid.
If this were normal water, this cross-sectional area would've been filled by the fifth picture, not to mention that the area would already appear nearly filled due to the event being watched from above. I fear that the flow of water if this idea were implemented would be painfully slow instead of peacefully slow.
I 100% agree with this though,letting water drain over a sloping landscape would look amazing, and the best part is there would be signifigantly less lag in large floods because it would fill it slower rather than a huge wave of water blocks.
So true, so true.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm surprised you all can easily pick up what I'm saying. :biggrin.gif:
this idea would work so much better if there was a drain block that would keep the water at the level it is currently at despite water entering it! :tongue.gif:
Quote from liq3 »
The idea is pointless from a programming perspective. It'd take about the same amount of effort to implement finite water.
finite water is impossible in this game, what would happen if you emptied a 3 x 2 x 2(width x height x depth) pond into a 4 x 2 x 2 pond?
this idea would work so much better if there was a drain block that would keep the water at the level it is currently at despite water entering it! lol
Quote from liq3 »
The idea is pointless from a programming perspective. It'd take about the same amount of effort to implement finite water.
finite water is impossible in this game, what would happen if you emptied a 3 x 2 x 2(width x height x depth) pond into a 4 x 2 x 2 pond?
Finite does not mean the amount of water is fixed. It simply means it is not infinite. It would do the same thing water does here... continue to move through the Earth until it can find a resting point, evaporates or is absorbed.
Hell, I'm for this idea even if we get finite water later on, water flows a lot... cleaner? this way, and it's not to hard to program really. at least not as hard as finite water would be, It' make floods even cooler to watch with out slowing down water /to/ much, being in large floods it's going to flow somewhat the same speed becuase instead of copying it's self in 3D space, it has to start from the bottom first.
Wave's of water will look quite epic =D
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<TrueWolves> That's what I meant Iguana, I'm like an Extra+, to just fill in tiny cracks... right?
<Iguana> YUS. <Iguana> BUT WE NEED YOU
<Iguana> You are like...Billy Mays Mighty Putty. (trademarked)
IRC quote on the Minecraft Machinima
If you make a waterfall, and theres no source feeding into the top of the fall, the waterfall will dry out. The water level will decrease.
Or. If a single water block falls, it will contine to move downward untill it finds a resting place. If it doesnt in a certain amount of time it will dissapear
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Quote from Kilgallon »
Quote from MomizerRox »
Quote from ZarroTsu »
Creepa stole ma bike. [SSSS]
Sooo... when's the next seecret Friday update topic going up? =[
That's the goal for limited water, I'd look at the total suggestions list and Dev log so you get a general idea of what's already been planed.
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<TrueWolves> That's what I meant Iguana, I'm like an Extra+, to just fill in tiny cracks... right?
<Iguana> YUS. <Iguana> BUT WE NEED YOU
<Iguana> You are like...Billy Mays Mighty Putty. (trademarked)
IRC quote on the Minecraft Machinima
This isn't falling water, it's just water affected by gravity.
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Citricsquid vandalized this space. It has been sterilized ever since.
"Master Cheif! What did I tell you about humping posts?!"
My Steam ID Is: jjchrizzles
this idea would work so much better if there was a drain block that would keep the water at the level it is currently at despite water entering it! :tongue.gif:
Quote from liq3 »
The idea is pointless from a programming perspective. It'd take about the same amount of effort to implement finite water.
finite water is impossible in this game, what would happen if you emptied a 3 x 2 x 2(width x height x depth) pond into a 4 x 2 x 2 pond?
There's 3 options. Make it evaporate, make it expand, or do nothing. The 3rd will simply result in the water moving around a ton. I'm swaying to expansion personally, to avoid making sponges useless (and possible other issues).
Also, yeh, this would only take a single if statement. Thing is, this would just be an upsidedown version of skybox water flooding the map. It's barley an improvement.
Simply put, water has too much freedom in how it duplicates. Not only can it create water on five sides, all of its offspring can immediately do the same. To remedy this, I suggest that a more restricted water block be added called a "falling" water block. Every water block spawned onto the map would always start off as this type of water. Falling blocks look exactly the same regular water blocks, except they can only spawn water underneath the bottom face, like if it were "falling". When a falling water block reaches the ground, it is then promoted into a regular water block. The normal water block then spawns falling blocks all around it, and the cycle repeats. (Note: Regular water blocks are considered to be "ground" so the blocks on top eventually become regular water blocks as well.)
--For those who favor a more methodical description, here's how I think it works in programming--
*Falling water is spawned
~Next tic
*Falling water checks for what's below it. It's air: create falling block below it.
~Next tic
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's falling water: do nothing.
*Second falling water checks for what's below it. It's ground: turn into first regular water.
~Next tic
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's falling water: do nothing.
*First regular water checks for what's below it. It's ground: do nothing.
*First regular water checks its sides. It's air: spawn new falling water.
~Next tic
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's regular water: turn into second regular water
*First regular water checks for what's around it. It's ground, it's falling water: do nothing.
*New falling water checks for what's below it. It's ground: turn into more regular water.
--Feel free to take a break if your head hurts. I've been told that I'm not the best at explaining things.--
In any case, this change would accomplish several goals:
1) Water 'realism' - Realism has always been an iffy word for video games. When I say realism, I mean that this change makes water fill a hole from the bottom up instead of from the top down. It's not that important of a change, but having water head horizontal first, then downwards was backwards to me, like if gravity was upwards and we jumped downwards. However, my attempt at making it 'real' breaks down if you try to fill an area with a stack of water instead of a trickle. For example, if you attempted to fill a pool with 5 blocks of water stacked on each other (don't know why you would), it would immediately create a new column of falling water to make you think it would gush out quickly, but then it decides to slow down. I guess silliness can never be completely taken out when using infinite water, but filling the hole from the bottom instead of covering it like a carpet is a step in the right direction.
2) Longer to fill/flood - Before, water could move vertically and horizontally simultaneously. Now that water is spending time changing between those two modes, it will inevitably travel slower than before. This allows players a better chance of stopping a flood when it occurs, and it lets players take the time to enjoy the sight of their oasis or pond to fill. However, Notch himself wanted water to flow quickly, and this suggestion is doing the exact opposite; in fact, water travelling horizontally would move only at half speed! (One tick to move, another to convert) To fix this, if a falling block spawned to the side of a regular block would be placed on top of non-water ground, then it spawns as a regular block instead. This would let small streams that players tend to make flow quickly, and it could also warn diggers of a larger flood incoming, but it might be overdoing it for programming.
3) Sponges more like water vacuums - Sponges are pretty handy when cleaning up a mess, but they're not very good at preventing it. If you place them out in the open, their tacky sponginess stands out in the stone and dirt making them easy to find and delete. Hiding the eyesores is preferred but loses you valuable coverage, meaning a single miscalculation in spongematics will give you the net result of a flooded network of interconnected caverns. By changing how water works, sponges become more effective, visible or hidden. In order for falling water to convert into regular water, it must be touching ground of some sort. So, if there are sponges preventing the floor from being touched by water, the water cannot advance at all, unlike before where water would simply weave and ebb above and around the sponge into the places you're trying to protect. It also lets diggers make larger entrances (who seriously likes 1x2?) without sacrificing safety.
3b) Tall waterfalls - With this change, you can have a narrow waterfall of any height by using only one sponge! Hurray! (If you understand how, you successfully understood my suggestion, are more than qualified to evaluate it, and get a cookie. If you don't, you're still qualified, but no cookie.)
This is a long suggestion, but unfortunately I don't have a pretty picture this time to make it clear or enjoyable. If there's any part I need to explain better, say so. I do really believe this idea can help, and I want to clearly show what I'm trying to say.
I like the idea of more realistic water, but the advent of finite water will make this a moot change. Of course, I have no idea how far away finite water is, so if we assume that it's a very long way off then this suggestion becomes much more desirable.
I'm on the fence. I both like and dislike this depending on the circumstance.
Relic of a bygone age.
That would make a tile in the middle of a waterfall spread to the sides, as there is water below it. I'm not sure how finite water will work but I do like Kirbycode's idea.
Script to edit Minecraft maps with Paint3D
Ain't no party like a [SSSS] party 'cause a [SSSS] party [VV] [tnt]!
Yea, missed that. Just have it be anything but air or water. Or not. It thinking about it, this would prevent a hole from filling up with water, it'd just have a single tile at its bottom. Perhaps it should just be air. Whichever would work, I guess.
*First falling water checks for what's below it. It's regular water: turn into second regular water
that way the falling water will only fill the void to 1 unit about where it hits ground and it would look perfect.
I 100% agree with this though,letting water drain over a sloping landscape would look amazing, and the best part is there would be signifigantly less lag in large floods because it would fill it slower rather than a huge wave of water blocks
I have a hard time believing that. You see, I've been under the impression that the water blocks act independently from each other. In other words, each block has the same checklist it runs through regardless of the location of the other water blocks. Having a set of rules each finite block of water follows seems to be much harder: for example, if a griefer drills a small hole into a lake that ends into a player-made cavern 6 blocks high, how does the water disperse? What makes the water blocks move horizontally on ground, on or off other water, and down a cliff side? Does water trickle, stay as a uniform body, or both? Does having larger source horizontally or vertically make the water fill an area faster? Can you end up with lakes that have uneven water levels? You would need to address (or at least consider) these issues and possibilities with a single rule set that would not create strange results in most circumstances. In fact, while typing this, I just noticed another one of these strange results with my suggestion, and I only changed three aspects of how water works! Imagine how many rules you would need to keep track of with falling water.
You need that rule so that water can fill up the hole up to the level of its source. Otherwise, only the bottom floor fills while a 1 column waterfall suspends itself in midair.
As for unrealism, well, it's better than none at all. It expands a bit like a pyramid.
If this were normal water, this cross-sectional area would've been filled by the fifth picture, not to mention that the area would already appear nearly filled due to the event being watched from above. I fear that the flow of water if this idea were implemented would be painfully slow instead of peacefully slow.
So true, so true.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm surprised you all can easily pick up what I'm saying. :biggrin.gif:
finite water is impossible in this game, what would happen if you emptied a 3 x 2 x 2(width x height x depth) pond into a 4 x 2 x 2 pond?
Finite does not mean the amount of water is fixed. It simply means it is not infinite. It would do the same thing water does here... continue to move through the Earth until it can find a resting point, evaporates or is absorbed.
Ain't no party like a [SSSS] party 'cause a [SSSS] party [VV] [tnt]!
Wave's of water will look quite epic =D
<Iguana> YUS. <Iguana> BUT WE NEED YOU
<Iguana> You are like...Billy Mays Mighty Putty. (trademarked)
IRC quote on the Minecraft Machinima
Like.
If you make a waterfall, and theres no source feeding into the top of the fall, the waterfall will dry out. The water level will decrease.
Or. If a single water block falls, it will contine to move downward untill it finds a resting place. If it doesnt in a certain amount of time it will dissapear
<Iguana> YUS. <Iguana> BUT WE NEED YOU
<Iguana> You are like...Billy Mays Mighty Putty. (trademarked)
IRC quote on the Minecraft Machinima
Citricsquid vandalized this space. It has been sterilized ever since.
"Master Cheif! What did I tell you about humping posts?!"
My Steam ID Is: jjchrizzles
Nobody likes gravity.
I like gravity!
Gravity just doesnt like me. :sad.gif:
I want to fly!
But seriously.
This is a brilliant suggestion!
I second/ third/ whatever number I'm on now it!
:happy.gif:
There's 3 options. Make it evaporate, make it expand, or do nothing. The 3rd will simply result in the water moving around a ton. I'm swaying to expansion personally, to avoid making sponges useless (and possible other issues).
Also, yeh, this would only take a single if statement. Thing is, this would just be an upsidedown version of skybox water flooding the map. It's barley an improvement.
Anyway I support this.